SimRacing.org.uk

WELCOME TO THE UKGPL SEASON 22 HISTORIC (66) TROPHY  

For the first round we go to Belgium. The Moulinsart track, although a fantasy, does need some skill, it is very sticky outside the tarmac and has a nasty jump so be aware.

There will be full moderation of lap one Red Zoone and reported incidents for the rest of the race. Please submit incident reports within a week after the race so that the moderators report may be out before the next race.

The Red Zoone is from start up to La Licorne

Reserve drivers should not use the server between 35 and 30 minutes of qualifying to allow full timers to join.

Please restrict chat to a minimum, (or maybe none).

Best of luck.
 
Race List =         iGOR
Server =            UKGPL_T7_2
IP Address =       62.149.202.168
Race date =       01-11-2011
Time =              Race start 21.30 UK time
Track =             Moulinsart
Variant =           66F1 2L engines
Damage Model =  PRO
Qualifying time =  >30 minutes. You are free to start as soon as the server is up but reserve drivers should not use the server between 35 and 30 minutes of qualifying to allow full timers to join.
Race length =     Pro Long (20 laps)

The track can be downloaded from: http://www.pilotesdelegende.net/moulinsart65_circuit.html


Group I
T1F Eagle Climax
Lotus 33 Climax

Group II
Brabham BT11 2.5lt
Lotus 33 BRM


GroupIII
Ferrari 246
Brabham BT11 BRM
BRM P261
Brabham BT11 2.7lt


Drivers Restricted to cars from Group I



Drivers Restricted to cars form Group II or Group I



All drivers have free chassis choice.


Password: See above
(2) Driver lists can be found here: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=339&theme=6 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=339&theme=6)

Watched the video on the website, seems like a very mentally demanding track. The flat out banked chicane is crazy!  :o

flat out chicane? thanks for making me feel inadequate.....

oh and what about the mid-curve jump that throws you off into the bump?

or the sticky grass verges?

Well it looked flat out in that 66 2L at least. I noticed the bump as well, yes, but nothing sticky. Maybe it helps if you don't go off lol.

should try the bump in a GT - the Fez P4 almost clears the bridge if you dont lift :D

Just to make sure that Full time drivers do not miss the race, reserve drivers should not use the server between 35 and 30 minutes of qualifying to allow full timers to join.

If you have set a quali time prior to 35 min left of quali and manage to rejoin the server your quali time will still stand.

If there are drivers that do not manage to find a slot at the race server the UKGPL_3 server will be up for a fun race.

Best of luck!

Göran

Sorry I'm out of town tonight so I won't race this one. One free spot for reserve drivers.
Ciao

Ops, changed plans. I'm racing tonight.
Later

For anyone who needs the track at this late stage, you can get it at http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/tracksMoulinsart_js.htm - let me know what you think! I intend that all the tracks will be available in time.

Better for me if you had stuck to plan A  ::)

First of al a big thanks for the race but had a smalle problem i can't see the password that we needed for the race luckly badblood have it to me in IGOR what could be the cause of this strange any way , i hoop in the future a can see the password .
greets any way svenvangent .

Sry Bernie, but it wasn't mine the red weapon that pointed a target on you ;)
Ciao

 Unexplainable what happened, my car went straight in the middle and hit the wall.
 came back and hit the pilot Clive , regrettable.
 Out in the first round and take a favorite to win contestant is embarrassing.

Had a great start and although being a bit insecure my mirrors,looking 135 degrees and sound made me take the ideal line into the sjikane and German Svennis( I was scared he was swedish) gently put himself behind me. My BRM didn t allow for sloppy driving in the bends,and   bit (to much ) respect for sticky ground fences etc made me keep a bit safer distance than practice and my laptimes suffered from it. I couldn t keep Svens pace,and after couple of laps I decided to stop defending. I had a really nice exciting race with Al and Gøran instead. Al was close to me and passed me same place as Sven close to half race. Distance back to gøran seemed ok, but a fezza backlapper had at the time bad connection and both Al and me spent some time on the grass trying to get byand Gøran closed ground.I was ahead of Al after the backlapepr incident, but  managed to do a mistake after the long straight and Al passed me again. After that I had Gøran on my back and could not get rid of him. now it was much mirrorlooking that let Al pull away from us. Gøran was close to pass me several times, but my BRM engine kept saving me. I also took a defensive line several times, and thought to myself it would be impossible to pass me unless I did a mistake. I did however try to pace up but it just wouldn t work out properly. Bad luck for me with 3 laps to go when racing really started to heat up and the old story of two cars trying to share tarmac. I ended  upside down. Big grats to Sven for the win, and Al( Very nice comeback from my teammate) :) :)  and gøran for podium. commiserations to myself .  ::)

