SimRacing.org.uk

THIS POST IS FOR THE LIGHT & HEAVY RACES

Round V of the Formula 2 Trophy will take place in Spain. The Circuito del Jarama is a 3.4km/ 2.11 mile  race course in Madrid, Spain which has hosted nine Formula One Spanish Grand Prix. The circuit was built by Alessandro Rocci in 1967.  It  has one proper straight and most of the course consists of tight, twisty corners so overtaking was extremely difficult. (Try & avoid being in the modrator’s office afterwards).  Jarama hosted its last Formula One race in 1981
The series will run on two separate grids ~ The Lights will run on T7 & the Heavys on UKGPL 3. Please ensure you join the correct race. The Driver list is shown below & the Championship Table can be found here F2 Trophy  (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=389&theme=6)

Handicaps will apply – please observe this rule as a failure to take the correct car will result in an exclusion.
In the Lights Dean Logan – Group II (BT14, Ferrari or Cooper). Raoni & Tristan Group III – any of the Group II cars or either Lola or either Lotus.
In the Heavys – Rog UK – Group II, Rainier & Jonny O – Group III.  

A maximum of one reset is allowed per race & must be followed by a compulsory Stop & Go in the pit lane. If you Reset on the last lap a 30 second time penalty will be awarded.
Incidents should be reported in the usual way.
In line with other divisions the races will be subject to full moderation in the red zone which will be until the exit of Farina. The Moderator may chose to investigate any other incident, in addition to reported incidents & red zone incidents.

Please note that for UKGPL has introduced a system of penalties within each series for drivers accumulating yellow cards – see here
Penalty Points (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=10879.0). Drivers incurring these penalties will receive a PM advising when a penalty has been applied & what race it should served.

LIGHT	HEAVY
Arf Arf	Badblood
Cookie	Bernie
Evil Clive	Billy Nobtrakes
Fulvio	Bilto
Hristo	Dave Curtis
King Hiro	Geoff
Magic Arisoulle	Giovanni
Natan	Il Lupo
Phil Thornton	Jonny O
Bartosz	Nigel Smith
Raoni Frizzo	Paul Villers
Ronnie Peterson	Rainier
FMG	Boggy
Skymole	Francesco
Al Hellar	Pierre D
Doni Yourth	Vosblod
Dean Logan	Adam Cooper
Dean 0	Ed76
Robert John	Tin Tin
	Du Fossa
	RogUK

Race List = IGOR Server = UKGPL3 & T7 Race date = Sunday 17-03-2013 Time = 21:00 UK time (21:00 GMT) Track = jarama (http://jarama.gaiztor.com/index_en.html) Race length = 27 Laps Variant = 1967 Formula 2 Damage Model = Intermediate Qualifying time = minimum of 30 minutes

Seriously? I'm tempted to just skip this round.

Dean - as far as I know the Cooper only has a minor performance difference against other chassis. (BT14 & Ferrari are a different matter).
Jarama has lots of slow corners & will favour the handicapped cars - wait for Monza 10K.

Exactly, apart from BT14 and Ferrari, all other cars are more or less evenly matched.

Great track, in my opinion, and extra bouncy in these cars. It would be a shame to miss it whatever your driving Dean. Hope to see you.

That "minor" difference had me qualifying last (nearly 1/2 second behind the next slowest car) at a VERY short and simple track like Watkins, and unable to do anything save try to latch onto someone's draft (which will be a complete non-factor at Jarama) to keep from getting lapped.

Did you notice that I'm qualifying an average 1.5 seconds off the pole, WITHOUT a handicap?

Did you notice that the 3 drivers behind me (who won't be after this race whatever car you allow me to drive) have qualified:
Raoni: pole, 2nd, 2nd
Tristan: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd
Hristo: pole, pole, pole?
where I've been: 8th, 4th (at a track I've obviously done a lot more practice at than most), 8th

Did you notice that the only reason I'm leading this is because I've bothered to show up for every round (and had the good fortune to not get discoed at Brands)?

Do you seriously think they need me to be handicapped to have a chance of beating me? ???

Keep the handicap applied, and I won't be there, because it will NOT be fun, and that's the reason I do this.

edit: or I will show up in a non-handicap car (just to race) and WELCOME THE EXCLUSION.

Dean,
Sorry you feel that way - but the rules were set at the beginning of the season & everyone else seemed quite happy with the system.

I didn't notice you having any issues about driving in the Privateers where you are clearly much faster & more consistent than any other driver in that division.

"...the leading three drivers in each division may be assigned a 'slower' car." I'd assumed that handicaps would be applied if anyone had built up a sizeable gap (now 11 points, less than the award difference from 1st to 3rd) in the points standings, and only in the interest of fostering close racing, as in "This season’s handicaps should not severely disadvantage the top three drivers, but give the pack a chance to compete." Raoni, Tristan, and Hristo are clearly much faster than I am in the F2s, a second or more clear of me on the grid (when they bother to show up). Your position that they need me to be handicapped to have a "chance to compete" is, quite frankly, laughable.

If I'm to be punished for 100% attendance, the solution is obvious.


One pole from four races = "clearly much faster than any other driver"?  ROFL.

I've already stated my willingness to move to Works (for NEXT season), even though it's far from certain that I'll win the title in Privateers.

Valid points all around. Perhaps there is a solution ?  I don't know.

If the top 4 drivers discarded their worst two results so far ...Dean Logan would be in 4th  Peace

RJ

I think the issue here is the rather fuzzy definition of the handicapping system this season. I'm not particularly comfortable with the division rules simply stating drivers "may be assigned a slower car" at a moderator's discretion - a loose definition like that is always going to prompt uncertainty & debate. I'd much prefer a clear, unambiguous & objective set of handicapping rules, like we used to have in Historics where the championship leader didn't get handicapped until he was "X" amount of points ahead in the championship. Also the same system applied to the 2nd & 3rd placed drivers, so if the championship battle was close the top 3 might all find themselves in handicap chassis.       

I don't think you can start fiddling around with the rules mid-season to suit individual circumstances though. In 66's/Historics I've never been on the pace of Hristo, Tris, and the other really fast guys, but I've spent the last 3 seasons almost entirely using the handicap chassis. My elevated position in the championship always owed more to consistency than outright speed, yet I was still allocated the Mclaren at high speed tracks like Spa... nobody ever suggested that we drop the handicap chassis for those races as it wasn't fair & frankly I wouldn't have felt it appropriate to do so, as it would have just felt too much like the championship was being artificially manipulated. OK you could argue that all handicap systems (& indeed points systems) are a form of artificial manipulation, but that's my point - if it's clearly defined at the start of the season & we all sign up to it, then I think that's the best we can hope for.   

I thought we already discussed this. The arbitrary handicap based on subjective decisions by a division's moderator, I'm totally against that. Handicap based on a strict and predefined handicap system, I'm up for that. It has worked well season after season in Historics, as well as Masters while it existed. It gives everyone a better chance to compete in the championship. The key is to have enough group separation for the top 4 to 6 drivers, thus spreading the cars gradually, instead of having an abrupt gap in car performance for the top 2 vs. the rest.

Again, I see no logic that such a system was not applied to 65 or F2 divisions, but instead it was left to the moderator to decide, on rules that were never announced publicly. The fact that Axel finally agreed to change his approach in Pros goes to show he realizes the flaw in that approach. It really doesn't make sense to react to small points gaps and totally handicap someone all of a sudden. Here it is the same thing, but at least he seem to have the cars grouped, so Billy can do things a bit more systematically with ease.

I agree with Al it may not be best to change rules during a season, but if something is severely flawed, perhaps we should. In fact I don't think it would do much of a harm at the current moment. We could simply apply the system without Billy having to judge it by his own observation, but simply use the points standings. While I don't know the performance of all cars, let's assume the current groups are proper, so it would work like this:

Top 2 in the standings - Cooper (plus any other car close to it in performance?). If any of the top driver has 50 or more points lead over the 2nd placed driver, he has to use the much slower Ferrari or Brabham, but that would be the only case where those should be used. We saw clearly last season the performance of those 2 cars is too different to the rest, Cooper included.

3rd and 4th in the standings - a middle group of cars + the slower ones mentioned above ^.

The rest can use any car.

