SimRacing.org.uk

UKGTL - Season 0-A (TC65) - Round 2 at Anderstorp South

Please make sure you have read at least the Driving Standards (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=7#driving_standards) section of the SimRacing rules  (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=7)before racing.

Date: Monday 16th January

Practice 1: 8:30pm (15 mins)
Qual 2: 8:45pm (25 mins)
Race: 9:10pm (20 mins - 20 laps)

Cars allowed: Any TC65 Class car.
Track: Anderstorp South
Time of Day Setting: 18:00

Server: SimRacing.co.uk (UKGTL)
Password: usual practice password (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2929)

See UKGTL Season 0 Announcement post (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=1038.msg13732#msg13732) for extra information on Season 0.

Server is running this now if anyone is still awake enough for practice ;)

Think I might take the Jag for this to add a bit of variety to the grid.

Looking at GTL rank, its going to be another Alfa fest I guess. Hope there will be a few more minis though  :).

Well then! I might see your Jag and raise you an Abarth! Just for pure comedy value :)

LOL, might just do the same Paul, they are so quaint I have to take one at least once.  ;D ;D

This track is hell ;D

 Why does it have to be so hard to crack the minute in a Mini, it's those damned corners after the runway >:(

Aaaaaaargh :'(

Would be really helpful if we got a wider selection of car makes in this race as yesterdays race at Mondello was very heavily biased towards Alfas.

Because Season 0 is essentially a test season getting comparitive performance race results from the different cars would be a big benefit. It would be especially helpful if some of the faster guys took non Alfa cars so that we can see how much of an advantage certain cars are over others in race situations etc.

Thanks for your help.

I'll be in the Mini - eat my dust!

Cortina for me if no one else takes it.

Cortina for me too

Any volunteers for the Falcon or Mustang?

Make the aliens drive 'em !!  ;D :-*

Will try out a different car tonight to the Alfa, but it wont be one of those yankee buggers, too much hard work  ;)

I'm gonna try all the cars and will see in what I'll me in the middle, times-wise. Falcon in a bathtub might not be so slow.

I'm doing the Abarth tonight, going to do the Mustang on Wednesday.

Thanks Ruskus. Will be interesting to see what a reliably quick driver can do in each of them.

Had a quick go in the Jag. My progress would be best described as "serene and stately".

Some cars have speed in their genes. The Jag is the decended from a sofa.

Here are my times:
2nd timed lap and default setup.
Ford Falcon: 1:00.899
Abarth: 1:01.838
Mini Cooper: 0:59.500
Ford Mustang: 1:00.748
Lotus Cortina: 0:59.012
Alfa Romeo: 58:940

That I was quickest in the Alfa doesn't mean that that is the best car. I know that car the best of them all and that one was the last to test, so I knew the track a bit better than.
With a good setup and more practice per car I might be able to take half a second or maybe (!!!) a bit more.
I think I'll drive the Cortina tonight. I'm not very consistent in that, so it's not like I'm gonna do 59ers all the time.
Hope this helps anybody making a choice.

P.S. The taxidriver didn't want me to take his Jag on the track so I didn't have the opertunity to test the MKII. :P

Cheers Ruskus, useful info.

Looks like I'll have my work cut out in the Abarth then.  :'( :'(

Thanks Ruskus.

I managed a 1:01.3 in the Abarth after a few laps, quicker than my Mustang & Falcon times.

If you want me to do this in the future, either for planning the length of the race, or you want some reference to the cars times, just give me a yell.
I can't drive all the cars good, there will be plenty of people who will beat these times, but GTLrank isn't very reliable imo.

That's what I mean, somebody faster then me. Sounds like a good time to me. I only did 2 timed laps in it so I don't know if I can go any faster.

The Abarth feels very strange to drive at first, so it probably takes a bit more practise than some of the other cars to set a decent time in it.

Everything about it is strange. I drove one once (just a regular fiat 500) and its is so bizarre its beyond words.
Starting one requires pulling a up small cable on the floor between the seats! (repeatedly)
When reversing there is dangerous oversteer even at parking speeds! Its actually possible to reverse on full lock and spin it in circles like a top.

I'm tempted to take one out later if I get in, no idea of laptimes though.
..and dont worry I'll be going forwards ;D

Just tried this, did you know 19:00 is a night race at Anderstorp?

Turning graphics to low....