Hmm - I'll have to watch the replay. Think I was the backlapper King mentioned and I might be at fault for Bernie but I think he was ahead of me... most were...

Pretty happy to have managed a 2:53. No practice and no setup, but just drove for a finish. Crashed on lap 12 at the Chicane when Mini decided that he would come and talk to me about his latest AWESOME race... (the capitals are his - he is 13!). 13 points for survival but 8 secs shy of Nigel who I am determined to beat in a fair fight... might have done so if I could have avoided spinning every lap.

Sven is quick - aint 'e!!!

I was half asleep at the start and consequently got jumped by about 3 cars before T1. :o

Still, I was not too bothered as I had qualified on race fuel and that meant I had to be at least as fast as the guys in front.

I found myself behind J Jonny and I have to say that Jonny's car was warping slightly and bouncing about as I followed him. I was planning to outbrake his eagle at the end of the straight and wanted a good run over the jump so I was running in his slipstream. As we started on the up slope to the jump his car appeared to jump to the right and hit something ( although there appeared to be nothing there!!) and rebound onto the track sideways over the top of the jump.
I had just committed to the jump and had the gas floored in 6th..almost squeezed through by keeping as tight to the right as I could as Jonny's car went left...but I got the smallest of clips which pulled me to the left. From then on it was a case of watching an accident happen in slow motion as the bridge got larger and larger and I just could not get the slide under control until a couple of wheels were liberated against that same bridge??  :-\

No worries Jonny, it was a racing incident probably caused by some warping on your connection initially.
Grats to Sven, who claims that he is NOT very fast ???!!!  lol , hmmmmm. I think there might be a few who will watch that closely. lololol

I think your car bottomed out on the bump before the rise.  Ivan did the same in front of me, thankfully I missed him and he could continue.  This sort of crash happens at Dingle Dell at Brands Hatch  and the big dip at the Nurburgring where there is also a bump before a rise.

I suggest you increase the bump rubber and ride height slightly.  I always do half my qually on full tanks just to make sure I don't have any problems like this.

Bad luck Evil, nothing you could do.

Moulinsart warmup race was Long, not 50 mins IIRC. It's possible that extra fuel made me bottom out now. Entirely my stupidity and miscalculation.

Later had another incident where i bounced off the walls. Was very lucky that car didn't have fatal damage in both cases. But my engine lost a lot of power after that and it finally blew on the last lap. Since i was last on the lead lap, didn't lose a place which was again very lucky.

So, technically i didn't finish a race again, but i'm at least getting luckier, if not better.

Yep ,  Suspension bottoming out and hitting the bump rubbers the cause of many a freak spin  

Same can happen when braking hard on any track if the suspension is not set properly  ::)

Hallo Kinghiro ,
Yes it was a good race , start was clean saw you comming from the right side and say to myself ollalala this man is little bit faster than me so ....i thought to myself cautious sven , it was a clean start for al the racers in front (don't know what happend in the back hopefully they made it also trou the first couple of 100 meters )
So , i was behind you at one moment and dident know what would happen so i stick behind you  .
The race was going on and after some laps i saw that i could keep up with you and after a while you let me gentely pas you like a genteleman thanks Kinghiro ( this was between parc and epingle de haddock ) .
from this moment i had te lead maaaaaaaan i was nervous , one thing i can tell you .... racing between to drivers in the heat of a race is something but racing in  front for the first time knowing that one mistake could cost you 3 or 4 places or care could be broken did not do any good for me and also hearing the cars behind me was crazy  :P
But But i made it trou the race and with a good feeling i ended the race .
In the heat of the race a had also some tricky moment  :o .
It was a good experience thanks guy's .
greet t.sven svenvangent  

Well done Sven on winning your first race in UKGPL? Has anyone else ever managed this?

