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Practice: 19:20 (GMT) (60 mins)
Qual 2: 20:25 (20 mins)
Race: 20:45 ~ (22 laps)
Cars allowed: Ford Capri 2600, Escort RS1600, Alfa 2.0 GTAm, Alfa 1750, Porche 911 2.5

Track: Hungaroring Download and install this. (http://www.matt-rowe.co.uk/comp/PGfiles/SRou_GTR2_Hungaroring_1.0.0.2.exe) Or download, unzip and install this http://www.matt-rowe.co.uk/comp/PGfiles/SRou_GTR2_Hungaroring_1.0.0.2.exe.zip (http://www.matt-rowe.co.uk/comp/PGfiles/SRou_GTR2_Hungaroring_1.0.0.2.exe.zip)
Time of Day Setting: 13:00
Weather: Dry
Start: Standing

Tyre wear: Normal
Fuel consumption: Normal
Pit-stops: None required

Server: simracing.org.uk P8GT
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

Championship Standings (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=382&theme=34)

Notes:
(1) It's best if all drivers can make sure they are connected before the Qualifying session as drivers on track during qualifying will not see
cars that join after they are on track until they go back to the garage.
(2) Please make sure you are fully aware of the SimRacing.org.uk Rules (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=7) especially the
rules about in-game chat messages.
(3) You will need to install Power and Glory v3 from:  http://gtlw-blog.flyingpig.info/
(4) P&G has no 'Pit Speed Limiter' function.You may go as fast as you like in the pits, but please exercise caution. Penalties will be handed out for causing contact in the pit lane. Use your best judgement when making your pitstop during the race.

(5) Please follow the SROUK guidelines for using kerbs etc. Please keep 2 wheels on the track surface (kerbs do not count as track surface)
Excessive cutting of corners will seen as cheating and the results may be altered to reflect this.

The Capri is 1/2 second faster here for me, but eats tyres compared to the Escort
The Alfas are slower, but not by a lot, and the 2.5 Porka is slower for me, but will
be closer for professional Pork Herders. Someone (MJ)? quoted something saying that the
Capri 2600s would spend a race trying to escape the RS16000s, and there would be an Alfa 2.0
in there as well.

Sounds like a plan, so here it is  ;D I don't care whether the Porks ran in the same
group or not, they handle very differently here than the other cars and for someone with the
"gift" they will add variety and could be competitive.  :P I tried an IROC, but even for me it
was a couple of seconds faster than any of the others, so 2.5 is all you get.

Norton doesn't like your site - doesn't recognise or have any history of it. It therefore automatically deletes the attempted download. Help please

Have got this track down loaded OK from our list of download tracks for GTR, is this the same track?

The only one that works from the Srouk list is the 1988 version with the nasty chicanes.
The one we are using has a Humyo and Filefront link both broken.

Either set your Norton so it's less paranoid and will allow downloads from my site and will allow you to download .exe files or
try the 2nd link I have created which is a .zip of the exe.

Or personally I would get rid of Norton and anything else off my system, None of
my systems have anything more than a spyware detector installed. Norton and
the other offerings usually do more harm than good. Just my opinion of course, flames will be ignored.

Other than that I or you could ask Dave to relink the file to amazon.

Thanks Matt will try it out later when I get onto PC. Just renewed my Norton.  Guess when I have more time can tell Norton your site is safe and allow it to accept downloads.

No go I'm afraid Matt, get the following message:-

"One or more files could not be unzipped."

Will have a quick look at Norton.

Had a look at Norton, can see how to stop things but not how to specify something that I know should be safe.

Also tried again to download but get this message:-


Message WZ13
 
This message is displayed if WinZip® was unable to open the requested archive. Specific causes for this error include:
 •The archive file does not exist or is in use by another program.
 •The specified folder does not exist.
 •The file is not an archive.
 •The archive has been damaged or corrupted.
 •There were disk errors or insufficient memory while reading the archive.
 •The archive contains invalid or illegal filenames.
 
If you are attempting to open an IMG or ISO file, please note that WinZip includes support to read and extract from ISO files and disc image IMG files. Many programs use the IMG file extension for what they would term "image data". In such a case, the "image" may be a graphic or it may be a digital image of a disc (or diskette). Attempting to open an IMG file that is not in the expected ISO format is one way to cause WinZip to display this error.
 
WinZip supports ISO file systems that include ISO 9660 and UDF from 1.02 to 2.6 (a subset of ISO 13346). Usually, CD images use ISO 9660, DVD images use UDF1.02/ISO9660 bridge, and Blu-ray Disc images use UDF 2.5.
 
If you are working with a Zip file, you can try repairing the file as described in Fixing Zip Files.


Don't know where to go from here, have to sleep on it.

Easiest way is if Dave would please put the track on Amazon S.  :notworthy:

I have downloaded track from Matt's link ok.

EDIT:  Then found that it was corrupted.  New download fine.

