SimRacing.org.uk

Season 22 - Porsche Super Cup
Race 9, Salzburgring


The race track was first opened in 1968. Lying in a narrow, alpine valley, it has a rather simple layout, with two long straights plus the sweeping and fast "Fahrerlagerkurve" ("paddock turn") at the bottom, and the narrow "Nockstein-Kehre" on the top. In spite of its simple layout, it garnered a fearsome reputation for the high speeds reached on the straights and the "Fahrerlagerkurve". Aussie 500cc great Wayne Gardner won here in 1987 on his way to Australia's first modern motorcycle racing World Title. This track is fearsomely fast, even in the Porsche, at some points of it's layout. Should be fun!.

Due to declining numbers, we will run this race on ONE SERVER only.


Please check the Season 22 pages for details (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=335&theme=6) regarding rules and the Porsche Super Cup (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=342&theme=6) pages in particular.


The Server password is at the top of the page.


Team 7                            
  1. Fulvio Policardi
  2. S-2173
  3. Nicky Ickx

Supercup Pastit Porsche      
  1. Phil Thornton
  2. Francesco
  3. Arf^3

Ecurie Makika                    
  1. Stefano62
  2. Matti96
  3. Tom Guerot

Team Shadows                  
  1. Sergio Lonzar
  2. Axel Cookie
  3. Jason Blito

Clark-Hill Racing A              
  1. Ronnie Peterson
  2. Geoff65
  3. HappyAl

Clark-Hill Racing B              
  1. Steve B1rd
  2. Vosblod
  3. Screwcutter

Hiki Waza 1                        
  1. Evilclive
  2. David Rainier
  3. Miniblood

 Hiki Waza 2                           
  1. Bob Whitwell
  2. wrinklydms
  3. Badblood

Team Coyote                      
  1. Raoni Frizzo
  2. Jonny O
  3. Du Fossa

Team NVRacing                    
  1. Natan Vix
  2. Ron-C
  3. Hendy Nichols

Team LOL Racing                  
  1. Tristan Bot
  2. Maxime Lenclen
  3. Pierre D

Team Squadra Padova Corse    
  1. Piero Mercaldo
  2. Roberto Teso
  3. Marco Mercaldo

7Porsche7                            
  1. Alex Barresi
  2. Pedro v.d. Berg
  3. ??

 
This Porsche Super Cup Race will be run on 1 Server only, under Pro rules and will be approximately 50 minutes in length.
Lap 1 will be fully moderated to the end of the RED ZONE, for this race, the entire first lap as there are many places where contact is possible. Thereafter will be reported incidents only.

SERVER
Race List = IGOR
Server =  UKGPL_T7_2
IP address = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 27/04/2012
Time = race starts at 9:30pm
Track = Salzburg76 - here (http://dixierunners.speedgeezers.net/Salzburg/)
Variant = GT67-Porsche 910
Damage Model = PRO
Qualifying time = no later then 9:00pm UK Time (30-60 mins practice, race starts at 9:30pm)
Race length = 43 laps
Password: see above (#post_event_password)


Race List =
Server =
IP address =  
Race date =
Time =
Track =
Variant =
Damage Model =
Qualifying time =
Race length =
Password: NIL (#post_event_password)


Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R;group=342;theme=6)

I can't make this one as my Mum is coming to stay!
I will start the server though.  :angel:

T7 server is set for 43 laps Long race and listening on Igor in Console session with OpenGL_V2.

Probably I won't race tomorrow cause I am out of town and I won't be back home in time.
Ciao

Thanks Fulvio, sorry you won't be there.

 :( cant take part as well , there is a birthday-party on I shouldnt miss .
 :D :D wish you all a great race !

I just found that this race will be 43 laps ~ 60min at a 1:21 laptime.

Is this intended?

Just for making things clear. Is it allowed to wave during engagements making a block for drivers that have an opportunity to overtake ?
Ultimately it seems to be a practice I've seen often.  :P

We have this rule in our Etiquette section....


"Blocking is not allowed, but defensive driving is allowed.

If a driver moves off the racing line before the car behind attempts to overtake, this is defensive driving.

If they move off the racing line after the car behind has started to move across to overtake, this is blocking. If a driver is driving defensively they may move off the line and back onto it only once per straight/section".

If you feel you have been blocked Sergio, report it and let the mods take a look...

Did I mention in the mid season review that the Porsche Super Cup had descended into a joke this season? Well boy am I laughing after that collective shambles into the first bend  ::) Early bath for me, commiserations to anyone else whose race was short lived and good luck to those still running. Ciao.

