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All members welcome.

Practice: 20:10 (5 mins)
Qualifying: 20:15 (20 mins)
Race: 20:35 (20 laps = 40 mins)

Track: Donnington Park 2004 (GP).
Weather: 50% Wet

Cars allowed: Triumph TR4 only.
Time of Day Setting: 12:00
Start: STANDING

Server: [PnG] UKGTL Test
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

Notes:
(1) It's best if all drivers can make sure they are connected before the Qualifying session as drivers on track during qualifying will not see cars that join after they are on track until they go back to the garage.
(2) Please make sure you are fully aware of the SimRacing.org.uk Rules (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=7).
(3) You will need to install Power and Glory v2 from here (http://www.gtlw.co.uk/) and enable terrain patch.

Excellent, TR4's only, I'll definately be there! We could be doing with a skin pack just with different colours in it though!

 :( Nooooooooooooooooooo, I'm working!

A Grid full of TR4s at Donington in the wet sounds a right scream  :)

Only problem is i think i may be out that night  :'( will do my best to get home in time.

Also, i thought we were using these pre-season 'fun races' to test the whole spectrum of cars against each other to performance guage them ? Why not throw a few of the little cars into the mix to compare?..ie the elites etc. I can try and run some laptime tests early week if you want  :-\

Of course the decision is yours alone :angel:

Gawd MJ, weren't you arguing the very opposite last week  :) Feels like we are getting grips with these cars pace now but any extra laptimes/comparisons will be greatly received. Wet times will be especially welcome.

 

Oh bum, didn't notice the 'wet', just ran 12 laps in the dry using Paul's Valenica setup and did 57s, best 57.5 but that's completely irrelevant.  Waa, wet setup, err, what to change?  Springs and brake bias I guess.

This whole setup stuff is baffling - Madd's description of spring adjustments at Valencia  ??? Very confused now.  And why does every P&G setup have positive toe at the front - I thought you always use negative toe (e.g. toe out) at the front, positive at the rear?

Saying all that, with Paul's setup and lowered gears the TR4 was really driveable (in the dry) at Donny.

 ;D

What does 50% wet mean? Is it only raining for half the race? or is the rain constant but only half as heavy as it could be?

Best I've managed is a 2:02:9 which was almost enough to get pole with AI at 120% (2:02:8 ). I'd imagine others will go faster but hopefully not by much!

Tony its the level of wetness, not completely flooded but bloody wet! it will be raining all the time.

Took the dry setup and softened the springs by ten (somethings, bushels of wheat perhaps) and moved brakes 3% forwards and I'm around 2:01, best of 2:00.8.

Possibly even nicer to drive than in the dry, easier to get the tail out.  I just feel sorry for the animated driver, he must be getting very wet.  :(

Thanks matey.

So when you guys are practising with the AI what settings do you use for the AI?

i use 110% to 115% to simulate the sort of laptimes the guys on here get.

And, Ginsters, dont mind me, im just glad we are using this fine mod  :)...just thought that based on your argument last week, the plan was try as many cars out as possible  :P

Slightly OT Steve, try a soft front hard rear type setup at valencia in the E-Type, then try the setup I've uploaded to the SROU online folder, see if you find any difference.
I will have a go at some times for this race for comparison purposes.
The default setups are slower but easier to drive as far as i can tell, lots of understeer and roll, nice and 'safe'.

Video of last two PnG tests.
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=57TWTRST (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=57TWTRST)

Yes, will do soon, hopefully will improve my understanding of P&G setups.  :)

arrrgh you filmed my spin :P

but also my fight with Tinman hehe, little bump at the end but he still made it :)

Is the server set for this? I'd like to try some laps tonight.  :)

TT

Dont know whether this is a big issue or not (probably not) but found this on the P&G Tr4 thread:-

"While we are at it, the parameters in the *.car files also need the following change to make the fuel gauges read correctly

FuelVolumeRange=(0.0, 74.0, 210.0, 690.0)

The existing parameters refer to the GTL model which used Fuel Pressure rather than Fuel Volume "

We would all have to edit that line i think, including the server, otherwise you would get 'possible cheat' messages. Probably best to leave it alone and just realise your gauge is not necessarily correct. Rely on the garage screen instead.

Will try and join you on the server later, let me know what time roughly.

Agree!

Thanks Ossie, they are cool.

Yes it is, no one had updated the status above.