Point taken Clive.  I don't understand why I can't get that zip file - I downloaded your setup link from the Mallory post and it's unzipped perfectly.

Bill is right about the zip
I had renamed it as just xxxxxxxx.zip but it needed to be xxxxxx.exe.zip so I have redone it
Have another go Bill, I renamed it because Norton might see the ".exe" in the filename and
throw it's dummy out of the pram.

I don't recall ever having raced this track, but it sure is a nice one.

Sooooooooooo much more fun to drive that Rheims  ;D


Stig

Thanks Matt, after a bit of problem - probably finger trouble, have successfully installed and checked out track.  It's OK and some of those corners seem familiar. Also copied your RSR 30 setup file for a look at Imola see if I can safely use it to drive RSR there.  No good with RSR with my attempts to set it up, far to tail happy - gets away from me too easily, also too fast for me.  Alfa 2000 Am is about my limit with rear wheel drive, mid engined cars OK.

What, its all horrible slow corners & gravel traps. 180mph+ on the straights sure would get your attention in real life & then jumping on the anchors to try & stop the thing at the end. Must admit it probably doesn't quite feel the same in the virtual world!

Well I like it, always have, and just to add insult to injury they have me working down in Birmingham
that week so I will miss it.  :taz:

Not sure my RSR3 setup wil help you much Bill, this is the 2.5 variant, there will probably be a 2.5
setup somewhere in that zip if you want to search for it.

Bugger I'm going to miss this I think as got a big family birthday to attend same night.  :(  shame as its a good set of cars on a fun to race track (unless its f1 !)

Only one problem here, apart from finding some speed!

All the wheel wangling is giving the arthritis in my right wrist and thumb a right bashing!

That and trying to remember which paddle is which when my arms are crossed three times.

Increase the steering angle in your setup?

Sorry to hear you can't make it MJ and Matt as I think this will be a corker. Wasn't Spanner threatening to be join us for one of these PnG outings?

Always enjoy racing here and spoilt for choice with the car selection this week. Alfa 1750 and Porsche are great drives as is the Escort which for me is quickest, but will suffer with tyre wear I reckon.

Can't wait  :)

I really can't face trying out all these cars so just plonked myself down in the Capri.

The left-hand T4 is a bit of a sod.

Yes i am definitely out i'm afraid  :'( After Imola i was hoping for another great race in this class. Its really going to hurt me in the points table too with so many drivers on close points in the top 10  :(

Anyone got any laptimes? I'd quite like to take the 911, but the Capri and Escorts are quicker as well as being easier to drive, and i don't want to be left on my own at the back. Discounted the Alfas cos i never drive those.

You will not be alone, I promise!

I would expect the aliens to be in the 1:50s or below.

Can't say in what as Matt will ban it!   :P

You just get twiddling yer wheel  :blink:
Nothing will be banned this week. I think the Capri is fastest, but any car could win in the right hands
I don't have my times with me, but the 911 was about 2 secs slower for me than the Capri, but I am
always relatively slower in Porches to Aliens than in most other cars.
In testing elsewhere I am finding the older Alfa2.0 is remarkably fast, and will easily beat the slower escorts
Not sure it would here, but it keeps surprising me.

Can't get any of the Alfas to run competetive laptimes here, so I'm seriously considering abandoning my belowed, fullbreed italian 1750 and picking one of those Mustang- look-alikes from Köln.

I hope one of the supernaturals from VDA will show up and defend the famous badge from Milano

(http://www.alfaromeo.com/com/media/image/alfa-world/distinguishingelements/alfa-badge-z-04.jpg)


Stig the renegade

If I will be able to join the race, I will gladly accept the challenge Stig ;)

I hope to be on time after my football match tomorrow...

Do you have some reference laptimes?

Cu :)

My best lap in the 'old' Alfa 2000 as well as the 1750 was  1.53.700, bit I managed a 1.51.300 in das leistungsstarke Kölner-Express.

If you have a nice setup for one of the Alfas, I'd love to try it  ;D

Stig

One more miss for me  :(  due to a late appointment tommorrow.
But this time that's not that bad as I never liked this track.
Can remember having watched some of the most boring F1 races ever years
ago in TV at this place, because it's a track where it is absolutely impossible
to overtake opponents.

Hope to be more consistent in the run for last place in future  ::) ;D

Have fun guys.

To be honest, I didn't noticed that Capri 2600 was one of the possible choice until I joined the server. I managed a 1.53.7 after a few laps, but honestly I could be able to go under the 53 easily with a good lap. Unfortunately I guess that this car would be usless to fight against Capris, considering that Clive was on the 50.9 in it. Maybe I should reconsider my previous statement. If I'll have some time to practice, I will try the Escort, to see if it gives more chance to be competitive against Capri.

donnicciola.  ;D

Stig

It's the bitter Truth Stig  ;D ;D

Myself and Jules are looking forward to this. Jules is 25% Hungarian so feels at home here, his 50% Welsh heritage accounting for his talent  ;)

We'll both be counting on Italian flare and reliability  :laugh:

If it's any help, John wandered off to look at the 911 so that there would be less chance of his lapping me.  :-[

Haven't had time to do any laps in it yet though, has anyone got any reference times, or a setup? I probably won't get much time before quali.