I was victim of the same accident, J. Blito bumbed in to me.
Looking at the replay, Jason could not see the accident (and me) because of the bend there.
To bad, was looking forward to this race!!
Sorry Alex no points from me.
Cu at Monza 1000K.
Greetings Pedro.

Yeah proper shambles that Ronnie (Ray).  I just managed to stop before running into the carnage, but you've guessed it, those behind didn't and about 3 cars smashed into me.  For a split second I thought I had no damage....how naive!  As soon as I revved the engine it was clear summat was amiss.  I thought it was engine trouble and soldiered on with a slow car, only managing 4th gear at the end of the straights.  About 2 laps later I was out of fuel, so I assume the damage knackered my tank(s)...ho hum.

Looking at the replay it seems one driver (nameless for the minute) hadn't seen the carnage and steamed into the cars that then hit me..

Bob.

Very competitive times and a very close grid.  Can't win it on the first lap so why the big rush into T3?  I got caught up in the road block but luckily my car survived the carnage.  I was making good progress until a screen freeze on about lap 10?  Pity, with all the crashes I was probably set to pick up some decent points!  

I think my screen freeze was probably because I had the graphics detail turned up too high.  It doesn't seem top matter how good a computer you have, it isn't wise to put the graphics above half way.

Grats to the finishers (if there are any).

Sorry to miss all the goings on here. Crap night at the job and a very late finish put the clamps on my race. Sounds interesting though.......

Sorry 'bout that Pedro - I was well aware of the potential for trouble at the hairpin and actually had gone on the brakes quite early but as you have rightly guessed the accident ahead was out of my vision and there was nothing more I could have done to have avoided joining it :(

First of all I have to say a thing. I watched out the replay because I was one of the first driver to end the race almost before to begin it. At T1L my car had a strange movement (never had such a movement before) so I thought maybe a driver have touched me and instead...my replay told me the crash was due to me so I have to give my apologies to the drivers from 8th position down to the last one (in other words, who was behind me on the starting grid).
This year has been a disaster for me. I hope next year will be better (and it is not much difficult to achieve this goal).

P.S.: If I can say a thing, I appreciated there were all strong drivers on only one server. The brake bug tortured me all the way before and during this event and maybe only now I got rid about this problem.
Congratulation to the podium and to my team mates Axel and Jason, all points Team Shadows have, are coming from both them.  :clap:

Sergio - what is this brake bug you've been referring to?

I ask because I'm still trying to work out what happened to me last night. By the pure luck of starting on the left hand side of the grid I managed to avoid the carnage on L1, and stayed with the lucky ones who got away. However it all went wrong on L2;

Firstly, coming into the hairpin, I braked - but mid way through the braking I had the sensation that I wasn't going to stop. In the end I did go a bit wide but got round and headed off up the top straight. However at the end of it, again I had the sensation that I wasn't going to make it, and sadly this time I was right - I hit the inside fence at quite a speed, and took my front left off. Knowing that there had been a bit shunt on L1, but not having seen anyone disconnect, I tried to drive my 3-wheeler round for a while to see if I could steal some better points for the team (assuming others were about to retire), but it very quickly became apparent that this wasn't a great idea and I retired just after the pits.

Of course, both these incidents could have been down to me misjudging the draft, or just plain missing my braking point, but that wasn't what it felt like at the time, so I'm interested to know what Sergio's brake bug is to see if it might have anything to do with what I experienced - it just felt like the brakes weren't doing anything very briefly (but enough to cause a disaster). Can't say I've noticed this feeling before.

Congrats to the podium, whoever you are. Commiserations to the victims.... Special congrats to Cookie for Q3 - is this a favourite track, or have you become an alien??  :laugh:

Nice to see a full server for a change - well done to the mods for the (sad but correct) decision to use one server.

Arf

Immediately after the fracas at T1 last night, and throughout the race I wondered if I was responsible for the mass pile up that saw many forced to retire.

I was so concerned throughout the race that it might have been me that I actually remembered to save the replay, something I normally NEVER do.