If it happens that a slower driver leads the championship and gets handicapped, that's the way the system is supposed to work, it's supposed to give drivers behind a chance to catch up. If the driver is slow and/or inconsistent, he simply won't stand up there for long and once he gets passed by the quicker drivers in terms of points, he will be able to get a fast car while they get handicapped in the slower ones. In the end it should be no surprise if the better (not necessarily faster) drivers finish higher up the standings, it won't be correct if it's any other way. Handicapping should be not used to make someone finish higher than someone else if he's not better than that driver.

And BTW, Dean, you can't really compare Watkins with a track like Jarama, regardless of how long the lap is. Watkins is a proper power track, while Jarama is much more of a driver's track and the Cooper, even if it doesn't have enough power (I assume that's the case), it wouldn't matter much on such a track. It's like saying that because BT7 is bad at Watkins, it won't do well at Jarama - it can do exceptionally well at Jarama.

But I'm NOT leading (except through the artifice of the scoring system). As RJ points out above, once the two drop races are taken into account, I'm actually fourth.

In a hypothetical, if I somehow manage to find an extra second plus PER LAP for the remainder of the season, so I'm actually on pace with you, Raoni, and Tristan, and manage to gather the exact same amount of points over the remaining races, then when everyone's two worst results are neglected, I'm all of a sudden not winning anymore; I'm not even on the podium.

Do you really think I need to be handicapped in the interest of fairness?


Then why are you so eager to see me handicapped (again), when you are, for all intents and purposes, ALREADY BEATING ME, and undeniably faster at every track we've visited so far, a situation that shows NO sign of changing?


Then the mods should have taken that into account before saddling me with that sad sack of shit at the Glen.

Looking at the bare stats for the Cooper (the least lame of the car choices I was offered), a 10hp deficit (215 vs. 225 for the other FVA-engined cars) led me to expect maybe a couple of tenths loss in outright pace. As it turned out, it put me to the very back of the grid, with no chance of advancement, leading to some choices that I'd otherwise not have made (going side by side into the Loop with Cookie [he ended up in the fence] and following a group much closer through Speed Trap than I normally would have done, a move which cost me both front wheels, a shift-r, and a stop and go).  If I'd known just how poor that car is at a track like Watkins, I'd have raised these points before that race. Forgive my lack of prescience.


I disagree. I'm not asking for mid-season rule changes. I'm just pointing out things that I believe the mods have not taken into proper consideration. That's the only flaw I see.

Well, that and someone who snags pole every time supporting the idea that a midfielder (that they're already beating) should be handicapped, but that's a different subject.

hi    :)

heu !...well ...if I can give you my opinion about,.... I think the gap is just not enought between Dean and Raoni ( 11 pts ), and also with me ( 12 pts )...and I think also with Hristo (21 pts ......between first and fourth place ).....this is a ridiculous gap !.....the gap is just to small and handicaping one more then another is not fair, that's why , for me all those drivers must have the same chances to fight for the podium and so , all must choice in  Group III – any of the Group II cars or either Lola or either Lotus....    .....the gap is realy not significant.

You ARE leading in the championship standings. The 2 worst results aren't dropped until the end of the season, it happens every season and is the same for everyone. You can't predict what are the 2 worst results going to be for everyone by the end of the season, can you?

The handicap system which I'm talking about is not based on raw pace, it's based on championship standings. It's much better than subjectively deciding who should get what car, don't you think? It gives a chance for the slower drivers to be on par with quicker drivers, if we consider all other factors equal (such as consistency). The fact that you are leading by points and the others are not means you've been more consistent than the rest, so effectively you've done better than the rest. A championship is not won by raw pace, it's a combination of qualities.

If, let's say, myself, Tristan, Raoni, etc., happen to actually win and score regularly, we will be constantly handicapped in the slower car while you would be able to use a faster car and managed to mix it in the fight, all throughout the season. There is a tactical element involved, but with proper grouping of chassis and lack of under/over-handicapping (i.e. the much slower Ferrari/Brabham), the handicap system which I'm discussing does what is intended - bringing closer together each driver, but not taking away so much from those who are better as to rob them from what they deserve. And by better I don't mean necessarily faster. Just ask Al Heller how he has won Historics last season and how he is doing strong this season again.

And no, it's not about whether I think you should be handicapped or not, I just don't think handicaps should be handed out by someone's own view on things, but rather by employing a system that is not influenced by subjective interference. That way it's fair to everyone, because everyone gets the exact same treatment.


Again, I'm not eager to see you handicapped, I don't care who is handicapped. The point I'm trying to make is we should rely on a handicap system that has proven its advantages over all other handicap systems we have used in the past 8-10 years of UKGPL. It's not about you or me, but about fairness.


Well that's one of the improvements that can be made to the handicap system, to include a circuit factor, because it's a big difference whether you race at Spa or Monaco, though it also depends on the mod. With some mods, most cars have similar engine power, but different chassis weight. With other mods it's the opposite. And then there are mods which are a combination of the two (like the original GPL 67s). I agree it makes no sense to handicap someone in a very slow car, straightline speed-wise, on a track like Monza, or in a very heavy car on a track like Monaco (though the latter is less of a problem really).


With the great slipstream effect of F2s, it only takes a proper setup (tire pressures and gear ratios in particular) to negate all power disadvantages of a slower car. You can check last season when I was handicapped in the slowest of cars and still managed to keep up with the leading group for the sole reason of setting up the car for slipstream, then taking advantage of their misfortunes.


You just don't get what I'm saying. I'm not asking for a rule change to benefit myself from or to ruin your chances, I'm asking that we don't rely on arbitrary subjective decision on who gets what car for each race. That's too unstable and unfair in my view. It influences the championship in a very inconsistent manner and you never know what you'll get before each race. Unless we employ a system that runs on its own without outside interference, we would be better off not using any handicap at all.

If it's necessary, make the system more advanced, by introducing more group of cars with closer performances, it doesn't matter really, as long as we don't rely on subjective choice of handicap that relies on nothing else but one person's view on the situation. The latter will always see things partially, without taking into account some factors that led to points standings, to lap times, to gaps at the end of races and so on, and draw incomplete conclusions, then handicap people based on all that. I just can't accept such approach and I've already said it in the Pros division.

I'm not trying to blame Billy or any moderator, but it would be arrogant to think one can see things so clearly and be so objective, as to handicap people dynamically after each race without making it unfair towards someone. It just can't happen, that's why we use systems.

As a matter of fact, YES, I can (one of them, at least). Looking in my crystal ball, I'm going to predict that you drop a no-show, 0 point result. Same goes for Raoni and Tristan.

If only I could have such foresight for the Lotto numbers.


As opposed to this handicap system, which is based on... championship standings.


No, it means that I've bothered to show up for every race. If I'd skipped one, I wouldn't even be threatened with the Cooper.


Now what are the odds of that happening?


Yeah, it's called "skip one the first three races so you don't get handicapped early in the season". Guess I am learning something.


Which is why the present system has allowance for moderator's discretion. My only argument is that I feel there are things they are not taking into account.


The fact that you're one of the fastest drivers in all of GPL, let alone this league, had nothing to do with it?


That has special conditions depending on which mod we're using, and which track we're at. Who decides these? It's still someone's discretion, whether it's locked in before the season begins, or is done on the fly, allowing for circumstances as they arise.


My preference, but not what we all agreed to when we signed up, so moot.


Which all depends on what track we're at, and depends on how each factor affects/is affected by each individual's driving style. Needless complication for no benefit that I can see.


So we should rely on someone's subjective view of the situation that's set in stone before the season begins, and allows NO flexibility?


Where they'll be able to see all of these factors, and account for them, BEFORE THE SEASON BEGINS???


If you "just can't accept" it, why are you still here? As you're still here, that means you've accepted it.

I've yet to see a perfect handicap system. Someone always draws the short straw it seems. In this situation a driver with 4 finishes is compared with others with only 3 and the numbers don't add up. Perhaps drop one result in first half of season and one in second half ?

I can see one way to fair things up but that would rely on self imposed handicapping. Top 4 in points take the Coop and see who is the man.  ;)

Peace

RJ

You REALLY believe skipping 2 races is a good approach? Hello, what about if you retire from an additional race, you happen to have 3 zeroes. What if you retire from 2, that's 4. Where's the advantage in that exactly? By skipping 2 races, you are forced to finish all the rest in the points and score as much as possible. Again, where the heck do you see an advantage in purposefully skipping a race and/or retiring so you can drop a zero instead of a points finish? If you still can't see the flaw in your logic, then I guess you need to really think this over again. You are suggesting people can exploit this system by skipping races, as if retirements never happen and as if points finishes are always guaranteed. Sorry, but that's just stupid.