I was dipping into to the 1:48's in the Capri, but have to be careful not to take the p*** at that chicaine.

52s for me in 911, but no consistency. Ended up going a completely different way with setup compared to what i had with at Mallory, and it didn't feel anywhere near as nice as it did there. Expecting several trips into the gravel tbh..

Good point about the chicane - there are green areas beside the kerbs there (and also at T11) like at Imola last week - ppl were using them at Imola, is it the same rule here? Or not?

I tried a few laps in the Escort last night, got a low 1.50, but like frex, found it difficult to be consistent. Also it didn't like attacking the kerbs too much, very easy to put it on its roof! :o

I'm hoping that the wheel on the tarmac rule will be followed here.

We all need to be racing to the same track limits so it either needs to be "one wheel left touching the tarmac" or "just let the track decide".

No good if everyone makes up their own mind what constitutes a legal lap and then leaves Matt to see if he can spot the differences.

I am awway in darkest Brum this week and don't have access to P&G, but my memory of this track is that unlike Imola
where some of the chicanes weer very low, and invited some abuse, here the chicanes where you might make up time
are more like the Variante Alto and too much abuse either breaks the suspension or rolls you.

The kerb police are not going to book you for an occasional accidental wander inside kerbs, the game might give you
cuts, and they will be on. Just try to keep two wheels on the track surface most laps and there will not be a problem.

What a disappointment! I was hoping for nothing, hated this track and couldn't get a consistent lap. Then I changed my setup , aiming for as much stability on the rear axle as I could get, and that got me into the 1.51s. I qualified fifth, came through into third and ran with Manteos and Roger for a while. Manteos then spun out of the lead and I continued to follow Roger's Porsche until I was caught by Geoffers in the Escort and Clive's Capri, lost concentration and went off at T1.

Rejoining, I was careless and made contact with Manteos, fortunately without any consequences for either of us. Still, I have to apologise to Matteo, sorry, totally my fault.

I then chased Manteos for several laps and finally overtook him round the back of the circuit when disaster struck - total system freeze for 5 seconds! When it came back, it was all psychedelic colours and I hit esc and quit. I just hope that Manteos who was following me closely didn't run into my frozen car.

Anyway, I thoroughly enjoyed myself while it lasted, and was hoping to inherit another undeserved podium, but it wasn't to be.

I have had a look at my replay and must hold my hand up for one accidental transgression at the tight chicane.  However, most of the people that I followed, obviously had no intention of sticking to the tarmac.

Same goes for the bit at the start of the last sector.  It was just being straight lined.

I find it difficult enough to keep to the track that I have practiced without having to modify it mid race!

ah results are up. Wouldn't have inherited a podium it seems - everybody running in front of me finished. Congrats to all podium finishers!

I'm happy to see Manteos finished 4th, which means my freeze didn't take out anybody.

Don't know if that includes me Clive, but I didn't think I was using too much kerb. However if the kerb police deem that I was then I am quite happy to be removed from the results.

That aside, was a good race. Absolutely terrible start & got swamped by T1, fortunate to hold onto 4th place. Chased Niels for several laps but could not find a way past until he ran wide at the penultimate turn. Was upto 2nd then as Manteos had already spun out of the lead & just had John's Porsche to deal with. Unfortunately for John it was a bit unfair as the Escort was much quicker on the S/F straight & I breezed past.............. only to run wide at T1 & let John back through  ::). Second go at it was more successful with an outside pass at T1. Gradually eeked out a lead & came home with a 7s gap.  ;D

Congrats to John & Clive, cya next week.  :thumbup2:

Excellent race this evening, well for the first half anyway. Had a very close battle with Nik, Seniordan and Jarda for the first few laps until I was able to take advantage of mistakes and pull clear. Second half was just a drive to the line with no hope of closing on those in front.

Gotta say it's frustrating to hear of drivers exceeding track limits. We all make errors of judgement occasionally, but if this is happening regularly and drivers are purposely gaining advantage, then I believe we ought to start using our moderation system.

Better still, just flippin' stop it!

Having just watched the replay, I have to hold my hand up & say that I was regularly getting all 4 wheels off the tarmac at the chicane & at the tight ess-bend in the last section, so should be disqualified.  :(

Many good duels at the rear of the grid. Unfortunately, I picked the wrong tyres ..... :-\ , and my laptimes dropped from slow to deadslow. Don't think I've ever been that low on rubbber in a race ;D

Stig

Likewise, I think I was doing that a lot more often than I thought I was in the race.

