SimRacing.org.uk

UKGPL Season 24 - Pro Trophy
Race 3 Mexico City  

For the third race we go to Mexico, the standard Papy track, which has a really long start/finish straight and lots of tight twisty sections!

The Pro Drivers will have a free car choice. Drivers will have to remain in that chassis for the rest of the season, they will only be allowed to swap chassis in exceptional circumstances and only with the approval of the moderator.

There will be full moderation of lap one Red Zone and reported incidents for the rest of the race.
Please submit incident reports within a week after the race so that the moderators report may be out before the next race.
Full time drivers have priority access to the server until 21.00 UK time.
Please restrict your chat to a minimum!

The specific division rules for the Pro Trophy have changed as the INT division has been suspended.
Handicapping will be introduced from race three onwards and will only affect the top three drivers in the championship. The top three drivers may, at the moderator's discretion, be limited to a slower car. If handicapping is in action then handicapped drivers will be notified in the race post.

For this race only the predominant leader of this championship Hristo will be handicapped as the followers are close together.

Hristo Itchov -> Cooper

Race List	=	IGOR
Server	=	UKGPL_8
IP Address	=	tba
Race date	=	19-02-2013
Qualification Time	=	~20:45  UK time -> 30-45 min
Race Time	=	race starts at 21:30 UK time
Track	=	Mexico (Papy)
Variant	=	65F1 the 2.02 Release of the 65mod should be used
Damage Model	=	PRO
Race length	=	~50 min -> 27 laps
RED ZONE	=	from race start to the exit of the Hairpin
Password	=	see above (#post_event_password)
Replay	=	you will get here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Pros/)

GLA

No problem Dean. Apologies for the contact myself. Hope your car is okay. Good luck and go get'em! Grats to whoever finishes on the podium.

PS Shame about Hristo, he is going so well and it could all end in tears in the race stewards office. I'm not having a go H, personally I like seeing you going for it in whatever your driving.

See you at the next round everybody.

I'm not going to play along with this arbitrary decision that has zero logic in it, Axel. Either introduce a solid fair handicap system like the one in Historics, where the top drivers in the standings are handicapped by cars separated in 3 groups, or don't use a handicap at all. This division started with a free car choice for all and I would not accept such subjective decisions to influence the outcome of the championship. We are 3-4 drivers on equal pace right now and you want to ruin my chances by severely handicap me compared to them.

At this very moment I feel like throwing in the towel and giving up GPL!! Tomorrow I might feel differently.. :hang:


I thought that I had sorted out the probs on my PC and was able to start racing again without the sound slowly breaking up or random 10 second screen freezes. I was actually thinking to myself that I this was one of my personal best races for a long time. I had started 10th on the grid and hunted down the cars in front one at a time. I had worked hard for about 10 laps to catch Florian and managed to make a clean pass, then with 4 laps to go I was closing quickly on Tristan and felt in with a chance of sneaking 2nd place. Hristo was away and clear and there was no way I would catch him.

Just as I was about to start thinking about a passing place.......... :shifty:

The screen freezes and the sound locks into a fast loop sounding like a machine gun and then I get disco'd and CTD!!!! Words cannot describe how totally pi**ed off I am at this moment. :censored:

Maybe I should wait till dawn before setting fire to this heap of ******

good race for me , but no possible to fight with H. ....I was a little bit just in fuel and have to slow down for the 3-4 last laps.....I finish with one litre fuel !

....and also, I  don't want to push to catch H. 'cause I don't know if he will be disqual or not 'cause of the lotus!?, and I don't want take any risk for nothing :)

...so I'waiting for the final result .... ;D

...anyway see you all in Aintree .....ciao tuttti la tribue :-*

My blood pressure has reduced slightly...but I am still "not happy" about my PC. It might not be getting the death sentence, but I foresee that it will need some serious surgery if it is to survive.

Grats to the podium guys and to those who finished last nights race ( I should have put that in my earlier post, but I was somewhat distracted  ::) )

Up until my disco I was having some great battles with Dean, Ronnie, Al, Florian and almost Tristan but he escaped my attentions when I got booted out.

