SimRacing.org.uk

Season 24 Historics (66) - Round 1 - Watkins Glen

The first round of the season will be in the USA, a Papyrus original to get us off to an easy start with none of the potential complications of an add-on track.

Watkins Glen International ("The Glen") is an auto race track located near Watkins Glen, New York, at the southern tip of Seneca Lake. It was long known around the world as the home of the United States Grand Prix, which it hosted for 20 consecutive years (1961–1980). In the early years races passed through the heart of the town with spectators lining the sidewalks, but after a car left the road in a 1952 race, killing one spectator and injuring several others, the race was moved to a new location on a wooded hilltop southwest of town. Later a permanent race course was constructed on 550 acres, overlapping part of the previous course. Despite improvements, the circuit became unable to safely handle the increasingly faster and stiffer ground effect cars of the late 70s and a few horrendous, sometimes fatal accidents and increasingly rowdy segments of the crowd began to tarnish its image. Finally, in May, 1981, several months after Alan Jones had won the 1980 race for Williams, the International Auto Sports Federation removed the race from its schedule because the track had failed to pay its debts to the teams.

Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL_T7
IP address = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 15-01-2013
Race Time = race starts at 21:30 UK time
Qualifying Time = Between 30 and 60 minutes, starting no later than 21:00 UK time
Track = Watkins Glen
Variant = 67F1
Damage Model = PRO
Race length = 50 minutes (laps 43)
Password: see above (#post_event_password)
Replays Available here (http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/inc_replaysS24_js.aspx)
Driver lists and rules can be found on the Historic Trophy (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=390&theme=6)
The track can be downloaded from : original Papyrus track

The full time drivers can start to practice as soon as the server is available.  Reserve drivers can also join as soon as the server becomes available but must leave the server with 35 minutes of qualifying left, for a total of 5 minutes; this will allow any remaining full timers to join.  If there is enough space on the grid, the reserve drivers will be able to rejoin when there are 30 mins of qualifying left.  

Please restrict chat to pit messages including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

The race will be run under PRO rules so no resets are allowed.

For THIS RACE, ONLY 2 liters car could be selected

Moderating The red zone will be fully moderated for lap 1 only. For this event the red zone will be from the start line to the exit of The Loop. Other moderation will be on reported incidents only.  However any incidents that occur in the red zone that are not reported by the drivers will be reported by the moderator.  This will allow all affected drivers the opportunity to present their case before the incident is moderated.  This should ensure there are no surprises when the moderator's report is published and hence appeals will be less likely.  If you haven't received a PM about an incident before the link below the results table is removed, you can be sure that you will not appear in the moderator's report.

Unfortunately I'm on Dad's taxi duties again tonight so I can't make this race.  However there are plenty of people registered so hopefully there will be a full grid.

Good luck on starting the server David.

You know when I say "careful" before the start I don't mean literally stopping before a corner, Art...

Dodged the lap 1 meele suprised to find myself in P2 with ronnie starting to give me close attention , thought I would let him through at the esses and follow in the tow , make life easy , bad mistake  :( 

Short lived fun. I went rightside down the straight to hold inner line , but had no intentions  passing the car who was in front. I braked early , but the car up front braked earlier. I glued the inner line but I just guess the car in front didn t expect a pass..Neither did I actually. Irritating cause the car behind me was so far behind I didn t really need to hold that line as planned( I hate to be forced to hold outer line in the dipper).Anyway it was the mess in front of me who took me out, Even though I managed a full stop to go round . Someone behind maybe got me.
Nice to be back thouhg Gl to the rest of you.

Difficult on lap 1... Settled down and started to catched who settled down and then I watched Billy drive away  ;D

Concentration got me. Slid wide at T2 and the hay bale ate my REAR tyre :(

Fun though.