I've just PM'ed Picnic and asked him to set the race time to 18:00 instead of 19:00. This race was supposed to be a dusk race, we're having the night race later in the week.

Edit - looks like Shark has modified the time of the race to be 18:00.

LOL. Was just on there and realised 19:00 up in the outer regions of space (Sweden) was nighttime, so yes it's changed with Picnic back to 18:00 for Dusk setting. Really need 18:30, but no option for 30 minute changes.

Graphics back up to medium then!

Thanks. Could be interesting - at 18:00 the sun is right on the horizon, so it might start to get darker during the 20 minute race. Try to keep your headlights intact people.  ;)

I'm gonna try and make this one, obviously in one of the bathtubs.... Mustang this time prolly, to get that good ole Bi-T feeling, hehe!

T

Was full, don't like the track anyway, so I'll skip this one.

Grrrr, botheration and poo, missed my braking point at T1 L1 and went almost to the back of the pack. Frame rate was not good and I ran wide on the s/f straight reaching for the frame rate counter.

Then, just to spoil any possible fun carving my way back up through the field, my ADSL connection went up the swanny and I got disco'd. >:(

Me too

Really enjoyed that in the Abarth. It's pretty outclassed in anything but alien hands and borderline dangerous though I'd say! Along with the mini, the heft of cars becomes a factor in GTL and people know that they can barge you a little without coming off worse. Great fun though overall, thanks everyone :)

p.s. sorry, I know I'm like a stuck record, but can we stick to just pit in, pit out messages during Q2 and the race?  :)

You were warping all over the place on my screen.

Qualified 23rd in the Jag. It's easy to drive but seriously off the pace. Made several places at the start, only for cars to stream past me. Finished 14th in the end.

Seconded Paul - can we cut out all chat messages during the race please, it's distracting. This is in the simracing.org rules.

Went wide in turn 1 and got catapulted to the right across the grass. Rejoined on the other side of the track...  ;D To my surprise I wasn't DQ when I suddenly saw a huge pack of cars in my rear mirror. Tried to stay out of the way and then rejoined the pack but eventually got DQ for ignoring a stop and go penalty. I wish we could have some radio communication with the team to warn us about such things.

Frame rates were great at qualifying so I managed to drive from my favourite cockpit view and got 5th position but for the race they dropped to 25 because of the dusk. Not fun to drive with such poor frame rates. Pings were also a bit high (220 - 350) so cars were stuttering a bit.

Driving the Abarth was intersting...

Some how managed to get down to 1:00.693 (A GTL Abarth World Record BTW) in qualifying, putting me 18th on the grid.

Got my usual storming start and made up 8 places in the first corner or two due to it. Got up to 8th after some other people's mistakes / retirements and then gradually people passed me (was heartbreaking to watch even minis outdrag me down the straights). Down to 10th and as I lapped Gerald in his Abarth, don't really know what happened but ended up being rear-ended and being whacked into the barrier far harder than I think it whould have been feasible to be and then a few more piled into the tyres at the same place. All very odd and seemed like some glitch. Must check the replay. Anyway, lights were out then so was finding it hard to see the braking point after that down at the end of the long straight, but coaxed it home to 12th.

The Abarth was the slowest of any of the cars down the straights, even the Jag was very marginally faster I noticed in practice when sitting behind Aagramn although much faster in braking zones and corners than Jag (that must have been hard work that lump Michael?). The minis were faster down the straights and slightly better under braking and maybe a bit better through the corners but not much. Interesting anyway.

For 20 minute race I think the qualifying session was too long, don't know what you guys reckon? I liked the dusk racing and the circuit distance was ok.

I noticed a bit of lag in practice/qualifying and the cars weren't perfectly stable in race either. Not bad, just was a bit noticable.

I think it's the Mustang for me next.

Sorry guys, I did pick a different car. Can't help winning again. Although it didn't look like that. Qualified 2nd but after the Airstrip BigG overtook me and I got 3rd, and at the end of lap 1 I almost became 4th. I really had to get the feel of that Cortina. Pero_Grozni (PG) looked too far away to overtake while I was in 2nd, but in that case the traffic helped me a bit. :)
I must say that everybody behaved very well at the track, people being lapped were really fair, big thanks to that.
So Aagramn, no Thank you is allowed or sorry when something happens, only pit in/pit out?