This morning I watched the incident again and was relieved to see that it was not an error on my part.  :whistling:

I got a good start from somewhere like 8th or 9th on the grid and used the draft behind Clouds ( I think?) to get close to his tail. We were both on the right hand side of the grid and as long as we stayed that side of the track we should have the inside line around the hairpin. My intention was to tuck in behind him and make sure that no-one could dive in between us before T3.
As we took the first right hand kink he suddenly seemed to lose speed, so a quick check of prib/mirror and a look left and I eased out into an empty space in  centre of the tarmac and my momentum quickly carried me alongside and put Clouds into my blind spot. I thought that I should be almost past him and it was as I tried to ease into the left turn that I felt a slight contact and my car was spun to the right and off onto the (very wet grass). By the time I had slithered to a stop and turned it around there were cars everywhere although mine was undamaged.
OOPs! I though "was that me??"  :o

I rejoined the race and slowly made my way up to 5th place at the end after Natan discovered the braking bug on the final lap and gifted me his place.  :scooter:( more about my views on the bug below)

On watching the replay it looks like Clouds put a rear wheel wheel on the grass just as I passed him and that twitched his car to the left, which  clipped my rear and spun me around. I left the track at high speed and cleared the way for the carnage that ensued. If he had not made that small accidental error that sent him across the track, I think everything would have been much less dramatic.


BRAKING BUG..my thoughts...............

The notorious "brake bug" is something that a lot of us have become victims of in the GT's. Almost everyone was complaining about it when the mod was released but gradually many have evolved setups and driving techniques to reduce its effect.

What you describe would fit what many of us have experienced.  You approach a corner at high speed and know you are going to do some heavy braking. In any of the other mods (65,66,67 or 69) you would expect to stand on the brake pedal, either to scrub off the speed and make the corner, or lock up the wheels and go straight on in a cloud of tyre smoke.
But, in these GT cars it seems that you can get something that feels like sudden brake failure, such that the car refuses to slow down and the steering feels ineffective.?? I guess that is what you discovered last night? The point in the braking zone at which this kicks in seems to be very critical and once initiated it almost always ends in a trip to the scenery.

I have not come across any info from the developers of the GT mod, but I wonder if they tried to simulate the effect of the extra weight of these cars under braking.This brake bug seems worse with the Mk4 GT Ford than with the Porsche IMHO, but that might be just my imagination ::) .
The nearest comaprison I can offer within GPL, is what you get in the 67 mod if you have your suspension set too soft and it bottoms out. Something that most of us have experienced at the bottom of the dip at Mosport? the car just seems to lose all control and plough straight on.

Some of us have discovered that to reduce or overcome this "braking bug" the GT cars need to run with much stiffer suspension, bump and rebound settings, which strangely enough the setup page allows ( maybe a clue there?). Also, I have found that your braking technique needs to adapt for the GT's. In most of the open wheeled mods you can be pretty brutal with the brakes and suffer no consequence, but with a GT car I find that to get the optimum braking you really have to "feel" the brakes and avoid any possibility of a locked wheel. Demon late braking is a very risky move because of this "bug".
So a very smooth and gently progressive braking action to ease off the speed, is far more reliable and effective. Also I try and get OFF the brakes before I attempt any turn in ( something that is not 100% necessary in open wheeled cars).

So, although it has been labelled "the GT braking bug" I am not convinced that it is a flaw in the software, but rather something that makes the GT's a little more interesting to drive and possibly an attempt to reflect the extra weight of these cars when you are trying to stop from close to 200mph?

Yes Arf, you seem to have experienced this "brake bug"...
Under heavy bracking sometimes the front wheels just lock and and stay locked, you slide forewards with no control.

Thanks for the compliment!
I do love those tracks with sweeping fast corners but it was my first race here.
The team work with Sergio made me better in setting up my car and I found a perfect setup for quali and race.

I knew a good tow would be essential in quali to get a good time and I got one pretty early, but Piero and Ron did so too a little later...
We were within 99/1000 of a sec  ;D

My start was ok so I did the first 3 laps in 4th position with Tristan following close.
In the Semperit hairpin we had a touch that left me on the roof...
I had mentaly finished the race, when the car suddenly turned over and was back on his wheels  :o
No damage but some places lost.
First I had to catch Arf who helped me going a little wide and then I was in the chase of Natan with Clive in a yet save distance following.
This was a great battle with Natan for several laps, he fought fair for his position but I finaly succeeded to pass.
After this I made a little gap that gave me the chance to keep Clive in save distance.
I knew he wouldn't  have an easy pass too...
The last laps I made in save mode and just controlled the distance to Clive to cross the line 1 sec in front of him.

One of my best races I ever made!