I hope you will slow down a little in future races ;)

Well done Sven - debuts don't get much better than that. Clive's unusually slow start allowed me up to 3rd off the line & gave me a ringside seat for the battle for the lead with good clean racing by the front two - Sven patiently sizing up where he might pass & Tom carefully covering off any opportunities. Once Sven took the lead, I didn't want to start fighting with my teammate Tom as it would only slow us both down & with Goran looming close behind, the hefty tow that the BRM provided down the long straight helped us both to carve out some breathing space. After we'd established a bit of a gap to Goran I was keen to try & put Sven under some pressure but we both slipped up while lapping Paul - not seen the replay yet but I wasn't sure whether Paul had seen me & I was so busy watching him that I misjudged my corner entry & spun :P I guess Tom spun in avoidance so once we got going again Sven had a hefty 20 second cushion & Goran was right on our tails again. A slight error by Tom allowed me through into 2nd - I was expecting him to come & reclaim it soon but then he got embroiled in a battle with Goran which luckily allowed me to pull away. Sorry for Tom that his race ended in tears as he was right on the pace. Anyway really nice to be back after my season break - especially racing Tom & Goran as we were so closely matched & our fastest laps were virtually identical. Oh & great track choice too - really liked the circuit even though I never did get the hang of that damn jump.            

I would suggest lowering the bump rubbers because it's hitting the (stiff) bump rubbers which suddenly affects the car balance. Ride height and higher bump/rebound is usually sufficient.

Well done, sven, I got to see you lap me :D

Can anyone confirm the flat-out chicane?  I was definitely slowing down for it and the jump, what with pro settings & no resets.

Is the bump rubber setting 'stiffness' or 'size'?  I thought having higher number would mean bump rubbers are hitting more easily cause they are larger, so I mostly have them at 0.5 unless it's a heavy GT.  Maybe I'm all wrong though and it's actually stiffness.

Fuel load makes a huge diff too.  Always test with race tank to see.  I noticed bottoming with fuel so notched up the springs by 1 setting all around and ride height up 0.5 in.

I reduce the bumps to their minimum level and either raise the ride height or stiffen the spring rate (or both)... That said I span the car on lap onejust before the jump when the car bottomed out! Did a full 360 and carried on unharmed... ahh the benefits of running a distant last :D

You set the bump rubber size while stiffness remains the same. Keep in mind that with more fuel in the car, it's mostly the rear that becomes heavier, so it helps having slightly stiffer rear spring or more ride height. The problem with that is it changes balance, so one has to either test or just accept the compromise. One thing I've always noticed is that it's much better to have the rear bottom out than the front, so I sometimes set the front ride height higher than the rear. And of course it helps a lot to be on the throttle when you go over the bump instead of decelerating and having the nose of the car go down into the bump.

I did try to explain Sven was "quite good"  ::) ::) ::) ::) and not just in a Porsche!


Great win by the way Sven, good luck mate.

Yes Bernie, the red rocket was mine...
Unfortunately I really didn't expect you would brake so earlier than me, I'm so sorry!!
There's nothing more to say: a great track but my race was really shorter than I expected.
I also had another race contact with Nigel's brabby than I push Bernie out of the track at the chicane: race end!
Grats to Sven for his impressive first UKGPL race.
See you all in Monsanto

I'd just like to check my understanding of the bump rubbers. 

The worst case of bottoming out is when the chassis hits the ground (in which case sparks will be seen on a replay).  So I usually try to set the bump rubbers high enough to avoid that happening. 

Once the bump rubbers are set the next thing I try to avoid is bottoming out on the bump rubbers.  The car will still handle badly if it bottoms out on the bump rubbers but there won't be any sparks on the replay (because the chassis is not touching the ground).

