SimRacing.org.uk

WELCOME to the UKGPL Season 23 - Porsche Super Cup - Race 2  

We celebrate our 3rd season with the attractive PSC Team Championship and I hope we will have fair, clean and close racing.
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

The second race of this season is in the Cernes Wood, a challenging fantasie track with a narrow road and some tricky trees.


We have the Rolling ZONE for the start where no overtaking is allowed. (Read the registration thread!)
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/6199/cerneroll.th.jpg)
There will be full moderation of lap one Red Zone and reported incidents for the rest of the race.

Please submit incident reports within a week after the race so that the moderators report may be out before the next race.
Full time team drivers have priority access to the server.
Driver lists can be found on the Porsche Super Cup (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=369&theme=6) championship standings page.
Please restrict your chat to a minimum!
______________________________________________________________________________
Please ensure you are aware of the new in-series penalties for this season.
Details are here (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=10879.0).
Drivers incurring a penalty will receive a PM informing them of this
______________________________________________________________________________

Race List	=	IGOR
Chat room	=	#UKGPL
Server	=	UKGPL_8
IP Address	=	TBA
Race date	=	13-07-2012
Qualification Time	=	30-45 mins ~20:45  UK time
Race Time	=	race starts at 21:30 UK time
Track	=	Cernes Wood  cerne (http://javinester.co.uk/gpl/cerne.html)
Variant	=	GT -> Porsche 910
Damage Model	=	PRO
Race length	=	~50 min -> 30 laps
RED ZONE	=	full first lap->finish line
Rolling ZONE	=	from the start to the straight after the esses (T8L) -> picture!
Password	=	see above (#post_event_password)
Replay	=	you will get here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/replays/Archive/Season23/PorscheSuperCup/)

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There are more than 19 drivers registered, so the full time team drivers have the priority!
The R1 drivers have to leave the track for ~5 min with 30 min practice left to let waiting FT team drivers join!
Drivers with no team may join if there are spaces left after 21:05 UK time
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


It was impossible to form complete teams for all the registered drivers, due to the missing novices, so I let all teams race as they are:

Porsche Cup teams as they stand at 26/06/2012

  Team Squadra Padova Corse
  1. Piero Mercaldo (FT)
  2. Marco Mercaldo (FT)
  3. Smudge (FT)

  Team Shadows
  1. Sergio Lonzar (FT)
  2. Axel Cookie (FT)
  3. G.Giovani (FT)

  Team 7Porsche7
  1. Alex Barresi (FT)
  2. Pedro van den Berg (FT)
  3. Francesco Molteni (FT)

  Team Makikas
  1. Mark Barresi (FT)
  2. Ronnie Petterson (FT)
  3. Stefano62 (FT)

  Team Pulse Racing
  1. Ron Clegg (FT)
  2. Nicky Ickx (FT)
  3. XXX

  Team Hiki Waza
  1. Hristo Itchov (R1)
  2. Paul Bird (R1)
  3. Paul Badblood (R1)

 Team LOL Racing
  1. Tristan Bot (FT)
  2. Max Lenclen (R1)
  3. XXX

  Team 7 Racing
  1. Fulvio Policardi (FT)
  2. Skymole (R1)
  3. XXX

  no team yet

   tom_g (R1) PRO racing for Team 7 this race
   natan5 (FT) Pro
   EvilClive (FT) Pro
   Jason Blito (R1) Nov
____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
There will be 2 short test races at Wednesday 11th of July 21:00 UK time with BREASTS at IGOR

(https://uvgu1q.bay.livefilestore.com/y1pn5GYn5t46Y-_Tb2e76uHRKKK2wBBsLN2ziz8DjMYqnW86WzGvxq6M4PtHa7302NmbZlhjXTivlHcBQuE9Zpc2LeS3yGlreEF/map-cerne.gif?psid=1)

Perfect Sergio! :thumbup1:

I hope this answers all the questions we had in the pre race chat ;)

Hi all ,

I'm free on next friday, is there any possibility for me to race with you ?? ;D
I've posted in the registration thread too ... but i don't know if it's mandatory to join a team ....


Thanks :)

ToM.

Hi Tom,

yes the team is mandatory, but you can join as a reserve in any team for a missing pro driver.

If a team wants you, you can drive for them but it must be published before the race ;)

Tom,

You can always join the race to drive as a 'guest' but you may have to be nice to Cookie...

Ok :)

So ... any team have free place for me ?
Let me know :)
Thanks

ah ?
guest drivers are allowed?

LOL

Team drivers take priority Tom and it would be good if you can drive for a team but there should be room on the grid. I have processed your registration.