Thanks, Pete.  :)

By the way, you guys do know that we are not supposed to select the soft and hard wets for these P&G cars in the wet?
They are still strictly modern GT tyres and therefore a cheat !  If you read the P&G tyre manual it tells you not to select them. You must pick the normal vintage tyre compound as they used the same tyres in wet or dry in those days, just changing the compound to suit ie soft, med, hard....when men were men  ;)

Will the server be able to detect if people are using modern wet tyres? will it show up on the results table? Might be worth adding a comment to that effect in post 1 rules.

ps...is it the 2004 GP circuit ? or 03 ?

for those wondering what tyres are suited to wet from the Dunlop range, its the CR65 970 for Tr4's. Its a soft compound tyre for 'all weather/wet'.

I managed a 2:03 with 45mins race fuel onboard using the CR65 tyre. It felt to me like it had too much grip for an early 60's race car in the 50% wet !
Im still confused by what pressures to put in the tyres. The tyre manual says 220-300kpa !!...thats a hell of a window to guess whats right  ???  I read that as i should start with 220kpa and see how that affects the load spread across the tyre, adding more as necessary ?  :-\  The manual also says 'optimum rain tyre temp is 185 F degrees...what the?? I cant get them that low.

Can anyone enlighten me/us on these temps and pressures ?

Server is running 04 standard GTR2 version (not UKGTR tighter cut checking one)


As far as I know there is no way to police this, there is nothing in the race export to indicate tyre choice or anything available when starting the server to limit that choice.

i thought the results normally listed tyre manufacturers ie pirelli, michelin etc or is that bit coded into the car files for different car models ? and not compound specific?

The tyre car relationship you see in results is due to some magic Dave weaves, there is an interface that asks the importer who looks it up in the car data files. Once set that's it, I can in fact enter any old rubbish I like (and have done in the past  :-[)

We will go with vanilla 2004 track, we will try UKGTR versions at a later date.

Re tyres, I was surprised to find that the TR4 is quite good fun, and driveable, on drys so maybe enforcing that tyres choice for wet races may be an idea. Think we will leave it open for this race and it will be interesting to measure results. Try both and report back please :)

Will try and join you gents later  :)

I might join you tonight aswell.  :D

Just tried it, thanks for the heads up, very interesting.  I managed a best of 2:19.5 over 4 laps (first I'd tried in the e-type) with your setup Madd, compared to 2:20.1 over 4 laps with the same setup with a softer front and stiffer rear, which I tried afterwards.  So that goes to show how much better it is.  It seems as though with a soft front end the tyres are much more prone to go into that 'ooh I've lost grip' squealing mode.  Which is the exact opposite to what I expected.  Is the car rolling so much the inside tyre starts to lose adhesion?

Car's much more positive and NOT understeery with your stiff front soft rear.  Interesting for sure.

Setting up cars is a headache.  :D

i guess having a soft squishy suspension underneath a big engine lump like the E-type has, would compromise your handling somewhat  ;)
By stiffening the springs your reducing the roll and therefore improving the handling  :)

Tyre choice is interesting. I managed 2.01's pretty consistently with Dunlops 970 but only 2.03's with soft wets. Hardly scientific, but surprising none the less. Perhaps it would differ with 100% rain?

Gotta say that the TR4 isn't as hard to drive in the rain as I thought it would be (I maybe way off the pace mind :laugh:). In fact its a little disappointing really. Wonder if the bigger beasties are more spicy.

To me the tr4 isn't as good in the wet - no front end bite, which is what makes it so good otherwise. I'm struggling to make it work at the moment, but I suspect I'm not exploiting the car well enough in the slow bits.

The only tyres you should use are the Dunlops, the 'GTR2' tyres are there for the AI, apparently it got confused when that part of the code was removed.

As Madd says  ;)

To me, using the soft and hard wet tyres is a cheat really and shouldnt be allowed in the spirit of our classics racing. Although your witnessing comparable times over a few laps, using the modern tyres may give a bigger advantage over a race distance through wear rates/grip etc so should be banned  :detective:

I too found the TR4 mildly disapointing in the wet at Doni, i was expecting a lot more slippy slidey fun. What i dont get is the TR4 is a 1961 sportscar and yet the tyres that the P&G mod allows for it are two compounds not introduced until 1967 according to their own tyre manual  ???  I bet if we were only allowed the R5's from 1961 the cars would be sliding all over the place in great style.
I found the TR4 more tail out fun to drive in the dry at Valencia weirdly, whereas i expected to be hanging on for dear life around here. Add more water !  :devil:...or use the IROC porkers instead  ;)

when im in lobby i cant see all the servers, some are missing, i´ve opened gtr2 ports but i know some servers are missing.

