SimRacing.org.uk

PLEASE NOTE THIS WILL BE AN F2 RACE. SHORT QUALIFYING SO DON'T BE LATE
On holiday – No?
Bored with the Olympics – A bit?
Need some spice for your Friday night? Here is something for the committed GPL racer – an [ALMOST] full length Grand Prix in the 1967 Formula 2 mod. Run on Pro settings, staying power & consistency may just count more than speed. Free choice of chassis.
Due to the extended race length qualifying will be a minimum of 15 minutes with race to start at 21.15 UK time.
Pleas take extra care in the first few turns – it’s a marathon not a sprint!

Race list	iGOR
Server	UKGPL8
Date	03-08-2012
Race time	Race starts at 21:15 UK time
Qualifying time	Min 15 minutes, starting no later than 21:00 UK time
Track	Snetterton (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=7173&st=0&p=65855&#entry65855)
Mod	Formula 2
Damage model	Pro
Race length	60 laps

As a Fun Race there will be no password or moderation for this event. No shift R – it is Pro settings.


The replay you will get here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/replays/Archive/Season23/FunRaces/)

80 laps - holy cow... Greco-Roman wrestling has never looked so attractive!  :D

80 Laps  :o

That's a whole seasons worth  :P

Do we get use of pause button  ??? ??? ???

80 laps with no shift r. Not many finish this one:)

Hi there,

great to do a Race here with the famous 69x Mod.
I will be there!

So long
Andreas

On second thoughts .... 80 laps could well extend the race beyond 1hr 45 mins. Using a scientifuic formula based on cups of tea & average bladder capacity of GPL drivers I think 60 laps is probably more appropriate. Should bring us in around the hour & a half mark.
Still less sweaty & more exciting than Greco-Roman wrestling!
I don't expect there will be many finishers - but hope there will be a few starters.

60 Laps - WIMP!  :D

Cant even get 5 laps before screen freeze , 3 times on the bounce using McLaren  ???

Its the same whichever car I run with screen freeze marathon even happens in the pits ( 69x is the pits )

Just tested  67's using the same track and no probs , so gota be something with 69x mod , guess I will be sitting this one out  :(

Same here, big freeze!
Only Solution was Computer-Restart.

Bernie / Andreas,
Thanks for the feedback. It seems as though the combination of 69X & this track just don't mix very well.
The mod team is planning to run a few other 69X races in the season break. So we can still have a race I suggest we change the Mod to Formula 2 - everything else stays the same - Snetterton 67. Minimum of 15 minutes qualifying with Race proper at 9.15. 60 Laps on Pro settings. Free choice of chassis.
We did an F2 Race here pre-season so it should not cause any problems.
Main Race post will be changed!

IMO it's much safer to change to another track instead of changing to another mod. It's mostly the track which causes screen freezes, not the mod, so changing to F2 is not making it safer in that aspect. I've had freezes at Snetterton in other mods before.

I also prefer changing track instead of mod.

Göran

I prefer to change mod instead of track... if we change track, we will end up with either montjuic, silverstone or brands, because we have no other working tracks left. And if we change mod, I wont have to reinstall 69x again, cause it starts crashing a week after I install it...

On the other hand, lets do 69x on brands hatch... then I'll have a excuse to not show up and instead try to figure out what I'm doing wrong at nurby...  :scooter:

Hristo / Goran,
As the race is tomorrow evening I think it is too short notice to change the track. We did a couple of F2 races in pre-season at Snetterton & I'm not aware there were any problems. I think this is the best compromise in the time available.
There are a few 69X races planned during August, so you'll get a chance to run this mod.

Hristo , I don't see we can blame the the track as we have raced here so many times with 65's & 67's and with problems whatsoever afaicr  ::)

F2 is fine by me , not sure how long I will survive for though , my body wasn't designed to do 60 laps without a siesta somewhere around the half distance mark  :D

there was some talk on the mods forum about the carsets and memory usage and freezes and crashes , the consensus was that the those gpl mods that have larger carsets do appear to suffer more .

you have to remember that gpl will load all the cars (and those seasons that have option cars those also) at start up just incase somebody picks them , so as a rule of thumb the light carsets 67 65 will suffer less than say 66 69x .

john

Can we have tea breaks?

