SimRacing.org.uk

FYI and perhaps to help with organising any potential upcoming seasons or events  :)

Plenty of info on tracks and cars entered, even with laptimes!  Dpending on which race and year there is some mouth watering machinery to race against when you click on the Touring car and euro gt headings.  8)

http://touringcarracing.net/Pages/1970%20ETCC.html

http://touringcarracing.net/

nice!!

Just remembered another thing to add to the 70's flavour, there is a whole series of 70's tracks available that were created for the f1 79 mod a while back :)
This could give us a ready made championship circuit line up set at the correct period in time.

As an example, how's this for a world series:-

Silverstone 79
Kyalami 79
Osterreich
Interlagos 79
Zaandvort 79
Rouen les essart 70
Fuji 70
  8)

Can be tweaked as necessary for euro gt or rounds replaced with say Watkins glen 79 etc

I would add just GPC Dijon-Preois to the list Mark. It's an absolutely cracking track!  ;)

where do i sign up?

tried every 911 now, all great. Mustang Boss is insanely quick in a straight-line and tolerable braking and handling. Mini's are amazing, Capri is quick but agricultural, BMW CSL is best all-rounder!!!

none of which helps decide what class and/or combination of cars we could run? I think CSL's and 911's in the same class would be unfair

With the exception of the IMSA CSL I've managed to get the RSR and 'big' CSL to within tenths. If we're to try and run handicapping then I see no issues  :)

Period track list for pg3

http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=3834

 :)

try Enna then ;-)

Power tracks will give the CSL too bigger advantage i think

http://78.46.95.57/webpub/GCPnGV3PUB_LapStats.html (http://78.46.95.57/webpub/GCPnGV3PUB_LapStats.html)

Chances are we won't race Enna, although I do enjoy it, but under the '03 Enna stats i jumped in the CSL and went 3 secs quicker to my RSR time. And I pretty much live in the RSR atm

Is that the 24v CSL only though Andy? Could always block use of that and make peeps use the less powerful 12?v  Same could apply to the 3.0RSR if found to be too dominant, as can use the sprightly 2.8 version, though expect the 3.0 is a good match with capri 3.1 and CSL's.
(edit: actually looking at those tables its the capri 3.1 and CSL 24v 3.5 that dominate most tracks!)

As much as its great seeing the whole range of cars on track, its pointless allowing one that is obviously more dominant, as knowing the pattern in sim racing, 90% of drivers will jump in the glory hunter  ::) rather than cars they actually like.

An american league over at r2p is currently conducting their own set of tests with all the 70's cars in prep for an upcoming series. Will see if their data is openly available.

Tracks wise, going through my locations folder on p&g2.1 there are so many mega tracks to choose from. I think making full use of the VLM set of tracks would be a good idea as they are superbly detailed versions and that gives you at least Fuji, Sebring, Mid-ohio and Le Mans (xmas special anyone?!)  But still think you cant go too wrong using the proper track list from the 70's GT european series as per the links i posted earlier. We even have a 70's Monza and silverstone to use.  8)

The BMW 24v, got 4 different engines power and different weights for every model.

BMW Motorsport GmbH: Hp = 431 - Max Torque = 294 (1180 Kg n°001/1190 Kg n°002)
Schnitzer: Hp = 478 - Max torque 302
Faltz-alpina essen: Hp = 425 n°002/420 n°003 - Max torque = 292 (1170 kg)
Herve Poulain: Hp = 425 - Max torque = 292  (1130 Kg)

If you eliminate the Schnitzer, that will be surely better, even if Capri 3100 got 444 Hp and some kg less than all the other BM" 24v models. The Schnitzer, by my experience, is always slightly faster than the 3100, especially in max speed. In a circuit like Montreal, I bet that the 911 3.0 should be easily overclassed by the other 2 cars.

Just another thing Mark. The dominant car for the race at Adelaide, was not the Alfa, that was at least 1.5 second slower than the Escort 1600. If you encourage the faster drivers to take the slower car, it's not a matter. Maybe we need some Legzy tokens again ;)

Cu :)

Yes, the IMSA version with a wider rear track. I can match most of my CSL times in the Capri as well. I know they are in a different group but judging from that website link you posted at the top of this thread they competed in the States a lot with RSR's http://touringcarracing.net/Races/1975%20Mid-Ohio.html (http://touringcarracing.net/Races/1975%20Mid-Ohio.html)

I think the 2.8 RSR might be the best option leaving the Capri's/BMWs in the class above (or block them but that might be a shame) as the 3.0RSR is in no-mans land perfomance wise


Yeah, any 24V one looks too powerful!