I will have a scan at the replay this weekend. No point crying over spilt milk.

If people are not playing by the rules, then I will have to see if I can pick tracks with harsh cuts
but then people will complain about that. I could choose tracks with walls  >:D but I know some
people who will be noisy about street tracks....
Actually some of the upcoming tracks have solid looking objects (that are not)

My view is that we should be driving as you would in a real world event, you wouldn't be putting
4 wheels inside the kerbs in an F1 or Touring car without expecting to receive a drive through or something.
Always a problem with virtual racing, we just have to rely on people's sense of fair play most of
the time. Some of our SROUK versions of tracks have tighter cuts, I might try to be more selective
but it's yet another parameter that I have to include, as well as choose something that looks good/
is suitable for the car type/isn't Cadwell  ;) /is not new/supports 28 cars/is by a designer we can use (Gianni said we are
free to use his tracks BTW, so we can use Beranovac Yeahhh  ;D/ )
and now tracks that have big vicious kerbs and no inside run off.  So, we will be running at a very
select and small series of tracks then.

Sounds like people were not aware of how much they sinned, I doubt anyone on here would deliberately cheat
it's hard to penalise people for doing something that "seemed reasonable at the time" ah well, onward ever onward  :angel:

This is a problem in real racing as well as in sims - I remember a Barcelona DTM event a few years ago when a kink that was delimited only by plastic poles was progressively straightened as the poles were flattened one by one.

As to yesterday's racing, from the cockpit (I haven't watched replays) I didn't see people do things that I would regard as against the spirit of the rules.

At Monza, F1 clarified that it was ok to have four wheels off at Ascari. Maybe we could have similar clarifications made pre-race - at Hungaroring, one could say that, at the two chicanes, you should not stray more than a car width from the track, this would still prevent blatant cutting.

Ascari was to do with people going wide, which though suspect is not usually a big deal here
We are more concerned with cutting inside of kerbs/straight lining chicanes

Our rules deal with it:

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3349.msg65152#msg65152

Personally I am not so strict about it. I just ask people to keep two wheels on the track most of the time.
Anyone can misjudge or get forced off line by another car, there is no lightning bolt from the sky
if you sin. I was reported once and lost places becuase I was not bothering with the painted kerbs
at Dijon, I treated them as track, but someone got upset. If I have to limit track choices to ones
where kerb cutting is not a valid option, then these series will become less interesting.

Cracking race, many laps running close behind Jarda and also Alex, others too at times. Got a bit sideways near the end and lost 4 places in one corner as we were all running so close - great fun.

Pretty sure my laps were clean at the chicane, though may have run wide once or twice at T11. Only saw (mostly) clean laps from everyone else, certainly no blatant attempts to gain an advantage. Tbh i think the run to the next corner is so short i don't think much advantage could be gained anyway. Congrats podium, cya next race.

Hmm..

Before anyone falls on their sword, I suggest that we decide which rules we are running.  I'm sure that I remember the two wheels on the tarmac being spelled out in our rules but they now seem to have been written to say "don't tread on the grass"!  The width of curb will have some effect on the end result of such rulings.  ::)

Has this been changed for the nobs in iRacing?  It is completely different to what we have been taking as the gospel of St SROUK.

I joined the server with 7 mins to the end of qualif session, but I didn't have time to practice with the Escort. This car surely need some setup tweaks, but the only thing I could do was to change the brake bias, and stiffen the rear springs before the start. Unfortunately during my quali lap, I forgot to check the tyre wear and temperatures, and evenmore I started the race with soft tyres. It was absolutely a wrong choice.

Despite my 4th position on the grid, I splashed off like a bullet, gaining immediately the lead. My poor knowledge of the Escort on this track, didn't let me to escape from the followers, cause I did practically the same mistakes for at least 3 laps. Then I put a wheel on the grass of the right corner before the chicane, and my car spun in the escape.
I tried to push a bit harder to fill again the gap with the leaders, but lap after lap the tyre wear grew exponentially, and the left-front tyre was hot enough to cook a steak in less than one min. I realised to have lost the train when my pace started to get really worse than the first laps. After mid-race, I was hooked by NPP, that passed me after a couple of laps, cause I was unable to open the gas, and my car kept sliding for the rest of the race. Unfortunately for NPP, he crashed just in front of me (no harms done mate, I just had to go 4 or 5 seconds on the gravel to avoid you), so my race finished desolately alone on the track.