Yup! :)

That was a pretty good race for me, ended up 10th I think after a really good qualifying session. Had a great tussle with Mr Jonzo at the end  :D

'Fraid I'm still a bit green on the actual GTL racing so sorry to those I made contact with, especially Tom Cooper when I made a real mess of things :(

I can't help thinking these GTL races will be a *nightmare* to moderate  :-\

I had absolutely no problems with framerate or lag  8)

Yes Shark the qualifying session was a tad long, 5 mins less would have been perfect.

The Jag was very easy and predictable to drive, just dead slow. It has the weight of the Yank cars without the power. An all Jag race sometime might be fun.

At least it gave you time to adjust your flat cap and smoke your pipe.  ;)

I don't know what I did at the start :-[ managed to drop to last, half the field left me as I dropped the clutch in top ;D

After that had a great time, never cracked the minute though :'(

Great race once again . Qualified 4th with a pb time . Started quite well and had a good tussle with Dave Gymer on the first lap , "BigG" started to pull away but he got held up in traffic towards the end of the race and i managed to snatch 3rd at the end. Great driving by everyone as usual.
Frame rate was fine for it being dusk and didnt notice any cars stuttering at all.

I think it would be alot better if cars were seperated into there own classes , this would make it more fair as people could drive the car of there choice and still have something to race for such as class win points which would go towards overall championship points.

TC-Class A : Alfa GTA & Lotus Cortina
TC-Class B : Mini & Abarth
TC-Class c : Falcon, Mustang and Jag

Points could be awarded for class wins and points for all three classes would be the same so all cars have a chance to win championship overall. Not sure if this would work, just a quick thought.

Dan

Well, got a good start and ran well for a couple of laps but then Ginsters tapped me in the side with a massive cornish pasty  ;D, lost a few more spaces car felt weird for about a lap, (does dirt get on the tyres?)  :-\ , then for the next 15 or so laps drove like a demon  :D to get back to 7th from about 13th (correct me if I'm wrong, which I probably am!  :-[ ) Had a really good battle with Don, again! unfortunately tapped him, REALLY SORRY and screwed the Cortina home to 7th.

Another hectic fiercely competitive race !...if these first two are anything to go by it will be one hell of a championship season. 8)  I tested several cars earlier as i wanted to help with the varied field but i just dont like any of the other TC65 cars other than the abarth but found that too slow. I like the mustang but its too much hard work, so stuck with the sweet sounding Alfa.

Qualied 8th, pipping Pops in the dying minutes of qualy to get a PB of 59:385. Then had a disastrous start as i sat there looking at all the other cars and for some reason thinking i was in a rolling start ala GTR  ::)...lost about 4-5 places on the grid whilst daydreaming. Then caught the back end of the big pile up at the end of the runway, with a mini going across my bows and missed the braking point. Dropped to very last i think, then had to fight my way past everyone until i got to 8th at one point, but Pops had sweet revenge later, for qualy, after we fought for several laps and he nipped past me under braking on last corner of lap, that horrible hairpin onto pit straight. Great stuff, think i finished 10th ? behind the no-doubt very smug Pops  ;D

another great race and i dont even like Anderstorp. 8)

Sorry rip, felt more donought than pasty  :-[. In mitigation, its is very difficult racing other cars in the mini but I am getting better.

Apart from that feck up, enjoyed the race immensely and hope the league racing will have the same variation in the grid. Gerald taking to the air and landing on top of me in quali had me in tears  ;D. Gonna have to try Abarth (class 2???) in next race.

From the rules (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=7#chat):
There's no point in compounding a mistake which affects one other driver's race with a distracting chat message which affects everyone. Apologies are best kept for after the race.

One of the things I'm investigating is how the cars are split into sub-classes in the real FIA Historic championships. ;)

I thought you were probably already looking into it , hope it can be done.

Cheers

Yay! I'm 6th fastest ON THE ENTIRE PLANET!!!

What about 2 divisions as well, this may allow for more people to play and compete. I know it would be a lot more work but its a battle to get on the server at the mo 'cos everyone wants to race!


No prob, I nearly caught u by the end, just another couple of laps  ;D
Still, I got the red mist from it so you did something for me!
I even broke the minute a few times, well chuffed!
I've got the hang of 'autoclutch off' too, sooo much fun! 21st worldwide in Anderstorp south in the Cortina!  wooohooooo  ;D

Chances are we'll need to run the '76 cars in a different series from the '65 ones anyway, so that's two series anyway. Possibly we'll consider running the two '65 classes in a single Endurance type championship and then one sprint championship each for GTC-65 and TC-65; it depends on demand, available server time, and our abililty to recruit enough moderators to run all the possible divisions.

