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UKGPL Season 24 - Pro Trophy - Race 6 Rouen  

Rouen, in northern France on the River Seine, is the capital of the Haute-Normandie (Upper Normandy) region and the historic capital city of Normandy. The track is well known and we use the original Papy version without pitwall.

The Pro Drivers will have a free car choice. Drivers will have to remain in that chassis for the rest of the season, they will only be allowed to swap chassis in exceptional circumstances and only with the approval of the moderator.

There will be full moderation of lap one Red Zone and reported incidents for the rest of the race.
Please submit incident reports within a week after the race so that the moderators report may be out before the next race.
Full time drivers have priority access to the server until 21.00 UK time.
Please restrict your chat to a minimum!

The specific division rules for the Pro Trophy (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=391&theme=6) have changed as the INT division has been suspended.
Handicapping will be introduced from race three onwards and will only affect the top three drivers in the championship. The top three drivers may, at the moderator's discretion, be limited to a slower car. If handicapping is in action then handicapped drivers will be notified in the race post.

For this race Florian Gebhard will be handicapped with a Honda or Cooper.

Race List	=	IGOR
Server	=	UKGPL_8
IP Address	=	tba
Race date	=	16-04-2013
Qualification Time	=	~20:45  UK time -> 30-45 min
Race Time	=	race starts at 21:30 UK time
Track	=	Rouen
Variant	=	65F1 the 2.02 Release of the 65mod should be used
Damage Model	=	PRO
Race length	=	~50 min -> 24 laps
RED ZONE	=	from race start to the exit of the Sanson lefthander
Password	=	see above (#post_event_password)
Replay	=	you will get here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Pros/)

GLA

The Honda is a handicap around here?

1 2:02.040 Timo Kujala F1 Lotus (65) Practice 2004-10-14 12:55:30 FF-Wheel Left Foot Unknown add
2 2:02.182 Elias Hirvonen F1 Lotus (65) Training 2004-06-14 20:47:03 Wheel Left Foot Paddles add
3 2:02.385 Damiano Bonetti F1 Honda (65) Training 2005-10-05 09:45:27 FF-Wheel Left Foot Unknown add
4 2:02.403 John Pickett F1 Lotus (65) Training 2004-05-04 04:26:47 Wheel Left Foot Unknown add
5 2:02.408 Greg Stewart F1 Ferrari (65) Training 2004-05-11 01:30:33 FF-Wheel Left Foot Paddles add
6 2:02.466 Blood F1 BRM (65) Training 2004-05-18 18:12:54 Wheel Left Foot Paddles add
7 2:02.542 Maik Hennel F1 BRM (65) Practice 2006-02-21 16:26:39 FF-Wheel Left Foot Paddles add
8 2:02.563 Phil Flack F1 Honda (65) Practice 2005-04-08 16:21:24 Wheel Left Foot Paddles add
9 2:02.593 Steve Cloyd (SteveC43) F1 Honda (65) Training 2005-02-06 21:18:44 FF-Wheel Left Foot Stick add
10 2:02.683 JulienM F1 Lotus (65) Practice 2009-11-28 10:15:24 FF-Wheel Left Foot Paddles add

Remember we had it in the Ints as a handicap car!

It is not slow, but more difficult to drive.

what about the BT7 ?
it is quicker than the Cooper but slower than Honda.

You have to be kidding, the Honda is some 2 seconds a lap quicker than the BT7 and Cooper here, difficult to drive or not...  ???

And no, the BT7 is the slowest of them all, the Cooper is definitely quicker by a few tenths.

I think it proved that it was too fast in the hands of the faster drivers in that inters season. This is not like the F2 series where the slow cars are extremely slow. For me the BT7 is the handiacp car for this track like the Cooper would be at tracks like Spa. In my opinion the Honda is simply not a handicap for the series leader. No problem with your decision Axel just thought I would voice my thoughts.

The Honda is faster than the BT11 at some tracks... You say it was a handicap car last season, but I raised the point multiple times back then that it's wrong to consider it slower than the BT11. I guess nobody listened and would rather insist on illusions.

I compare the  Honda with the Lotus!

What does that mean?

He means the Lotus is faster?  For a long time, we kept the same handicap system for these.  There was some debate over the placing of a couple of cars.  It was thought by some the Honda was faster than 5th place, and perhaps the BRM should be equal 1st.

I shall turn up with my BT11 and try to drive as fast as i can and see where i end up.