Talking about the white lines, I watched the server replay, and I guess to have been really clean at the chicane in my action, going just slightly external to the white lines only a couple of times at the chicane. At the third sector corner, I went out of the white line for a good 75% of my lap, but I didn't feel comfortable when braking in that corner and my left front tyre had no grip at all cause of the high temperature.
However, every version of Hungaroring in which I raced, had this extra-space outside the kerb in that right corner of the third sector, like the 2 Rivazza of Imola, and it's quite natural fall into temptation of exploiting that extra space.
I guess it's not so rare to see even in Formula 1 or GT races that drivers put 2 wheels on the synthetic grass and 2 on kerbs (so with all the wheels out from the white line) especially when they're accelerating out of a corner, and nobody charged them of "cheating". I hardly remember S&G penalties for such manouvres in some recent times. It's just a matter of rules. I understand and I agree that chicanes need a better concentration to keep the wheels inside the white line, without cutting it, but at the same time I understand and I agreed with Matt, as he stated after Imola race: "There are kerbs with kerbs after them, the green kerbs were put there to be driven on by the circuit designer, so they are going to get used at times." In this case, I think that nobody used the kerbs for cheating, but cause it is a natural consequence of that kind of corner with that second kerb after the first kerb that is an unresistable temptation.

It's just a matter of common sense, cause if the rule is interpreted so tightly, myself, John and Geoffers should be DQ by the race, and I would consider it a dangerous precedent IMO.

It's up to you as ever, but this kind of trouble could be easily solved, with a simple rule like: some corners got a kerb after a kerb, and in that corner is allowed to keep 2 corners on the painted kerb and 2 corners on the "added" kerb". Obviously this rule should not affect the chicanes, but only the exit of a corner. It's just a proposal  ;)

Grats to Geoffers, John and Clive for the podium! Cu :)

glad my system freeze didn't majorly affect you, Manteos. You probably did the wrong thing stiffening the rear - I found that softening the rear and stiffening the front a little worked much better.

What tyres are you guys using? Softs were obviously the wrong choice, but am I too conservative going for hard tyres every time?

i never understand this 'interpreting of cutting', it should be as the real world in all cases...two wheels on the black stuff at all times, doesnt matter how much astro turf/kerb/grass the outer wheels are doing as long as the two inside wheels are touching the track (not on the kerb!). If your 4 wheels off every time, its outside the track limits and would get a warning from a track official. The occasional in-discretion is understandable as your racing to the limits and cant get a tricky corner spot on lap after lap.
We all know and love racing enough to know whats a cut and what isnt, so no point feigning naievity/interpretation  :angel:

Sounds like i missed a good 'un  :(  good to see John carry the porsche banner up front again against the quicker cars  :)

"We all know and love racing enough to know whats a cut and what isnt, so no point feigning naievity/interpretation"

So, I'm sure that now you can explain to us why I found you "cutted" (in the Manteos way) at Imola the track 30 times (without including the few centimeters cut) before the first half of the race Mark  :angel:

In Italy we say: "Predicare bene e razzolare male", that the site word reference.com translate to me in this way: "Practice what you preach".

I'm uploading your first 30 cuts on image shack, so when the upload will finish, do you want me to post it on this thread?

I've just told you that in Italy we use a different rules to avoid this drawbacks, cause we consider the kerb like the "black stuff", and despite I struggled to conform my driving to your rules, I wasn't succesfull enough, and the mission was not completely accomplished I have to say (like Geoffers and John by what I saw in the replay). But we have a strict rule in our championships, cause if you go outside the kerbs more than 3 times in a race, you will receive a penalty for every cut after the first 3 of about 2 points. I'm not advocaticang our rules are better than yours, but I just want that you comprehend that this rules was respected in these last 2 races only by a few number of drivers, and that one of these was surely Clive, but not you Mark.

You know that I've no trouble saying what I think, so this time I had to do it.

My defence is in that statement  ;) First off, i dont need to justify myself to you or anyone, but I 'never' intentionally cut any corner in racing (and i would swear on a bible on that!) If i have cut in a race its usually because i am driving at 'my' limit to keep up or ahead of you fast guys and/or slightly out of control trying to control a lairy old car  :P  Thats very different to someone who intentionally cuts a corner to gain an advantage (though probably doesnt look it on a replay!). Good example of the latter was the GC race the other night where some guys were deliberately driving through the tyre wall on the chicane apex!! probably gaining as much as half a second each lap as they didnt have to brake and downshift. >:(
No doubt i had some laps at Imola (like 99% of the field) where i ran wide of the track/kerbs (especially that uphill S-bend as i remember being too far to the left a few times on exit) but again it wasnt from any intent to gain time, more my lack of skills/precision...plus i am using one hand to steer and a manual shifter!

Im not bollocking anyone or accusing anyone of cutting (i wasnt even at this recent race!), was just wondering why the 'interpretation' has to keep coming up  ???
All the aim here is, is to stop people deliberately cutting to gain time, so at least 'try' and keep two wheels on the blackstuff :)  otherwise you will end up with the same dodgy driving standards i have witnessed elsewhere. Everyone here is pretty fair and honest imo.  :euro:
I actually like the sound of your cut rules, but does mean more admin for someone here. :-\

Not goin` into this debate but I found both sides right. IMHO main problem is when track layout doesn`t fit hand in hand with the rules and we have spots on track encouraging to brake or bend (interprete differently) the rules like on that kink 2 corners before finish line. In this race I`ve seen cutting but rarely to gain time but we were slow enough not to see what you, faster guys, are talking about  ;D - just kidding if smiley is not enough!
Why don`t we identify and mark the spots before event and say where is acceptable, where not.