OK tanks :)

Tom see my answer in registration team :)
Ciao

If there is another team that needs a PRO driver I can offer myself, I will try and get into chatroom early so that I am available, but if not I might have to impose my company on my wife for the evening.  ::)

Why is the rolling start only half a lap? Not everyone will check the forum to see it... And when are we gonna get a problem-free track for a change? Wasn't cerne quite screenfreezing? Not to mention low fps... If you know some patches, let me know.

Why not create a Hiki-Waza #2 team, Evil?

 :laugh:

 :)
black screen at L3 . looks I havnt sorted out my Win7 probs .

BUT . and I do say this coolblooded : I am sick of Hristo`s GPL behaviour .brutal rear shunt at T1 lap 2 .
man are you trying to top 2011Hamilton ? dont you know you allready have ?

who is the pilot   that made mad  maneuvers , and not caring about other cars come????

Definately it was me , getting in your way M.Mercaldo . Sorry for that . See my intention was to get my car out of the turn , cause I blocked nearly the half of the street and going backwards was the only way to do . Of course I did had a look at my pribluda to see how close cars are behind me . Unfortunately Pedro and not you was the next on prib , so I started my move . ( same as you did move backwards into my way couples of seconds later ) .
However , as it was my action causes a collision with you , I did submit an incident report against myself .
Still unsure what is to do best in that kinda situation , wait or move to make it less dangerous for the following drivers .

Talk about being unaware. Sick of my brutal behaviour? Provide evidence before you speak nonsense, Nicky. You've not uttered a single word before to me, not complained even once, but now suddenly you post such an outburst here?! Let's see how many yellow points I've had over the past few seasons and how many you had. Most of the incidents I'm involved in are not my fault, otherwise I'd be all flashing yellow, wouldn't I?

You had as much responsibility for yesterday's incident as I did. First of all, you were driving so defensively on the lap before the incident that you were changing lines in an attempt to keep me behind in almost every corner, compromising the pace of both of us and forcing me to brake and lift up all the time to stay behind. Then as you had a worse exit off the last 2 corners you braked much much earlier than normal for T1, and even though I myself braked earlier to give you some buffer, it was not enough. Still, I would have avoided any contact by simply moving to your inside which I attempted to do, but nooo, you again had to block by going diagonally towards the inside during the braking zone, robbing me of any space possible. I went into the inside dirt edge but obviously there is no grip there.

Before you open your mouth with your lack of understanding and blame others, try to look into your own driving first...

Grats to the podium of Tom, Mark and Sergio. Great drive Mark, unfortunately I blew my engine, a bad habit of mine.  But 7th was probably no more than I deserved. See you and hopefully Stefano at the next round.

After this race I'll be the holder of penalty record! Yeehaw! I worked hard for this, so I deserve it. First I loaded a virus on Nicky's computer, installed a gremlin in Ronnie's engine, punctured Cookie's tyres, spilled jam, cakes, honey, candy and all kinds of delicious stuff on the sidetrack grass, put 100157x 100157 mips for the pit transparants, painted the everything brown...yeah, hard work. In the race itself (i had no time to qualify) I messed the rolling start by putting a fake picture in the race thread. On the first lap I rearended MagicArselire so bad, that he flew for fourteen laps before he can stop in a tree. Send francesco to the parking lot, discoed Evil with my magic discoball. On lap three I impersonated Nicky and blocked Hristo for 2 laps, then impersonated Hristo and rearended Nicky. Later on I used my secret warpspikes (i barely found place to install them on the porsche...i hate that car) to take out Pedro and Piero. Cookie and Ronnie were taken care of, but Marco was tough. I had to use every trick learned form the NFS franchise to make him give up. Tom, Mark and Clouds were unreachable due to their superiour protection *insert 500$ antivirus comercial* but I would have finished fourth, quite good place... unfortunately then I realised that i forgot to enter the race. My facepalm was heard over the whole globe, and caused furious teological arguments in the nearest dzen-buddist monastery.

Now, seriosly... anyone surprised that only three people finished? I overslept, but im glad I missed that "race" on that "track".

I find myself now waitnig for James Hunt & Dave Morgan to drop in and submit there race reports  ;D

Grats Tom for winning for T7, :) and thx Sky for cooling down a warming up thread ;)
Ciao

Friday the 13e

I had a Screen freeze in Quali.
The "PRO" driver from team "7Porsche7" Alex Barresi quit with driving the GT-Porsche's.
Evelclive is willing to join our club,
but he qualies just before me and crashes in the 1e lap.
Also Francesco crashed trying to avoid Evil.