LOL! I was that on GTR a couple of times...

Happened when we added a new track to GTRank, hehe. And I was quickest of all the admins of the site, haha! Should still be in the top 10 for a couple btw ;) (/me puts chest forwards, loool! ;))

T

Fairly uneventful race for me. I was lucky to be able to avoid any of the big pile ups.
The Alfa was easy and a pleasure to drive again even though I had huge problems finding the braking zone at the end of the long straight.
Happy to have ended up 8th and been able to keep it neat and tidy all race.


Forgot to say I thought the distance was just about right for a short track.

Tried to make it for this one, but got there just too late as I saw the last place disappear on the server. Went and attempted some praccy for the Spa water-fest tonight, should prove interesting as it felt VERY, VERY strange after not driving GTR for a couple of weeks and so much GTL & rFactor :)

Yes there are some possibilities there with splitting up the sub-classes.

Just as an example though nobody in their right mind would take the Abarth or Jag in either of B or C and you'd end up with just Minis in B. Having said that I would be VERY suprised if anyone took an Abarth or Jag in Season 1 anyway, they are simply too crap. Only if there were penalties for the other cars (or advantage for those) would I think people would take them.

I think the variation in car choice will come more with the GT65 and 76 cars personally. Theres a good spread of varying machinery to choose from in those two classes and everyone is going to have their own peculiar or nostalgic fave.

Its a bit of a shame that only the cortina and alfa are really on the same par in the TC class as it robs us of the fun of seeing/hearing the different cars on track...unless some of the alien drivers could be tempted into running them to even the racing out a little?..after all, the front few are averageing 2 secs a lap faster than the rest of us mortals  :-\

Mind you Pops and a couple of others were very competitive in the mini last night so at least thats a third car type into the bun-fight  8)

That's what's happening in NGT in GTR as well, vast majority in either a GT3 or 360 and I don't think that's taken away from the racing at all.

After seeing how the Mini has fared in the last two races, as it stands I'd be happy to take it for a TC65 championship.

For sure, there are more evenly matched cars in GT65 but, in my experience, I am pretty sure Capris would dominate the 76's.

The grid variety, for all the classes, is really going to depend on how much people want to win. If thats going to be the only motivation its going to make for some dull grids. I would like rules implemented that would prevent singular make grids and don't personally care if that (unlikely I know      ;) ) lands me with a camel on the grid as I don't have that winning is all mentality, for sim racing anyways.

I guess a real wish-list item for any upcoming sim would be a customisable handicap system such as the FIA weight penalties that *should* have been in GTR, I think that's a very easy to understand and workable system.

Fingers crossed for GTR2 I guess...

Any online TC65 drving I do will be in the Mini, it has to be a pretty competitive car or I would not have been able to qualify 13th and finish 13th last night, despite being last off the grid :)

I do love the mini and will try to take it on some of the tighter, short tracks.

I think the Porsche 906 will dominate, but then not everybody has won that yet (me included). And I think the GT40 will be the choice car in GTC65 (opinion) again not won that one myself yet either, sooooon.


Yes and we've been asking for that since GTR first came out in Germany. Would be very nice to be able to penalise both cars and drivers with weight penalities. Can't be that hard can it? It's done in single player in GTR already. To do it per car choice, just need to match the car with a configurable weight penalty in the dedicated server GUI and to do it per driver, could be done with a configurable weight penalty to match driver names (like the ban thing) again in the dedicated server GUI.

For my first race with you guys in GTL, that was a blast of a race!
Had a few good tussles (Mo - you scared the bejebus out of me when I saw you in the mirror! ;D ) and lost it a few times on the end of the straight but think I finished 15th in the end. The mini is so much fun (I changed my mind from the Alfa to it at the last minute) - might try the Mustang next for the craic!

With regard to the championship, I'd be more than happy to take one of the lesser cars to add variety purely because the game is just so much fun, I'm not really in it for the win (wish I had the talent to but just smiling too much to care :D )

If we can't do weight penalties, one craaaaazy alternative (gawd I sound like a penguin! :o ) is to adapt the scoring to give more points for lower power to weight ratios (or similar). We did it in ProLeS and it worked quite well although that was with a ladder system and not a championship league.