Oh! My race.
Hard tires just didn`t work for the first 10 laps and I was last for few laps but in last quarter I gain 3 positions thanks to them. Two mistakes, one in last corner when rear tires was not warm, enough and second when I clip grass under braking and went wide in sand(barely) trap ... 

m'eh, its just another storm in a teacup   :-* Not quite sure why everyone gets so paranoid about it, none of us here has accused any particular driver of any cutting, we just mention it now and then to make people think before an event rather than allow it to get out of hand and maybe upset a driver during a race who loses out to it. It was mentioned before the Imola race because in past events (not P&G) people have taken liberties with the fast chicanes/corners, albeit with the knowledge its very easy to get out of line in these old cars.
Just from reading the after race posts for this event, some drivers have felt they needed to justify their cutting like they knew they were taking liberties, even without being accused of it!  Guilty conscience?   :shifty: so proves its worth clarifying on occasion. :)

lets get back to racing.....

Unofficial LapChart (http://www.justanotherpage.nl/Srou/PnG/GTR2_hungaroring_2013_3_21_20_46/)

Wow, what a race! Flat out action for the entire 40 minutes of the race.
Partly helped by the nature of the track and my surplus of horsepower, we got a nice train going for the entire race with five cars battling it out for P6-P10.
Didn't have a single contact in the race so a big thanks to Ed, Frex, Zarda and Hotkeys for the hard but extremely fair fight  :euro:

Congrats to the podium.

I think this would be the best option IMO.

Just to answer to Mark: "First off, i dont need to justify myself to you or anyone, but I 'never' intentionally cut any corner in racing (and i would swear on a bible on that!) If i have cut in a race its usually because i am driving at 'my' limit to keep up or ahead of you fast guys and/or slightly out of control trying to control a lairy old car"

"No doubt i had some laps at Imola (like 99% of the field) where i ran wide of the track/kerbs (especially that uphill S-bend as i remember being too far to the left a few times on exit) but again it wasnt from any intent to gain time, more my lack of skills/precision...plus i am using one hand to steer and a manual shifter! "

These 2 sentences for me sound like an un-needed justification Mark. Everyone drive at his limit during a race online, mainly cause we don't risk to die and cause everyone try to do his best to be as fast as he can trying to respect the rules. What does it mean that you drive with one hand and manual shifter? That you are allowed to do the same thing I've done changing the gears with the paddles? For me this is not a good reason and doesn't justify anything, cause there's no need to justifiy a normal behaviour of every driver that wants to exploit the track surface and its additions like it happened in Imola. If the additions are there, it's cause they're meant to be exploited in the minds of people that built the track. They're not mysterious objects put there to make the track more pleasing to your eyes.
In real life they solved this problem for the chicane putting higher kerbs or bumps inside the chicane (like in Monza at the "Prima variante, Variante della Roggia, and Variante Ascari"), but at the same time, they added some extra space (usually covered by the synthetic grass) in almost every track at the exit of a fast corner, and it's not rare to see drivers exploiting it (like the first and second corner of "Lesmo" and a lot of Tilke's damned modern tracks).
During my first year experience I used to race mainly in lobby, and it wasn't rare that a lot of drivers did a specific setup just to jump on the kerbs and bumps better especially at the "Prima Variante" and "Variante della roggia". That is what I consider "cheating" in terms of cuts. You can't put the car height at 8/9 cm on the front and 9/10 cm on the rear just to cut better a chicane, and this is what I consider an unfair behaviour.
The differnce between real life track and simracing track is that they can be modified to obtain the behaviour you pretend by the drivers during a race. Unfortunately to modify a Simracing track and what the game considers cut, you should modify the files of every track adding bumps here and there, or you can change the "geometry" of what the game should consider a track cut. These measures requires a lot of time to be implemented, so usually the simracing "marshals" leave to the drivers a bit more freedom in the interpretation of this rule.
If I watch to yesterday's race, I have to say that myself, Geoffers and John (I watched only their replay + Clive) didn't respect the white line rule in the strict sense compared to Clive, but I don't give them any responsibility for this behaviour. I'm just a bit disappointed cause for the second time Clive complained about this aspect, and he is racing on different rules compared with the leading drivers group of the last 2 races. This is not good, because it leads to arbitrariness in the behavior.
As Animal Ed stated in his previous post, wouldn't be easier to say in which points of the track is allowed to keep the internal tyres outside the white line? Obviously with the limit of 2 wheels on the kerbs, so the end of the kerbs in these limited cases will be considered the very limit of the track.
Evenmore you won't need any further marshall to control the other drivers behaviour, cause it's up to a driver that complains about the others breaking the rules to submit a complaint for track cutting. Nobody is asking to someone to watch all the race of every driver.
It tells you one that 2 years ago did a complaint against 15 drivers for deliberate cutting with all the four wheels outside the kerbs at the Eau Rouge, and discovered that the driver who cutted the Eau Rouge the greatest number of times was just a VDA driver
The point is that now seems that you have 2 different racing standards about the cuts. The strict one is that adopted by Clive and a bunch of other drivers, and the other is what the rest of us adopts, and as I said before, it leads only to arbitrariness. Just my 2 cents. Now, you decide, but please give us a clear rule without interpretations :)