I couldn't connect through IGOR.
I couldn't connect direct.
I go back to Gem+ and, finally, I connect...  with the wrong car.
I come back with 7mn left to qualify.
I don't find my setups .
I screw up the last laps of a few drivers. Sorry, guys.
On the grid, I realize I came in with the wrong name. That explains the setup problem .
I start at the back without having completed one single lap.
I join the party at the loop but no damage. I lose lots of time though.
When I realize after a few laps that I never get more than 19fps, I quit.
There are days like that .
I'll be back !

I backed off slightly as we approached The Loop on Lap 1. There were 5 cars in front spread across the track and it looked like it might get messy!!
I was right!!  So I slowed even more and thought I had found a clear route through the carnage. Unfortunately the traffic arriving from the rear thought otherwise and I was punted into the fence. When the smoke cleared and vision was restored I still had 4 wheels, so I thought I would continue.

Ye, I had 4 wheels, but one (or more) of them was not pointing in the right direction and the car handles like a Glasgow Docker 6 hours after being paid!! I struggled on for a while but I could not lap faster than 1:11 and was just "in the way" of the faster cars so I quit.

Shame as the qually times looked good for a close race.

Grats to those who made it to the podium and to the others who survived and finished.

Bad luck Pierre.

LOL Clive, I was quite pleased with 1:11...

A bit of a messy race even for some of us that finished. Just managed to avoid the mayhem at the start myself. But I still manged a few pirouettes in the middle of the track during the race. Apologies to anyone nearby who got caught out. Sorry if that included you Bernie. Grats to Art, Al and Andreas.

My first championship start in the 66's & I really do like this mod.
My finish position was rather flattered by the early retirements at the top of the field.
Had an extended battle trying to catch Paul Villiers - got within touching distance & span. Last few laps I had Rainier glued to my tail pipe. I think he had enough slipstream to pass me into the Loop although I braked a bit early - really don't want two Black Night cars in the ditch.
Paul V got a little confused on the last lap & let us both through - I think on the tail of some faster lapping cars. Bad luck Paul - solid race & you deserved 5th.
Will try & do as many of the 66 races as I can.

Thanks for the loan of your mechanic Billy!  Shame I then threw the steering out somewhat whilst turning Clive shiny-side up again at the loop.
(& before that, apologies KH for the nudge from the start - squeezing the clutch was not as effective as the brake as intended...)

Then was 40-odd laps of aiming at 10'o'clock to get something vaguely-resembling straight ahead (albeit it with the juddering/unintentional weaving). This improved after a few laps however & was then just handling like a rowboat on some mild whitewater!     I don't know these cars, but 1:11 was the best I could then muster.


Cheers all,
Dave.

No H, by that it is usually meant 'avoid approaching the first corner in tight clusters of four or more'  ;D, especially if it is one of the corners I am sure we all can recall having accidents at, with some help from others or even all by ourselves.

I am sorry guys for the melee on L1, approaching the Loop I knew I had someone (Florian) on my left although I couldnt see him, braked at my chosen spot for the full tank/inside line combo, but the car had a wobble, and to avoid spinning or drifting into the car on the outside I had to lose even more speed, which caught out first Hristo and then Tristan. Sorry to see so many being wiped off. Cant see much fault on my side, but I guess it will be moderated anyway being in the red zone. Certainly, if you decide to approach the Loop in close company of other 3 cars, you are at least gambling on everyone going through smoothly, which is often not the case...

Royal boredom ensued for me, as everyone was left way behind from the outset; but a win's a win, so I courageously soldiered on  ;D ;D. See you soon.

Art, it is something I noticed in general in your starts and first corners, you leave way too much room and slow down way too much, losing positions and creating bottlenecks in the process. I was already lifting up earlier and braking earlier for The Loop, to give an indication for the car behind, but even though you had plenty of room and was actually on the inside and still in the lead, you kept on slowing down much more than necessary to make the corner, and then of course your car wobbled, which is normal to happen when you brake hard over the transition in the road downward into the corner.

I don't think it's anyone's fault, however considering the pace we normally have at the front, that sequence of actions was subpar. It simply doesn't match the level of pace and control that otherwise produce such fast lap times. See you at the next race.