That maybe so,  yet you'll never experience screen freezes on a original Papy track, so it's track related as well.

we aren't talking about a papy track here , maybe you should re read what i said . so unless you only want to run papy tracks maybe you should listen to what i said and not jump to the wrong conclusion .

john

I'm saying it's not just the heavier graphics of the mod that may be causing screen freezes, but that it's also down to the addon track, and Snetterton is definitely more prone to freezes than other tracks. Nothing about insisting on us running Papy tracks at all, you should know by now I prefer addon tracks.  :)

when i say larger carset i'm not just talking about high res gfx but the ones that have more cars slots than 67 and 65 that only have 7 slots , later mods have far more slots and appear to have more lock ups and freezes .

the v2 rasterizer does appear to have less lockups than the older ones with mods with more slots .

john

Am I understanding this correctly? ( probably not  ::) )

 I am curious about the freezes and lock-ups that we experience because there does not appear to be any definite pattern to why and where these things happen. All I know is that it is extremely frustrating for all concerned when it does!!!

From what you are saying John there appears to be evidence that the 69x and the F2's , because there are more chassis options that need to be loaded, require more memory (RAM) and this could be contributing to freezes and lock-ups. Presumably the same could apply to the GT's because each car has more detail and therefore more data to be held in memory?

Logically then, those people with more Ram and faster processors on their computers should be less likely to suffer? or does it also require the server to have extra memory capacity.

I can see that running a highly detailed add-on track with one of the memory heavy carsets  must impose a greater load on the client computer, but probably not so much on the server if it is running in "light" carset mode with minimal detail turned on for the circuit.

It would be interesting to log screen freezes against the circuit AND the carset in use and then compare this to those who were disco'd/frozen to see what their client computer spec is. After all we all know that AV kicking in mid-race hijacks the computer and almost always ends in tears, so if things are borderline on computing power for the bigger carsets they must be more vulnerable to failure?

Or am I reading too much into your post??

I wonder if it's about Video RAM, rather than regular. I have 12 GB of RAM and 512 MB Video RAM, and I get freezes as often as everyone else.

And yeah, that would be very helpful Evil, if done, but it would require everyone who has freezes to always report it, and someone to keep gathering all the information over time, so we can assess it later on.

i'm no expert but only only have 1.5 gb of ram, dunno about video but the card is an ati 1150. i think your fones are more powerfull. i dont get screen freeze, a little at new riverside and a bit at cernes mabe.the two extremes of hardware suffering similar symtoms? i agree must have raw data to compare.
Anyhoot, i do declare the the lotus 48 will not go round snett in less that 1.28.0 >:(,this is now a fact so no need to argue. gggrrrr  ;D

By screen freeze we mean total hang up of GPL where you have to either close it via the task manager or restart your PC. We don't mean FPS going down or momentary lag. When it happens the frame freezes or goes black, and whatever was the last sound you heard (i.e. engine) goes into an infinite loop.

That is an awesome amount of Ram Hristo!! 12Gb!!!. I only have 4Gb I think!!??............ but anyway as I understand things, GPL is more reliant on processor power/speed than RAM, certainly as far as video ram is concerned. Something to do with the rather ancient original code for GPL, which was written pre 1998 when computers were somewhat less exotic than they are today and graphics cards almost non-existant!!
I suspect, in my own humble way, that it is the code within GPL and it's inability to transfer graphics load to the modern graphics cards that might be the stumbling block when asked to handle the increased load of a highly detailed add-on track and a graphics heavy carset?

But then...what the hell do I know???   lol  :wacko:

right gotya, never had online, but there is a lack of homoginouse exposure for me to comment, but I use to get the all the time on stand alone at spa going up the hill, and on different machines. i always (not sure why) thought is was a sound card issue.

You don't load up textures and models into the CPU though, so it's the RAM. :P

IMO, as before, it's a combination of factors responsible for freezes. And one of those factors is always the track.

My UKGPL_8 server  has XP 32 OS and 4GB DDDR2 RAM With Athlon ll X2 250 @ 3000 MHz, this is way more than ever needed ;)
The GPU is onboard ATI 3200 with 512MB shared RAM, but as a dedicated server it never uses it!

For an XP 32 system more than 4 GB RAM are useless as 32 Bit can only adress ~3400MB

ATM I use to race with an
XP32 OS,
4 GB DDR3 RAM @1333,
Athlon ll X4 640 @ 3000 MHz on
AMD 870/850 mobo and
GPU ATI 5770 with 1024MB DDR5 Ram.