THANKS

a special thanks to those  caused the T1 Accident, and all those  have crashed my my car. I have not seen the replay yet. necessary should be cautious in the first lap, but somebody dont care about this

Brake bug have had some explanations that are all right but the one it seems pretty the same of mine is the one of Axel. At final I've found that bug (at least in my case) was due to...deflated tires, that means I didn't take care about the pressure of my tires and this just to have a temperature gradient almost uniform across the tire contact surface. I didn't understand why also getting a tow from Axel I could not close on him along the straights while there were parts of the track in which I was clearly faster than everyone (fast corners) except one, the infamous T3L in which I was experimenting the brake bug 5 times out of 10 in every of the tens different setups I've tried. The response was simpler than expected, I had to inflate the tires because they were too much deflated! And...that's all folks !!!
About my accident I only can say, I passed through the same place tens of times without any problem but this only time (maybe because of could tires or I cannot say what either) the car has begun to wave not out of control and immediately after the kink the little jump made bad things got worst making me loosing control and...so on.

There is sadly, a flaw in the software, which causes the brake bug, to sometimes bite in these GT's.  It's weight related, so removing their motors might help.  Other ways to unlock the problem have been discussed, amongst the community.

It's not widely known or considered, how many parameters there are to work with, in GPL physics.  It's a complex package, and amazingly realistic in it's modeling!  And that's allowed the realistic creation of all these amazing mods.  But running heavier cars, was not originally intended, and along the way we've leaned, that even GPL physice are not perfect.  Future mods should not suffer the same symptom. :hammer:

I took a very careful start and let 2 or 3 cars overtook me before turn 1... but it was not enough !
I saw the "carnage" and several cars flying in the air, so I brake hardly and one of the following car, I think it was Piero Mercaldo's car, torpedoed (I like this word I just learnt, thanks to this forum :) ) me !
Hopefully I could continue the race ...but very slowly (my best lap in race was 1'27/1'28, against 1'19''99 during qualify).

I hope I was not a trouble when other cars took me one lap and more, I made half the race on the grass to allow them to overtook me without any risk :)

With 19 cars and on such a narrow track, I think the best would have been a rolling start (if not for a complete lap, at least until the exit of the hairpin).   
 

When Porsche races cause constant carnage, a one reset rule should be considered, on the mid-Season thread.

Yes...rolling starts for all the 1st lap could be a solution also for me. I love normal starts but...if this is a problem, we have to think to something better.

personally I think rolling starts would solve a lot of our t1 problems in all our divisions and leagues!

Reliability of a simulation model is very important and unfortunately this of GT's cars is not! The GP mod is out since a few years and nothig has been done on a known infamous bug.  :P ::)

The trouble with trying to fix the Gt's brakes, is that as soon as a change is made, it's likely to affect other parameters.  You then have a different mod.   And it wouldn't be a simple job, so would've take time away from future mod work.  It's not ideal, but a good racing driver adapts. ;)

While I'm here, it's worth mentioning that rolling starts, at Ukgpl were adopted for GT's, mainly because the Chaparrals clutch is weird, and unrealistic :o  Porsche's don't have that problem. 

Uhm...many mods have been built without this problem so...why GT's cars have this sort of problems ?

The GT's are heavier than single seaters, and the symptoms were new, and unexpected.  I also suspect the pay cheques were insufficient, though I wasn't on the GT mod payroll . ::)

Are there any problems with the import? :o

No Cookie, it is just that my eldest son had a confirmation weekend so we had visitors and it is my younger son's (miniblood) birthday today - I will try to do it tonight but it will be late.

All done - sorry for the delay.

Tight championship for the Driver crown...

But this is a team event with a clear favourite...

I don't think anyone is going to catch those Corsican bandits....

Pro, Amateur and Novice (ahem)

Hello,
I would like to know itself will be published the reply of the race, I have some doubt to take off.

Thanks for everything.

Piero you can download it here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season22/PorscheSuperCup/) in about 30 minutes ;)

Thx ;)

Apologies to Roberto, who for whatever reason, feels I hindered him not once, not twice but three times during qualifying. I must confess to being somewhat surprised as I was simply focused on my own time and setup. Sorry again.

I have nothing against anybody, I do what I believe right.

I don't want to waste mine and others time, both during race and qualify, looking at who brought me problems and how happen, I try do my part as best as possible and if, for any reason, I'm in a dangerous position for others, I try to go out of the way as soon as possible, time for reflection come after race.

When I look at the replay, retrace steps of race, episodes that involved me and  take decisions, trying, whenever possible, to be reasonable, then I commend to the jury, which surely give an assessment of the facts more objective than mine.
Mistakes happen to everyone, it's important to learn from these to improve and avoid them for the future.

No need to apologize.

Could not agree more with the first point but disagree totally with the second. Sorry again if you feel I hindered you.