The times you posted shows that the CSL was the BMW of North America skin, and just comparing the Fastest lap in race, with the qualifying time of the 1st classified Porsche, there's a difference of 1 second approximately in advantage of the BMW. I can't figure which was the racing advantage for the Porsche in that race, cause that should be due to a good number of reasons. What is sure, is that the BMW was faster, even in a circuit like mid-ohio, that is mainly a "driven" track.

I'm sure that it's possible to find a track in which the BMW 24v/Capri 3100 and the 3.0 Porsche could compete together, but in the case of the BMW 24v (not IMSA) Schnitzer, that become more difficult in a track like Melbourne, cause there's a big engine difference in acceleration and max speed. In a circuit like Monza, Schnitzer BMW 24v, it's probably faster even than the BMW of North america CSL IMSA... if well driven ;)
If Jon will have some time to spare, it could be good to read his opinion about this, and even some laptimes to compare. I would be poorly reliable with the thrustmaster F430 to compare these cars.

Well this does say it all really

http://78.46.95.57/webpub/GCPnGV3PUB_LapStats.html (http://78.46.95.57/webpub/GCPnGV3PUB_LapStats.html)

What does it really says for you? In the link you posted, I see only a list of time in which the first cars are all Capri, and the leader of that classification is "Alan Coccovillo", an italian driver that I know very well on track. If you're talking about that classification, and the leader is Alan Coccovillo, I can say to you that there is something wrong ;D ;D He isn't slow, but surely not the fastest!

At which track are you watching Andy?

lol not that page specifically, i mean you have the tools at our disposal to work it out

Stupid Manteos! I didn't get it :D ;D

I was on the GC server late last night at monza using the 70's cars. In qually Front two places were Capri 3100s followed by two imsa BMWs then yours truly in a 3.0rsr. Think that sets the tone of the cars pace! Didn't get to find out how close I could race them as some idiot punted me off first lap  ::)

The capris were doing 1:58 laps  :o

Even Mark doesn't get it!  ;D ;D

I did run only the 2004 version of Monza in the CSL and in the BMW 24v Schnitzer on GC server. That laptime chart should be used comparing certain drivers in different cars possibly in the same session (practice 1 is a lot slower than qualy), not to talk about the amount of fuel litres and tyres. I was watching the laptime statistics of 2003 Monza, and I just can tell you that if you look at the drivers that run this track, if "Rombo 27" (Otto Legnaro) that is a "legend" of italian Simracing and a P&G beta tester by the v1, is behind Max Caputi is simply wrong if you trust of what you see in that timetable watching just at that "aseptic" list. I know very well both the drivers on track, and I just see that Otto did only 3 laps in an indefinite "BMW 3.0 CSL 3.5 24v". It doesn't demonstrate nothing in this case Mark. Max Caputi is usually slower more than 2 seconds in every track compared to Otto Legnaro, and it does say it all! However, even in the laptime list, the fastest car is still a "BMW 3.0 CSL 3.5 24v", and we don't know if it's a CSL IMSA or a 24v Schnitzer, but I'm sure that if you ask to a strong driver if he is faster with BMW IMSA/24v Schnitzer, or in a Capri in Monza, I bet everything I own that he should answer: "BMW for sure".
It's a really good instrument the laptime chart, but you have to use it as I said before, watching at the amount of laps done, and the session in which they have been done, not to mention that you'll never know how many litres of fuel they had in the tank and tyres, not to mention that almost every car model is different by the other.
I just told in some previous post that in a very small number of tracks, Capris could be even faster than IMSA, but that is not supposed to happen in Monza! Never... If the same driver try both the cars!

Dont think anyone is disagreeing with you Manteos! We are saying that the Schnitzer and IMSA Beemers are the fastest, closely followed by the Capri 3100, i think. Then there is a group (hopefully) of cars on similar pace that may or may not perform better dependant on track.