Well done Paul. At least one of the Blue Moose new boys got some points  :-\  My season has not started too well...again!

I did discover one thing about my ongoing computer probs last night. I suspected that my AV might have something to do with my temporary blackouts, so I used "End it All" before the race to make sure that I had nothing running except GPL and Igor.
Everything ran smoothly through qually with no problems. "AHA! I thought" that has cracked that little problem.

But, just towards the end of qually I noticed the sound was beginning to deteriorate again. Off the grid it was slightly worse, but after the melee at The Loop it had once again layered every car engine,skid,crash and bang sound into one dreadful wall of horrible noise!! It was so bad that I had to turn the sound off completely and drive on instruments ( That did not make much difference as the car was screwed anyway after being duffed up at the Loop).

So, it seems that the AV is likely to be responsible for the blackouts ( turn off AV before racing is easy).
But the sound issue will need some deep investigation, as all the sound software was apparently left running. What is strange is that it seems to be something that controls which sound(s) should be played? Surely that is within GPL? and if the sound card is working and it starts correctly....what the hell is it that gradually screws the whole show?? As I said in a previous post, it seems as if each sound that GPL calls up, is played in a continuous loop on top of the previous sound, so that you end up with everything that GPL has to offer in a huge cacophony.......bizarre!

Ronnie I saw you spinning and slowed but couldnt decide which side to pass , usually a car spins towrds the inside of a corner unless its bounced off something , I went for the outside , anyway it was the luck of the draw , on another day I probably would have got off free and you ended up with a wreck .
My car was handling like a house brick on race fuel and cold tyres and I didnt expect to be up front hence why I decided to give up my position I felt any resistance would have been futile and was worried about taking you out at the loop . So much for plan B  :-[

Evil , have you tried turning your "in game" number of sounds down to one to cure the problem ?

What you're lacking is some sound advise . . . . new soundcard drivers?

Thanks mate,
that was a good start for me in the Historic-Season. But first in the Loop I found myself outside towards the Armco and later on in the Big Bend I had another close look at the scenery around. In both cases my Race could be finish.  ::) After that I managed to go for second spot. But then Al was coming on strong! About the whole Race he put the pressure on me, but never did any risky or silly manoeuvres. A really good, hard and fair battle was it!  :) In the end he finally got me and I think it´s well deserved.
Looking forward
Andreas

......well....I brake early   ;) .....but .. :o ???....you know the rest....... :'(....

....I can't say "well done" Art..... :-*

...".bravo" to the survivors & podium ........thx to Org.

.see you in Spain ....

Hi,

well my first 66 race went fairly well..  first time out in a 66 and first time getting some points for "TeamBlue Moose"


to be honest, I'm very happy.   qualified near the rear... as per normal, did a 1:11 or so on full fuel etc so knew i wasn't going to go much better so decided a start near the rear would be safer than try hard to move up on the grid and perhaps be an accident looking for somewhere to happen. ( well that's my excuse)

as it was, it turned out to be better for me.  got a slow start and made off to catch everone up when I can upon the problems at T1 managed to get through that lot OK

I'm not very fast, but I can swerve well !!

came upon some more carnage at the loop, again did the "Blue Moose Swerve" again there and found myself in the strange position of being somewhere near the front of the pack. odd feeling that one.

usually only happened to me in GPL due to warp or a good old clock smash  ;D


at turn 2 i may have just touched a car that was already spinning across the track in front of me. hope i didn't cause any problems for anyone.

after that i settled down to do my best. kept up a steady pace and decided to take it easy and not blow the old BRM up! my tactics seemed to pay off as I found myself in 5Th.  had a couple of fun laps with a few cars but it seems most of the cars left on the track after the crashes were all a bit quick for me, let cars through as they came up on me and when i was being blue flagged etc.

except one little problem that I feel i may be dragged in front of the "boss" moose for... I let 2 peeps through on the last lap.  i only had a couple of corners to go for the 5Th place and seeing them behind me i assumed they were more speeding aliens.. well they were going well, but I made the big bloody mistake of moving over.. DOH! got myself a 7Th due to that error.  Honest it wont happen again  ::)  well i hope not he he !!!