At the start I am on the front row 1e on the grid ??
So everybody DQ themselves while passing me in the "Rolling Zone"  ;)

Later on I was hit with the "secret warpspikes" from Sky, and got stuck in a fence.

I found it a great track and a great race for as long as it lasted.
Thanks Organisation.
Congratulations to Tom, Mark and Sergio!
Cu next time, greetings Pedro.

Take 1000 penalty points and go to the bottom of the class. LOL Sky ;)

Yeah Pedro same here!
Sorry for the strange grid, I did not control before...
Funny rolling start of Tom, who seems not to have read the race post, he was about half a mile away when we passed the starting point....

My quali was fine with a little tow of Tristan ;)

Race went well with a fantastic battle with Marc for the second place until I made a stupid mistake in lap 9 running wide...
I could have lift a little and would have been save, but I stayed on the throttle and was surprised when there was a TREE :o
End of my race!

The track seemed stable for online racing, but is very unforgiving when doing a pro mode race!

Sorry  guys , but in to the rolling zone, not had to go at moderate speed?

Of course ! YES!

Now I have seen the replay I can see why things got so stretched from the start. Tom shot off the line like a bat out of hell and obviously those up front who could see him disappearing up the road eventually gave chase before the agreed start point. Meanwhile those further back with no idea of what was going on simply lost the tow immediately and were at a severe disadvantage. Not the greatest advert for a rolling start.

Retired due to a strange phenomenon.At the start of the race my gas was unable to reach the maximum.So on the straight was impossible to use the 5 gear.Someone  that have done an incident can have noticed this.They have overtaken me like lightning.

Grats to Tom Mark and Sergio who survived this race.

Pedro asked me to step into 7Porsche7 team as their "PRO" driver for the rest of the season now that Alex has decided not to continue..thanks for that invite, but I am sorry to hear that Alex will not be racing with us as he was a very quick driver.  :-\

Well..... what can I say?  I struggled to get the Porsche setup right during qually and ended up some way down the grid. I was hoping to drive a careful race and pick up some places as others went tree hugging. ::) which I thought was bound to happen on a track like this. I ust needed to be careful and let the race come to me.......a good plan I thought?

I thought the rolling start was a bit quick and now I know what happened, I can understand why the field appeared to be so spread out. 

Just my luck, that as the cars in front picked up speed down the back straight towards that dangerous right hander, my frame rate dropped to about 20fps!! As a result I totally misjudged the corner and was the first person to go tree hugging!!! ...not part of the plan!!!

I would really prefer if we do a full pace lap on normal tracks and only use the rolling section approach on longer tracks where doing a full lap would take too long. And also, there should be some speed limit imposed, because Tom was going way too fast and went full speed way too soon. The leader should slow down and bunch up the field before accelerating off for the start of the race.

Of course Tom had not intended to do a rolling start!

Marc an I had not followed him in full speed!

The idea of doing a flexible start point is to avoid a T1 like in Cerne...

Usually rolling starts are intended to avoid a heap that could occur at T1 and at the same time they aim to keep the group compact as long as the finish of the yellow zone is reached. To accomplish this, the leader have to proceed at slow speed until the end of the yellow zone, we say in 2nd gear.

Obviously everything can be improved but...it is required a minimum of adaptive behaviour by drivers.

Nice race for me also if I was in the possibilities to do much better first of all remaining closer to the leading group of 4 or 5 cars that almost immediately have took distance from the other drivers and then trying to avoid some stupid mistakes that almost made me throw the race away. I didn't have the necessary time to practice to have at least the possibility to be competitive against Tom and in fact my position down the grid says enough about this practice that I made during the real race, in fact my race best laptime has been better that my laptime in qualify.
It has been an elimination race and at a certain point pribluda has shown me, Mark in front of me and Tom behind me, none else !?!?!? Some tracks needs the necessary respect to be digested otherwise they became immediately a nightmare and so few drivers to the finish line say just this. Lack of preparation. I think Tom will be Disqualified because he has been launched in the hyperspace at the green flag. Lack of reading.
Anyway congrats to Tom and Mark that I followed on the podium and sadness for my team mate Axel who was struggling for the podium too but... he made acquaintance of a Tree crossing his race line  ;D and also to Tristan who has to be considered a Missing In Action = MIA because he vanished in nowhere !  :o :P ::) :)

P.S.: Hey G.Giovani where are you ??...We're here racing !!  :P

Another race missed also for our Jason Blito  :-[

Tom will not be penalized, as it was also the fault of the moderator, not having the "rolling zone" rules explained completely in the race post...