So then I stiffen the springs or raise the ride height to avoid bottoming on the bump rubbers.  Being human rather than an alien, I find a stiff set up hard to drive so I tend to raise the ride height to give me more "feel".   

Maybe it is the wrong approach and I should always use small bump rubbers and just use spring rates and ride height to avoid the chassis bottoming out?  I used a 2.00 inch bump rubber for this race, I'll try my set up with 0.5 and see if it is any better.

Riccardo Nunnini has a good explanation of bump rubbers (http://www.btinternet.com/~ricardo.nunnini/BumpRubbers.html) and he advocates using 0.5 inches.  Unless hitting the bump rubbers is unavoidable.

Regardless of what size bump rubbers to use, I think bottoming out was the cause of Johnny's and Ivan's crashes.  I suggest it wasn't an internet glitch.

I ve been wondering about this myself. I think that bottoming out is worst. landing on rubbers are second worst so with for example with 4 inch height and 2 inch rubbers you would most likely land on the rubbers on this track if not using extremely stiff springs. it would then be better to have 0.5 inch rubbers if your springs and bump/rebound setting keep the car off the graound,BUT: if it bottoms with 4 inch height it s better that it lands on 2 inch rubbers than on 0.5 inch rubbers. They should have some flexibility but don t know how the program models that.
I n general keeping the the car off the ground with springs and bump/rebound(would be bump most not?) is the best and don t use loads of rubbers unless you intend to land on them and can handle the cars behaviour when you do.
I can t see any point in saying put more rubbers to keep the car off the ground if theres no flexibility in them. if 1 inch rubbers cant keep it the car from bottoming on a bumpy road, then it won t keep it from bottoming on any road if flexibility in them isn t modeled.it s just that you never notice any problem at for example Monza.
Thats the way I see it. interested in wievs on this matter:)
EDIT: another thing is the vertical speed when it it hits the rubbers. If I for example want to spank gørans bum, I wouldn t get any impact if I just raised my hand 0.5 inches would I?neither should it make the car become extremely twichy.Not favourable, but maybe to prefer anyway if the other option is to to make the car extremely heigh because of one single place on a long track.
Last EDIT: hmm missed that explanation link.it covers good:)

My understanding of bottoming out is not when the underside of the car hits the ground but when the suspension compresses completely. That is when bump rubbers take over as the only available oscillatory device, not counting tires (which are much stiffer anyway, so let's assume they're solid objects). Because bump rubbers in GPL are much stiffer than the mostly used suspension settings and you can't change bump rubber stiffness (as opposed to the real world), it's very bad when the suspension compresses completely and your car rests on the bump rubbers.

I would rather avoid that as much as possible. As for scraping the ground, it's not so bad as long as the car is going in a relatively straight line. It's even less of a problem when you hit the ground mostly towards the rear of the car, as your front tires would remain with decent load and you can control the direction with ease. That's why I work on avoiding hitting the ground with the front end, either by setup or by applying throttle so I generate rearward pitch of the chassis.

The only time I used more bump rubber is when I want to prevent the car balance to shift too much backward and forward, or to the side, such as on tracks with a lot of banking or a lot of severe altitude changes. Whenever I use more bump rubber though, I find it necessary to run stiffer suspension as well, so the transition from suspension ride to bump rubber ride is less abrupt. Of course the bump rubbers actually always affect the ride because they're like an extension of the suspension, so in a way they act like secondary device to stiffen up the suspension. One could use that on smooth tracks where there isn't much compression during the lap, to fine-tune the handling of the car. You can see it on some alien Lotus WR setups.

I did actually scrape the ground when turning before the rise. But it was more than a scrape, it was more of a sudden hit and the car was spinning immediately. I gently scrape the ground at Nurburgring sometimes and it's no problem to stay in control.

Clive says that Johnny's car jumped to the right. Since you are turning right at the moment of a hit, you spin to the right.       

What I meant was, that from my view.... Jonny's car actually appeared to move completely onto the grass and back again within about 10 mtrs...almost certainly some warp involved.

But, at the same time he lost all control, so that was probably a mixture of bottoming out from him and warp affecting my view of things.