All in all great fun and so far until the mods take a look a good finish for me.

a couple of things still worry me though, I saw one car behind me, I now know it was Billy.  I tried not to deviate from my line too much but I do as a returning newbie to GPL perhaps brake a little early.

I'm trying of course to get back some control and consistency before I try to hard to slap the ol' pedal to the metal..

was worried I may have caused Billy's off. only times i saw him was 1st time in the mirrors behind me and then sideways and spinning.  Billy has told me i did nothing wrong, but it does worry me.  I pride myself in the fact that i try hard to not spoil others enjoyment of our great Sim.. but I do feel it wont take long until I'm up to speed so to speak.

that means a decent rate of Knots... Not warp factor 9.   not yet Spock !

so all in all another good race and a great evening spent on line in superb company.. GPL rules.

Cheers Paul V.

Paul,
Can confirm you did nothing wrong – the point where I span my car was half-way round the Loop (not a braking zone). I think it was caused by me misjudging the amount of throttle combined with the slipstream effect. A bit of a shame as it was shaping up for a very close battle.

I guess the reason I had some thoughts about it was I last raced online quite a few years back.

I think I'm still a bit in the old mindset.

back then you could have a crash even by getting to close to each other. without even contact i remember cars going all over the place, even straight up in the air like rockets.

the other good one was to join the grid for a race and all the cars would be piled up on each other.. those were the days eh  ::)

makes me giggle to remember as many of us still do i suppose racing in a UKGPL race and hoping one didn't get a telephone call, these were the days of racing on a modem with the shared telephone line....

as soon as the phone rang and one of the kids picked up the phone to answer it.. instant "DISCO"

well it get better when my wife firm decided we need an ISDN line at home.  didn't think it would get any better.  ;D


but it does get better and so far Ive had a few fun races and some league races now and have had a rock steady Conn at all times.

I also had some sound issues last night just like Clive. at one point the sound went all muddy and odd.  just mention it as I wonder if these could be connected.

but i guess the sound in GPL even when on line is a client PC thing isn't it ??

Paul V.

so heres to the next one.... F2 at Reims. 

All you say might well be true Hristo, but had you, and Tristan, kept some more distance from the two battling leaders, you would have been able to cater for both my cautious braking and for the slight wobble. Staying so close, it meant you could do something about the first, which I seem to understand you have learnt to expect by now, but not for the second, which was unexpected. Being cautious means just that, leaving some margin for what you cant predict. I have no problems if that is the way you two guys chose to race, but if you decide to take risks, once in a while it will bite you back, as otherwise they wouldnt be risks..In this case, a wobble, not a spin or even half a spin, from the car in front was all it took to end the race of the both of you, and many others. Accepting this and taking your part of responsibility for this crash would help avoiding similar situations in the future, at least just as much as dishing out good advice.

Also, I have had I think no more than a dozen races, so far, when you, Hristo, were actually in my race, as it were. I can recall 3 times, out of these 11/12, where you threw away a race you could have easily won by running into the back of someone else. And in numerous other occasions I read about simlar kind of incidents on the forums. Wheather you want to see it or not, there is a clear pattern there. The mistake you are making IMO, is to become, at times, unaware of the environment you are racing into, where abilities vary wildly, not only from person to person, but within the single driver according to the track, situation, level of attention and so forth. Especially toward the beginning of a race, when people are still finding their feet, this is something I consider worth of full attention, and maybe it would save some disappointment to you as well, if you tried a bit harder to do the same  ;). See you both soon  :).

Art, if I wasn't cautious I would have rearended you before you even wobbled... you slowed down much more than necessary for the car to make the corner, you can check and compare speeds if you still think you were just cautious, because no - you slowed down completely.