This is not completely true. Let's take a look for this
https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=10783.msg196223#msg196223 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=10783.msg196223#msg196223)

Can the remainders drivers be considered stupids just because they have been following these rules ?  :-\

Not asking to penalize him, but that's a bit selective of you. You jumped on me for my comments for not understanding the rolling zone at Daytona, yet you're being protective of Tom here as if he's done nothing wrong. Even when I didn't understand the zone back then, I went on the cautious side and almost lost the lead, rather than be selfish and pull out a gap before the actual start line.

I hope in the future we set a speed limit and that anyone who is not following it become subject to warnings and penalty. It should not be a strict speed limit, but some speed limit range, for instance 120-170 km/h. It may also change from track to track, depending on the layout.

We should also not use a shallow bend to mark the end of the rolling zone, but rather let the race begin out of a slower corner, otherwise it becomes difficult to judge the moment of acceleration.

And lastly, the leader should slow down and bunch up the field 1-2 corners before the start, checking his/her mirrors to make sure all cars have gathered behind, not just the 1-2 cars immediately behind, but those further back as well. You can see enough cars drawn in your mirrors to do that and I've always done it in the past in the GT division.

It's all common sense really, so nothing complex in the end. Writing it down makes it seem more complex than it actually is.

Oh and, I don't really agree there is much benefit from not doing a full lap and avoid tight corners for the start. With the grid in single file column, there is hardly any risk involved, regardless of the type of corner that happens to be T1 after the start.

Of course it was a fault of Tom not to do a proper rolling start!

The next race post will be clear:
"We have the Rolling ZONE for the start where a moderate speed of maximum ~90 mph (150 kmh) is required and no overtaking is allowed. (Read the registration thread!)"

There was a time, when starts started from stopped.  Stopping them, has not stopped starting problems it seems, so why not restart, starting stopped - it's simpler than this. :angel:

It's not just about speed, Axel... If the leader keeps up that speed all the time and disregards how far the other cars are behind, the cars will spread too much before the start and that's unfair. The field has to be bunched up and that's the responsibility of the leader.

Also, I suggest linking to the registration thread in each race post instead of just saying read the registration thread. I'm sure many don't bother to search for it, but if there was a link, everyone who have doubts would click it.

I agree.

IMO its all common sense!

It is obvious that Tom did not read the race post and had no idea of a rolling start.
I wrote in the pre start chat: "ROLLING START", but he seems not to have got it.

I think we all look at TV the F1 races and so we do well know how a race is restarted after a pace car. ::)

It is also obvious that when you join a community that already has his rules and laws, the 1st thing you should have to do is...become aware of why, what, whom, when, where to move and in case you cannot get all the infos...just ask for !
I've nothing personal against Tom, this to speak clearly, but... if we have a sort of rules then I think we should have to follow them.

A thing I didn't understand. Why Pedro was in P1 on the grid and why he gave up after the green flag ?

Not true. Tom wasn't going full speed either, otherwise he would have disappeared completely right off T1. He just kept a very fast pace and did not wait for everyone to catch up before actually going flat out a few hundred meters before the supposed end of the rolling zone.

The last word to moderator.

A buch of Italian flags here though !  :o :)

It seems the PSC is not very interesting to the English guys !   :P :-[

I don't think he'll do it again ;)

My quali time was good for 13e place!
I found it more fair to give up the pole ;)

Mr Sorry here.

No penalty? What happens if someone else does this in future races, do they get away with a warning as well? Personally I thought it was a genuine mistake by Tom and am not looking for him to be penalised........but as always for me, an apology from him for his oversight would be appropriate!

Whoever takes pole in the next race, if it's not Tom, can put that to the test by making a similar start.  ;)

LOL
Just try it and you will find out...

I try to keep a race post as short and clear as possible because long and  extensive texts will not be read by everyone.
As Tom seems not to be a regular reader in this forum he made a mistake that should be penalized,
but as I made a mistake too, not making a clear definition of the rolling zone in the race post, I think it is fair, to not penalize him.
He was possibly in breach of etiquette but he raced the last seasons without this new rule.

TBH I think we all should be happy to have the best drivers possible in this series to have a challenge for everyone...

In the end it still means you find an excuse to not apply rules. I don't think it's a big deal personally and I don't want Tom penalized, nor I have anything personal against him, but your excuse in this case is very subjective and that's what is bothering me. Had it been myself or someone else break the rolling start rule, you would have reacted differently. I find that unacceptable for a league that's meant to apply rules objectively, without bias.