Not quite. This is not a system, this is based on the moderator's decision. I'm talking about a system which runs on its own, without moderator interference. It's not the same thing, even if a moderator's decision MAY be based on championship standings. But it also may not.


Feel free to skip races, but again, what I explained above... it's a disadvantage.  ::)


No need to be sarcastic. What do you suggest, that we slow down so you can be pleased?


Again, read above. Your logic is flawed. Try it yourself if you can't see the flaw, you'll learn the bad way.


It can be made to include a circuit factor, it's not difficult. It's like we did compared to last season with the Ferrari and Brabham.


You're just being arrogant. Have you watched the races? It had little to do with my speed and A LOT to do with other people going off and/or retiring. It may sound amazing, but yeah, I was lucky in at least 2-3 races just when I was handicapped in the slowest cars, where up to 5 drivers in front of me retired, drivers whom I otherwise had no chance to catch. The Qualifying times and grid positions show a clear picture of how little my pace was a factor for the final results.


It's decided mostly by using GPL Rank records, in other words - by pure car performance, excluding reliability. It's not just based on someone own view or experience of which car is quicker or slower.


That doesn't mean we can't discuss flaws and propose better systems.


It just takes an additional group and 2 separation of circuit-based cars for the slowest car group (Monza, Spa etc. vs. Monaco, Jarama etc.) and it will already be much improved in terms of fairness. Plus of course the 50+ points lead landing you in the terrible Ferrari/Brabham.


Again, read above. It's not created like that, it never was...


Not necessary, the system does it based solely on championship standings, type of circuit and points gap. At least it's perfectly clear right from the get go, no surprises, equal for everyone.


Hilarious! You're the one complaining here, not me! You're complaining, yet you're telling me to quietly obey the rules because I've agreed to race under them. You don't even realize I'm trying to help your case here, in the long run. I already mentioned it in the Pros discussion that I disagree you should be handicapped UNLESS we used a proper system. As soon as flaws become apparent, it's only natural to raise the point and discuss those issues.


Yeah, that sounds good.

The only drawback I see with dropping results in each half season would be to those who've suffered setbacks already..disco's, missed races, pc issues. I remember Alan Jones being bitter he had no chance of winning 1979 title because of this system. But to be fair, he wasn't handicapped, unless you consider he was driving the FW06 for first few races. Then again, Ferrari didn't have the T4 until 3rd race.

Let's all show up in the BT14 at Jarama. Might even give me a shot at a podium.  ;D

Peace

RJ

I really don't see worst results dropped as being an issue, at all. It's a good thing, it gives a chance for anyone who has had bad races or couldn't make a race, to still come back in the championship. Is it guaranteed? Of course not, but at least it gives you a chance, as opposed to scoring from all races. In that case any retirement or missed race is very difficult, if not impossible, to overcome given the current point system. If we are to removed the worst results drop, we would have to change the point system so a win would have a much bigger impact than 2nd place, 2nd to 3rd, and so on.

And Hristo, you are, like it or not, a 1%er so to speak. That is to say in the top 1% of all GPL'rs. You can probably expect less ....empathy ?  from most commoners. Not exactly fair but a price to pay being a pop star.   :laugh:

Peace

RJ

And Dean Logan, you are too fast for Privateers although that's a totally different topic. I don't think that should factor in this series though.  ???

I'm not speaking for everyone, just for myself, but when we discuss league issues, experience and facts have to be taken into account.

Haven't really spent too much time looking through all the tired arguments but we published a deliberately hazy set of rules for handicapping so that the moderator could be flexible. If you don't like that system, don't join the series. If you have, we take that as your assent to the rules. Unless we have made an error the rules will not change mid-season but feel free to whinge about it in the mid season review which will be underway in a week or two.

I think the problem here is that the handicapping says after the third race the leading three drivers "may" be assigned a slower car, not "will" be assigned a slower car. The may infers that there might be circumstances when a leading driver "may not" be assigned a slower car
comments please....

Boggy

Now, now, what's with the dictatorship, Paul? That's the easy route out, say that whoever doesn't like it should just quit. You can do better than this...

If you really can't see the flaws of the current system then I'm worried about the future of this league. Calling it a tired argument is a bit arrogant, don't you think? Unless you actually oppose logic with logic and prove that the current system is superior, it remains an open discussion, whether you like it or not.



Exactly.

Maddog is now signed up to drive in the Heavy division.

just a question......the results of watkins glenn are still provisionals ( under moderation ) ....so this can change the actual drivers standing.... or not ?.....if there is a little possibility that the final standing can change, it's maybe a too early to give any handicap at this state ?..... :-*

Ye Gads!  Umm, well I'd better say something.  The Le Mans 24hr race was known for decades, for delving deep into the rule books, to try to stop, or hamper teams it didn't want to win.  But as long as the rules were fixed before the season started, everyone had a reasonable framework to play in, and the teams kept on coming.

Serious racers have always looked to stretch the rules to their advantage.  It's naive to think otherwise.  In general, in the real world, rules have only been changed mid-season, for reasons of safety.

+1

Quelle purge ce D Logan !! ::)

As I asked before when the word "may" is used what would be the circumstances when one of the top three drivers "may not" be assigned a slower car????

Boggy

What is the problem here. The rules were and are plain for all to see. If the moderator wants to handicap you he can, whoever you are, whatever your lead in the championship, in whatever car he deems fit. For this season END OF STORY.

Last season the intermediates operated under similar rules and no one had a problem. Some people turned up for all the races and found themselves in a BT7 early on, some people chose to skip races to ensure a faster chassis for the season. Discretion was used by the moderator on more than one occasion (e.g. Cooper at Spa for the leader, any chassis for the final showdown). We all knew the rules and we all just got on with it.

I and a lot of other people I suspect don't really care if you don't like the rules this season. It sounds like people solely interested in winning and winning at any cost, even if it means trying to bend the rules when it suits them. The idea of changing the rules mid season on the hoof is simply ridiculous.

Try and remember that all the series provided by Paul and the rest of the UKGPL team are for the benefit of EVERYONE.

The mid season review will provide, as always, a forum for discussion on any changes for next season and rest assured I will be fighting the corner for a handicapping system in appropriate series that gives everyone a chance of winning and not just the fastest drivers.

I've not argued that point at all.


If they still existed, that's where I'd belong, as my pace in the F2s shows that in an equivalent car, I have NO chance against the fast guys.


So my inexperience with the scoring system here is justification for penalizing me?


Which is what (IMO) is not happening here. Someone's leading, they get handicapped, end of. Circumstances? Quirk of the scoring system? Actual pace of the drivers involved? Ignored.


Again, I am not arguing the rules for this season. It's the application that I have issues with.


If I wanted to just win races, I wouldn't be in the F2 Lights. I knew before signing up that even getting near the podium (with Hristo, Raoni, Tristan and Evil around) would require a good amount of misfortune to befall others (which is what happened at Brands, where two of them DNFed, and the other ran away into the distance).


See above x 2.


And I appreciate that. What I don't understand is why a midfield driver is being handicapped, when any present advantage he has in the points will be nullified (and then some) come the end of the season.


Irrelevant, as 1) that will happen after this race (I'm of the conviction that, no matter what chassis I'm allowed to drive at Jarama, any lead I have in the series will disappear IF H, T, and RF show up), and 2) I'm not a fast guy in the F2s.

When I joined this series, I never expected to be able to compete for wins. What I wanted was a chance to compete against drivers of my level in equivalent machinery, while watching the fast guys run away (as happened in the first 3 rounds). Driving a hamstrung POS to a clear LAST place on the grid and acting as a mobile chicane in the race (viz. Watkins) is not fun, and if it's not fun, I'm not going to do this.

Dean the rules this season apply to EVERYONE. My response should not be read as you singular but you plural, EVERYONE.

Your just the poor unfortunate at the top of the F2 lights at the moment, just as I found myself in the Intermediate 65's last season. You can choose to skip the next race or take your chances in the handicapped car, its your choice. Trying to chase Gareth in his Lotus when I was saddled with the BT7 was a thankless task but the rules were clear at the start and I just got on with it. What you decide is entirely up to you but I would hate to see the rules change mid season.

Good luck whatever you decide.