Maybe if I had qualified further up the grid I could have mixed it more at the front as my pace was good, but that is the curse of doing quali on race fuel I guess.

Those are some crazy issues you've been having lately, Evil. Could it be something hardware, the motherboard perhaps? Doesn't seem like the usual GPL issues, but something else...

As for my race, I didn't make a good getaway, so Florian and Tristan jumped in front. Tristan was immediately setting a storming pace and I couldn't quite find a way past Florian, so for 2 laps I had to follow and wait for an opportunity. This came on the run towards the hairpin and after that it took some time to reel in Tristan, who had great pace on the straights. Even though eventually I managed to pass him, he was benefiting from the slipstream and was holding on. He was obviously not pushing, as he mentioned, so by mid-race I managed to open up a gap, but lost it with a spin, then this repeated a few laps later. Near the end Tristan slowed down a lot and the gap grew from 3-4 seconds to near 30 at the finish.

Something I forgot to mention: since we did not have handicap in this division and we were supposed to use the car we started the season with, I never even bothered to read the race thread and see that Axel wrote I should take the Cooper, otherwise I would have obviously not kept quiet in the days before the race. And in the server, I just don't read the chat, and I also have it turned off in-car. I prefer to focus on my driving. The first time I saw Axel capslock COOPER was when the session was already over, so even if I wanted to I could not change car.

In any case, I really don't think we should employ such a subjective and random form of handicapping instead of a pre-defined system, especially considering the moderators are also racing themselves. If Axel would just bother looking at the first two races he would see there was no dominance by anyone, but a rather equally-matched group of drivers. Florian had all the chances to win in Montjuic and Tristan would have won in Albi, as well as challenge me in this race, had it not been for running out of fuel. I don't see how you can just choose to handicap me based not on pace but on my measly 30 points lead in the championship, which is a result of other people's bad luck and mistakes more than anything. I should pay for it, is that it?

As I wrote to Paul some weeks ago when the Intermediates merged with Pro's, it might be a good thing to use the Historics system here to give those Inter drivers a chance to compete on more equal footing, but I would rather simply not race if this biased and irrational handicap is maintained. I did not sign up for Pro's to struggle in an underpowered car against drivers who have a competitive machinery and are just about as quick as myself, if not even quicker on occasions. I didn't see anyone complaining when Tristan was beating me last season and leading comfortably in the standings. In the end the best driver should win the championship, but I can't see this happening if you impose such kind of handicaps whenever you wish. It's a knee-jerk reaction and has too much influence on the championship, ending up in standings that do not reflect the true performance of the drivers.

First of all I want to apologize to Natan who was a victim of my spin in L2 T1! SORRY!


To make it clear, I am not a friend of any handicap! When I took over the Pros I abandoned it and it worked fine.

In S24 we have the special situation to have submitted the Ints and some drivers were not voluntary in the Pros, so we had to change the rules!

Hristo, the rules are written since the first race post, clear saying that from the 3rd race on there will be a handicap!
You had a ~50% points advantage to the second for whatever reason.

My thoughts of giving you the Cooper were that if I use the handicap for the first 3, you would have been in a BT7 for shure....

Last season had no handicap. If this season would have handicap and you put me in BT7, then you would also have to give Tristan and Florian the Cooper. How can you justify that only I should be handicapped? And it doesn't end with just the 3 of us, then you would have to handicap some drivers to BT11, Honda and so on. It's going backwards in terms of rules, going back to the ridiculous situation we had a few seasons ago when the top drivers could barely compete on equal footing (on some tracks racing for 4-5th instead of 1st). Why can't we have a fair handicap system if we should have any, instead of this?

As for the rules, yes, I know how the season started, but last season was the same thing and nobody was ever handicapped, even when the points gap increased between drivers at the top, whether due to bad luck or mistakes. It is the same situation right now, I merely benefited from the mistakes or bad luck of others, but in terms pace we're quite evenly matched. Handicapping just me is like handing over victories to the others, because there's no way in hell I would be able to compete against them in a Cooper.