In the Daytona race, you posted exactly the same type of race announcement, but you never blamed yourself for my lack of understanding back then, so why do you do it now? If that isn't selective interpretation, then what is? And don't take it personally either, take it from a moderator point of view that is meant to follow rules. I would understand if there was some ambiguity and uncertainty as often happens during accidents, but here there is no such thing. Tom violated a rule, period. He's not even excusing himself, you find excuses for himself without even knowing whether those are true or not. It's like you're taking his side in the matter.

What if next time I break a rule and tell you I didn't read it, or that I wasn't used to it because it was not in place in past seasons, would you accept that? Or if I say nothing, would you come up with those excuses on my behalf? I hope you see the issue with this kind of approach, so better change it now while the issue is with a relatively innocent kind of rule breaking.

My statement to not penalize him was maybe a bit premature! So I will discuss it again in the mods forum.

You are contradictory yourself:
"I don't think it's a big deal personally and I don't want Tom penalized"  <->  "Tom violated a rule, period."

Yes I am a human being and try to understand why, but I will not make differences with people out of sympathy!

I'm not contradictory. My problem is not with Tom not being penalized, but with the excuses you present for not penalizing him. It's subjective and selective. That's what bothers me. I don't care if Tom is penalized or not for such an insignificant thing, but next time it may be something more serious where any subjective influence may affect the championship and level of fairness a lot more than this.

As for sympathy, if it's not that, what is your reason to make a difference in this case? Why didn't you mention not having made a more clear announcement post for Daytona when I expressed my lack of understanding? Why did you put the whole blame on me? I'm sorry if I can't see your reasons, but they are not obvious.

The reason for making an exception is that we (the Moderators) were not explicit in making the rolling start rules clear. In fact, there are no 'rules' as such relating to this rolling start. Accordingly we can't penalize Tom. When we make the requirement to do the rolling start clear in the race post, then anyone who ignores that can be penalized.

The Moderators were faulty in not being explicit, Tom took advantage. The same situation will not arise again.

I absolutely don't agree. We all knew about the rolling start. Only one driver didn't know due to his lack of information and...casually he won ! Probably he would have win anyway but...maybe not. All drivers have been damaged by this behaviour also if involuntary because each drivers earns points for a Team. Shadows Team is spending many hours in training with a goal to reach but a wrong decision, taken lightly or at a wrong time can destroy this goal, so I think you should have to consider this as well. We are playing a game but...seriously!
Have the right decision !

Then I again ask, why was it not considered a "mistake" for the Daytona race and instead I got criticized for not reading the race announcement post? It was written in the same way as this one, because this one used the other one as a template. Even if there is ambiguity, if someone does not understand something, they can always ask, and even if they don't, they can choose to act with slight self-handicap in mind rather than take advantage of it. That way the whole burden would end up on the organizers rather than a single driver, and there won't be any unfair outcome for the participants. You did not take responsibility for writing an incomplete and ambiguous thread for the Daytona race, yet you use that as an excuse here. I just don't get it. It looks like bias to me.

Which is the difference between normal starts and rolling starts ?
Why on the track map there are shown two parts with two different colors ?
These two things already are sufficient for Tom to suspect there was something strange in this race if he gave a glance on the race announcement page.
What does it means rolling starts if he flew away immediately at the green flag ?
Why he didn't suspect something looking in the mirror that at 2nd corner there was already a gap of 3 seconds or more with the guy in 2nd place ?
I don't know if Tom was in the iGOR chat just before to join the server but if he was, why he didn't ask anything ?

So in two races we have passed from an overzealousness (Hristo) to no zealous (Tom). Someone said the right way is always in the middle ! :)

Sorry, but why the rolling lap is not a WHOLE DAMN LAP?

I dont get it. You post a picture of a track map. To figure out what the picture says, you first have to know the track...and some come in the race completely unprepared, without ever driving said track. Also, some people cant figure out what is what just by the map - when you are on track it looks completely different, so you have to learn the track, look at the map, see corner by corner what part of the map shows what part of the track and then figure out where the rolling lap finishes. I'm not saying anything, but for some ppl around here that is too much work.

So why everything is so complicated? Why we cant have a full pace lap? No one will be bored by it, even if it's a track like nurby or spa; it's a time to prepare yourself psyhically, to focus and relax. Why is not possible for the pace lap to end at start/finish line? Why it has to end at corner? Then some will start at end of corner, other will go at the exit, some in between. Is there actually a race somewhere in the world where the race starts randomly somewhere? That's why the s/f line is there anyway, and everyone can see where it is. True, s/f line is usially at straight, and acceleration is compromised; but in venues where pace lap is used, its even part of the strategy to have a optimal gear for the end of pace lap. Whoever comes more prepared will have advantage... what is wrong with that? Instead, now we have the most unprepared having the advantage, and they wont neceserely be penalized for that.