What we really need is one of you quick (not necesarily alien) hombres to do x-number of laps in all of the 70's cars at the same track and give us some good laptime comparisons  :) That or we just find out for ourselves in a 70's championship  ;) I personally dont like seeing any cars left out the roster as it all adds up to a colourful grid, but in the interests of closer racing its better if something super fast is either left out or handicapped in some way.
Maybe season 1 should be in the slower series of 70's car (or work our way up through the years chronologically ..ie 1970, 1971 etc) for close up racing and winners of the season get to earn a star car for the follow up season? After all, the quick guys will always be quick. Or do like Matt and Tony just did for the BTCC where you get 3-4 rounds of each car (which is great for getting to know and drive a good spread of cars, but also means you dont get a nice full season of your chosen steed).

ps Monza is a great track for the 70's beasts  :)

It was all me. It is the GTC76 Championship. It is a maximum of four drives for four cars. It involves S T R A T E G Y as well as getting you into cars you might not ordinarily choose. It's very, very simple to setup (using Google Tools which is free) with no lengthy time test or car matching sessions. I could set one up in 10mins. When I originally suggested it I was shot down in flames.  :P

 :2guns:

lol couldn't resist sorry Tony  ;)

I literally have splinters on my backside sitting on the fence between the two ideas.

EDIT: just asked about templates for skinning and none are readily available or accessible at all so that takes out another complication. Plus my skinning skills obviously couldn't match what they have done by any stretch of the imagination.

Isn't the same method you used for the last BTC season with P&G? I really like this kind of formula!

If you will add other skins at the P&G, the poor stability of the game would be further compromized. I think that it's not the case to add other skins. Just my two cents ;)

Yeah i agree mate, best left alone!

I'd like to, but haven't had time yet. In fact, I've only had time to do a little practice for league races since PnG3 came out so haven't gone near the Capri & BMW, but the Nogrip GTL Wednesday season finishes this week so I should be able to do some testing soon. What track would you like times for?

I've now finished doing this ;)
Still working through the older cars and havn't tested each and every version of the models available but have data for every 70's car model on the same fuel quantity (in laps) on their softest tires (Very few cars will last 20laps on their softest tires though I suspect).
More than happy to share this if the mods want it  :thumbup1:

I bet they want!  :thumbup1: :thumbup1:

@Jon: I was just talking about Melbourne in that post. I would like to try them too! When the admins will give us a bunch of track in which we can test 70's cars, I will be happy to give a hand for some test, doing some comparison between these cars. However, I think that Tony's idea is still the best IMO. Are there some chances to do 2 race per week with P&G 3 in the future? 1 on Tuesday, and the other on Thursday perhaps  ;D

Not unless Matt gets some serious full time assistance or you run the same race both nights (IMO)

BTC is this season (final round this Thursday) and no it's not the same.

I just read about it, and i still consider that of the GTC 76' champ as a good idea. By my side, to exploit the largest number of cars, I'll make a proposal based on your GTC 76' GTL champ, that is a mix between the GTC 76', and the BTC P&G champ.

As in the BTC champ, we can start dividing the races in 4 groups. In every group of race, will be possible to choose between 4 cars, but you can use it just one time in every race of that group. For example:
1st track group (slow and twisted tracks)
- Franciacorta
- Ingliston
- Ahvenisto
- Lime Rock

1st car group
Abarth Gr 2
Abarth Gr 5
Mini 970
Triumph TR4

For the next races, we could go on with other 3 groups of tracks, less tortuous, in which we will use always 3 groups of faster cars than the ones used in the previous group.

That would imply a lot of strategy, and the imperative to use 16 different cars during all the season, that would be a great thing considering the amount of cars we have in P&G3. The "only" inconvenience would be that this format is not meant to be applied only for the 70's cars, cause we would use even a lot of 60's in that case. It could be used simply for another racing series, obviously not for a so called "70's Racing series", that is the name of this thread... So, maybe I'm a bit off topic  ;D but I'd like to think if it could be interesting for some people this kind of idea.
Just take it as it is... it's only a proposal  ;)

What do you think about it?

The four (or 5 or 6 etc) tracks in a group scenario (perhaps theme to a different country for each group) would work well. Perhaps consider splitting each set of four with a single spec race (I used Mini's).