You can bottom out without scraping the ground. The hints for that are when the car suddenly changes direction for no obvious reason and at the same time you know there aren't any bumps on the track. The usual effect is of either the front or rear end becoming out of control for a fraction of a second. You can experience it a lot when you have altitude changes such as at the Nurburgring and I don't mean the places where you scrape the ground. TBH I've not had it happen any recently, but that's down to using setups I've developed over the years, so it only happens when I experiment with settings.

Thanks for the kind words guy's .
See you on the next track Monsanto Park very nice track and a good choice .
I see it will be raced with the 3Liters this time .
greets svenvangent (t.sven online racename)

Oh, Monsanto! It's the perfect place to test one's ability to avoid bottoming out.  ;D

Thanks to all drivers for making this a full grid event.

Grats to Sven for your stunning UKGLP debut.

Grats to Al for your stunning come back to UKGPL.

Grats to all 12 of you that got points.

And a very big sorry to KH for putting you out of the race.

Now I have a request to all of you. Last season Paul "BadBlood" Whitfield wrote race reports for the Historic trophy, you can read them in the mod reports form the races like here: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9253#event2625 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9253#event2625)

But he is a busy guy so for this season I wonder if anybody else also would like to write race reports. Maybe if you could write just a few each we could cover all season and frankly you do not even have to be a driver in the Historic trophy to do it. You just review the replay and write about what happend.

Let me dream a little. We have here a retired driver that do not have much to do nowdays  ;D and we have seen it before like Jackie Stewart and others that begun as a reporter after their carrier ended. So, Hristo what do you think could I interest you for the job?


My race was good for most of it until the incident with KH took place. After that I lost all interest in trying to catch Al.

At the start of the race I was in 4TH trying to keep up. It did not take long for Sven to brake free at the lead but I was holding on to Al and KH until I made a little mistake, but with a little help from a backmarker who distracted Al and KH I found myself back right behind Al and KH. I followed KH for a couple of laps and found out that I was quicker then him right at the start of the lap, so to get past that should be a good place to do it.

Well, it was not, or should I say, my plan did not succeed as I touched KH`s back wheel in the process and he was out of the race, or you could simply say that I rearended him. Anyway after that I just cruised the remaining laps to the finish seeing Al go in the distance. But frankly, I do not think I would have had a chance to catch Al even if things had gone my way.   

The result led to two good things at least, from my view point, that for the next race Sven will be in a group 1 car, a Maclaren or Eagle, and Al in a group 2 car, but still of cause we will have KH and Evil and ................... in well I guess I just need to prepare some for Monsanto.

Göran

First of all, I'm nowhere near close to writing reports as good as Paul does it. I can state facts and explain what happened, but that's hardly comparative. Evil is 10x more qualified in writing engaging reports, as we all have seen!

Second, not much to do? Lol, I wish. It just doesn't take much time to visit the forum, but that's about all the time I can spare and which is also why I had to stop racing.

Hallo guy's ,
For the next event "Monsanto Park" i'm gonna take the Mclaren M2B Ford  it is a 3liter with a good sound .
Will not be so easy to win this time me think so .
Anyway i'm already looking forward for this one .
greets svenvangent.

Olalala , brrrrrrr just done some test at Monsanto with the Mclaren M2B Ford and went to GplRanks to see what times that there where  already existing :o
Ok ............ need some more prrrrrrractice but....... i stick with that heavy beast  :P

You can check last season's race which was also with the 3L cars: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9392#event2627

Check out my times... you don't need nearly as much practice as me.

I gave Hristo some hairy times last year by not knowing the tracks very well <ahem>. Sometimes you just have to turn up and drive...

Whaaaaaat  :o Hristo You did that with the Mclaren M2B Fort mamamia terribile well done :P
Is there somewhere a replay of this race  ?

Hallo badblood ,
But it is a hel of a tricky track , man..... this track will eat my brain  :P
greets svenvangent

Yes, take a look here: http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/inc_replaysS21_js.htm# (http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/inc_replaysS21_js.htm#)

Göran

Ok thanks Göran