Not wishing to protract the debate - but I will just clarify a couple of points.
First Boggy's question. The intention was to set the handicap rules from the beginning of the season. The registration post said
"Race 1 & 2 is a free choice of car. From Race 3 the following will apply."
As the championship was very close after two rounds I made a decision to defer until the Watkins race (round 4). The rules are the same for every driver.
Tristan - to answer your question above
"Chassis alloaction is effective when the race is posted, irrespective of whether points are adjusted after moderation".
The chassis handicaps will be applied as above for the rest of the season.
Drivers are at liberty to miss specific races as two results are dropped. Please remember that the series has a 1 Shift R rule, so deliberately missimg races could work to yout disavantage.
I would expect Jarama would be a much better track to take a slower chassis than Monza10K.
No handicap system is perfect but it does help to keep the competition alive until the end of the season.

Hello

I would like to participate at the champ F2, is it possible ?
In reserve, because I'm not sure to race all the track.

Thank you

Philippe

You have to vote in the registration thread here: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=11401.0

Yes Philippe, please vote in the thread.
There should be room for you to join.

What you people don't realize is the so called change in the system I'm proposing won't really be an actual change in the real sense, it would be more like Billy handing out handicaps to a couple of drivers based on championship standings, something which he is doing already. We already have the chassis groups, which the system could use just fine. The difference is, this will apply all the time and you will know in advance whether you'd be handicapped or not, instead of always wondering about it and handicapping being an unknown. In addition, it will prevent any possible misjudgment on behalf of Billy, because as I said, nobody can take absolutely all factors into an account in a consistent manner, and if we lack consistency in handicapping, then that is unfair to one driver or another over the course of a season. To those of you who are comparing this to a real series, show me any series where handicap was given subjectively, from a single person's judgement. Again, nothing personal against Billy, I don't think anyone can do it, including myself, so I'm not saying it's just him who can't do it.

And I also notice people are yet to realize the disadvantage of skipping a race, so I'll repeat it here. Even if you skip a race and get a better car, you have lost one of your worst results drop for the season, so if you happen to retire or get a bad result, that won't be dropped and you'll be in a disadvantage compared to someone who didn't skip and scored. I's a superior way of scoring in regard to bad luck and making the championship closer. If you remove dropped scores, you would have to change the point system to reflect that, otherwise the championship would get to be decided early on, with no chance for anyone to make up lost ground.

For the record I want to say I think Billy does a terrific job and I hope none of my input in this topic implies any less.
I think I stuck my nose in where it shouldn't have been. I'm not vying for any rule changes , just possible adjustments to discourage strategically missing a race to put someone else in the slowmobile. And not to say it should happen now because several would then be affected. Something to consider I thought but not well received it seems.

See you on the track

Peace

RJ

personnaly, if I miss some races in differents series, it's not because of a strategie for winning or because I'm affraid to drive a slower car than the others, I don't care about that...no, the only reason is that I'm racing in French ligues the tuesday,friday and sunday, and sometime there is a conflict of date.....but I never think about skip a race 'cause of points or badcar , it's just unclever, cause itch point is précious in a champ, and it's also a challenge to drive a slower car, and it's can help sometime ....if ( for exemple ) I win Jarama , I've goods chances to get a 2CV ( CITROËN ) for monza 10k.....no problémo ! I take it and do my best to bring back some precious points for the champ..... :P

Bravo Tristan !

I am sure you would stay one of the best even with the BT14 in F2 or the Cooper in mod65.
I really do not understand all these sim drivers contesting any decisions made by the moderators, they could win with an underrated car but they absolutely want the best !
why ? they really like boring races ?   

All right for my registration... I hope I can race to Jarama...
Philippe

well said that man  :)

T7 server is set for 27 lasp Long race and listening on Igor in Consolle session with OpenGL_V2.
Ciao

Skippin' this one, a poor excuse for a goat track, rather than a race track. More likely be a crash fest than anything else. I'm off to bed......good luck everyone, you'll need it.
Night.

Then, please, show where I've had ANY chance of winning an F2 race even in an equivalent car?

Watkins showed what happens when I'm forced into a slower car. LAST on the grid (nearly half a second behind the next slowest car at the shortest track of the season) and LAST in the race (except for a late mistake by Ronnie).

strange result considering your fl was only marginally slower than the2nd place Brabham of Al Heller, and you in an "inferior car " perhaps you took a wrong turn somewhere   ::)  maybe you should stop whining and do your talking on the tarmac . just my tuppence worth  :P

Solely due to sitting in Axel's draft, while running dead last. Remove that factor and I was a full second slower. How is this "race winning" pace?

draughts is an excellent game to play in F2 , no doubt the faster cars got there times with the same aids to performance  :o

Which has exactly what to do with showing how I can supposedly win races in a hamstrung car, as Rainier claimed (and you echoed) above?

Wow - never knew you lot cared so much... four pages and we haven't even raced yet!

As for dictatorship, lol, I was simply pointing out that if you don't like the system, that is fair enough but it is the same for everyone and whilst it may not be perfect we do feel that it is fair. It is a balance between keeping the championship close to allow lesser drivers a sniff of champagne, allowing the best drivers to win or podium and giving the moderators a ton of work... we haven't quite fallen over... yet  ;D

The only time that's happened this season is when (at Brands) Raoni didn't show up, and BOTH Hristo and Clive discoed. Just sayin'.

Sorry Dean but I made a general remark not especially for you.

Clive was second in the Cooper - not such a great handicap - as we have said, that car is fairly even with all the others.

Look again.

I did some comparative tests of F2, the performance is very close except
Cooper is a little slower, ferrari and BT14 are much less efficient
when you see the differences in the end have to make a racing with Lola instead of a matra or BT23 does not lose much (except when practices times are close like Watkin Glen)

I've been handicapped and over-handicapped for some 5-6 years (some 10 seasons!) and had to drive my ass off, ruining my health, compensate all the time, even against people who were on my pace in equal machinery, and I'm simply tired of people in this league demanding that fast drivers are so handicapped that they stop winning races, which is what this is all about. How about they start winning on their own merit, work they asses off as much as I did and improve, or if they can't, then just accept they're slower and deal with it? There will always be someone quicker, but so what? Should I complain that JB is quicker than me? I'm really tired of being treated like an inhuman and people always washing their hands with the "oh but I'm slow" excuse - I don't care, it's your problem! All I ask for is fair rules for everyone, not an agenda to babysit slower drivers and destroy faster ones.  ::)


It's not the same for everyone. Regardless of how experienced, knowledgeable and wise you are, as long as YOU (someone) decides the handicap and not a written system that doesn't rely on anything but cold facts/stats, there will be unfairness one way or another. I can't believe you don't realize that.

Its a Coop in the import... you took the Lubetech! good ol' SROU!

Grats Ronnie.

Updated standings after Jarama (with drops taken into consideration):
1) Raoni    125
2) Tristan  124
3) Ronnie   116
4) DLogan  112
5) Clive     107
6) Hristo    106

See you at Sebring.

Congrats Ronnie   Nice win and consistency

Great speed Evil and good finish

Grats Tristan  Hope I didn't cause you to spin last lap

Jarama is a track that magnifies all of my weaknesses behind the wheel. I can't seem to get the car to rotate quickly enough and when I do...it ain't always pretty. The race was a lot more fun than I was anticipating and I'm glad I took part. I got mixed up in a trio of Matras and had a great time regardless of my mistakes. Phil, Arf, and DeanO made it an enjoyable race for me. Cheers

Nice field of drivers and thanks for sharing the road

Peace

RJ

Are you serious ?  :o

No, he is just over dramatic...... as usual


Anyhow.. This was my first race in what feels like half a lifetime but its actually only 8 weeks or so since my PC went down... I was being kept away from GPL by a lack of drivers for my graphics card ( it really is an oddity this one  - Radeon HD 4650 AGP ... ATI seem to think such a thing doesn't exist and they don't make a driver for it!! ) but on saturday I stumbled across the Xforce installation disk with the all important 3d driver! Windows was installed on saturday night, GPL was installed Sunday morning, and a quick blast around Jarama was enough to convince me I was ready for the race.
I have to say I thought the track was fantastic fun, the racing was generally clean and back markers were curteous. I was surprised by my apparent pace and was well pleased with my second place finish....
Well done to Jonny O for the fine win.. awesome pace dude, you were untouchable out there.!  ( mumbles something about handcapping...... )

Its good to back :)

I meant "ruining", from ruin, and yes it's true. And as for the "inhuman" bit, what I meant is people calling me alien as if I win by default and it didn't took anything to get to this level, to maintain it, to extract the performance, not to mention the simple fact that from my point of view I'm maybe slightly above average if I compare myself with the top sim racers.