As for me rearending people, show me when and where. The reasons for all incidents I was involved in last season were individual and specific, it had little to do with me not being cautious. I am merely driving at my pace, just like everyone else, and I'm not less cautious than anyone else. In fact I'm probably a lot more cautious than at least 50% of the drivers here in UKGPL, but I simply do well on cold tires, out of confidence, experience or whatever reason.

The thing is though, you are just about as fast as me, and on occasions faster, yet when it comes to starts, you are much slower, so how am I supposed to judge your driving when it doesn't make sense anymore?

Anyway, as I said, I was already cautious after the start and on the straight, and I did give myself enough room by lifting up earlier and braking more than necessary, but you have to consider 2 factors - first, I had cars behind, so I couldn't afford to just cruise obviously, and second, despite having more than enough room, you slowed and went to the utmost inside on corner entry, which caused you to wobble, which forced me to brake even further and which then started a chain reaction by Tristan (I assume, haven't checked) hitting me from behind.

To be honest I'm getting tired of hearing how the driver behind is always responsible and I was rather fed up last season when I was blamed for incidents which were caused by people jumping on the brakes way before corners or slowing down excessively, like 20-30 km/h less than their normal speed into a corner. Are we racing or are we just cruising around? Am I or anyone else expected to just slow down and wait for you to gain confidence so you can actually drive the car on the level you normally do outside of lap 1? It's very unreasonable to expect such a thing, don't you think? If we have to do that, we might as well not race at all. Predictable behaviour on track is very important and for some reason there are people who neglect that and think they can just slow down and do whatever they want, and then go on to blame those behind them for not having a 6th sense.

As I said though, it was nobody's fault, it was a racing incident, but I hope you take some experience from this rather than expect us to do something different. I am already doing as much as I can and as much as is reasonable. I haven't won 20 or so championships here by not being cautious, by not anticipating reasonable actions by drivers around me.

Do not forget to post your incident report, if needed, before next Saturday evening.
I would like to moderate this race on Sunday.

I was lucky to survive the lap 1 incident - spinning right through the centre of all the mayhem yet somehow not hitting a thing :P. Rejoined & within a few laps found myself up to 2nd but Art was already miles ahead & going much quicker than I could anyway. After that Andreas soon caught & passed me & we ended up having a great fight which lasted pretty much the whole race. I hung on to Andreas' tail for lap after lap exploring where I might find a way past but it wasn't until the closing laps that I finally managed to sneak back ahead. Seeing how evenly-matched we were, I suspect Andreas will be getting his revenge soon... but it was good clean racing so I'll look forward to the next time :) Congrats to Art on the win. Also thanks to the guys being lapped for letting us through cleanly.     

Just as an observation in general (I haven't watched the replay of this incident so this does not refer to it specifically) on Lap 1, in any race, there is a fine balance between brake testing the guy behind and the driver behind not leaving enough room to allow for a cautious start. The leader (in any situation) gets to set the pace (which doesn't have to be 100%) and whilst that may be frustrating the car(s) behind have to adapt to that which is why the second car often gets punished when speeds are lower than the maximum possible.

That can make moderations seem unreasonable but no one can win a race on lap 1.

In general, we, as Moderator's take the stance that the car behind has the onus on them to effect a clean pass. Baulking a pass, in any way, is similarly frowned upon.

If I strip your argument to the bones, in essence you are asking people to speed up, Hristo. Which, in a racing context, verges somewhat on the surreal...Of course, if people could go quicker, they would. This is what I mean with not being fully aware of the environment you are racing into. Hesitations, small mistakes, over-cautiousness, those are predictable behaviours in an online race. But I see this is something you dont want to fully consider, so the net result will be that people will continue to go round corners at the speed they feel is under control for them, and once every few races you will take yourself out of contention by running into the back of someone. Not very astute as a strategy, and not very respectful as well, considering you are taking someone else out with you by doing so.

