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Poll
Question: Should we reinstate the Red Zone for Lap 1?  (Voting closed: May 09, 2016, 09:52:58 PM +0100)
Yes - 14 (58.3%)
No - 10 (41.7%)
Total Voters: 24

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Author Topic: S30 - Red Zone  (Read 2826 times)
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Robert Fleurke
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« on: April 18, 2016, 09:52:58 PM +0100 »

Should we reinstate the Red Zone for Lap 1? It will give the moderators slightly more work, but it might help to have clean(er) starts.
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JonnyO
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« Reply #1 on: April 20, 2016, 03:41:33 AM +0100 »

 Wink
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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #2 on: April 20, 2016, 10:00:07 AM +0100 »

For the record yes I voted no.

But whatever the outcome of the vote, please please can we implement the largest possible spacing for all grids in all races. It simply does not matter that the guys further back cannot see the flag. What is important is that the guys who qualify up front get maximum advantage and everyone including the guys further back have more room to react to slow starts ahead and fast starts from behind.
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maddog
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« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2016, 11:54:56 AM +0100 »

Longer grids have been used, and caused larger speed differences at the first braking zone.  It was more difficult for anyone getting a faster, or slower start than average.
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Robert Fleurke
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« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2016, 12:18:16 PM +0100 »

To me loose grids with more distance between cars should be safer in theory. It's simple maths. Same amount of objects in more space will less likely to hit eachother. However Martin has a point the cars behind will arrive with more speed at the first corner mostly. It is also the reason often cars behind the pole man will have the fastest first lap (since they have more starting speed at S/F line). It depends on the track characteristic, but the most important is people not pulling of risky moves on cold tires.

Surely we can't dictate how one should drive, and one can make up places after a start, it's just using your head and not pulling of risky moves...

As for the Red Zone, I'd like to have it back, as it is a reminder to all to take extra care after the start.


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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2016, 07:54:17 PM +0100 »

Longer grids have been used, and caused larger speed differences at the first braking zone.  It was more difficult for anyone getting a faster, or slower start than average.

I hear what you and Robert are saying but people should not be penalised for making a good start when all too often it is those ahead of them that are causing the problems off the line. You simply cannot expect people to be applying their brakes when the flag drops, its pedal to the metal or you might as well not be racing. As for the first corner, approaching at a reasonable speed, on a reasonable line, giving space for others, is the least we should expect from all drivers. As for problems at the first corner that's what the incident report/moderation process can be used for by those who wish to use it. But, in my opinion, drivers routinely penalised for rear end shunts and moving sideways at the start are being unfairly treated when the driver/s at fault is clearly ahead of them and this is why I favour the widest spaced grids possible to avoid such start line incidents.

None of this is a show stopper for me just sharing some thoughts and always interested in others points of view.
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maddog
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« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2016, 08:33:48 PM +0100 »

The race start is the most dangerous time in a race.  If it's not dangerous, it's not racing.  Papyrus decided we could handle 3 and 4 abreast!   We're not so young and quick with reflexes as F1 professionals,  so grids are spread out for we Amateurs.

More drivers show up for a practice race or 2, than in past years.  A good time to check what works, and what hurts at the start.  It ain't always going to be perfect, you can't make the other guy behave well, but it's half way realistic ATM. scooter
« Last Edit: April 20, 2016, 08:37:09 PM +0100 by maddog » Logged
EvilClive
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« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2016, 10:22:51 PM +0100 »

for what they are worth, my thoughts on the red zone/1st corner/ spread grids.

As has been mentioned we do GPL because we want to race.
Ergo, we are trying to pass ALL cars in front and that intent is there from the moment the flag drops. I think there are basically 2 different approaches to starts. Either you "go for it" and try to gain as many places as you can before T1, or you opt for the long game and allow others to make their mistakes and drop out allowing you to gain places as the race progresses.
Option 1 will yield the biggest rewards IF you can avoid contact and you have the pace to run with the aliens.
Option 2 will almost always reward you with a points finish in a Pro race. The only problem is that with the level of competition on the front rows of the Pro grids and the consistant pace, it is unlikely ( but not impossible)that you will actually win a race.

 Whether we have wide spaced grids or 4 abreast, I don't think it makes any difference. If you give a competitive driver more space between himself and the car ahead, he will use that space to go faster. Until the gaps close and the possibility of contact increases to the point that he has to back off in the interests of self preservation.
If there is clear space between your car and the car in front ( wide spaced grids) you want to close that gap as soon as possible, that is what racing is all about.
I believe that is why wide spaced grids actually suck in cars from the rear. Those cars further back have a longer run to T1 and can attain a higher speed, and there is that big gap to close . The result is a condensing of cars at the first corner as the front rows brake and all the gaps close up . All of this gets far worse when a car at the front bogs down and is slow to get going.
Then we have the "flutter of a butterfly's wings in China" chaos syndrome, as all cars behind have to adjust their lines and speed. The single car that is slow away sets up a huge potential for carnage at T1 because the wide spaced grid ceases to be of any benefit when all the gaps suddenly close.

If we were all "perfect" drivers all of this discussion would be academic, because we would not have accidents. Fortunately almost all of us are human and make mistakes ( there are one or two members whose DNA needs to be checked!) which is what keeps things interesting.
If we start races 4 abreast as per 1967 and the original Papyrus game, there is a very concious effort by drivers to stay straight and controlled, but the smallest error by a single car in such close formation WILL cause mayhem. This tends to happen before T1, but the result is much the same, cars are taken out of the race almost before it starts.

In short, whatever grid setup you have does not affect the potential carnage at T1, it is the awareness and self control of the drivers that will ultimately make the difference. GPL has terrible blind spots when in close proximity and that does not help our cause here.
I firmly believe that it is driver awareness that needs to improve and that will have far more impact than any fiddling with grids or gaps.