I'm not being over dramatic, not at all. It's more that you're being arrogant. You are just clueless what it took to win those races when I was handicapped in the BT7 in 65s, the Honda in 67s, the Ferrari/Brabham in F2s, the McLaren in 66s and so on. You're still clueless what it takes to compete at the moment. You don't have the slightest idea really and it's not just you. Most of you just like to hide behind the "oh I'm slow, but he's fast, so it's alright if we make him work for it while we trundle in a powerful car and make mistakes and still finish up high".

I sacrificed a lot to win all those races and titles to just stand and listen to clueless people who started racing yesterday and think they know what it's all about. I keep on sacrificing a lot to continue doing so. When we have people who can't even judge situations properly, who think speed is the only factor in winning races, who think skipping races gives you an advantage, who think they're supposed to be in the title hunt or fight for victories without having to improve themselves but because others should get slower cars, then I will keep calling them clueless and argue about it. It ruins all the fun having to deal with those things here.

I call for simple fairness and equal treatment, and instead I get arrogance and incompetence.

by definition aliens can not be human  ;)

But I can see Hristos point , up to a point ! sure you must get tired of having to race your clogs off because of the handicap , but my bet is he would race those same clogs off handicapped or not , it's the nature of the beast .

and GPL should come with a government health warning , GPL does ruin your health and can ruin your life to if you dont take the right precautions  :o

A pretty decent round for me considering a less than stellar qualifying result.  I find Jarama far too much of a pitch-'n-catch style of circuit.  Not to my tastes of precision driving.

Much of the race I was on my own as runners ahead were long gone and chasers were well back.  Pleased to see that I scored only one '64' lap.

Fine job by Rocket Ronnie for the win!  Evil a very useful P2.  Well done.  And Tristan recovering to score the last podium slot.  Impressive in that he was behind me in an early lap thanks to an off.

Good job by DeanL to score a worthy P5 in the Cooper.  If I HAD to drive the T84 anywhere, this would have been the place I would have picked.

I'm with Doni on this one - Jarama & me really don't get on but thanks to incidents ahead I found myself up to 4th during the early laps. Came under serious pressure from Dean, who Cooper or not, was much quicker than me & after dropping places at the start, was looking very hard for a way past. I was quite nervous that my early braking would catch Dean out as he was going much deeper into corners than I could, so after several laps of his Cooper ducking & diving large in my mirrors, there was something of a relief when he finally found a way past. My attempts to keep pace with Dean then led to a small mistake & that allowed the chasing pack to swarm all over me. Had a few big battles, particularly with Ulli, though once again this wasn't too much fun as my braking points just seemed completely at odds with the drivers behind. Unluckily for Ulli after finding a way past finally he promptly vanished into thin air with a disco - bad luck. Congrats to Ronnie for a very good win, plus Evil & Tris.     

I have been following this debate over handicaps and the views expressed, so here is my take upon things.

I start from the position that at UKGPL we are trying to keep all of our championships as competitive and engaging as we can, for as long as we can.
In saying that,  I mean that it is no-one’s interest to have a championship of 10 races where the final outcome can be predicted after 4 races because general interest will leak away and by the end of the season we have grids of only 5-6 cars. Maybe 2 or 3 are podium candidates and the rest are diehard GPL’ers  who will turn up for a race whatever their chances of winning or not, simply because they enjoy GPL and that is no way meant as a slight upon those who just enjoy being in a race.
We have had this situation of dwindling grids in the past, and it is why handicaps were introduced as an attempt to prolong the competition and interest from all involved.

Historically it has meant that the same few drivers  ( most notably Hristo ) have found themselves in less competitive cars from which they have had to extract the maximum performance in order to stay in contention for points/podium places and their league position.
I have some sympathy with Hristo’s view that it is up to others to put in the effort and practice to be as fast as he is, rather than rely on being given a faster car to “compensate” for their lack of effort.  I think we must recognise that not everyone is as committed to sim racing as he is and many do it for the pleasure of racing against other like minded people.

The point of contention here is about where the handicap line is drawn. It should not be so draconian that it effectively prevents the fastest drivers from competing for a win or gaining a podium place and allows those who are genuinely slower to profit without any effort. Rather it should attempt to shrink the gap between the front and rear of the grid to encourage closer racing, thus offering an inducement to the slower drivers to up their speed just a little and possibly challenge for the higher positions. Thus rewarding them for a little more commitment.  If it works properly,  in time the slower driver should improve and the overall quality of the grids will be better.

Occasionally, I have found myself in the position of having to take a handicap chassis because of my total points tally in a championship and it does make the racing harder. I find that I have to change my approach to the race and usually make time over the preceeding weekend to do some serious off line practice. Instead of having a car that might have the straight line speed to attack or defend a position it will require a car that can put in consistently fast lap times by maximising the speed that can be carried through a corner, because inevitably the handicapped car will be slower on the straights. Personally I gain some quiet satisfaction from being able to get a handicap car into the sharp end of a grid, but that is a very subjective view.
As has been pointed out, there are some tracks where the lack of top end speed makes it almost impossible to compensate no matter how hard you drive, and other tracks where the effective handicap is actually not that great because of the complexity of the circuit.
The F2 race at Jarama allowed me a free choice of car. I could have taken one of the top FVA powered cars but I decided that a car with a setup that was predictable would be a better option on such a complex circuit and I had a setup for Brands hatch that I thought would be good.
OK, so the Lola BMW is not as bad as the Ferrari or the BT14 but it is definitely in the lower levels of performance, but I managed to put it on pole with race fuel in the tank. Whether that is down to luck/ability/wind direction or sheer 10/10ths driving I’ll leave to you to decide. (I don’t think I have the ability to have extracted that sort of time from the Fez or BT14). What I do know is that for the race I knew that I had to drive all 37 laps on the limit to compete with the faster FVA cars.
Now we come to the nub of this argument.
I personally have no problem having to drive at my personal limit in any car to get a good finish, in fact I find that quite rewarding,  but I think when one feels that the combination of track and handicap car on offer will prevent you from scoring  anything but a minor place, unless there are a bucket load of retirements, the motivation to race is lost. Especially if it seems that you are far more heavily penalised than your immediate championship contenders.

The biggest issue around the current situation here it seems, is that no-one foresaw how the handicaps could or would be implemented  for the F2’s and the effect that it might have.  If I recall correctly no-one highlighted this possible problem when we all registered for the current season, and we all accepted the rules in the spirit that they were proposed.
 Although I have sympathy with the argument that it is unfair, it is very difficult to change things mid-season without someone else calling “foul”. Now that a couple of drivers have already been handicapped, how can we not handicap other drivers in a similar way later in the season?  To change the handicap system now would only make matters worse for those who have already been forced to use a slower car.

I think we should all remember that the mods are only human and do not deliberately set out to provoke arguments. Trust me, all that the mods want is a quiet life with no reported incidents  and no acrimonious exchanges on the forums leaving us with more time for practice and racing ….we can but dream I suppose.

Yes we can get it wrong, maybe by not foreseeing possible implications of our ideas, but our intentions are always to make the racing within UKGPL as close and enjoyable as possible for everyone.
UKGPL has continued to attract more members, so we must be doing more things right than we are getting wrong.
Our championships are usually not decided until the last couple of races and positions are contested right down through the grids and this keeps the whole thing alive for the whole season.
If the current handicap system in F2’s is not working as intended then I have no doubt that it WILL be changed for next season.

Jarama was race no5 , halfway through season , after  4 races people were making an art of complaining about not being able to compete due to a handicap system which is deemed ( by them ) to be unfare . even though the majority seem satisfied . The idea of handicapping was I thought also to encourage closer racing between drivers of different skill levels, rather than one or two drivers running off with the race . 
I think everyone agrees we need to have a handicap of sorts to maintain a balance and keep the championship alive but I think it a bit early in the season to start a handicap war .

 

Good points and well said, Evil, but I wasn't really complaining about being handicapped in this particular case, although I highlighted it in my reply to Jason as a part of a more general case.

My point is, how can it be fair when nobody knows in advance what kind of handicap they'll get, due to the fact that the moderator decides it, not a system. Sure, he uses a system to select which cars to hand out, but how can we race if it's such an unknown? Can't we at least have some guidelines so it's more consistent, or as it turned out to be the case in 65s, to point out openly what is the system the moderator uses and not just write "may or may not handicap" in the race briefing? As long as it makes sense and doesn't create big gaps between direct competitors, I wouldn't mind it as much, but it has to be transparent.