I couldn't give a toss what anyone else is driving.  ;)

If the Honda is quick so be it - get out there and beat it.  ;)

What is the idea of handicapping a fast driver?

Make it impossible to win?
Or make it more difficult?

More difficult, but that's the point. I (and obviously others) just don't agree with the grouping of the 65 cars in terms of raw pace, though of course it depends on the track as well. Specifically at Rouen, the Honda is definitely on par with BT11, due to the long straights and fast corners.

Florian was driving a Lotus until now!

Well the Honda will definitely be different and certainly harder! He might take the Cooper  ::)

 ;D ;D ;D I think that's the point Axel, giving a Honda/Cooper choice generated the confusion. Theres certainly people who have more knowledge than me on here, but I wouldn't think that for a driver leading the charts in the pros any 65 car would feel particularly harder to drive than the next one, and Honda is a couple of tenths off the Lotus in the WR anyway.

I guess the dilemma here is that some drivers can extract almost 100% of the performance from any car and others stay with, and develop a favourite car to give them a fast setup.

Because of handicap rules in the past I was forced asked politely  ::) to take the BT7 or Cooper. It is possible to make any chassis in 65's competitive but it is in direct proportion to the drivers natural ability and the time they can find for off line practice. In my case it was very little ability, and many laps of practice when i could find time.
As a result I have some pretty good setups for the slower cars that allow me to get respectable lap times at most tracks, where outright straight line speed is not the overwhelming requirement. Using the BT7 at somewhere like Monza 10k is torture because you are never going to match the other cars for pace, in fact you might even get dropped from the slipstream if you do not stay right on the gearbox of the car in front!! But, provided there are sufficient corners and sections where the correct line and demon braking can exploited on a circuit then the slower cars have a chance if the driver is good enough.

Maybe I should not admit this, but I have NEVER liked the 67 BRM even since GPL was released and I don't think I have a single usuable setup for that car. I keep promising myself that I will make an effort to tame the Beast of Bourne, but because there is always an alternative chassis ( Honda or Cooper ) available I wimp out. If however there was a handicap system for the 67's that forced me into that green monster, I might have put in the effort and found the sweet spot of the BRM. Incidentally taming the 67 BRM would also improve my GPL Rank massively as it is the ommision of those lap times that holds my rank where it is.

So maybe being forced to use a slower chassis seems harsh, in the long run it maybe improves you as a driver and racer?

It certainly does, since you have no choice but to work hard and compensate for the lack of speed of the car. I should know after spending years stuck in the BT7 here.

I just wonder, if I was leading the championship, would I have been given the choice of Honda and Cooper?

NOPE  ;D

Why not? Florian is about as fast as I am, you can clearly see that in the races where we're both in the Lotus. The gap between Honda and Cooper is quite big, up to 2 seconds at some tracks, and I'm not even talking about tracks like Spa...

Well, to be serious, Florian is fast but not always accurate, whereas you are an acknowledged master of the Honda - giving you the White Whale would be no handicap whatsoever whereas its unfamiliarity might handicap Herr Gebhart Jnr.

May be so, yet giving me the Cooper or BT7, which are MUCH slower than the Honda, would rob me of chances to fight for victory completely. I drive the Lotus and yet it was very tough battle in all races this season. Go watch the replays if you don't believe me. As we discussed yesterday, isn't the idea of handicap to make it more difficult, not make it impossible to win? The Honda is obviously slower than the Lotus, so if I'm in a Honda, it would be more difficult than it is at the moment. If I still win, it would be because I'm slightly quicker and deserve it, not because I was not handicapped enough... you make it sound like I just shouldn't win at all.  ???

As the handicap only applies to the championship leaders the fact that you might not be able to win would have the effect of equalising the points to those behind. The handicaps are an artificial way of extending the championship and, as such, I don't like them much but I don't think it can be argued that the effect has been to lengthen championships. In fact, in the Novices last year, Rob should have easily won but because he spent most of the season in the BT7 he was pipped in the last race but what cost him the championship was one really poor outing where he was penalised for a rear end shunt. The art is to maximise the results when handicapped although there are other strategies such as staying fourth in the championship to avoid handicapping.

It was a shame that last years Novices was settled on handicapping and moderation but there can be no doubt that they do have the effect for which they were intended otherwise Rob would have won it by Race 6.

This is the main reason why I'm voting for 3 divisions running smaller but tighter grids, driving skill-wise. It would make it much better in terms of racing, without the need of heavy handicap (if any), plus it would make the moderator's job easier as well.

Yes, I am also for the 3 grids!