BTW, I had a funny idea: If the lack of pace car is the problem, you can do so, that at green flag, nobody moves; instead, they wait for the car qualified last to overtake the whole field and take the lead. Then the rest of the field follows that car for the pace lap, until the car enters the pits. Race starts, and the car qualified last rejoins form the pits, last, where it started...  Not that it will work, too much discipline needed.

I can't help thinking that if Tom had simply posted a comment on the forum after the race apologising for the misunderstanding at the rolling start, then the moderators could have got on with their job and this would have all been forgotten by now.

The fact that we have heard nothing from him and only his side of the sorry saga through the moderators is compounding a real sense of injustice from numerous parties, including myself. After all he did win and end up with 50 points for his team after pulling a fast one on the entire field!!!

On the subject of rolling starts I think the only hard part is remembering that there is one and surely that is not too taxing for most. The instructions could be more detailed in the race post, but I think the recent maps provided do an excellent job of explaining where the start of the race is located. As for leading the pack at a reasonable speed up to the start, it seems like common sense to me that you need to keep the pack together up to that point. However, while subjective in the absence of a max speed in the race post, I think we can all agree that the pace Tom set was too fast and he clearly gained an unfair advantage.

For me it is duty of every Drivers to get informed about any race, is his responsibility doing this. All the information necessary are written in the race announcement page and for me it is a surprise to know that people arrive directly on track at race time apparently knowing nothing about the race when at least a week early we make little races on the track opened by some of us. The rules are written, we have only to follow them and...in case they are not clear enough...just ask for also in chat.  
I've another idea: why don't move all right cars from right to left and left cars from left to right and also the front grid to the back in chequered pattern or better taking in count any car color or driver's ages !?!?!?  ::) :P

True, but as is the case with these partial rolling zones that do not cover a full lap, as Sky pointed out, it can be interpreted differently, regardless of how much you explain it. When there is not clear reference point such as a s/f line, it's impossible to keep everyone within the same rules of behaviour during the rolling start.

We've done a whole season with rolling starts back in S21. I can't speak about S22 because I missed it, but back then there were no issues regarding T1 accidents. That's the whole point of a rolling start, to avoid accidents on the start, because we run in single-file column, so there is enough room for everyone. The only incidents were due to people zig-zagging, overdoing it with throttle, going too close to others, but all that has nothing to do with running a full rolling lap. I hope we get back to normal and do full rolling laps, just like every series in real motorsport does, and abandon this unnecessary complication that only seems to breed more discontent.

Fulvio and me have participated also to the GPFun67 championship since several years and there...we've always used rolling starts shown in a modified map picture like the ones I've posted. This has been the 10th year for GPFun67.

It takes a single person to have misunderstood it and you have a ruined start. It's MUCH simpler, practical and easier to just say "this division uses a rolling start" and everyone will know the race starts at the s/f line, without having to read any threads, use a map, try to figure out where exactly the starting point is and so on.

Hm... Tom_G is Marco Casadei, right? From my team? Team 7? Why is Supercup team 7 not the same as team 7? Oh, why I bother asking...

I dont know him actually...he is replacement for Fulvio. In registration post Fulvio says Marco is not good at english, and explains to him some things in italian. Its possible that Marco doesn't visit the forums regulary, or doesn't like forums at all. He might even be unaware of this argument. He might have misunderstood something or everything form the race post. He might have not understood anything said in the race chat. There's that side of things too.

Next time make sure that your race post contains: 1. Circuit history. 2. Entering teams 3. Brief (3000 words) description, listing all track corners in case someone doesnt know which way to turn at certain point 4. Server info 5. Rolling zone info, with animated pictures, distance from s/f line in meters, yards, light seconds, inches and centimeters, required speed, required behaviour, penalties for unproporieate behaviour 6. Translation of each of the above points in italian, french, german, hebrew, bulgarian, russian and spanish languiges 7. Transcription of the all above in brail alphabet and morze code, to not discriminate the incapitated in our small community 8. Anything else I might have forgotten...

Or you can stop overcomplicating the rules and make them just a tiny bit self explanatory for a change...

Yes it is obvious.

Then what is the solution ?

Awareness !

There are people that have lost time writing down any race announcement and to me it is necessary read this stuff before any race.
I don't say we have to memorize all threads but...at least the race announcement yes.