Last night I had a freeze at Snetterton but with the error message so I could continue after some seconds.
Those messages mostly say something about memory errors...

Those big freezes as H defines are very rare here, mostly when there are mass disconnects.

well i didn't think there was a problem with lockups with the f2's , which hopefully will become a little clearer with this ...

if you take a look at 67 and compare it to mods

7 slots - 67 , 65 , 69 (old version) , Stratos , ThunderCars (New)
8 slots - can am 71
9 slots - GT
12 slots - f2
15 slots - 69x
16 slots - 66

but as you know that is only half the story , some mods have more complex 3d models like the GT while other have very light (simple 3do's) like 65 and f2 . the handling of the 3d models is a cpu thing afaik and that is why some have found them very had to run on older pc's with less powerful cpu's , yet find they have no problems running f2 .

now about the gfx , i believe that the whole carset gfx are load when you join a session online because there is no way of tell who is going to join (if it didn't do this , then it would have to do it on the fly when people would join) . this means those mods with lots of different liveried cars all need to be loaded , also some mods have cars that only appear at some races in a season these will also be loaded up even if they cannot be used .

before brands hatch was "fixed" for the GT's and during the process some things became pretty clear to me , the first is that the v2 rastorizers are less picky with little problems than the v1 options . tracks that have things like silly sized gfx can make the v1 rasterizer crash but not the v2 .

at the time it also appeared that people running d3d had less crashes than openGL , however this might not be as clear cut as it sounds as those running opengl mostly ran nividia and those running d3d had ati (now amd) .

i also think that freezers have more to do with the amount of memory on the gfx card than the main pc memory , my pc still only has 2 gig ram yet i run a 1 gig gfxcard . yet i hardly ever have a lockup or freeze even when testing less than optimized mods .

so if you are getting lockups the first thing i'd try is running v2 rastorizers if you aren't already , next if you are running opengl to try d3d .

john

It is likely to be related to video memory as you say, JR. Although I'm still experiencing freezes sometimes, it happens less often than on my previous PC which had half the video memory. I've always been running D3D and v2 rasterizers since they came out, but I was and still am getting freezes.

For example, at the 65s race at Cerne's Wood, I had 4 or 5 freezes in Qualifying which was insane, and I noticed others experienced that. In Qualifying I was lucky not to get a freeze, but others did. The track is heavy on objects (mostly trees) and textures, so it has to be related to that, and also I guess drawing distance plays a big role, and Cerne's setting for that seems to be rather large.

@Axel - it's not only when you get mass crashes. The mass crashes usually occur when the server itself suffers a lock up or some problem with its connection, but freezes are a local thing, so game clients can experience them at any time.

Look, I'm running gpl with 1.5 ghz p4, 500 mb ram and 32 mb vram... now, the fact the videocard is only dx7 might help compability or something, but with direct 3d v2 rasteriser the screenfreeses are rare... infact I think I had about 2 the whole last year. And I'm sure that with right settings your more powerful computers should have no problem at all. You just need to modify your settings when some risky track comes up, or have a backup .ini with these settings.

Maximum nimber of sounds to 4, detail level slider to the halfway, turn off anisotropic  filtering, antialiazing and tripple buffering, turn off 32 bit graphics and it probably will be much more stable... GPL's problem might be that it loads graphics and sounds in the psyhical memory or even the cache when it is not infact needed and there is space in the vram...

69x actually has much more slots... 15 cars, but each with 3-4 liveries that are actually separate models I think...

The amounts of RAM you all have are largely immaterial - we ALL have way too much RAM - the issues are usually to do with mismatches in screen drawing instructions and buffering - once the screen cannot re-draw you are stuffed. It is almost impossible to chase these kind of problems down...

Best approach may be to just stick to tried and tested and save 'new tracks' for either fun races only or early rounds. That way a screen freeze should not decide the championship.

I almost never have screen freezes and I am fairly sure that there is come correlation with the quality of the internet connection. Anyone ever frozen offline? I haven't, even with 69X and 19 AI at dodgy tracks...

Good point...

Could it be the bandwidth patch that draws more cars? I always thought that's involved and would be a good idea to test a couple of races without running, on tracks that are notorious for freezes, with heavy mods such as 69x too. I know you see all cars offline all the time, but perhaps it's the popping in and out of view of cars which is causing some issues, in addition to other factors.

