SimRacing.org.uk

UKGPL Season 24 Graduates Trophy for Privateers
Race 6 Silverstone

We resume the season at Silverstone. Classic layout. Classic track, site of the first ever F1 Grand Prix in 1950.

We will run Intermediate Damage with the allowance of ONE shift-R reset. No Shift-Rs are allowed in practice unless authorized by the moderator. A Shift-R (fault or not) MUST be followed by a Stop & Go. A Shift-R for tyres/fuel is not allowed. Any driver taking more then ONE Shift-R OR failing to take a Stop & Go will be disqualified from the race result.

Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL_T7_2
IP address = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 07-04-2013
Race Time = race starts at 21:30 UK time
Qualifying Time = Between 30 and 60 minutes, starting no later than 21:00 UK time
Track = Silverstone (Papy)
Variant = 67F1
Damage Model = INT
Race length = 50 minutes (laps 34)
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

Replays Available here (http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/inc_replaysS24_js.aspx)

Driver lists and token rules can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=388&theme=6)

The track can be downloaded from the link in the race list above.


The full time drivers can start to practice as soon as the server is available.  Reserve drivers can also join as soon as the server becomes available but must leave the server with 35 minutes of qualifying left, for a total of 5 minutes; this will allow any remaining full timers to join.  If there is enough space on the grid, the reserve drivers will be able to rejoin when there are 30 mins of qualifying left.  

Moderating The red zone will be fully moderated for lap 1 only. For this event the red zone will be the full lap. Other moderation will be on reported incidents only.  However any incidents that occur in the red zone that are not reported by the drivers will be reported by the moderator.  This will allow all affected drivers the opportunity to present their case before the incident is moderated.  This should ensure there are no surprises when the moderator's report is published and hence appeals will be less likely.  If you haven't received a PM about an incident before the link below the results table is removed, you can be sure that you will not appear in the moderator's report.

The chassis token system is explained on the Privateers (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=388&theme=6) standings page. Please ensure you choose a chassis that is within your budget, which can be seen by hovering the mouse over your points total in the standings.

Please restrict chat to pit messages including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

Ermmm !

Not the 1st ever F1 Grand Prix by a long stick   but the 1st GP to count for the then "new"  World Drivers Championship , won by Giuseppe "Nino" Farina driving his Alfa Romeo 158 who also went on to become the 1st Ever World Drivers Champion  ;)

To honour those brave men of 1950, perhaps the top half dozen should use that 1950 startline.

You know what I meant! If you are going to get all technical the first race officialy under F1 regulations was the 1946 Turin Grand Prix held on 1 September, the race being won by Achille Varzi in an Alfa Romeo 158 Alfetta. Anything Pre-War was not Formula 1.

Grand Prix, however, go back to the early 1900's but as they were French they couldn't possibly count.  ;D

Right - finally got my GPL Rank below 100 so I am feeling good. Can get the Lotus round in a (hopefully) competitive 1:30.2 but I am worried about the fragility of the Chapmobile.

Anyone got a setup for something a bit more reliable. My setup for the Honda is horrible. Understeery with the odd snap oversteer and cooking the right front while the others stay cool... :(

As you can see. I have recovered...  :)

I should have some Honda setups in my pack, though I probably have newer versions since I uploaded that. No understeer whatsoever in them, I promise.  :P

Can you remind me where they are H?

Well, the older ones are in my setup pack on the waza blog (link in my signature as well) here:

http://gpl.lineage2universe.com/setup-packs/

I should add my new ones when I have time, but try the old ones for now, you may like them, at least in terms of suspension settings. Change steering, brake bias, diff, etc. to your liking.

Thanks

and there I was tonight , the only guy in #ukgpl.. then I check the dates.....only 2 days early....... I should maybe be more attentive?

Snap  ;D

Well I am SOOOO glad I spent the week leading up to this practising. Lap 1. Overbrake a bit into T3 and spin. As I stop! engine blows. Take my pit stop after S/R and accelerate out of the pits. Engage 2nd and acclerate to 700 revs - yes 7000. Engine blows.

 

I know the feeling Paul. PB in qualifying, third on the grid and blow the engine getting off the line  :'( :'( :'(

Better luck next time mate.

Gutted for you as well as sorry for myself... :(

I had the unprecedented experience of two blown engines in one race. Plus another in practice. Seems a bit odd especially as other drivers had a similar occurrence. Perhaps a saboteur was at work - time to send for Poirot!