That sounds interesting Dave. How do the power to weight ratios look in TC65 for example?

I'm all for it if the mini comes out of it well  ;).

/me slowly but surely pulls Dave over to the other team...  8) 8) 8)

I'd like a system like that tbh. Played online for a bit yesterday and thought I'd take a shot at actually winning this time, so didn't pick the Abarth, lol! Turned out that others had the same thought, hehe. And like Ginsters said... A lot of Capris and a couple of 911 RSRs in the top 10. Would be a shame if everyone went for either the Alfa or Cortina (maybe mini for some tracks), but as Popa said similar stuff happened in the N-GT season and it was still good fun! /Me still says the Bi-T was better than the GT3/360 ;) :p.

T

Imo, cupraces are the most fun, and safest to drive. The cars have the same racing line and brakepoints. Was the Escort race not fun, I don't think so. Seeing many of the same cars makes absolutely no impact on the level of fun.
I also don't see why faster drivers should pay for that. They didn't find the speed on the street or won it at a lotery. They practised and practised for it, and might have gotten better hardware. So it's unfair to blame them for being fast.

They do (pay for it) in the FIA GT series with a weight penalty for the next race!

I see (and agree) with your point though :)

This rang a bell on a previous discussion on handicapping (drivers, not cars) and my 2p's worth on why I didn't think it would work;
https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=446.msg5886#msg5886

Handicapping cars is a totally different discussion as faster drivers would still be faster, but with more choice of cars.

Lol Ruskus, no one is blaming you for being to fast. And you make a good point about single car races being much safer, I have taken out 1 or 2 drivers with mini already ::).

However we disagree because I believe that a one make grid would be terribly disappointing. I have had so much fun driving mini, falcon and hopefully will have with the Abarth that I would be disappointed if choosing them would leave me trundling about with no one to race.  I hope that a fair compromise, one that doesn't penalise the fastest, can be found but realise there are no easy answers.

I have no problems with weight penalties (too bad tou can't force a full fuel tank). I love the Alfa and I don't like to be forced to take another car. But because this is testing I'm swapping cars every race...probably.
One suggestion for races is:
Make 2 divisions. Have a quallification session (multiple serves maybe) for all the drivers who want to race, and place the top half in Div 1 and the second half in Div 2. This will mae competitive driving and safer because of less lapping slower drivers.
Or, use two races a night in which the second race, the start is opposite of the result of race 1, so that the winners must start from behind.

We might get enough drivers for 2 divisions, but this depends on how many sign-up for the proper season. The S0 races have been very well attended, but if we run multiple leagues for the TC-65, GTC-65 & GTC-TC-76 cars we might get less drivers in each class.


That could be fun, but we can't easily manage this in GTL. We'd need a manual pace lap, with a moderator on hand to call out drivers in order to get everyone lined up right, could be a bit of an operation. It could also cause a large number of race incidents.

Nobody's blaming the fast drivers for being fast, but the league must focus on clean and close racing or people will get bored and leave. I hope that at least some of the "aliens" will rise to the challenge of trying to win in slower cars over slower drivers in faster cars, and having to actually race other people in the process instead of simply streaking away from pole position for race after race.

Very well put Dave

In order to ensure to long term future of the leagues here we must ensure that all drivers at any ability level  are catered for. The aim of the league should be to provide a clean racing environment where everyone can enjoy competitive racing at their own level without feeling disadvantaged. As you quite rightly say, if the same old faces streak away from the pack race after race some members will lose interest.

It would also be a very good learning exercise for some of the slower drivers (myself included) to be involved in close quarters racing with the "aliens", pick up tips, observe racing line, braking points etc. which ordinarily we don't have the opportunity to see.

If you ever need advice, tips, setups or whatever, you can always ask me. I even don't mind to spend some time on a private server and give some lessons there to whomever wants it( not meant cocky). Instead of making me slower in a different car, I'd like to make others faster. So if I can help you, don't hold back and ask.
For the next race I've put down my laps there.

Is there a replay of this, mine is only 5s long  :-\

Yep, server replay available here:

http://ukgtl.simracing.org.uk/

That's cause GTL over-rides the replay when it re-cycles the track after the race is finished.
You can prevent it over-riding the replay by changing the following in your plr file so that it puts a unique timestamp on the replay file. Server replays for races on UKGTL will nearly always be available too though...