Anyone know what exactly do those Ginetto fixes do? Do they reduce drawing distance or is it something else? They don't always work, but they seem to for some tracks that were previously prone to causing screen freeze.

Could be...

Not sure about the track fixes but I know that some tracks don't have continuous data that allows the tracks surface to be drawn 100% of the time, 99% isn't usually a problem...

something else , it's pretty simple to change the draw distance with tools that are available , Ginetto's fixes work on problem mips and problems with the track and track side objects . sometimes what happens is you fall between the cracks in the pavement (well yanks would say that .. holes in the tracks is better english) , some track have gaps in the track surface .. things like that causes problems . more modern tracks are better but with more mods kick up other problem (see above) .

john  

The tracks we race on are an amazing illusion.  But track building is very complicated, and errors can happen.  Their ultimate test, seems to be online, with a full grid.  If we want to race them this way, we need to test them this way. :P

In my experience, freezes are track related, but I've had very few freezes, even though my computer is old.  Where I use graphic addons, I look for lite ones.  And ingame settings are lowered, so there is less CPU load - I strongly recommend this. :winkiss:

Montjuich is an example of an unusable track, now suddenly a great track, because of lite graphics, and sensible settings.  We have many fantastic tracks to explore and race on.  Let's not loose them, because some guys must have everything set at maximum, to race.  Do some homework - give these tracks a chance. 8)

I believe I started this particular discussion because I was having severe problems with  " frozen off line " at this track, that with the 69X mod originally scheduled  :)

Well done to Andreas & Bernie for going the distance.
I paid the price for not practicing on race fuel, overran a & got stranded on the banking. No way back on Pro settings!
Any one have problems with screen freezes etc?

I joined the server quite late and then had a screen freeze during quali, so had to crash GPL and restart.

That gavwe me only one fast lap and I got caught in some traffic which gave me a 5th place on grid about a second off my PB here, but not too bad. I got lucky on the first lap by jumping a place off the grid into 4th and conveniently 2nd and 3rd cars tangled at the hairpin where I managed to tip toe through the wreckage to emerge in 2nd place  ;D behind the flying Marcel Cluzel.

I wasted no time in getting onto his tail as he was in the very quick Matra and I had opted for the"comfortable" Lola BMW and I knew he would be faster on the straights. I was pleased to see the gap growing back to 3rd, as the 2 of us exchanged the lead ( and small mistakes). At about half distance it became clear that either one of us would have to have mechanical failure or make a big mistake for the other to get clear.

I felt confident that I could match the pace of the Matra and recover even if I made a small error, so was content to sit about 50mtrs back and just hassle occasionally to keep things interesting  ::)

The big mistake came from Marcel just as we entered the Bombhole and he had a half spin, which should have been my opportunity to go past and break clear.... the trouble was that I had already commited to the corner and my line took me straight to the scene of the accident with no possibility of stopping or avoiding his spinning car and losing a wheel in the process.  :-\ Limped back to the pits and retired :-[

It was a great dice with Marcel for around 30+ laps and we were setting some cracking laptimes between us. A shame that we did not make it to the finish.

Grats to Andreas and Bernie for getting to the flag..."to finish first, first you have to finish"  ;) I really enjoyed the prospect of a longer race and in the F2's the racing is always close and exciting.

Kept going until I had been lapped by everybody - took about ten laps to feel comfortable and then I could lap about 1:30-1:31 - thought I might try and catch Bernie - gained 100 yards and then 100 more so felt that 15 laps might see me catch up (1200 yards behind) but as I pushed it so the mistakes came... twice into the hay at the end of the fats straight - that was OK but then I span twice and past went Bernie. Decided to retire and headed for the pits... and managed to total the car! Fun though.

Not ALWAYS Clive  :D

well i had a good half lap! missed the other 59.5 sorry about that. when the next one!!?? 

Hi there,

thanks for the Congratulations! My first win here at UKGPL. Feels good.  :)
In Qualifying I had a big Freeze that forced me to restart the Computer. At that point I thought not even on finishing the Race. After I had only time to set 1 slow timed lap. But then 1 after another quit the Race and I found myself finally in the lead! My biggest opponent from then on was to keep the concentration. So in the end I did it.
Can´t wait for the next race.

So long
Andreas

I also had a freeze in practise , so maybe a server issue there ?