Bad luck Michael. Join our club...  ::)

Looking at those laptimes I feel I would have been quite competitive in this race but seeing as I fell asleep on the sofa at 8:30.......
... came to at 9pm to find a "motorsport on the bbc"  program on TV showcasing British F1 drivers of the 60s.  So I watched that instead..

I've never much liked Silverstone, though it's a home track.  The curbs usually curtail my attainments, which can be painful, and it becomes a lonely outing.

Prospects were not good, but my race got off to a flying start.  Actually it was more of a barrel roll.  I was in full race mode entering the 1st turn, and chanced apon a slowing Ferrari.  With a blatant rear end shunt loomed large, I cunningly ducked right, to nip through the solid wall there.  The wall refused to warp, but my connection obliged, and as a low flying missile, the Brabham works quite well! :o My apologies to both victims.  This was not the best way to forward ones aspirations to glory.  After the judges declared a four point landing, I continued unscathed.

As things settled in, there developed an annoying Honda, just out of sight behind. And with tyre temps. fluctuating, so did the distance between us.  I spotted it was Dave driving, when he briefly took a turn in front.  Meanwhile, Fabio was unchaseable ahead, though fate rarely smiles on his prospects, or their attachments.

At half distance, I suddenly had a BRM in my sights.  It was young Florian after a pitstop, who decided to dangle his tailpipes just out of reach, for most of the race remainder.  An eventual mistake allowed me an opening at Stowe, with my pass being interrupted only by the retaining wall, mid-corner.  This allowed the shadowing Honda closer, and I reverted to 5th place preservation mode.

By late race, Francesco had continued his unbroken record for engine breakage, and Florian had encountered a closer examination of the infield, towards Becketts.  This put me a miraculous 3rd, free and clear. 8)

With only 3 laps remaining, there was an annoying buzzing in my ear, causing an annoying Honda to reappear.  This had me exploring various novel areas of the track on the penultimate lap, some of them green.  We were parallel entering Stowe, but I held the inside line, while being shown the blue flag.  This seemed grossly unfair, and I refused to yield.  Then noticed there were 2 cars behind - we were being lapped!  I pressed on, while David generously yielded, and only a final lap remained.  Then the 3 brain cells kicked in, and I realised the man on my tail held the chequered flag, and I let the flying Andreas through, and inspected some earlier grass removal while the brain cells were occupied.  Podium spot, by not a lot! 

Silverstone's not such a bad place, when the GPL Gods are smiling. :D

Excellent report, Maddog, enjoyed that.

My evening was a mixture really. Qualifying saw me low but in among a tight group, meaning that I was, for once, somewhere near a decent pace in the Ferrari - something I've rarely driven before. Late on, I tried to make some daring setup changes. When the 30-second board went up for the race, I had to quickly switch setups and fix the fuel levels. Something glitched and I couldn't complete it in time.

Starting from the pit lane, then, on a hastily selected, less-than-optimal setup, I started after the pack. Was miles behind but knew that I had a setup that was very well planted so anyone making mistakes would be a juicy target. As it happened, there must have been plenty of carnage early on, because when I looked up I was already ahead of some people.

In general the race was quiet and tedious, with the odd patch of engine management and, probably due to concentration failure, a few too many minor spins. However, late on, I noticed that Michael, who had been almost a lap ahead, was suddenly just 30 seconds in front with plenty of laps left. When I found him he was spewing smoke from the engine bay and was trying to limp home, I think. I enjoyed beating a wounded rival. That's how low I've sunk.

Anyway, I seem to have been the only Ferrari to make it to the end. I believe it's meant to be a little fragile but for me, with probably the least experience with it, to get home safely seems strange. Oh well. I'll happily take what might be the biggest points haul I've ever had. See you next time!

Young? No, no, I will be 30 later this year. When I am at a concert folk there can call me grandpa Flow. 25 and lower, THATS young.

Btw. Michael Turner, what did you do when I lapped you? First you slowed down at the straight without making space, then you kicked me from the track in the next corner. Nearly destroyed my race. Not cool.