If instead we employ the fair championship-standings based handicap system, then it will all sort out itself automatically and keep the championship close and alive all the way through the season. It has been proven to be the case over and over again in the divisions that use that system. For me it's the only fair system we have and it has been improved in the F2s this season where the slowest cars are only ever used if someone leads the championship by more than 50 points. Before this Mexico race I had a lead of about 30 points, not 50 as you say...

My main problem is with this: "The top three drivers may, at the moderator's discretion, be limited to a slower car." It's too vague and subjective.

But we all agreed to it when we signed up to race in this series.

In the F2 Lights, I'm qualifying from 4th to 8th (a full second and half off your pace), keeping my nose clean, benefitting from other's misfortunes (discos, etc.) and somehow find myself leading the series (with a smaller margin than you started Mexico with). The series rules say the leaders "may" be assigned a slower car (wow, it's vague and subjective, too). It DOES NOT SAY "they may be assigned a slower car unless they're only leading due to other's misfortunes or mistakes". It DOES NOT SAY that whatever happened (or didn't) last season has an effect on this one. So I'm in a Cooper for Watkins, among drivers who I KNOW are faster than me? Yay, bring it on.

"Shut up and race." - Me, 2013

I did agree on it before the merge with the division. We raced under the same rule last season as well and the handicap was never used. Why? Because it's supposed to be used only when someone is completely dominating the series, pace-wise. This is obviously not the case at the moment.

And for F2s it's the same thing, I don't agree you should be handicapped at all, it makes absolutely no sense. On what basis are you being handicapped? Just because you happen to lead in the standings? If this is the case, then where is the line drawn, at how many points, at what pace difference, etc. etc.? It's TOO subjective and unfair because over the course of the season it may put one driver at more disadvantage than another, and thus influence the outcome of the championship.

We were supposed to use the Historic system for F2, with the addition of Ferrari and Brabham only forced upon someone who has 50 or more points gap, as those cars turned out to be way too slow last season. I really don't see any logical reason why that system is not being used and instead we have to rely on this irrational and inconsistent kind of handicap, I really don't.

But:


So any concerns you have about the system for NEXT season should be raised in an appropriate thread. The rules for this season were published in advance and agreed to by all concerned. If you do not want to play by the rules you agreed to, the door is that-a-way.


I trust the moderators here to use their best judgement. As you don't, why are you here?

Your choice is your choice, don't impose it on me. I can't just follow this blindly and ignore irrational decisions. It's like you're telling me "sacrifice your own racing because you should", well no. If there is a better method (and there is), why insist on using a flawed system and sacrifice a whole season? It makes no sense and whether you chose to ignore that or not, it doesn't change the facts.

The reason I didn't bring it up before the season is exactly because I expected a fair judgement, just like last season, but when I see such massive difference that would affect the championship, I can't accept it. It is because of such thinking as yours that some issues have been carried over season after season instead of being fixed on time.

Just look at the fastest laps: 1:50.709 <> 1:51.696 ~ 1sec difference to the second,
that's the logic and ratio I used to only handicap you for this race, to make it more equal!

The last season worked fine as you had chosen a more difficult car...

You take things out of context, Axel. If you actually take all facts into account, you would know that:

1) Tristan had the slightly slower car for this track (Honda), though it is quicker on some other type of tracks. Plus it was up to him to take any car he wanted, so he sort of imposed a handicap on himself for some races by taking Honda. Do I have to pay for that? Did anyone pay for the fact we at Waza raced Honda for years, on purpose? I don't think so...

2) He said he didn't push because he didn't know if I was going to be DQ or not.

3) He slowed down in the last part of the race when the fuel is at its lowest and you do fastest laps.

4) I only pushed for fastest lap near the end, because it's the easiest thing to do, but it's still a gamble. It's not possible to drive like that through the whole distance.

You can't just look at lap times and assume things based solely on that... it's unrealistic and skips a lot of other factors.

It's a much better judgement to look at race replays and see how things unfold. And as I said, even if I'm slightly quicker, and if we assume all other factors equal (consistency etc.), even if that's not really the case (because I'm not so consistent at all and I make mistakes), shouldn't the best driver win the championship? How do you justify handicapping me to almost the slowest car in the mod without handicapping anyone else?