The race was terribly boring for me as I didnt have a proper set up and anyway had decided to race within my own comfort zone , after an age , when I thought I had almost had enough , I risked a peek at the pit board which said there was only another 52 laps to go  :o

Congrats to Andreas , the podium bouys and to all the other stars who finished  ::) , my sincere commiserations to all the losers  ;D

Grats Andreas and Bernie for the finish.

I had a freeze in quali too, had to close GPL via ctrl+alt+del and rejoin.
Does anyone know a way to log such events for the server?

My "race" lasted about 100m when a flying BMW hit me...

Really difficult to log these events automatically. Don't think it is possible except manually.

Just been reading this thread, and I don't know if this has come up previously, but years ago when pc's were 'simpler' I remember a lot of game crashes- all types of games- that stated something like 'not enough virtual memory, please adjust settings'. Does anyone think this may still be relevant.
Also I notice a lot of people restart their pc after a freeze- does the problem persist after the restart ?
Could re-booting the pc clear something like the virtual memory ?

I don't think virtual memory or pagefile is relevant at all... I'ts used only when psychical memory is full, so it transfers it to harddisk...I don't think GPL can fill 2 gb memory, which probably all computers besides mine have. I do have memory problems, but it appears completely different, as CTD when loading track from menu. Once you start driving, the memory doesn't do major swaps, because everything is ready to use. And I havent noticed GPL to behave better after restart.

Virtual memory is used, to supplement the chip ram, with pre-allocated hard disc RAM.  It usually comes into play, when chip Ram reaches capacity.  This is less likely to happen nowadays, as modern computers have large RAM amounts.  Because it's data access is much slower, when used, it's more likely to cause screen freezes.  When that happens, I suspect the virtual disc space isn't the problem, but speed of access. :wacko:

By way of interest, there are  Sims, more graphically intensive than GPL, where, even chip RAM  speed becomes too slow, if data is constantly changing.  Programs have been written, to defrag the RAM, to restore it's speed, without exiting the Sim.  The only ones I've seen are payware, and I've not tried them.

   

Virtual Memory paging is orders of magnitude slower than RAM.. once you are paging you are in trouble but the size of RAM on both motherboards and graphics cards these days makes virtual paging unlikely in GPL. If you use onboard graphics, the RAM is shared between the system and the graphics - that is more problematic but you can change the graphics settings down until you find a sweet spot. Do not forget that playing in 640x480 is much less intensive than 1920x1280 (an eighth as much for similar settings!)

As Paul said, freezes never happen offline. And in addition, freezes never happen on the 11 original Papy tracks, regardless of the mod. It's not so simple as to narrow it down to memory management or whatever.

They do happen off line, as i siad earlier, I used to have freezes all the time at spa, with the orignal release on a standalone machine.

Yeah for certain they happen offline. In particular the 69x mod causes me freezes in offline mode on papy tracks as well as add on tracks. Just had one today at Mosport. But never had one at Montjuich of all places with the 69x mod even with everything running at max detail settings!

ch


Not so Hristo , freezes do happen off line , as I habackground ve stated above . cannot comment on the Pappy tracks thing as I havn't driven (drove) much of the other mods on the original tracks .

Also Pappy tracks are all now so heavily modified from the original form , who knows what effect they have on different PC configurations of MB , chip set , processor type , speed , RAM CPU what have you ?

Often wonder what problems the various  firewalls and AV programms have on GPL , I for one have had a large dose of screen freezes and CTD's which  could only be cured by swapping / disabling whatever firewalls and / or AV's I had running at the time .

I've never EVER had a single freeze offline. I'm quite sure if you did, it's for different reasons than those we get when we race online.

Must be the Ether in Bulgaria  ???

I have never had a screen freeze offline but I have had GPL crashes - these are usually to do with screen saver, anti-virus toolkits, java downloads, windows updates etc etc.

Just a thought here having read the various posts and opinions about freezes and crashes etc.

There seems to be a consensus of opinion that many of these issues might be server related, with the mods which are heavier on the graphics front just making the problem more likely to happen?

Therefore, it might be worth a PM to some of the other leagues to see if they have similar issues with their servers on the same track/mod combinations and have they noticed an increase in disco's???