Have you got difficulty set to simulation mode?

hmm. ill try that prob you´re right .

thanks

Don't think I'm gonna be able to make this after all tonight, doubt I'll be back in time - gutted! I've been wanting a single make race for ages! Might I suggest an all mini's fun/test race at Knockhill sometime? I don't think you could get a closer race than that!

I too found the TR4 mildly disapointing in the wet at Doni, i was expecting a lot more slippy

Just as a matter of note whats the concensus on the "wet" race. like Jonzo I had been expecting an almost undriveably slidey car.

This is not a complaint, I love the idea I can get round in the wet.

My question is more to do with the wet experience. In other sims I've always been led to believe the undriveable myth.

Having no real life experience of actually driving any form of racing car (I dont include the occasional corporate go karting or the one time I drove Tinman's Pilgrim around Donington, and realised that sim racing was the only time I wanted to go racing. Shift-R was always more enjoyable than a spell in the local hospital and cheaper than remortgaging the house) I'd like to know which is the more realistic.

I always thought that previous sims were far too slidey.

An old man awaits enlightenment



Oilseal

the only 'wet track' experience i had was on a day at Brands Hatch in my 911. It bucketed down with rain in the late afternoon and although i could definitely feel the car moving about more i wouldnt say it became undriveable. Obviously you correct your speed and steering input to suit but i felt there was plenty enough grip. I guess the N-rated grippy fast road tyres helped..might have been a different matter on slicks  :o

Re the TR4, yeah it does appear to have too much grip for 50% rain, but then it is on soft and treaded tyres  :-\ I actually found it more of a handful at Valencia in the dry, it was far more easier to get the back end out around the turns there, so i expected it to be even more fun at Doni in the wet.
I think we should up the rainfall...60 or 70%.

Funnily enough I did a trackday at Donington in my Coop that started dry and turned into a deluge, enough for it to become open pitlane as people gave up and went home and finally to be called off an hour early.  On average (but modern!) road tyres it became very slippy, I'm guessing 20 seconds a lap slower (and I was one of the quicker cars in the wet). Instead of just getting the car into sustained 4-wheel drifts at the Old Hairpin I was doing so at almost every corner.  From relatively small drift angles to very large ones. Massive fun.  Like driving on ice.

Given that experience I'd also agree that the difference between wet and dry for the Tr4 here is massively underdone.  Other sims are closer.  Something a little dubious about P&G tyres maybe?

well im now gonna poo-poo whats been said and re-evaluate !  :P

I just tried a wet race @ 50% using this 60's class, driving the TR4 and trust me, it was more than slippery enough! As soon as you get offline or miss an apex then it gets very slippery and the car fishtails and slides about nicely enough.  I also managed plenty of spins mid corner or under power exit when you try getting on the gas too quickly. Likewise through the chicanes. You can get seriously out of shape with some lateral sliding up at Mcleans and coppice.  :o

I think its all about perception. Whats making this car look too stable on initial testing is because its pretty damn slow compared to the rest of the cars available, giving us ample time to make corrections and catch any errant drifts. But under race conditions when you have cars around you and your changing lines, it becomes a whole new world of slippery on the donington cambers  :)

I dont think there is anything wrong with the tyres. Try softening your suspension and the car becomes even more slidey and sloppy...i tried it !
I tried a variety of pressures. Around 270kpa (cold) seems to give about optimum grip, coming in at around 295kpa when hot, so staying within the 220-300kpa range as specified in the tyre manual.

Got to say, a full grid of GT60s cars at Donington in the wet, looks and sounds amazing  :tt1: especially when the daytonas and e-types etc pass you by, and seeing the odd car pirouette down at craners...all looks so real.  8)

All in all, i think the racing tonight will be very close and there will be a lot of spinners, just what the doctor ordered  ;)

Hehe, sounds good, don't get me wrong, after the quick wet test I did at the weekend I enjoyed the TR4, I just think a 3-second gap between dry and 50% wet is quite simply wrong.  But that doesn't mean it won't be enjoyable. (And I do secretly so enjoy single make races).

Don't make my head hurt though by saying softer means more slidey.....all I know is in the wet make the car as soft as possible.  Gonna crawl back into my 'know nothing' hole now........ :D

well yeah, softer means more grip but also means more body roll & movement making it more sloppy ! No use those tyres being grippy on the tarmac if you have 1.5 tons of metal trying to drag it sideways through inertia  ;D 

Finnaly i understand how to see full server list, just chaged dificult mode  :o

In the server i did 2.01 with the soft wet tyres, but i know see they shouldn´t be allowed on the track, will try later with the 970 tyres.