I've always a clean conscience talking about this issue, and as ever I repeat that if you want to DQ me, it's not a matter if it will help to clarify this rule once and for all.
See you

LOL

Castle Combe should be interesting.

There is a white line 300mm from the edge of the tarmac and the curbs are narrow.  This means you can have two wheels on the tarmac, whichever edge you take, and two over the grass!

I'm currently practicing, in my usual manner, with at least part of one tyre tread inside the white line.

Would like to know soon if that's wrong.

The above is quoted from post #1 of this thread. As you can see it clearly states that you should keep 2 wheels on the track surface & the kerbs do not count as track surface. Clearly Clive was respecting this (supplementary) rule & several of us were clearly not. But the SROUK guidelines here:  https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3349.msg65152#msg65152 say that you should refrain from putting wheels on the grass, sand & gravel & I am pretty sure that Manteos, John  & myself were driving within those rules. In my opinion we were not cheating but simply driving the track to its fullest extent, however this is still at odds with what Matt had clearly stated in red in post #1 & so according to that supplementary rule we were driving outside the rules.

I'm quite happy with any decision that is made regarding me driving outside the rules & in my opinion if Matt has gone to the trouble of highlighting something in the race posting we should obey that. This time I didn't! :(

That's very interesting and something I hadn't realised before now. I always believed the "written in red rule" in the first post was simply drawing our attention to the relevant and specific rule of track cutting contained in our standard SROUK rules just to make sure that lazy types (like me ?) would be aware of them without having to read through them all. However, when things are written in red it does tend to draw ones attention.

I think there is a real need for clarification of our general rules and everyone should then be in no doubt of what is legal/illegal and exactly what the consequences are.

In RL there is a driver's meeting where stewards make all participants aware of local track rules so that no-one is left in doubt. Exit of Ascari is a good example of this where drivers are permitted to run out wide. I actually raised this query before our recent PnG race here, but didn't receive any reply to my post. I think if anything these "local" rules should be those written in red in the race post as they become apparent. If there is nothing specific noted by race time, then the general rules should apply to the letter.

Something as simple as "Running out wide as Ascari is fine" or at Hungaroring "Drivers are permitted to cut chicanes without penalty" would be clear enough.

Sigh..... I added the red rule because we were having non stop arguments about what was a "cut" and what was not.
I have absolutely no intention of trawling through every replay counting how many times each person gets 4 wheels
inside a kerb. If someone wants the job you are welcome to it. Seems this one will just not go away and we
will be still be wanting clarification for every track we run at, Well I will not be giving out track by track rules for
each and every event. "If" there is a particularly suspect part of a track, and I am aware (or made aware) of it, I will state in the
event page what we should do about it. Matteo's club use the kerb as part of the track, I don't really agree with that.
If we say that the kerb is part of the track then there will be another 1000 posts about whether the green part of
the kerb is "kerb" or not, and is the white line "track" or not ad nauseum.

Sorry to be a bit grumpy guys, but I am absolutely, completely, and utterly fed up with the constant "discussion" of what
is track or not. My suggestion for these series is that you should keep two wheels on the track most of the time
occasional accidental wanderings are not an issue. And the "track" is anything tarmac or up to the kerb.
If you choose to ignore my suggestion, and you are gaining time by excessive cutting then your victory will be shallow
just like the fastest driver always taking the fastest car (which anyone is free to do) but the fast guys tend not to
and self handicap.

Some tracks have kerbs that mean it is a natural driving line to get your outer two wheels on the kerb itself as per
Matteos' rules. the 1st chicane at Adelaide street is a bit like that. When we ran there almost everyone had
all 4 wheels up one of the kerbs at least some of the time (including me), in that example it was painfully unnatural to have to slow
to drive carefully around the kerbs, so we ignored that, and at Hungary it is hard to avoid sometimes getting outside
wheels up kerbs, <shrug> I am not going to drop 90% of the drivers from the results because they were doing something
that most other people were. I need a very very simple rule, it is too time consuming working out whether driver 1 or driver b,c,d,e or f
cut a kerb more than 3 times in a race, I just don't have the time to do that, however good an idea it might be.

My simple "Rule" is: Keep two wheels on the track surface on most laps.

Beyond any painted lines at the outside of the track count as track by default. (Such as at Monza)
unless stated otherwise in the main event post.