As for Paul's comments, the kind of brake testing you are talking about is probably even more unsafe than sitting right behind someone in a braking zone, or approaching a difficult corner in a close group of four cars, and I guess it should be penalised accordingly. The problem with that is that it is much more difficult to police, for obvious reasons. In this specific case, I was actually defending a position approaching a corner alongside someone, so I had all the interest in braking late and going around that corner as quickly as possible. What I did want to make sure of, was that I would slot in as close as possible to the inside, as I know that corner is rather treacherous, and for the guy on the outside it can get a bit hairy if they havent scraped enough speed in time. As a matter of fact, you can see that Florian had to close the corner quite a bit, and still he didnt make it to stay on the tarmac, I have done that mistake myself before. Unfortunately the whole thing didnt go according to plan, my braking was too sudden and the car was unsettled by that, making me lose much more speed than intended. Still, had Hristo (and Tristan...) not been sitting that close behind in the hope of snatching a place at T2 of the race, things would have still worked out. Anyway, I will file an incident report as suggested, although I have nothing to add to what I wrote in these few posts.

Well, I wished I would have been more caoutious and braked earlier in that corner. :(

You have no idea what you're talking about when you're addressing my driving, Art. All of it is based on your baseless assumptions and not facts. Have you actually watched any of my hundreds of races before you jumped to those conclusions? I consider myself extremely aware of everything going on on the track and it has saved me numerous times from accidents that other would have caused, by taking on their responsibility on my shoulders and doing what is necessary to make room for them. I cannot say the same for a lot of drivers, who simply go beyond what is predictable and then expect incidents to not happen.

Have you even read what I posted previously? Did you read that had I slowed down even further, I would have been rearended by cars behind and I wouldn't blame them at all - one does not expect a driver, who takes pole or is on the front row, who goes 20-30 km/h quicker normally, to slow down so much. It's like expecting a Red Bull driver to suddenly slow down to the pace of a HRT, for no obvious reason. It's amazing how you refuse to take absolutely no responsibility for this situation, as if you can do ANYTHING simply because you're in front and others are behind you. And one more thing - why do you assume I am running close to people in hopes to snatch a position from them as soon as possible? Are you suddenly positioned inside my brain or something? I had no intention to even make an attack at that corner, I was merely following you and the other car, waiting to slot behind you in the corner itself.

I'm disappointed... it has nothing to do with being quicker, you ARE quick already and that is what creates the problem. Had it been someone who was slow, I would expect them to drive like you did in that situation, but I find it very difficult to accept that you would always drive like that given that you just take pole position a few minutes before that. I'm not asking people to become quick, of course not. It's about becoming more aware and being predictable. I find it funny that you blame me for lacking awareness when it is your lack of awareness and surroundings on the track which have led to this incident, because had you realized how much room you actually had you wouldn't have taken such a line and braked so much for the corner.

Remember the Works race on Sunday? You had the lead after the start and you had plenty of room, yet you simply cruised into T2 and that allowed me to pass you. I appreciate people giving room, sure, but when they go overboard in doing that it just shows they are lacking awareness of other cars position.

I'm curious at what your definition of racing is, because the way you and Paul (to some extent) present things, it's like you're not interested in racing at all. It's like you think risks should be removed completely and nobody should take even the slightest chance of making a move because there is ALWAYS the possiblity of an accident, of making mistakes, whether by the attacker or the defender. I take calculated risks and 99% of the time they pay back positively. In this situation though, there wasn't even a risk, not even an attack. We simply got caught out by your sunday style driving...

Lol Hristo, you have now gone off completely into ranting mode, I struggle to follow your logic. Must be the first time in the history of the league in which someone is accused of giving too much room in the first corners of a race, though..Anyway, I wrote already what I think in my previous posts, I believe it is explained in a clear enough way, so if you ever wake up one day wanting to actually listen to a point of view different from your own, you can read them again with a cooler mind. As for me, I will continue to give plenty of room to other cars if I am not sure where they are, and I will continue to go around the corners at the speed I feel I can handle safely. At least, now you know it, so you cant say this is unpredictable behaviour...After all, I have started from pole half the races I took part to, and this is the first incident of this kind that occurs to me, it means my driving style on lap 1 must be possible to handle for others...