Do we get a handicap for a 20 points lead? Is it different for a 50 points lead? Do we get handicapped on tracks like Spa or not? Does 2nd place get handicapped under certain circumstances? What about 3rd? Is driver pace AND consistency taken into account for handicapping or is it just championship based? Nothing of that is clear at the moment, in this division, and to much of an extent, in the 65s Pro/Int mix division (can't speak for Novices because I'm not sure what kind of system they use).

What??....Do I have to wear a bloody condom to do this as well????

I'd like to offer some insight, into why handicapping controversy arises for our Moderators.

Some folks might not realize why the cars we race, vary as they do between fastest, and slowest.  It's because they're each different, and different differences, need different handicap systems.  And because of this, new Mods might sometimes need experimentation, before they're perfect.

GPL was made to be as realistic as possible.  The car's performance, their handling characteristics, their power to weight, their slip angles - everything is factored in, to the best ability of the program and programmers.  Wherever possible, everything is factored in from actual data.  Some of the lengthy time spent on each new Mod, is involved in accurately recreating each car as it really was.  

Some racers might argue we should start making cars, with evenly spaced performance.  Why not simply make 5 sets of fantasy cars - Mod A, B, C, D, E, and race them mostly on fantasy tracks.  Well, where's the character in that - what have you to compare with - there's not much room for the imagination to roam in.  Agreed, handicapping would be easy.

The fact is, the teams who make these Mods have a specific goal - to recreate a moment in time - a specific racing era.  Each individual racing teams cars, are built to perform as in reality, regardless of all other cars, on the same track, at the same time.  When we drive these cars, we're able to compare ourselves with the greatest drivers of that age, and in the most realistic way most of us will ever experience.  It's up to our Moderators to do a good job, in making the handicap system fit the cars.

My race was a repeat of Fridays race, with some fun laps, and then a signal loss.  In GT's, after disco practice, it seemed sensible to ride around at the rear, before leaving.  Jarama is a real challenge, so it seemed sensible to ride around at the front.  And I'd a great battle shaping up with Blito there, before an instantaneous disintegration made it rather difficult.  I thought having a landline, would give priority over several Wi-fi users - I was wrong!  >:(  

Can I point out that I was handicapped with a BT7 in novices a few seasons ago and won 3 times with it against a fairly competitive field so I do know what it takes, I am not clueless and nor do I think I am being arrogant.  What I am is insulted by your personal jibe at me.
Take some advice please Hristo and just chill a little! This is a game, played for fun against other people who are doing it mostly for a bit of a laugh and some relaxation. All people want to see is some close action.  

As for the handicap thing, its only there to prevent a driver from runninG away with things week in week out. In the old days of UKGPL we had so many drivers and so many divisions we didn't need to handicap anyone - they just went up a division at seasons end and that took care of everything. Sadly there arent enough of us to do that anymore.  As for my view, well I can take it or leave it. I really am not bothered either way except perhaps for the original 67s where the Lotus advantage is so extreme we would run the risk of 19 green and yellow cars every race.....

I was gutted to see you drop out - I actually thought you had tangled with Phillipe.. I seemed to be reeling you in whilst you were lapping Phillipe and then you just disappeared and poor Phillipe was left wobbling around in the middle of the track with my Mclaren up his tailpipe.
The only "ugly" moment in what was otherwise a great race....

You deserved it, by saying I was being over-dramatic every time. I wasn't making things up though, I was being honest, so you can't just say it without being aware of the facts first.

As for the handicaps, yes, making it closer is the aim, but when you end up with drivers who don't care to improve anymore (hiding behind "it's for fun" argument or the "he's alien I'm not" argument) and keep on handicapping others all the time, it gets very unfair at times. I understand GPL takes time to learn and people have different capacity, but when I see someone who shows glimpses of potential but does not go for it as I did, and instead relies on getting a quicker car continuously, and when this happens season after season after season, why should I be content with it? Just because I have a history and the other person doesn't? Just because I happened to do a good lap in Q or the R? Or just because I happened to survive by the end of a race and all others did not? I guarantee you that if I was to join UKGPL tomorrow and had no history in it, things would be very different. I was just about as fast when I joined UKGPL as I am now, yet everyone was OK with things back then, but gradually people began to handicap me just based on my name and stats instead of my actual performance. I did improve noticeably at some point, then it went downhill again in the last 2 years, for reasons I don't want to discuss. Now when I'm actually slower and more inconsistent than my prime time, people still look at it that way and I have to suffer because of it? Not going to happen, it's not objective nor is it fair and I can't accept it.

As for Martin's point about realism, the mods and the original 67 in particular aren't as realistic parameters-wise as you claim, nor am I really sure the idea is to run a full grid of mixed chassis instead of going more towards spec races. Sure, it's nice to see a colorful grid, but we're not watching the races, we're taking part in them, thus as drivers we should focus on what is fun for us and what is fair for us all as a group. I don't find it any more fun racing against all chassis than racing against 1 or 2, the fun comes from the close racing, at least for me, but not just randomly close, but close between drivers of similar ability.

I feel a little embarrassed to mention my win at Jarama amid the ongoing furore on handicapping, but thanks to anyone who has commented on this instead.

Grats to Clive for spinning out of my way and Tris for trying to win from the back, much appreciated guys. Grats also to Dean on scoring good points, job well done mate. See you all at Monza 10k.

Okay, its back to anyone still wishing to discuss handicapping  ::) ::) ::)

A great win Ronnie - Monaco is known as a track where the driver makes a big difference to performance.  Jarama is much the same.

Response to Hristo - agreed, the original '67's weren't perfect physicswise.  GPL was groundbreaking work, and built to a budget.  Improvements were made during the first Mod's development of '65. 

It's no suprise, that to a pure racer, a colourful and varied collection of machinery, is less important than it's useability.  A spec. series is the purest form of racing.  But if everyone is interested in winning, it requires a spec. series of drivers, of similar ability, for such a series to be successful. 

I prefer realism, and use of all the cars we'd actually have seen.  We seem to be losing this.  I might mention, the F2 Ferrari was only seen once, during the actual '67 championship.  It would be nice to have the embarrassment of such spread about, but suspect that would require more complex rules, and that might prevent new drivers from getting started with us, and generally confuse. 

Hi all,
GRATS Podium and all finishers.
About lap 14 I unfortunately had a technical problem –FREEZE!!! – incl. computer restart, strange – forgot that it's still possible.
Anyway I had a lot of fun, because of so much fast racers. Highlight was an extraordinarily close duel with Mr. Heller – 5 corners side by side …
THX for racing with you all last night.
I‘m sure we will meet on track again this year.
uli

Screen freeze (with looping sound) that won't respond to "Esc", alt-tab, or even ctrl-alt-del? Instead of a hard shut-down, try just pulling the steering wheel USB cable out of the computer. That's usually enough of a "kick" to get my system responding again (unfortunately, just back to the desktop, not back into the race  :( ), but it's more gentle to the system than pulling the plug (which is what a hard shut-down is, in essence).

Better luck next time.

I must apologise to Ronnie for not acknowledging his win at Jarama. I confess my attention was distracted by the ongoing handicap debate.

He drove a perfect race to take the win and I threw it away attempting to push the Lola BMW to take corners quicker than it could...hence my spin. I think Ronnie and Raoni sabotaged my prib display somehow, because I was being told that I had a lead of 350 mtrs and when I crossed the line a lap later it was down to 75mtrs and I was still running at the same lap pace??? It was quite a shock to see the 2 of them looming in my mirrors when I was already dreaming of cool champagne  :-[
It took a while to regain my rhythm after the spin and it was not until I stopped trying to force the pace and relaxed that I started to close the gap to Raoni. I minor excursion across the grass at T1 set back my plans, but a few laps later I caught and passed Raoni who was having some problems with his keyboard/brakes/left turns.
That left just Ronnie to catch and a great many backmarkers to negotiate for both of us. Ronnie's pace was such that I really had to drive at 100% accuracy to gain on him, sometimes he would be slower because of lapping cars and I would close, only to lose the same margin as I negotiated the same cars. I have no complaints about those I lapped, everyone allowed me to pass as soon as it was safe and practical and I guess it was the same for Ronnie.
On the last lap I was closing down the last few mtrs to Ronnie's gearbox but I suspect that Ronnie was managing the gap to take the chequered flag first without any great drama. Maybe another couple of laps would have been interesting , but I made a mistake and paid for it. Or rather, Ronnie took his chance and held onto it  ;).
Grats to Tris for bringing home 3rd spot from the rear of the field





What is this of which you speak!!?? something that I have experienced many times recently. Are you suggesting that the problem lies within the USB ports? or that there is a possible overload in that department?