Now, if everyone would try to drive within those guidelines, my life will be simple.   :chef:

I really hate to use the incident report system, because someone/people (not me in this case) has to review the replay
and make a judgement, and if someone gets a judgment they don't like it can be an emotive subject.
If a particular person is getting what you consider to be an unfair advantage by unreasonable cutting
then do an incident report for it, stating in the report the time(s) in the replay that this occured.
Otherwise just drive sensibly, and keep two wheels on the track surface, so no one can accuse you.

Ok, on to the next event  ;D and I will be there muhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhahahahaha  :2guns:
 

The reason that we get constant discussion is down to the fact that people cut the track but no action is taken.


So I suppose that I have to enter an incident report listing all of the points in the race where the car in front of me took a short cut.  Why should I be the only one who is hacked off!

I feel sorry for John, who handicapped himself with a slow car and then found himself racing against faster cars who were, in his words or something like, extracting the urine at the chicanes.

I think that Tudor got it right when he suggested that people "should just flippin' stop it"! 

Well, I think that needs a little clarification there Clive :) I didn't say that other people were 'extracting the urine', more that we'd have to be careful not to 'extract the urine' during the race. As it was, my competitive nature got the better of me (not that that's any excuse) and I ended up drifting over the line as much as some others when trying to chase down Geoffers :-\

I will not be handing out penalties to anyone for Hungary.

Please will people to keep two wheels on the track at all times in all races unless stated in the race announcement

Not a problem if you spin/make a rare misjudgement/go off line because of other cars to avoid contact.

As stated I need to keep it simple. I am not going to get draconian for any one person who disagrees.
I am not absolutely, no way, nada, nein, going to watch every lap of every race to point the finger
at any sinners. MJ's posts are pretty well where I am at.

If someone finds a dodgy place at any up coming track, then shout up and I will give guidance as required.

I have enough to do here without being the flamin cut police as well.  >:(

Yours Grumpily

EDIT: Perhaps I should clear up any misunderstanding. I will not be giving out penalties because I don't,
the moderators do. And I am intentionally not a moderator for my own series. Though I have volunteered to moderate
for others.

If I watch replays or see something on track that I find unreasonable then I might
put in an incident report for it. I will give my opinion, and the moderators can accept it or not.

The SROUK rules don't say you will lose a place for putting a wheel on the grass, just that you are "discouraged"
I put in the extra note as a guideline so everyone would know what was considered ok and what was not.
If people choose to ignore my request then they leave themselves open to the guy behind putting in a
report, and if the moderators agree, they might lose a place or worse.

If anyone feels that they lost places because others flaunted the rules, then test the system and put in
a report to the moderators. You might gain places, or you might not.

Ah, I finally did get excluded!

Ouch!  :hang:

Hold on, why didn't I get this as well?

I didn't know Geoffers had an incident report against him. Report yourself if you feel badly done to John.

Probably because you weren't reported to the moderator. Don't worry about it John, I transgressed & you probably only did the same trying to stay with me.

Both drivers have owned up to doing the same thing.
Breaking the same rule should surely be treated the same (I.e. either both are punished or neither).

Nothing happens in motor racing without a protest.

I submitted an incident report for the fist 12 minutes of the race and listed eleven instances where the car in front of me, Geoffers,  straightened out the circuit and gained advantage with all for wheels having left the track surface.  I had observed this in the race and did not need to trawl through the entire replay on the off chance of finding something!  I stopped at twelve minutes because I was bored and also because Geoffers had pulled away a tad and I couldn't see what he was up to from my car.

After a second week of watching some people effectively using a track that was a metre or so shorted than the one that I was on, not to mention straighter, I was appalled to learn that nothing was going to be done about it.

So I did something. 

Hopefully everyone will now have a couple of wheels on the track surface.  Especially if I am following them.  ;D

Sorry Geoffers but I believe that the "two wheels on the tarmac" rule is of benefit to UKPnG.  However, I also believe that the rule either needs to be enforced or chucked out.

'two wheels on the tarmac' sounds reasonable enough but what does it mean? Can I have all four wheels outside the white lines as long as I keep two on the tarmac?

I don't want to stir things up, I'll happily follow whichever rule is in place and I don't want to discuss the merits of the various rules but at the moment I'm simply confused. Do I have to stay within the white lines or just on the black stuff, do I keep two wheels off the grass (as one does, normally), two wheels off the kerbs or at least keep two wheels on the kerbs  ??? (ok, the last point is addressed in the rules where it says two wheels on the track and the kerbs don't count as the track).

At least the next race at Rouen seems to offer few opportunities for cutting, the scenery jumps out towards you rather aggressively there!

No problem Clive, I agree that it either needed enforcing or chucking out. I would have preferred it chucking out personally, then it would have been in line with the other leagues I race in where kerb is considered part of the track.

Can we move on now please & draw a line under this race.