If I do not call you young Florian, I must call your Father old Andreas, and the winner cannot be old. :D

I like Silverstone , it has some interesting corners and "usually" produces some great racing . That wasn't the case last night , for some reason I couldnt get anywhere near my PB of 1m29s ish , quallified near the rear , 3.5 secs off the pole man , maybe because I was feeling clapped out after spending most of the day underneath my daughters car repairing a reluctant starter motor , maybe the lag bars which were sky high making it feel like I was driving on ice , whatever finished up lapped "again" (getting to be a habit this year)

After 34 laps 54 spins coupled with a bit of racing was suprised to finish 6th (which means the rest of you lot must really be bad  )   ::)

Grats to the Podium commiserations to Axel ( dunno what happend ?  ) looks like the chumpionship is a foregone conclusion

This was on the finishing straight of L13 for information of others. I moved left to keep to the racing line (as per official guidance) intending to lift and allow plenty of room for you to pass on my right.
However I saw you coming up on my left and moved over to the right to allow room for you to pass and stayed as far right as possible going into T1 to allow you to pass. At this point you were not in my mirrors so I could only assume that you were somewhere alongside me
to my left not having completed a pass. Unfortunately you decided to turn into the corner and into me having failed to complete the pass which you must have known as I was not in your mirrors. Decidedly uncool.
Here is an extract from the official guidance on lapping to help you avoid further incidents.

How to allow a lapping car to pass cleanly

When approached by a faster car, initially just hold your line to prevent any confusion 

If the faster driver then moves alongside in an attempt to pass, back off just very slightly to make the pass easier. Be aware in this situation that GPL only shows one following car in your mirrors. If the pass is in a corner, make sure to give as much room as possible to the other driver. Because of warping and your limited peripheral vision, this usually means running right around the outside of a corner.

If the following car does not pass you almost immediately then try to allow them to pass at a safe part of the circuit as soon as you can.

Suggestion 1 — as you brake for a corner stay well to the outside during the braking stage, then deliberately run right around the outside of the corner allowing the faster driver to pass on the inside line.

Following these guidelines will allow you let a driver lap you safely, without hindering them or yourself. At some circuits such as Monaco, it may require extra care to make this go smoothly. Ultimately, as long as you have done everything above correctly, any accident where the lapping driver hits the back of you is likely to be their fault.

Advice for the lapping driver

The lapping driver takes the majority of the responsibility to make a clean pass. If you cannot see any guaranteed clean route to pass the driver then be patient and follow them! Do not make a risky move even if it means following them for a long period. Anyone causing an accident through impatience will be penalised severely.

The lapping driver is responsible for following a slower driver at a safe distance. Slow down when approaching a slower car – the speed difference may be much larger than you expect. Their lines and braking points may be totally different to yours and they may be more likely to make mistakes. Warping will also mean that you may need to leave extra room. Lapping drivers showing a lack of care in this situation will be penalised.

LOL

After my recent experiences I should really say something about 'other drivers please take note' but dont think I should be opening another can of worms here except to say (IMO)  when being lapped it is ALWAYS better to stay on your NORMAL  racing line 

Suddenly slowing or changing  direction is courting disaster.

The person lapping does not have a god given right of passage , its up to HIM to decide when its safe to pass , not the person being lapped , anything else can and does cause confusion  .

GPL is 1967 not F1 Senna Schumaker rules

Thank you for your advice gentlemen, I will be sure to look at it...

I wonder what is so funny about that?

Did you even have a peek at the replay? Because slowing is what he did after the exit of the corner. When he passes the finish line he has 180 kmh, then instead of increasing it drops to 178 kmh.

Not god given, but he has the right to pass. At least I thought this is what blue flags do signal.

I dont even know what that means "Senna Schumaker rules"?


I cant read anything in the official guidance about staying on the racing line and then slowing down. Why not just accelerating normal then? In the race I was like, wtf what is going on here?

So then why didnt you let me pass? You didnt even break into that corner, you just rolled into it. So you knew I was there going to overtake you, why didnt you brake more than usual to allow a safe pass? Ofc I turned into the corner, assuming you were already behind me. I was totally surprised to see that you still were driving side by side with me. I wouldnt have turned into the corner if I knew this was a battle for position, because in such a case I naturally assume the other driver is right beside me, but it just wasnt the case.

ermm! my remarks were not directed at you personally Florian so dont go take the hump , and no I haven't seen the replay nor was I making a comment about your race I dont see how you got that idea .

LOL because I wanted my post to be seen as a light hearted observation not because I think the situation was funny ,more ironic in view of the way I have been pilloried because of a similar situation . (obviously I failed there )

I'm sure the moderators will view the replay and as always make a fair judgement . not up to me to comment  :)

"When approached by a faster car, initially just hold your line to prevent any confusion   
If the faster driver then moves alongside in an attempt to pass, back off just very slightly to make the pass easier"
 That is why I initially kept to my line (the racing line) and then eased off. I moved to the right only because I saw you in my mirrors coming up behind me apparently intent on passing on my left.
Going into T1 I was surprised not to see you ahead of me and stayed to the right assuming that you would stay to the left and pass me through the corner or (more sensibly) on the following straight.
Why did you assume that I was already behind you? If you couldn't see me in your mirrors then you could not and should not have assumed that you had passed me.