No, just a way to deal with the aftermath, not a prevention, unfortunately.  :(

Well my wife reckons GPL must be better than her because it gets more of my attention than she does on some evenings... :nono: and I can make a race last for 50 minutes?? ::) I'm not sure what she is getting at there :blink: :whistling:

  Jarama is a track that always go well!

  Little White Lotus was perfect. ;D

At least you're a stud in GPL Evil   ;D

Most of us can't even claim that fame.   :laugh:

After downloading and scoping the server replay I'll say well done to everyone on a difficult track. Nice patience by all in the opening laps. Jarama is a tough little track but these cars and period realism make it worthwhile for sure. Al's mention of braking point variances was spot on and I was on both sides of that predicament. I must again applaud those who managed to keep things clean throughout. I'm sure that fun is what we are all seeking here.   :)

Peace

RJ

I take a good start, but 2 mistakes in the 2 first laps put me far from the lead.. :-\...lap 7_I 'm 6 and come back on Dean , but I can't catch him , the cooper is realy quick :o ( driver too ) and I have to wait 13 laps to overpass him !!!!. :P...lap 22_I'm 4 th and get Raoni in visual.....I close quickely the gap .....he seems in loose ...and I can attack him at lap 23, in the straight line.. ???.but as he like to do, Raoni keep the inside line and close the door !!!????I have to brake and nearly stop to avoid a contact, loose 200m .. :-\ >:(.!!???...why a sutch behaviour when you know you have a keys problem !??.....even when you don't have a keys problem, you do the same ( same in W.Glenn...). >:(..let me tell you that is not fair play....you must accept to be overpass...if you think you are quicker, ok , you will overpass at your time....but not in force like in W.Glenn where you kick me out !!!. >:(...so after loosing too mutch time , I lost all chance to catch Evil ....but finish 3rd after the bads early laps is not so bad.......
well done Ronnie é Evil ..... 8)
...c u at Monza10k...............
 :-\

Tristan, the only difference between me and you is simple: I'm fair and you're not. That's it!

When I want to defend my position, I just go to the inside line and don't go back to the previous one. If you manage to pass me on the outside, well done! If not, patience. By the way, I'll keep doing the same thing always when I find it necessary, it doesn't matter the driver who is behind me. Ask Evil and Ronnie, who had battles with me in Jarama, if I was fair or unfair.

You're unfair. You usually do zig-zags, moving more than once your line on a straight, to avoid people catching your slipstream. You did this with me and Hristo in Watkins. You did this too in Albi (Pro trophy) in an even more unfair way, with at least 3 or 4 drivers.

Before calling someone as a cheater, try to look at yourself and what you usually do on the track. Don't do to the others what you don't want them to do for you ;)

By the way, impressive win, Ronnie!! You were extremelly quick and calm when under pressure. Fantastic job!
Grats to Evil too, who recovered from a spin and fought really hard for the win.

Sorry it can't be considered as a fair behavior from my POV.

defending the inside line is fair behaviour.... one move to the inside and stay on the inside... thats fair and acceptable in all forms of motorsport..
weaving is another matter entirely

well Raoni, the first behaviour when you claim you'r fair is to apologies when you kick out someone off the track.....and till now, I don't hear anything about !??....even in your last post, you avoid to answer to this !!?....I'm just talking about gentlemen drivers here ,...you know ?.....
...now, about my "unfair behaviour".....( lol ).....what is the most dangerous and unfair driving ? 1/ changing line 2 times to escape the slipstream whith absolutly no risk for the guy behind who is too far away ( he 's just frustrated to don't catch the slipstream ).... or, 2/ closing every doors as possible by keeping the inside, just to don't be overpassed by somebody clearly quicker at that instant of the race !???....and that when the cars are close together !!!....you never do that when you have 150 m advance  !  isn't it ?  and you tel me to take the outside  where most of the time it's just impossible ....or to wait??? to wait for what man ???waiting for that I'm taking maximum risk to overpass you ???....Raoni if you are soooo quick, let the guy pass and you will easely pass him right to the next sector...;)
....last point I want to make clear.....I' m not zig-zaging as you said, cause zig-zaging is blocking the other driver, and I never block a driver who is overpassing me and I never change my line when the cars are close thogether, it's to dangerous for both of them but I try to let maximum room for the overpass....that the difference between you and me .....sorry Raoni, you are probably the quicker keyboard driver in GPL, but this don't give you the right to block me specialy when you got a keyboard problem since the race !!!...as you said.......I let you meditate on a gentleman behaviour for the futur ......and to finish, what is the rull ? .....is it allowed to change the line to escape the slipstream ?....this mean of corse that the car behind is not close , other way no nead to escape the slipstream, it's too late !....I'm not zig-zaging m8 ......you'are blocking for shure..... :angel:

I didn't apologize because you weren't drive fair at Watkins, that's it! I usually don't apologize to people who drive in an unfair way. Remember F2 race at Jops Siffert. That day I made a mistake at the start and I did apologize to you, simple as that.

By the way, if you pay attention to things (especially Evil's post) you will notice that my keyboard problem was only for left corners, and we were battling on a right turn. I wasn't having any problems on right corners. So, try to find a better excuse... ;)

OK, you said that there is no rule for weaving (or zig-zagging) to avoid slipstream (although it's - in my humble opinion - a matter of fair driving and ethic than a rule). So, is there a rule prohibiting me to stay on the inside line? Because you're saying that it's unfair! So I'd like you to show me where I can find that it's unfair driving...

You claim that you're are quicker, but I don't understand what quickness is that because every race you're behind me and has to try to overtake. So you do your huge amount of mistakes and then you want people to open room to you? Is it? In your place, I would advise not to spin so much, then you don't lose so much time, lots of positions and then you don't need to lose time and patience with slow drivers like me :)

I'll keep driving in the same way I always do, doesn't matter who is the driver behind me. If I find necessary defending my place, I'll do FAIRLY (moving only once to the inside, remember that!).

Weaving, zig-zagging or whatever similar, never! It's against my motorsport principles...

we had this come up a few seasons ago and you are not allowed to weave or zig zag , you are allowed one move when you have another car following you , having said that if you are trying to over take a car that move can't be counted as weaving by a car behind you .

if you need a better or more detailed explanation don't hesitate to ask Clive ..

john

And Raoni left plenty of room on the outside (even all the way through to the apex of T2, in case Tristan had tried to go around the outside, above and beyond what's required). Perfectly clean, considerate, and quality driving IMO. If any door was "closed", it was done halfway back up the straight when he moved to the inside, in plenty of time, with plenty of room.

note: I'm only talking about that corner on that lap (which is all I watched of that battle).

I totally agree with you Magic.

So Raoni, if  "you" think somebody have a unfair driving you give you the right to kick him out of track with no apologies !!.......and  you claim it hight and clear !!....humm ...simple as that !!.....what a nice demonstration of a gentleman driver behaviour !!!!....is it also at your humble opinion what you call fair driving and ethic I presume . :D    .....it's a chance that the guns are not autorized in motor racing ... :laugh:
....well I have try to explain the difference betwin what you call 'waiving'...( absolutly safe manover -the cars are not close toghether and I dont see what the matter with that), and blocking a driver by keeping the inside, forcing the other to hard bracking or taking the outside where you perfectly know that is just impossible to overpass on the outside...( try to make the outside on me at The Loop or at Big Bend...just to laught a little :)...or just wait to the next oportunitie where you will do the same manover ????....for shure, I have the choise !!.....but in fact, yes blocking somebody is unfair for me is just a recognition of feebleness or powerlessness. :P
....if I 'm changing line ,I don't make you lost any time ( just don't gain easy time ! )....but if you blocked me , you make me loose time , mutch time ....can you see the enormous difference ??

.....Dean, it's not halfway back, and he make the moove when he feel me in is back and if you watch well , he stay in the middle of the track, he start his ( I 'm at 235 km/h)moove 3s before the point break where the cars are very ( 50 cm ) close,  not plenty of room  at all !!yess plenty of room on his bothsides, he is right in the midle of the track, 'cause he's not on the perfect line when he keep the inside, and also for this reason he have to break earlyer than if he was on the good line and that's normal, otherways he can't turn , and you also can see that he roll on the pavement at the inside ( perfectly clean ??...are you shure ? ), and yes he let me plenty of - bad - room on the outside , of course he can't take the inside and the outside in the same time ;)....but I 'm shure if he can he will do also ... :-*

......that is safe is fair..........that is dangerous is unfair .....and if you had or make some real racing you must easely anderstand that....