Eeeek!!!!!  :hang:

I think it's a good proposal

Stig

I second that emotion!

The mini is probably the most brilliant car UK has ever produced, it was a huge commercial succes, and it's a true racing legend. You guys from UK should be proud to race it  ;D

Stig

Yes, we should have an entire championship devoted to it  :angel:

Great if you like underpowered front wheel drive shopping trolleys  :P  they can be fun in a one make race, i admit, but tend to favour those who like driving them or that master the art of momentum racing.

I second that  ;) We prefer over-powered Beetles anyway!  :P

We could just go for a championship of 10 rounds (of usual good tracks - hopefully era specific as MJ mentioned like the F179 tracks) with the top cars like the BMW IMSA&24v and Capri in a different class. The class structure of PnG is to be ignored as all 911s are in the same class and the Escort RS in the same all BMWS etc. I don't mind being the underdog in an RSR then :-) 2.8 or 3.0 and would be happy to moderate the championship with Matt etc  :)

Personally id save all the car groupings for big special events like a 'le man's classic' or Goodwood revival  :) That would be pretty cool with heats of different car groups by vintage or class  8) something for everyone then and could be advertised on other forums to boost numbers.

another idea for an epic series of races on some superb famous circuits (especially if we made them 1hr min. enduros) Most of these tracks would definitely suit the bigger engined GT cars of late 60's/early 70's.  Could alternate it into whatever regular series we run, maybe every 3rd week or something? Only allow cars from the same year (or older) to compete.

World Sportscar Championship season
Rnd   RaceCircuit or Location

1 24 Hours of Daytona
 Daytona International Speedway
 
2 12 Hours of Sebring
 Sebring International Raceway
 
3 BOAC 500 (6 Hours)†
 Brands Hatch
 
4 1000km Monza
Autodromo Nazionale Monza

5 Targa Florio Palermo

6 1000km Spa
Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps

 7 ADAC 1000 Kilometres Nürburgring
Nürburgring
 
8 24 Hours of Le Mans
Circuit de la Sarthe

9 Watkins Glen 6 Hours
Watkins Glen International
 
Targa Florio might be asking a bit much to learn! Previous year had the Mugello 500km and later year had the Osterreich 1000km as rounds, so either could be suitable replacements, or Silverstone.
 

Mugello too was originally a public road course of around 44 miles which was used until 1970. The current Mugello circuit was built in 1974. Difficult to find much info on the original road circuit though.

I have a map of it but to be honest it just looks like any other 44 mile road course.

Re: Championship formats............another fascinating option is to withdraw from choice the most popular car from the previous round. Again no time wasting car testing.

I like this idea! Those tracks are epic. I have managed 2 laps of Targa since it came out! And the most fun was in the Arbarth!

+1  8)

Raced the Lotus 7 last night on a tight twisty track, with failing light , with very changeable weather and 20 other Lotus 7s all within a couple of seconds of each other  :o Totally amazing and easily as enjoyable as anything I've raced. It doesn't have to be fast to be fun  :)

Don't over look Targa just because it's too big to learn quickly - I spent about 3 weeks solid tring to learn it for my GPL rank (Video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GrCq_EJU54&feature=share&list=UUuMKuAPEo5_Tl8bBwmH44OQ) if you're curious) and still don't really know my way beyond Cerda well enough for flat out driving so no-ones' likely to have much of an advantage....

I'm up for all of the tracks mentioned - I'd suggest aiming towards either a 2 or 3 lap race of Targa or to use the method UKGPL did when we held an event there a few years back = An extra long qualifying session and to seperate all the cars out nicely when leaving pits.
Positions are then calculated from qualifying times as opposed to race positions (This is closer to how the race ran for real aswell - I guess if someone wants to spent some time with a calculator you could work out peoples complete 'race' time over the 2/3 laps to have a fully authentic result....

How about something like this for the 70's racing series as a banner:-   :)

(http://i1275.photobucket.com/albums/y444/MJ_p911/sroukSlide3_zpsa17b35aa.jpg)

Yes I like that. Porsches in front of the bimmer is also good to see  ;)

For me the Capri 3100 makes up for any other problems that v3 presents me with.

So long as the GC server is still running and I can go and get a "fix" when needed, then all is well!   :punk:

It has put the FUN back in to PnG.