As the incident is now in the lap of the moderators and as I can't see any benefit in turning this into another epic saga I won't be adding any further comments.

When you moved to the right I already had to slow down the car and move into the grass to avoid contact. I wonder why you were surprised not to see me ahead if you didnt even break into the corner. Seems like a misjudgement there. I assumed you were already behind me because I lapped you there and expected sensible driving. I dont know about you, but I cant check my mirrors every two seconds when braking into a corner. There is a blind spot where a car can already be behind you but you cant see it in the mirror, if the car isnt directly behind you. Normally you see the car then 1-2 seconds later in your mirror. Sure one can check Pribluda if it says about -8 to -10m to be safe, but like I said i cant check it when braking into a corner. I rely on the backmarker to let me pass. If I know I have to drive with him like its a battle, I drive different of course.

... I moved left to keep to the racing line (as per official guidance) intending to lift and allow plenty of room for you to pass on my right.
However I saw you coming up on my left and moved over to the right to allow room for you to pass and stayed as far right as possible going into T1 to allow you to pass
[/quote]

There you made your first mistake. Also in driving and in writing as well. In the replay one can surely see that you moved from the right to the left when Florian already was there. So he had to go on the grass to avoid contact. If he had not done so your race could easily be finished. How about that? But for you it would not make a big difference: No Finish instead of being last. But some1 to loose a podium is another thing. Btw you did about the same behaviour to me, 3x you were the back-marker for me. First time I was lucky because you were about 500 meters in the infield, picking flowers or something. The other time you were with a smoking motor cruising in front of me directly on the racing-line. For this a report will be on the way. And because it looks like you are a fan of extractions from official guidance on lapping here is the simple version of the official FIA F1: "Blue flag: A driver signalled that he will soon be overtaken. He MUST let the other vehicle pass." That is simple, isn´t it? Piquet and Salazar was a good example in Hockenheim 1982.  :)

Chill out you guys this is Privateers not Pro , supposed to be fun racing for improvers novices and hopefuls , some like me who are long past there sell by date   ::)

If you want the kind of serious racing you seem to crave I suggest you might like to move up a level to Pro's
 
and BTW I dont think the FIA rules for 1982 or any other year count in UKGPL

I agree.  We are mostly more gentlemanly at Ukgpl, and here to have fun.  There are some fast guys who will make their displeasure known, because winning is important.  For most, fun racing is most important, and we all have to learn how to make this happen.

You're mistaken about F1 rules never being used Bernie.  When I appealed a bad decision, I was given a modern F1 rule, as reason for my penalty.  I've been racing 65's a lot less since.  It's a good job  our Moderators are mostly here to help us have fun.  That includes sorting out a lapping incident  -  common sense rules? :-\

The rule was quoted as it currently is in modern F1, but has been commonly accepted for much longer. That was not why the appeal was disallowed. Four wheels beyond the lines would have been off-track in 1965, let alone 1967.

Sir , I believe you are putting my good judgement and credability into disrepute ?


There is only one way to settle this


I must insist



Pistols at dawn  :o :o :o


You will be hearing from my seconds just as soon as I've saved enough green shield stamps to get my guns out of hock  ???

"Have a care Sir!"  I choose gear sticks at dawn.  But I'd like to see the Moderators rulebook first.  If either of us were to consequently pass, carelessly, would that be grounds for a penalty?  And supposing there were grass under foot, would that cause an unsavory outcoming?

And to Paul - it's not in your interest to commence debate on a long past incident.  This discussion would follow along similar lines to the recent, mid-season rule change debate.  Better to, 'Let sleeping dogs lie.' . . . . . hang on . . . .  "Curses!"  :P

Martin - it is you that constantly brings up the past. You didn't agree with the moderation. The appeal failed. As for the moderator's rulebook - it is here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/intro) - open to all.

It feels like you are quietly sniping at the moderation team which is not the 'gentlemanly' behaviour that UKGPL encourages. Maybe it is mis-interpretation of your 'humour' but that is how it reads. I suspect you know that.

"It's a good job  our Moderators are mostly here to help us have fun." implies that sometimes the Mod team are there to ensure you don't have fun or that some moderators always do that. Subtle. Actually we are there to do all the boring admin that enables the league to function at all and we are also there to ensure the rules are clear and, where possible, adhered to.