Yep mate, I know what you mean. If it is of any consolation, I think anyone who has ever played this game has had at least one crash which is a carbon copy of the one you had, me included.  ;D

On a lighter note, I took some time to download the server replay and look at the crash. Now, really, I do know it shouldnt be. But there is something hilarious to it. We had a full house, 19 cars. I flipped backwards through each one of them. Well, except me and Bernie, no one else managed to go through the carnage without hitting something. Not a single car. You see them approaching the corner and you think 'will this one make it..? Missed, MISSED...oh'.  I think Tristan got a nudge from just about every other car in the field, as he was sitting with not many wheels in the middle of the track. When I turn into the last corner, theres still cars trying to extricate themselves at the Loop..I mean, the proportions are epic. This is the material proof of the 'batterfly effect', applied to GPL. 'Given the start of a race, a wobble at the front creates an out-of-scale increase in the amount of entropy through the rest of the field, with catastrophic consequences'. We would need a name for it. The Artiglietti-Itchov effect?  ;D ;D   

LOL Gotta take a lookie at this one  :)

Art, unless you actually address what I wrote, in the same manner I did with what you wrote (denying that goes to show you didn't read my post), it's pointless to discuss anything. It wasn't a rant at all, it was addressing to cover specific points in your posts and in what happens on the track.

WOW - I have now looked at the replay - carnage. Reminds me of Keimola a few years ago.

Lucky we took the less powerful two litre cars or there could have been some crashes  ;D

Moderation report done.

WHAT THE HELL IS THIS ABOUT? I'm really getting tired of this stupidity! I didn't rearend Art at all, I didn't touch him at all, it was only I WAS rearended that my car went into his. He wobbled on his own, by losing control on his own, you can even read that in his report where he admits it. You have to be blind not to realize that. Have you REALLY watched the replay or are you just making things up?

If this is how this season's moderation is going to be after all the ridiculous rulings of last season, I might as well not participate!  ???

I know you're a newly appointed moderator, Dave, but for me this is a continuation from the past season (and some of season 21) where things are not viewed objectively, whether by lack of attention or racing experience, so I find it very frustrating to having to deal with such kind of things.

If you look at the server replay Hristo, there is a reasonably heavy contact between you and Art before Tris hits you. If your client replay shows different let me know and it would, of course, change.

Hristo, if you don't agree with the moderation, you can (and you must) make an appeal.

On the server replay, there is clearly a contact between your car and Attilio's car.
I only gave you a "caution" although it happened during the 1st lap and on the red zone.
We are running in mod "PRO" and we all know how GPL could react when there is a contact.  

Yes I am a newly moderator ...since begin of season 23, (I was Privateers mod67 moderator last season) but I also received several points of view from other moderators with more experience than me.

But once again, do not hesitate to make an appeal and to give your detailed reasons and arguments.

Considering the amount of work the modo has to face, I'm not asking for any official change in the sanctions but after watching the replay from both the TV1 and TV2 cameras, it is clear that it is Cooper who's hitting me several times and not the opposite.
The most amazing thing as far far as I'm concerned is the fact that he's not even on the long list of penalized drivers. 
Does it have anything to do with the fact that the 1st car I hit in the stampede is the moderator's ?  ;)

There's no contact at all, I was just very close to him but his car is sliding because of his mistake, not because I have touched him. If I had touched him he would change direction and spin a lot more suddenly, which obviously doesn't happen until Tristan collects me. You can't judge whether someone rearends another simply by looking at it visually, it may appear that the cars are into each other yet they are not in contact, due to lag/warp, so unless there is an actual abrupt change in direction and rotation, there is no contact. I didn't think of including my client replay because I thought it's so obvious, but I guess to some people it isn't.  ::)

I don't really see the point of filing an appeal every single time, because it means something needs to be changed in the way incidents are moderated initially, instead of always going through appeals to sort things out. It's rather unnerving.