Cant see the tyre manual cause my stupid pdf cant open it right.

Fun car, this mod is making me chage the idea i had abou GTL convertions, the sound is excelent and the handling is demanding.

Noticed that with the ffb patch the FFB is not too strong, i had to change it on wheel to 85% but i think 90 will be ok.

Car choice is not my cup of tea...will give this a miss :)

Err ??? Went to grid and it said waiting for seven cars to join grid but everyone went. Got clattered, joined them but got dq'ed for jumping start ??? Think I joined grid too late or thats a GTR2 bug?

At least my connection is fixed. Trust everyone had fun.

Dodgy connection all day.  :(  Disco from 4th, hope nobody had problems 'cause of me.  :-\

TT

phew that was a real blast !

Qually was a disaster for me, had spent couple of hours with modern GT cars at Enna and it completely ruined my 'deft' ;) feel for these cars. Added to traffic and getting bumped i struggled to get a clean laptime in and found myself 13th on grid  :(

Race was all action from the green lights and thankfully nice and clean on first lap from where i saw. A real jostle in the midfield.

Enjoyed a great battle with first Lazlow for many laps of side by side action, swapping places several times a lap, then had exactly the same with Legzy after that. Great fun and good driving by all  8)

I kept yo-yoing around the top 10 with a few errors dropping me back each time and it seemed to take me half a race to get my rhythm finally going and then i set a string of 2:01 & 2:02 laps to close on the top 9 but it was too little too late and finished 10th.

The cars were very lively as i predicted !, felt great hanging the back end in big power drifts down through craners or fishtailing out of the slow turns.  8)
The Tr4s would probably make a cracking little one make clubmens series but i personally prefer the faster cars in the mod.

Sorry Geoffers, totally screwed up after spinning in the old hairpin. Saw someone else spinning right after me in the corner and thought it would be safe to rejoin, but instead I appeared right in front of you. Sadly you couldn't continue, and I didn't feel like finishing either after that incident.

Had a fun race until then though, close racing and managed to stay out of the sand traps most of the time. Also a lot easier to drive in the wet than the normal GTR cars.

Was well chuffed running in 5th... till TT did his Saturday night fever disco move  :o
Managed to avoid your ghost just, the 1st time then the 2nd time I had nowhere to go & I got splatted off the track. That's when I told you you were discoing. Not your fault TT, just one of those things that can happen to anyone. Besides I went on to have a pretty decent race. Once I'd worked up through the pack again, I found MJ & for the 2nd race on the bounce we had a few solid laps side-by-side all the way. Good stuff. Managed to get ahead & slowly eek out a gap & pick off a couple more places. Was disappointed that despite pulling in teammate Lazlow closer & closer most laps, I couldn't quite get close enough & as I started forcing it I made my one mistake which cost me about 10/11 secs & was nearly in the clutches of MJ again. Had a final bit of position swapping with Ade, I couldn't really push it as I finished with .2L in the tank mate  8)
Well done all.

p.s. Turned off special effects (from low) so I had no rain where I was  ;D to help my FPS & just had one period of 'shaky screen'.
p.p.s. Qualified surprisingly well, so even my poor eyes could see the start lights  ;)

I didn't see any chat, so I assumed other drivers weren't bothered.  :(  Sorry.  :(

TT

Qualed poorly, more than  a second of my PB. got passed by Evert, then went on grass trying to keep off his bumper
and lost it, slid over the grass and nudged him. sorry for that, was a midge's wedding tackle quicker than cars in front
as I'd lost places flying off, caught and passed some, hounded Ade, then Tinman, who skillfully avoided my clumsy
pass up the inside into the final turn, ta for that. Fun race
As for wet handling... I have little experience with soft wets or slicks,  but I have sprinted for the past few
years at various tracks and surfaces in a road going class, and the wet model in PG is VERY kind
My experience with hard race setup suspension is that you get less warning and more whip in the wet
with a stiff light car. A heavy TR4 is slower and rollier,and will be more forgiving, but it still feels slllooowwwww
and unnaturally progressive to slide in the wet and dry (as do all the P&G cars to me, more so than GTL)
Donington in the wet is horrible in real life, as the Aircraft from East Midlands airport dump fuel onto the track over time, which is very nasty when wet.