Replays Dated="1" // Replays have date in filename

(Set to zero by default).

But even if you set this in the .plr the first few minutes of the race are often missing.

I'm pretty sure we'd be up for that m8! Very nice! Hopefully I could host the server and then we could have a go around with some ZiPpers and use teamspeak as well for setup tips and advice etc... Check ur PM please :D

T

I'd be up for that too  ;D

I have it on Replays dated, and the race replay is there, but I get put on the track and then.....over. I can see the whole grid for 1s just before it starts over again. I have all the video recording set to maximum ::)

Jam, love your Avatar !

Ruskus, thats a kind offer to help other drivers out. One or two other aliens have been quite helpful when i've been fortunate to be in a praccy session with them in non-champ sessions, such as JonM and Truetom. Others seem less forthcoming with their secrets! ::)

I'll keep an eye out for hosted praccy sesh's and hopefully bend your ear for some setup tips....for instance i feel reasonably quick in the Alfa but struggle with turning it in, in the low speed/tight corners and can see thats where i lose time, every time over a lap. If you can cure that i'll buy you a pint ! ;)

It can only be helpful for the champs if more people can compete for a win, rather than an uber 2-3 people every time.

I'certainly like to benefit from some other people's experience, more from the setup side of things than anything else, as I really don't have a clue with what I'm meant to be doing there.  I've downloaded one of the replays (from the E-type race) and looking at lines/braking points etc is usefull, I'm not too bad on the whole, I just can't get everything together for some decent lap-times - generally I'll have a good sector and then overcook it or brake too early in some corners to mess the lap up.

Thanks Peewee.(don't look at me Tyf started it)
Just reminded me I need to take a trip to the optician :-\

 ;D

Don't expect a magic formula. I can only give some online setups and tips, nothing more.
I was bad at GTR, but much better in GTL. So it's also the feel for the cars that helps (obviously :)).
I can teach you how to wisper Paul

I don't need driving instruction, I need a hypnotist or psychiatrist ::)

Anyone here of that persuasion, how do I drive a fast lap (for me) without either, a) Bruising my palms on the wheel, b) Locking my neck muscles so tight I can hear it crack :(

There's a glass ceiling for my driving and it's down to this total inability to just drive in a relaxed manner, it's just as bad hot lapping on my own as racing online in a league race ???

That sounds pretty bad AdrianD! Maybe take a beer or two to relax a bit before you start driving. Obviously not too many or u end up like me posting messages on this forum at 03:44 rofl! :D. A lot of Darts players do! ;)
Some Valium might do the trick too, but I wouldn't suggest that to be honest, u'll end up with completely different problems then, hehe!
1 Good tip (I think) is to NOT drink coffee before u start hotlapping or league/online racing. I did that once and my left (braking) foot was trembling all over the place while I tried to hover it on the straights. Caffeine is no good for racing, hyped up enough already I guess.

T

I've just watched the Anders replay, and feel the need to apologise to Popabawa for a tap I gave to him - sorry mate :( I didn't realise at the time that I'd actually hit you - looked completely different on my screen at the time.

That's very decent of you - cheers!

I can't remember swearing at you during the race so it can't have been that bad  :D

Server replay time: 814s

This one has me totally perplexed. The Alfa of PG, who's leading, is lapping Edza's Mini, who is moving left for Sodra having exited Gislaved. As PG starts to pull alongside, Edza suddenly pulls back to the right, making contact with PG and almost forcing him off the track.

I wonder if there was an element of warp; I find it hard to believe that Edza deliberately chopped Pero, but that's what it looks like on the replay.

Edza — penalty — contact with Pero Grozni — 2 places lost

Feel I should apologise to Pero here, was using the car mirrors (not the virtual one) for this race and I thought he was passing me on the left so pulled right. Of course he wasn't and I nearly spoiled the race for him but I'm using the virtual mirrors from now on I tells ya!

Sorry Pero

That's no problem at all.  :)
Things like these always will happen and aslong as it is not intentional I dont mind them. I didnt even loose any positions or anything - all that had happened was that the race got a bit more interesting with Jeff getting right back up to me and we had a great fight than.

Cool, good to hear there wasn't any places lost there Pero...
<whew>