Dear Paul,

Agreed, the technicalities are boring unless personally involved.  They are then suddenly of great interest.  As you seem interested, here's my perspective . . .

Fairness is a part of Gentlemanly behavior.  It's one of the rigors of Moderating. The outcome of my now rapidly becoming famous dispute, was to create a new overarching definition of an offtrack incident, which removes earlier flexibility when Moderators are judging what is fair. A modern F1 approach was adopted, though such was not in use during our racing era.

My irritation was caused by the application of an ill-defined rule, backed up by modern F1 regulations.  I believe the purpose of tightening the rulebook, was to lessen the need for the use of common sense by Moderating staff - it's become more black & white.  As I've not ventured into this area since it's re-invention, it's had no personal effect. 

Such a vigorous response from you, was not expected?  A point was raised by Bernie, and I corrected him.  A reminder that common sense is an asset, and leads to wiser rulings is not an unusual viewpoint.  It's not necessarily in a racers nature to enjoy restrictive rules, but when applied wisely they can help to foster gentlemanly behavior.  I believe this is where I came in? 
   

That is a much more measured reply and is appreciated but you will be aware that there has been a lot of discussion about how moderating decisions have been too subjective and should be based on better defined rules and standards.

My issue (and the reason for the reply) is that you keep referring back to that appeal to highlight how 'poor' decisions continue to be made. You have also not addressed the fact that you (even if unintentionally) continue to denigrate the Moderating team - or perhaps just one member of it? Hence the 'robust' reply.


You should know that to be untrue. It was to provide a standard by which incidents can be judged. If all four wheels are beyond a well defined track limit you are 'off-track' and have to be careful when coming back on. That does not mean you cannot do it. On some tracks it is unavoidable if you want a quick time. It does mean that you have to be cognisant of other drivers around you and you cannot just wander back onto the track. The ruling (not the rule) implies a specific 'right of way'. Moderators have, and still can, apply the rule in the way they see best fits - using 'Common Sense'.

My reply was more thoughtful, as this matter threatens to take energy from your other Ukgpl duties.  I'm happy to hear in your last paragraph, that the added rules have actually added flexibility to the system.  And I have at no time said that poor decisions are being made, in this context.  The decision making process has become more automated, and this can create limitations.

There's no doubt here as-to your commitment to a fair, and even handed system of Moderation.  It's not a driving requirement to agree with every aspect of that process.  Civilized behaviour achieved with the fewest possible restrictions, would be my aim.  But I'm not running a clandestine campaign for President, or Ukgpl leadership.  I am willing to voice an opinion, where I think it's useful. 

When Bernie has a chuckle about a dispute, and I join in his humor, I don't expect a heavy hand from above, for not doggedly towing the line.  I will continue to expect an honest opinion to be tolerated.  The world is full of checks and balances.  I'm not a Czech, so I must be a balance.  Wishing you well, 



Martin.

OK. Thanks for the clarifications.

See you on track sometime.

I don't usually have reason to comment on a incident report.  I confess a meeting with Tintin, on the occasion of the 1st turn.  Judgement is I warped into his car, when both the Server, and my Client replay clearly show a reasonable distance between us.  The warp veered him into my path.  It's quite possible I would've caught his nose as I squeezed . . . umm, but the diagnosis gives me a slight headache!  :P

The judgement is that warp was not actually a major factor Martin. I can see no evidence of violent movement in the server or client replay that usually characterises warp. There is some small movement which is usually an adjustment due to collision box overlap but you are correct in saying that there is a gap between the cars. That isn't warp - that is collision box overlap which drivers have to allow for. Do feel free to appeal it if you are unhappy - that would not be something I could take part in but I really don't think warp was much of an issue here.

Take a look at 59secs + 20 frames. Tintins car 'hops' so that it is parallel with yours as your car reaches its closest point. Tintins car than diverges from yours until you hit the wall and bounce back into his path. You clearly did all you could to avoid the collision once it was clear how slow Tintin was but this was the inside of T1 L1 when caution is required. Hence the verdict.

As you can see, Moderation published. Sorry for the lateness.

I've no reason to appeal - I've no quarrel with Moderation when a warp free outcome might easily have been the same.  I've also no reason to recheck a replay as I'm aware of physics, and how it applies to a moving body.  It took me years to get it right.   

All-right then, thanks for your work Paul. I don´t know what exactly it is, but somehow I like your explanation in the Moderation.  :)

So long
Andreas