For some tracks make an entire pace lap is unpracticable, I'm thinking about Spa, Nurburgring, IOM, Interlagos and so on, thus in any case it is always necessary a to take some decision establishing where to start the race after a rolling start.

The simplest thing (that I prefer in any case) is to start normally, but like we've seen, it is a promise to have a heap at T1 with 50% of drivers involved.

To clarify who is Tom -> http://gpltom.libertux.org/index.html

And yes its a pity he seems not to read all this  ::)

We can always use a more spread out grid, like the one we had in the Historic Trophy race for Monsanto this season. The cars were very spread out and it helped avoid bad situations at T1. Essentially though, one has to draw the line somewhere. Drivers can learn and drive more cautiously, and avoid accidents. No point to baby-sit to such an extent...

We are not excusing Toms behaviour - it was unsporting but it has highlighted a gap in our race posts. I wouldn't have thought it necessary to make the format of the rolling start explicit, especially since several of you are fond of telling me that you don't act like children.

It has, however, proved necessary.

The only reason it proved necessary was because of using a format that is unnatural to any form of motorsport. Had we used a regular rolling start where you do a full lap first and start at the s/f line, then there will be no excuse for any driver not to conform to that. If they do, it will be clear they didn't read the rules for the division, rather than wonder whether a specific race announcement thread provides enough info or not. It's like s/g, pitstops, handicaps and all other kind of division-specific rules which you get to know before you do even a single race. With the rolling zone rule, it differs from track to track, therefore creating risks of misunderstanding every time.

And for long tracks, we can just have a standing start. It's not that much of a big deal IMO.

Seems to me, the reason rolling starts have been made for these cars, is because Ukgpl drivers, are either not good enough, or not careful enough.

A problem all GT's have, is their realistic sound - you sit under a roof.  Because of this, other cars are quieter than usual.  Everyone needs to realize this.  Your ears will not help you so much.  Is there any other good reason why they would have trouble starting?

As some drivers have not been safe enough, new penalties have been made this season, to slow careless drivers down.  With these, Porsche's should not need rolling starts, or are our drivers simply not good enough ???

Also in GPFun67 there were very very good drivers but...at last they've decided that a rolling start would have reduced frustrations of drivers very strong that were spun out track loosing any chance to gain a good placement. SO I think at last it is better struggle on the track than on the grass or worst upside down.

I'll show you a map chart taken from GPFun67 championship race at Hockenheimring:
(http://www.gpfun.net/public/forum/uploaded/lucavarani/201226123954_201041214100_Briefing_hock67.gif)

1st lap only
Red means No Overtaking and low speed (leader in 2nd gear to form up on him in sigle line).
Yellow means No Overtaking and normal race speed.
Black means normal race.

We have the Yellow zone that is similar to the red zone of GPFun67 but we don't have the Yellow zone of GPFun67 because our red zone means the entire 1st lap is modded.

Depends what is meant by good/bad drivers. For me a good driver is not a fast driver, nor is bad driver a slow one. I know many fast drivers who are very bad racers, who weave and block and are unaware of car positioning, and for me that in the end means a bad driver. On the other hand there are slower drivers but very fair, predictable, responsible - a pleasure to race with.

I agree with Martin - we have a new penalty system that is meant to take care of any bad driving, especially for drivers who repeatedly cause trouble. The idea is not just to penalize, but to force such drivers to see through their mistakes and improve if they want to race for the positions their pace suggests, instead of starting from the back, serving pitstops, etc.

As for GPFun, Sergio, I think such a system creates artificial kind of racing. It creates a parade for the first lap and it can lead to trouble if someone makes a mistake, loses speed, and you're not allowed to pass. As a result you lose ground to those further up ahead and that goes against my idea of racing. It's much more practical to either have a normal rolling start without any additional rules imposed, or a standing start.

It's similar to the shift-r allowance in lower divisions which really seem to spoil quality of racing because drivers know they can get away with bad driving, that it won't cost them the race and they can simply reset. When drivers with such habits enter a division where resetting is forbidden and apply those habits, it leads to unwanted situations. In that same sense, it's much more useful for long-term sake, to put drivers in conditions where they have to be responsible to avoid accidents, rather than the rules doing it for them by creating artificial gaps or preventing normal race pace through a tighter corner.

The Privateers division has very few penalty points given to it's drivers, and numbers have grown in recent seasons.  As a racer, I want as few restrictions as possible.  Red zones, amber. zones, controls, traffic lights!  Something is wrong when all of this is needed.  :blink:

Wait wait Hristo, who loses his position during yellow/red zones must rejoin on the back of the group and the others don't have to leave room to make him regain his position lost either, nor wait for him to retake speed. The meaning of yellow zone is only for trying to avoid contacts untill at race speed.