Hristo, my decision to give you a Cooper in Mexico was in the belief that you can win the race with it!

Your Cooper PB is a 1:50.962 !

The race FL of your opponents were a 1:51.760 of Tris and a 1:51.696 by Clive and a 1:52.233 by Florian!

So you had some reserve to manage a win...

It's not about pure qualifying (or end of race with clear track) lap times though. With the big difference in straight line speed, even if you start on pole, you are down to 4th or 5th, if not lower, by the time the field reaches T1. Afterwards it's nearly impossible to make a pass and make it stick, even if you're quicker in the corners. The slipstream just negates any possible advantage you may get in corners. Besides, people have really improved since previous seasons, the qualifying sessions and races are very competitive! Even if I have the Lotus, it's not easy at all at the moment. We're actually lucky Tristan has elected to use the Honda this season, otherwise I'm not sure I would have an answer for his current pace.

"it's nearly impossible", but possible!

Thats why it is called a handicap!

And you agree that the Honda is a big handicap for Tristan, so why not for Florian?

Possible only if those in front retire or spin off, which is not something I like to rely on. In terms of pure pace and racing, it's just impossible, all other factors equal.

And no, I didn't say it's a big handicap for Tristan. He was just a second off from my Lotus time in this race and I'm sure he didn't even get slipstream in Q. Besides, it's his own choice to take the Honda at the start of the season. At Aintree he was right there in the fight for victory and at quicker tracks he would be a favorite for the win. Had Florian actually raced yesterday, I'm sure he was going to be in the fight for victory, just as Clutch was in his BT11.

There is a noticeable gap between Cooper/BT7 and the other cars, so you have to consider it individually for each track. At a track like Rouen and with slipstream in mind, all but those 2 cars are pretty much equal in terms of race pace.

Assuming we had a handicap would you just handicap the top two with those two chassis H? It has always been difficult to find a third chassis as a handicap chassis but the Honda would fit the bill on a really twisty track with no huge straights. That is probably why I don't like Brands Hatch!

It depends how much you want to handicap. Ideally I think the top 3 or 4 should be handicapped, with 3 or 4 groups of cars related to performance, plus employing the thing we do in F2 this season where the top driver is given the slowest cars only if he/she leads by 50 or more points. For 65s I would suggest something like this:

Top driver leading by 50 or more - BT7 and Cooper only.
Top driver leading by less than 50 - Honda or BT11 (depending on track), plus BT7 and Cooper (not that anyone sane would bother).
2nd placed driver - Honda, BT11, BT7 and Cooper, regardless of track.
3rd placed driver - all cars except Lotus and maybe BRM (though it's mostly competitive at tracks with long straights).
4th placed driver - same as 3rd, or no handicap.
All other drivers - free choice in EVERY race. In other words, no mandatory use of single chassis for the whole season. I simply don't see the point in it if we have handicap.

Now, I'm not an expert with cars like BRM and Ferrari, because I have hardly driven them, but coming from observation during the last couple of seasons, that's how I see it. Also, this is assuming the grid is relatively tight and not too much of a mix in terms of driver skill level.

Food for thought. Thanks. We definitely want to overhaul the handicap system for Season 25. Partly depends on whether we can run Inters or not.

Why isn´t the handycap system abolished completely? What does it offer? Where is the sense in affecting the championship in an artificial way? Can´t we do a poll to let the drivers decide if the majority wants a handycap system or not? No matter if there is a handycap or not intermediates won´t be able to fight for podium. Does it matter if they are 50 points behind or 100 at the end of the season? Fastest driver should win, end of story. No matter if it happens after six races or after the tenth. If I am not fast enough I should try to become faster, not hope my opponents will get handycapped.

I totally agree!!

Göran

PS. The handicap hassles is an important reason for me to not run the pro this season.

With handicaps always being a contentious matter, 65's might be a candidate for a 67 style of restriction.  If properly balanced, you might see a wider range of cars being used.  Restraints could be applied by limiting the tokens available to top runners, and be fixed before the Season starts.

Unfortunately some don't think like that and prefer to slow down others, rather then work to become faster. I'm OK with handicap, as long as it's not severe. Giving people BT7 and Cooper I consider a severe handicap, unless they have a huge lead in the points. Likewise in all other divisions and mods we run in UKGPL.