And again - give me one good reason why we shouldn't use the systematic approach to handicapping based on championship position where drivers are gradually grouped into cars, top 3 or 4 in the standings, instead of just subjectively deciding at any point in time who should drive what? Sorry, but with your last post you just prove you don't take all things into account to make a fair judgement on this.

Now it's enough!
The rules were written in the race posts of the races and the registration threat!

AND

IMO you had a good chance to get a good result in Montjuic in the Cooper, but you decided to take the verbal confrontation and ignore the rules!

You yet again prove you take things out of context. I said I did not read that and I was not reading the chat in the server, and when I saw you were repeatably shouting COOPER at the end of the session, there was no time for a car switch EVEN if I wanted to. It made no sense to me that you would handicap me in the Cooper for a mere 30 points lead, considering the competitiveness of the races (which you obviously are unaware of and judge only on fastest lap times), so I never expected it and simply didn't read the race thread, just grabbed the password at the top. I would have definitely brought this up well before the race have I noticed your irrational handicap, you know that very well.

Please don't hide behind rules, we're not slaves here. If you can't see my reasoning then you're just being stubborn and trying to establish your moderator's authority, disregarding everything that's been said. What a shame that the league has gone down to such level really. People who yesterday were rookies are now given power and judge things from their limited point of view, assuming it improves the situation. It's a shame you're not willing to even discuss things and see the flaws in the system. You don't even attempt to oppose any of the points I made regarding all this and instead you prefer to hide behind the regulations and authority. And you know what I find funny, Axel. You were 2nd in the championship before this race, so it gives an even bigger impression of bias that you tried to handicap me.

That.

Suit yourself. It's not fine by me at all. There is no justification that a mere 30 points lead because of other people's bad luck rather than sheer performance is reason enough to give me the second slowest car while my direct opponents remain without handicap. What do I race for here? Last season it was the reverse situation and nobody cared to handicap someone else and give me a chance in an inferior machinery, but now when I'm leading, it just to be done so I do not win, is that it? Ridiculous!

Different subject, sorry it took this long to get to. From my submitted report, re: lap 20 @ T1 with Ronnie:

That would be me , and I still stand by what I said

T1 Mex is a great place to overtake , its also IMO one of the finest corners in GPL for practising the art of trail braking , unfortunately  I'm still very much at the practising stage  :D

Hristo,

You are being a bit disingenuous about not realising there was a handicap. You took a different chassis in race 2 which was excluded after the series merger. We allowed the latitude as there was some confusion after the series changed but you knew that there was handicapping from Race 3. It is your responsibility to read the race post and it was clearly stated. The issue is the fairness to the other drivers in the series who have fully respected the rules.

It is also unfair to accuse Cookie of bias - that has no merit and is not worthy of you. To also assert that you are being targeted to ensure you do not win is also without merit. Handicaps in the top series are not desirable but we felt it only fair after several Inters drivers were forced 'up'.

As to the handicap system, I have not had time to discuss with Cookie the setting up of a handicapping system for this series so that is not his fault and you have my apologies. We will discuss that and any changes will be announced in the race post for Race 4. Please ensure you read it.

The handicap to a Cooper is based on the fact that the slowest three (although this is arguable) are BT7; Cooper and BRM. The handicapping last year in the 65's was based on the leader being handicapped with the BT7 and anyone within seven points getting the BT7 or Cooper and anyone within 14 points getting the BT7, Cooper or BRM. The merge with the Intermediates means that handicapping was unavoidable. Your lead of 'a mere 30 points' is, in this context pretty large.

From that point of view, Cookie was over generous in giving you the Cooper - it should have been the BT7. You could probably have won in that anyway!

I'm not sure what you're talking about, Paul, because last year neither myself nor Tristan were ever handicapped. We simply ran without handicap and it made perfect sense. Those small points difference you're talking about, it's the first time I hear about them. What was discussed between last and this season was that when the gap grows beyond 50 points, a handicap of a very slow car might be used. Now here we have a couple of drivers at the top with similar pace and you're saying only I should get handicapped. If we had a robust system in place like the one in Historics, which handicaps the top 3 (I think), then OK, it will apply every race after the first 2 and it will make sure the championship remains close. However I can't really see how subjective handicapping which is decided by the moderator based solely on their own view, without any predefined factors (not announced publicly anyway) leads to a fair championship.