Look, it's pretty simple really, at least from my perspective. First, about weaving vs. blocking:

You are allowed to break the tow, as long as you're not actually moving as a response to a driver's attempt to pass you, which would then be considered blocking. As long as there is a distance from the car behind, you can try and break the tow. Personally I don't think weaving too much is efficient, it loses you straight line speed and you don't really gain much because it's not so difficult for the driver behind to predict when you're about to weave and move along with you, lol.

Second, about defending by taking the inside line:

Again, it's perfectly fine, as long as you don't change your line once another drive is close to you or side by side with you. Sure, I complain about people driving too defensively early in the race, because it's counter-productive for both drivers compared to their other opponents who take the normal lines, but it's not against the rules.

In terms of etiquette, fairness, it's too subjective and even if we complain, it's more important to look at it in terms of blocking vs. defending, rather than what is considered ethic and what isn't.

total agree with you H. and I know that it's not against the rules to keep the inside, just like to break the tow....  in my first post I was trying to tel to Raoni that is not cool, not safe, not fine , unfair and no fun to block like this,(cause he change of line at the late moment, not when he have 50 or 100m gap)..... all specialy when he got a technical problem who make him loose 1 or 2s or more by lap !.......  in 1967, the pilotes was all gentleman driver, based on respect of the others , a good fighting spirit blowing throught the air....in this times, motorsports was very dangerous     ( one dead hitch 2 races !!! ) ......when I drive in our favorite sim racing  GPL , I do my best to be in this spirit of the '67, and I try to forget that it's just a simulation and that I can crash a car who cost 20.000 dollars and staying alive ( just have to reset  !)then , as many others drivers,I'm very carefull about no risk of contact as possible and a good fighting spirit of a gentleman driver.             
Ihad a good battle whith you H. at the Glenn, in a good spirit, I try to take minimum risk during this fight and it was great fun for shure !( even if an racing incident stop it )....I got also a fight with Raoni but it was mutch less funy,till he want absolutly over take me at big bend but out of control , he kick me out ..and I was not blocking by let a big room for him 'cause I feel the thing append ...I was ready to pardon him but when I don't see any sign of appologies, I do the remarque too him.....
.... for me defending is keeping the good( faster ) line as possible ( it's there where you are normaly the quicker ...) if the guy behind is faster, he have to manadge with this.....if I have to change my faster line to avoid to be overpassed , then I block !..it's quite clear ....of course it's not against the rules, but for me it's realy not a nice spirit of racing to defending that way, it's just a proov of feebleness....so for me that the big difference between blocking and defending..... 8)

We have just to have a look on the graphic of the race History to understand Magic was blocked and the former simracer was not only defending its position   ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Analysis/S24_F2_R05_L_2013_03_17_Jarama/RaceGraphics2.html (http://ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Analysis/S24_F2_R05_L_2013_03_17_Jarama/RaceGraphics2.html)
Any doubt to talk about a non-fairplay behavior.

Please, you can't draw any conclusions from such a graph, lol... The only way to judge properly is to have a look at the replay.

viz. Bernoldi and Coulthard, Monaco, 2001.

Slowing someone down by driving defensively isn't the same as blocking... please, use some common sense, lol.

LOL ;D Great sense of humor (I really hope it wasn't a serious post...haha)

Poor Senna! Thinking in this hilarious way, he should have been banned from F1 minutes after the 1992 Monaco Grand Prix ;D

That was my point, Hristo. Bernoldi held DC up for a long time, quite legally. He had every right to do what he did, it was up to DC to get past cleanly, and he couldn't. The FIA listened to David rant and said, "Too bad, sorry, that's racing".

Hearing DC call Bernoldi an idiot (in public) afterwards just knocked my perception of David down a few notches.

OK, but you replied in a way that implied you were arguing with what my post was about and it was not to show that you can't judge if someone defended a position by looking at a graph, but that you can't judge it was unfair driving and blocking, which was what tintin suggested.

Lol ! Are you the first brasilian supporter which considers the Prost behavior was a normal way when he blocked Senna at Suzuka GP 89!!??? This attitude was not acceptable for me. Although Prost' behavior was slighty understandable because there was no really lap time difference between them. When you have 4 seconds lap time diff.  of course the ethic (from a 1967 PoV  !!) is to recognize the follower is quicker and merit to gain the place, regularly.  

The ethic PoV disappeared with the investissors. But i don't think it should be the case with the sim. Only pure competitive and natural rivality should be expected (even if it shall be extreme between the best racers, as you are).  

What are you talking about?? Where on earth did you see me talking about Prost x Senna in Suzuka/89??

Geez...I'm talking about Monaco 1992 (Senna x Mansell). Read carefully before you say these bizarre things, because - honestly - you're putting yourself into an awkward situation...

It's hilarious... :D

I was just trying to explain you were defending a driving line as Prost used with Senna in Suzuka.
And this kind of behavior (which can not be considered as fair play , even if it is "legal") commonly leads to racing incident.
It is the reason why, it is not recommended as an usual driving line.
But if you do not want to see the things like me, it is not a problem Raoni, because there is no chance i have to race with you.
Nevertheless, i think some quicker racers could not be appreciated your driving style when you are "defending" your position.
And if they have a little of magic brazilian blood, it is not impossible the result could be the same as Prost/Senna racing incident.
I doubt at this time it will be a so hilarious situation.

There is no comparison between Senna's defensive driving against Mansell in 1992 Monaco and Prost hitting Senna at Suzuka 1989, so no...

It's totally legal to drive defensively, as long as you're not blocking and/or hitting the other cars.

Of course totally legal ....but not very fairplay, isn't it??

One question : what is the limit blocking / no blocking ?? Question of PoV .
 Sorry but when a guy come from the bottom to your very first places and can not overtake you, for me it is "blockage".
And such behavior has not to be encouraged.

And for the hitting, if no effort is made by each driver , of course there will be contact. Too much easy to say the fault would be due to the guy behind...
   
 

Why do you call it a lack of fair play? Are you suggesting the driver in front should just open the door for someone who's quicker? I wouldn't call that racing, there would be no battle, no skill involved in overtaking, in putting pressure on the driver in front to create an opening.

As for defending vs. blocking, I remember it was written somewhere in the UKGPL rules, it was something like this:

Defending is when the driver in front takes a defensive line before the driver behind makes a move to attack. Blocking is when the driver in front reacts to the attack to block the path of the driver behind.

Of course this is only when the cars are close to each other, it's not the same when you're at a distance and just breaking the tow/slipstream. Also, you shouldn't change lines in a braking zone because once someone is committed to a line under braking, there's little you can do if someone blocks your path and you have to avoid.

So something can be totally legal, but not "very fairplay", and you're not bringing your POV into it. Right.


Then I should get busy protesting Marco, Fulvio, Andreas, Tom, and Axel for the 69X race at Kya? Because they were defending (cleanly), even though I was faster and having trouble getting past them cleanly, they were blocking?

edit: spelled Axel's name wrong

As an evidence, i am wrong ...
So here, as observed by Magic following our humble Raoni Senna which believes re-playing  the final laps of Monaco 92 anywhere, the philosophy is :
"closing every doors as possible by keeping the inside, just to don't be overpassed by somebody clearly quicker"

It may be irritating, but there is a way to deal with that - put incredible pressure on the driver in front and inevitably they make a mistake. It has always worked for me, even if it takes a lot of laps, but you have to be patient.

I wouldn't say inevitably (and you've probably jinxed yourself by doing so ;) ) but almost always, and many of my most satisfying races were just like that. An example: me vs. Ronnie at Riverside earlier this season, where it took until the final corner of the final lap. I'll remember that one for a while.

Well I'm yet to see someone who never cracks under pressure.  :P

Thanks Dean, I really needed reminding of that :'(

All the times someone else has done the same to me? Denied Forgotten.  :thumbup1:

"The best revenge is ... revenge". Me, 2013

How long do weeks last on that side of the pond?

If I hadn't been in bed for two weeks with 'flu, same as that side. But as it is, look out tomorrow.

Mod report published - sorry about the delay, due to a holiday.

Thanks for the moderation report.