Anyway I've seen races beginning from standing start and with no accidents and others with starting constraints ending in a heap at 1st slow turn.  :o

About the artificial kind of racing...I agree but our driving, strictly speaking, is artificial, we've not real feedback and sensations like in reality so we have to adapt ourselves.

Complicating things unnecessarily if you ask me. Can't we just have normal racing where everyone takes responsibility for being a good or a bad driver? Let the penalty rules deal with the rest.

Yes but...words are words and the reality is often different from theory thus when you're prepared and someone push you out of track, the balls begin to turn like a propeller in a Helicopter !  ;D  I don't know if I was clear enough :D

Sry for not speaking early, but my Bell palsy is keeping away fom pc. :(
Tom (Magig Arsouile) isn't Marco Casadei (Cico71) thjat hasn't registered yet.

I asked Tom to race at my place for T7 and he agreed. Now as Team7 manager I ask that the team doesn't receive point from Tom's partecipation at Cerne's race for breaking rules.
I hope this put a stop to the long arguing and we can move on. I've difficult to read all the posts about with only one eyes. :(
Thx for the attention.

P.S.
Tom please post your apologizes please.

That's part of racing. You rely on penalty rules to take care of it and move on. Why else do you think I was asking for stricter and better graded penalties for so many seasons? We finally have them, so let's see them in action.

The problem is not Tom, but the way this situation has been interpreted differently than the one in Daytona, and the kind of excuses we are given. If it's not Tom, it could be someone else. I doubt anyone has any problem with Tom himself. He really did deserve to win this race, being so much quicker than anyone else.

I do not really understand what happened in this race, and I do not try !

Just to say Magic Arsouille is not Tom (Guerout)  but Tristan (Bot) ;)

It is definitely Tom we are talking about!

Rolling start at Daytona was VERY confusing. No such problems at Cerne's which is why it is disappointing that advantahe was taken. Tom is good enough not to need any extra advantage and I believe that he misunderstood the (unwritten) rules. As such, there cannot be a penalty but we will not fall into the trap of letting people 'misunderstand' again!

did you send him a private message ?

Sry I misunderstood between our two French friends, also my brain is failing, not only my eyes  :-[
Ciao

Guidelines for rolling starts...

The car on pole will lead off the grid and maintain a steady pace for the 1st lap around 175kph  

It is the reponsibility of the lead car to ensure that all drivers are with him as he approaches the final corner.

I never raced in the GTs last season and am not racing in them this season. But when it became clear that the PSC this season would be using rolling starts I made myself  aware of the basic guidelines above which were written down regarding rolling starts for the GTs in Season 22.  Sure they were obviously written at a time when a full rolling lap was used but I assumed the etiquette would remain the same regardless of where the start point would be located.

How come there are yellow points and dropped points for this round, yet the results stand provisional and there is no moderator report?

This comes from a moderation finished but not yet published ;)

Now the moderation is published!

"The victim made no mistakes and was driving their normal line at normal speed. The shunter made no allowance for the victim whatsoever. The shunter was in full control."

The shunter, as reported, tried to avoid the accident by going to the inside and even went off track, thus making an allowance. The victim moved diagonally towards the inside. The shunter was not in full control by that time because you can't control a car completely in such a situation. But whatever.  ::)

I find it funny how you gave a warning for an identical situation in a previous race, yet here you give me 2 places lost penalty and disregard facts. It gives me a boost of motivation to look towards future races moderation.

No penalty - that affects the race result.

No apology - despite forum requests and personal messages to Tom to comment on this race.

No thanks - happy as ever to abide by the decision of the moderators whether I agree or disagree and move on. However in this case I will move on and wait for next season.

In addition with Mark having parted company with UKGPL and Stefano struggling to appear as well I think its for the best. Good luck Stefano if you continue!

See you all again next season.

Hey Ronnie...why did u decide to leave for this season ?...Just keep a little patience more, the season is at the beginning it is a shame if you decide to give up now.  :P :-\

Hi Sergio.

PSC is not working for me. The Works , Inters and 66 mod series are keeping me busy enough so with regret I'm withdrawing. Good luck to yourself and everyone else for the rest of the season.

Hi all,

sorry for my late reply ... i was in holidays  :P

about the rolling start  :  i've understood that we just have to be careful and don't overtake.
Sure i started my race normally without trouble ... it's just at the end of the first lap that i saw that all drivers was very far ...

sorry sorry

++