Although the mod generating team do a fantastic job in bringing all of the new cars and tracks out into the GPL community, I doubt that they have the massive number crunching capacity to test ALL of the software implications and parameters against possible glitches that the major games software manufacturers have? Plus, of course, we are talking about upgrading GPL software on a huge variety of client PCs with any number of possible configurations of patches and mods installed. I can see that with the necessary exchange of info between server/client/memory/graphics it only takes one element to hesitate and things start to collapse. I have often noticed a hesitation on the visuals with a momentary drop in frame rate when racing on line, which I am doubt is anything to do with my 4Gb of ram and 1Gb graphics card and more likely a data exchange issue?

Going back to my original suggestion, I was really wondering if these freezes etc are more to do with loss of data between server and clients because of the ever expanding traffic load on the internet.

Because, if that is the reason, we are all fighting a losing battle until we can guarantee a dedicated internet for UKGPL traffic only??  ::) and why not???!! after all this is VERY important  ;D

Evil, the problem is a dedicated server doesn't run any graphics at all, and there is no graphics exchange between client and server, only car position, orientation, lap times and so on. Still, the freezes seem to be related to some part of the server-client connection, in addition to track and mod issues. And then there is operating system interference, which, combined with variety of hardware, makes for a huge amount of combinations that may be adding to the issue.

Hi Bernie,

you are with OpenGl or with Direct 3D?

So long
Andreas

Andreas , I'm using direct 3d7  :) 

gpl doesn't quite work like that clive when it comes to networking/online racing , while racing online the info you receive from the server and you send to the server , this info is sent via UDP packets which as you know work in a different way to normal TCP type packets . simple put UDP packets are date stamped and gpl always uses the newest packet , packets not received or arrive late are ignored .

where things get interesting is when you or other cars for any reason fail to send or receive packets to/from the server .

if the client doesn't get information about a car in a timely fashion it then guesses where a car is , this is called warp .

if you are driving along and all the other cars blink out , it usually means that you (your client) has lost connection to the server .

also your client computer decides if your car has crashed into another object and not the server !

john

That is great news John  ;D

 From now on, when I run into someone, I can say that MY computer made the error and decided to cause the crash  ::)  :angel-wings:

Hi there,

I just asked ´cause I was thinking you use OpenGl like I did. Experienced a strange thing yesterday. Was on for some offline-testing with the KI. After some laps in Qualy I was on the Start-Finish-Straight and got a big freeze. After GPL did not work any more. I was on Win7. So I tried it on XP, but the same: Gpl has a failure...blah...blah and so on. So I got back to Win7 and tried it with Direct 3d. So what can I say? GPL66 was running very well again and even better/smoother. Before I had some stutter and frameratedrops here and there and now it was gone.

So long
Andreas

i know your joking clive but what you said is totally wrong... it's always the client pc that decides if there is a crash and not the remote pc or server pc .

even network errors can't be blamed on the pc , only the method used to connect to the network . some people that think they can race online with wifi connections that blink out for a few seconds every minute.. we all know what chaos that brings .

john

I am currently an unfortunate wretch, who's stuck using a Wi-fi connection.  If I could be persuaded that this was causing chaos, I'd stop racing competitively.

On the subject of freezes, there's a recent posting at SRMZ about the sounds we use.  Ducwolf is the guy who makes the sounds, for every new mod, and is a recognized expert :

"My recommendation for bingo [everyone] is to insure, that all sounds are at 22005Hz, 16 bit ( stereo or mono ).  This will prevent major problems with PC systems as I described many times before.  This might be the reason for freezes and high latencies in online races !!!"

If that advice about sounds is accurate it does mesh with a lot of instances where the "sound card" was thought to be causing disco issues in the past?

The only problem that I have with Mr Ducwolf's advice  ( as a computer numpty!) is where do I check if I have 22005hz,16bit sounds and how do I change it if I havn't???

A sound answer to soundfile probs, would be to use Ducwolfs exclusively - those cars really howl when I use 'em!  Alternately - open your GPL sound folder, right click on any .wav file, then the Summary tab.  This will tell you what all them squiggles are up to. :angel:

Hello Cap'n Chaos  ;D

Checking my GPL / sound/ *.wav foldders as you suggest and I'm blowed if I can find the "summary tab"

did you mean the " properties " tab ?

even so there is nothing I can see perporting to the number of hZ  ::)

rc on properties/ details gives me the file info as in

lot.wav properties

bit rate 206 kbps

nothing about Hz or 16 bits etc.  :(