It is no coincidence that the top drivers manage to avoid hitting each other. They have learnt to use all info available to know where the cars around them are and to anticipate when a car is making a rash dive down the inside and leave room.

Moderating and penalties should be used to focus drivers attention on any major and avoidable mistakes, so that hopefully they learn and avoid doing it next time.


Nursey has arrived with my medication and my straightjacket so I am off to bed....rant over.




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Ronniepeterson
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« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2016, 09:05:54 AM +0100 »

I do not disagree Clive but my concern is not T1 but the very start when the flag drops. In my opinion the grid spacing used at UKGPL is wrong. If the red zone returns and the spacing is not increased then drivers slamming into the back of the car ahead when the flag drops should not be penalised.
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« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2016, 10:06:36 AM +0100 »

IMO the best way to avoid this start melees is to use the original narrow grids!

Whenever this happened accidentialy, there were less problems during the starts.
All drivers behaved much more disciplined until it was sorted.

The wider the grids the more gaps are opened where a fast starter will put his nose in!

The only way to avoid any carnage would be a single file grid with no passing in a defined zone, what nobody wants...
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Robert Fleurke
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« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2016, 11:36:43 AM +0100 »

IMO we need to stick with 1x1 loose grids, and depending on the grid 8-10m spacing between cars. These loose grids have been developed for online use, for good reasons!  And when you do an avoidable rear end shunt at the start, you will be penalized, of course. When you have a better start than the car in front, but there is no room, you simply have to check up...

The Red Zone is just a reminder to take extra care after he start. But you can pass when there is room. The cars in front will concentrate on the front, and the cars behind can't always assume the car in front is aware what's happening behind...

In the end it's mostly in the driver's head, the red mist. It's no coincidence some drivers are hardly involved in , or causing incidents. We all make mistakes, some just more than others Wink
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EvilClive
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« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2016, 12:02:29 PM +0100 »

The responses to my post appear to agree that juggling with the grid spacing has no benefit unless drivers adjust their behaviour.

Robert makes a good point about wider spacing giving the following car the time and space to go around a slow starter in front, but even that driver must be looking for other cars coming from behind who may have had an even quicker start. So drivers adapt their start tactics to suit the space and time available.
Even in today's F1 races, cars  fail on the grid or make a bad start and there is a melee at T1 with carbon fibre and the occasional wheel scattered in the gravel, so this is not a problem unique to simracing.

On a close grid, you cannot simply mash the gas and assume that the car in front will move off as fast as you do. I find that I need to take a 0.5 sec wait to be sure that car ahead is going before I commit. What I have found is that when I do allow an extra 10mtr gap to develop on a tight grid I am able to accelerate into that space and sometimes pass the car ahead simply because he has had to back off as he gets too close to the car directly in front of him. So, there are pro's and con's for both.

I still maintain that whatever grids we use, it is still 90% down to the drivers ( or maybe just one driver?) as to whether there is carnage before, or at, T1.
I guess that  what I am trying to get across is that IMHO, whatever system we use there WILL be contact and DNF's at T1 and all we can do is select the option that most members feel suits their driving style and allows them the biggest chance of getting through T1 unscathed.
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bernie
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« Reply #12 on: April 24, 2016, 12:19:27 PM +0100 »

IMO the best way to avoid this start melees is to use the original narrow grids!

Whenever this happened accidentialy, there were less problems during the starts.
All drivers behaved much more disciplined until it was sorted.

The wider the grids the more gaps are opened where a fast starter will put his nose in!

The only way to avoid any carnage would be a single file grid with no passing in a defined zone, what nobody wants...

Agree fully with this , wider grids have caused more problems than they have fixed .

One of the worst scenario ( and we have seen plenty examples of it ) is the faster driver who misses qually , arrives late on the grid , starts from the back and hopes to make up 20 places as soon as the flag drops.
With a wide grid its too easy for him to barge his way through until he meets a log jam ( possibly unsighted ) ahead and now carrying so much speed he'se bound to cause problems . having a closer bunched grid would not stop this completely but would make the speed differential between cars less so any incidents caused would be less disasterous  .

I am also in favour of reinstating the red zone !

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Robert Fleurke
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« Reply #13 on: April 24, 2016, 01:41:06 PM +0100 »

The responses to my post appear to agree that juggling with the grid spacing has no benefit unless drivers adjust their behaviour.

I still maintain that whatever grids we use, it is still 90% down to the drivers ( or maybe just one driver?) as to whether there is carnage before, or at, T1.

Absolutely true. So we need to make a compromise of less objects in the same space, and not too much spacing since the cars at the back will arrive with more speed at T1. That's the reason 1x1 loose grids have been developed 15 years ago, based on experience and ratio.

In the end it's the drivers that cause the incidents, not the sort of grids. I'm wary to reinvent the wheel, using narrow grids. That will obviously lead to more contacts having more objects in less space. We should avoid to change something which is good and tested for years...it's simply the mindset of drivers that lead to incidents, apart from the occasional honest mistake...
« Last Edit: April 24, 2016, 01:43:32 PM +0100 by Robert Fleurke » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: April 24, 2016, 07:49:56 PM +0100 »

Cars remaining on the startline after the flag drops are not helpful, although it happens in real life too.  Motors can and do explode occasionally.  Happily, GPL cars do not stall. 

I would guess a reason for motor munching, is the habit of many here to cling to a 2016 starting technique. The 1960's did not have launch control or rev limiters.  I'm not one of our faster pilots, but  make more places than I loose by getting historical, and never explode unless I'm very annoyed. Grin 
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