As for the slowest 3 cars, I would say BT7, Cooper and BT11. BRM is rather quick in the 65 mod, especially on faster tracks (which is where handicap makes the biggest impact anyway). I would understand if, to accommodate the Inters merge, the top drivers in the division are all handicapped to slower cars, but only me? It really appears based on the (obvious) lack of broad view by Axel on the situation, as he only points out lap times or margin of victory, disregarding actual events in the race that led to those statistics. You only have to take a look at the Albi race from yesterday, in Historics, to realize how equally matched myself and Tristan are, Florian and Artiglietti as well, and JB if he chooses to enter other divisions outside Works, as well as all others who are just about there - Evil, Al, etc.

As I have said it is based on the Inters rules from last year. This is not Cookie working alone. The BRM is included because although it is quicker than the BT11 it is noticeably more fragile so drivers tend to have to drive at less than 100% or risk a retirement.

The announcement of the handicap is in the race post. I have checked back and in the past when people have not taken the handicap they have been excluded from the results. Even when such a failure to comply is inadvertent. That will seem very unfair to you but we did give you latitude after Race 2. Downside is you will lose some points. Upside is you won't get handicapped so badly! This may appear arbitrary but we have discussed it as a group and this seems the fairest way to everybody. Frankly, unless we take your wheels off, you'll still win!

On the subject of handicapping on very fast tracks, we tend not to because that is SO unfair. BT7 at Spa would just be torture.

It's not so obvious from the way things are written in race announcements. It just says the moderator will decide and you have no way of knowing by what rules they handicap whatsoever. That's why my reaction was so severe, because it just seemed unfair and I couldn't justify it. Feel free to exclude me from this race.

Thanks. A reminder to you all to check the race post please. I will make sure that for round 4, at least if there is a handicap I will PM each of you.

I always check handicaps in divisions that use a proper system. The reason I didn't check here was because it was the last thing I expected to happen so early in the season and with such close competition. It's not necessary to PM me about it really, so save yourself the trouble.

Moderation published

Can you explain to me please how its work ?
Cookie spun in front of me and take me out and ruin my race and points !!!
Nothing said about it ?
Does he deserve more points then me ?
No penalty ? No warns ?
It is very interesting and not for the first time !
Very strange rules you has guys !!! ::)

If it wasn't on lap 1, it has to be reported, otherwise it won't be moderated. I assume it wasn't reported? Besides, if someone spins and someone else can't avoid hitting them, it's just a racing incident.

It was reported !
More then that Cookie admite by him self about !

Strange then, usually all reported incidents are mentioned in the moderator's report.

I have checked Natan and there was no report. The only report was about Dean. When you hit Cookie he was facing the wrong way and stationary. There is no penalty for spinning (which Cookie did all by himself). It was unfortunate that you hit him ending both your races but that is the difficulty with Pro settings. As Hristo said, that would be a racing incident.

Paul just think about !
lets say that it is racing accident wich Im not agree with you !still he was the reason for my retirement and still he is got 2 points more then me !!!
 Strange isnt it ?

Yes, it is not fair that I got more points!
GPL just counts the distance where one retires.

If there is a reported incident with me involved it will never be handled by myself, it is handed over to other moderators!

does it ? i always thought it was the order over the finish line on the last completed lap by any retired drivers , when you get more than one driver retiring on any one lap .

 

It doesn't count the distance, just the laps. If we use a custom 50% rule, then only laps should be counted, not actual race time completed by each driver. That's how it's done in reality. If in this situation both Natan and Axel retired at the same time and both were on the same lap, it makes no sense that only one of them should get points.

It is harsh Natan but it is completed laps (which was equal) and then as a tie-break elapsed race time to complete those laps. Cookie led you across the line so he gets the nod. It mirrors real life - when Schumacher took out Damon Hill he won the championship. Harsh.

It was very unfortunate for you but I did look at it and it was a clear Racing accident.