As I was dq'ed, I can't be arsed to do the results  :angel:

Truthfully, as you probably guessed I can't work out how to import them right now ;D Apologies, will get something sorted asap.

First part of the race was 'interesting' as everyone seemed able to out accelerate me down the straights. Had a couple of little battles with Jos and Legzy until TT's departure caused the parting of the red sea, leaving me in 4th and the others in the gravel trap at T1. The rest of the race was a case of watching Steve drive into the distance and the gap behind grow steadily. 4th was OK but the cars were not as good in the wet as in the dry and the lonely race was disappointing.

The really interesting bit was when I checked my controller settings afterward - the throttle only got to about 95% max. I had the same experience with the MARA guys last night so at least I know what the problem is now. After a bit of fiddling with DXTweak the throttle went to MAX and I could get well into the 2.00s fairly easily - Re-run anyone?  ;)

No worries JPV. Mark Jonzo went off in front of me & I was keeping an eye on where he was going & suddenly there you were :o. I tried to avoid you but it was too late. Killed my engine so race over.

I couldn't really get the hang of the TR4. When I first tried it I managed some 2.03s & after some more test sessions & much playing with the setup I managed some 2.03s ??? I seemed to make the car feel better to drive each time but not faster  ??? Never mind it was still fun.

Cya all next time
Geoffers

Results and Replay available

I was up for this race,did some laps when i got home went to connect to server no broadband  :taz: :cursing: checked other machine no internet either it has just come back on now  ??? so that when well. hope it was a good race

Awesome racing with PR for almost the entire race.  The gap stayed from 0.5 to 1.5s from about lap 4 until the end and you never made a major mistake - and in the wet conditions making braking difficult to judge when following another car I wasn't going to make any silly late dive.  Very enjoyable, and well deserved to finish ahead of me.  Congrats to Rui too, I think PR and I fighting made it easier but good win.

These cars are definitely more touchy than GTL cars, I'm really slow at settling into races and getting a rhythm but in GTL a heavy right foot is dealt with by a little opposite lock, but once the back started to go slightly I had to get right off the gas and wait for the car to settle.  After slightly outdragging Rui from the lights I lost the lead exiting T1 as I had to lift, dropped to 3rd, then a ragged couple of laps saw me lose touch with PR and Rui and then get passed by TT and Jos, then get them both back at the Old Hairpin.  Was a relief (but disappointing) when TT had to quit, as I finally settled down and stopped over-driving.  Closed up to the top 2 pretty quickly and then hit the wall of spray and a severe lack of errors from the top 2.  :)

Apart from the flakey starting laps only disappointment was to mess up all my best laps, was up at the second split 0.33 one lap and 0.4 another but both times messed up the penultimate hairpin, annoyed to miss out on a sub 2:00.0 which was possibly on.  Race winning pace but not race winning driving.  :D

Sorry to hear there were so many internet/game issues and race ending crashes, and bad luck with the controller issue Paul, you can beat us next time out.  ;)

Don't think I would have beaten you Steve - great pace from you guys. I might have kept you a bit more honest though  :)

Excellent pace Rui, well done.
Excellent driving Steve, very clean and smart from you, as you said, never put in danger due to track conditions, but you did put me in full alert. Very hard race. Wet track and a driver behind me that could be so fast or faster than me, it is not easy to deal for almost 20 laps.  :sweatdrop:
I saw the start replay and Rui, Steve and me were three wide before 1st corner  :eek: nobody touch noone tho. Caught 1st place during 1st lap, but then Rui was faster and re-took the position untill the end.
Now IMHO i'm ready to say that we shouldn't drop out the P&G mod.
The sounds are great. The physics are great and we have the possibility to have wet or changeable weather races.  :yes:

Cheers

Unofficial Lapchart (http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/steveh/DoningtonNatP&GFun/)

Video of race.
http://rapidshare.com/files/189004923/donnington.WMV.html (http://rapidshare.com/files/189004923/donnington.WMV.html)
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O2KZCAZU (http://www.megaupload.com/?d=O2KZCAZU)
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-oxDj_4L_o8 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=-oxDj_4L_o8)

Cheers Steve & Awesome work Ossie  8) 8) 8)

Nice video Ossie.

So: is it going to be P&G2 or GTL?

TT

Hehe, I even get to feature in one of Ossie's videos, maybe for the first time.  Good video, must take ages to edit these things so well. :thumbup1:

I think we are far from an unanimous verdict either way, so "our" way forward is described here TT https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5441.150