@1:14 you clearly hit Attilio and his speed increases, @1:15 you are hit by Tristan. There is clear overlap on the server replay which several of us have gone through frame by frame. To say you can't judge whether there is contact on visuals alone may have some small merit (but it is usually clear enough) but if you look at the very abrupt increase in speed in Attilios car and the decrease in yours it is clear that some contact has been modelled.

How can you say with 100% certainty that his speed increases because of me and not because of him applying throttle after he lost a lot of speed due to his wobble? On my replay it is unclear whether he accelerates on his own or that I nudge him, as his car suddenly jumps a few meters ahead due to warp. Also, his speed before that warp jump and after that is about the same, and the only increase happens for a split second in between, going from about 130 to 150 and back to 130 km/h. It's difficult to judge really because it goes against normal acceleration and deceleration rate.

In any case, you can't call it a rearend at all, considering it was his mistake that led to a possible contact rather than me simply giving him nudge just like that. It's nothing more than a racing incident without fault applied to anyone, due to Art's unforced mistake and those behind him being caught out by it. To not mention him at all in the moderation as if he has no role in what happens shows a clear lack of objectivity.

There is absolutely no evidence of warp at all. The car movement is predictable and the most logical, and reasonable, interpretation is that you hit him. Anything else is supposition.

Well done David, thanks for your hard work  :)

Yes H, you did hit me, although it was a very slight tap and wasnt enough to make me spin. it wasnt me re-accelerating. I even felt it through the FFB, although it was very weak. I think what ignited the big crunch was Tristan though, who couldnt see I was struggling with the car as it was covered by yours, and went confidently down the slope just to find your car that had been slowed down by the contact/heavy braking. Otherwise you wouldnt have spun either and we would have gone through, IMO. I think Dave was very good at recognizing it, actually (a warning is heavier a penalty than a caution). As for me not being mentioned in the moderation, imprecise braking is not usually penalised, as long as you dont hit anyone. We are back to square one, a little more distance approaching the corner (like for instance Clive was doing), would have saved the race for many. As, of course, a better braking on my side. I will try to be more precise in the future, but precision is more difficult to control than the distance from cars ahead of you, when you approach a corner in traffic.

What I'm saying is it's a racing incident, so I don't understand why it is moderated by blaming myself and Tristan for a "rearend shunt". Rearend shunt means the responsibility is in a particular driver alone, which wasn't the case here. It was ourselves being caught out by your mistake, otherwise nothing would have happened. I put as much buffer as necessary and slowed down as much as necessary, but you can't predict mistakes all the time, plus it was a chain reaction that intensified the outcome.

That´s what I say,too!

Thanks Bernie and Andreas  ;)

I will review the replay a second time (as I did after Hristo comments).


Even if it is supposed to be funny, I don't really appreciate this kind of remark.

Thanks, Dave. What's done is done for this race, but my comments are intended to raise a point which has been an issue in the last couple of season and was not an issue in all the seasons prior to that. The point is, most accidents are rarely the responsibility of a single driver, regardless of whether the driver is behind or in front. Unless it's a blatant rearend where you just forget to brake, there are always other circumstances which split the responsibility between drivers. So I hope this strong agenda (not yours in particular but UKGPL in general) to always aim to blame and penalize someone for an accident is reconsidered for future races.

That is, I think, a very fair point H. It is often the interactions of two (or more) drivers that end up causing problems. The penalties are to try and encourage drivers to drive in a manner that avoids incidents - if we drove in real life like we do on track, we'd all be dead!  :D

True, but since nobody drives to cause accidents intentionally (from the people I know anyway), we have to be careful not to turn racing into a parade. If someone is overly cautious and this causes an accident, you can't just point the finger only at those who are less cautious. It's a balancing act and you can't predict unreasonable amount of cautiousness. Predictability is key, so moderators should aim to recognize when an accident has happened because someone did something beyond predictable and not because another driver was not cautious. I believe most of us are already quite cautious since Pro damage and no shift-r has taught us that. I can't say the same for divisions that run on Int and allow resets, with a recent memory of the Jops Siffert F2 race carnage serving as prime example.