I like the 67 token system a lot. Puts a nice flavor to the competition. Dunno why it isnt used for every series.

if you limit the number of tokens for top runners you would he handicapping them and that is totally against against the point of the tokens system which gives everybody the same amount of tokens (depending on the number of races you start and if before half way point of the season) .

so if you were to limit the number of tokens for top drivers you would be forcing them into slower cars , it would be handicapping . the token system gives each driver equal number of token and lets them spend them as they wish over a season . 

LOL

It was me who did enforce the no handicap rule in Pro!

Its my 5th season in 65s and I work hard to become faster ;D
I made the decision to not take a Lotus for this season because I thought the Int drivers should have a little advantage taking the top cars.
But most of the aliens took it...

So for the next season we will have a Lotus 33 spec series :P

I don't see why you have to take it personally. What I said is really true about some people, without mentioning names. You can't say everyone is willing to practice hard and improve, because that's simply not true. As for Lotus, I took it because I've never driven it properly before and because I was expecting this to be a no-handicap series.

As for tokens, it's not a handicap system at all, so whether we use it or not, what you end up with is a pure driver's championship that is only decided by ability and no outside intervention. As I said though, I don't mind some form of handicap, as long as it doesn't become too severe or inconsistent.

I'm not really a fan of handicapping though will always respect the Mods decision and fully understand the valid reasons for it. Personally I'd rather run around at the back and be fairly beaten by those faster than me that beat someone who has been forced to drive a slower car. If they choose that car of their own free will, then thats fine.

Take Rouen for example. After years of trying, i actually managed to maintain pace with Itchov and even challenged for the lead on raw pace alone. I have been waiting years to try to beat one of the fastest GPL players in the world in 'equal' machinery, as that gives such a great sense of achievement. If Itchov had been driving round in a BT7, it wouldn't have meant as much to me as the competition isn't 'equal' and the result hasn't been earnt.

It will be years again till that happens (as i'm a Rouen specialist to a degree), but its worth it to have a race where the result was decided on race pace alone.

Fastest guy should win, though i realise there is a risk of the Championship being over after a few races, which could, if it happens all the time, lead to a decline in numbers competing. 3 divisions is the answer for 65's, shame we don't really have the numbers to make it happen this year.

I think its such a difficult balance for the Mods as a slower can can be an advantage at some circuits and the quality of driving from the really fast guys at UKGPL means they can win in almost anything to a degree, but still, thats my thoughts. As long as we're not too hard on the Mods who are trying to do a difficult job and keep everyone happy. Full respect from me.

Of course I take this personally! I am atm in the situation "to slow down others"!
If not, give real facts! I still remember some earlier posts!

I hate being handicapped too, so I try to do my best when I have to handicap someone.
I was handicapped in my first 65s season (S21) with a Cooper at Monza, just compare this to your Mexico handicap!

Handicapping becomes an issue, when it's not done well.  The ultimate handicapping system, would be to slow everyone except last place.  A lot more pre-race work involved for Moderators, and 18 abreast across the finish line, might increase the incident report workload.  But there'd be some great racing, and many complaints of injustice. ;D

The 67's token system gives midfield racers, an opportunity to get a glimpse of championship hopefuls.  It allows more strategy, and more variety, than being forced into the fastest cars, to mount a serious challenge.  

Applying tokens to create a handicap for 65's, would be easily understood, harder to debate,  and add no extra Moderation work to operate.  Chassis would need to be accurately consigned, for this to fully work.

The earlier posts were about your moderator's functions, not your ability as a driver. I've seen you be very competitive in GTs, which means you can be quick if you get the hang of it. I wasn't really referring to you because I haven't seen you demand a handicap system and as you just said, you prefer no handicap. Having been yourself handicapped, you should know it's just not fair at times, especially on some tracks and especially when the competition you have is very close with regard to raw pace, not counting chassis.

The point was, as Clutch just explained in more detail, there is much less satisfaction and much less value in beating someone quicker than you, simply because they were handicapped. I never expected handicaps for those quicker than me in my earlier years, it didin't even occur as a thought, because it seems disrespectful to them, to those who have worked hard to get to that level and to maintain that level. If someone wants wins and points gifted due to handicap, then how can I respect such a person? Why should someone lose a position to someone else not based on ability, but on chassis alone? I was OK with it for years, I struggled in the BT7 and produced some of my best qualifyings and races ever (even a win at Monza!), I don't even think I can come close to that now due to some outside circumstances, but there comes a point where you just get fed up by it because nothing ever changes and people just label you as "the BT7 driver" and don't even bother to improve anymore. Last season in F2s I was stuck for most part in the much slower Ferrari car, and even though I managed victories, they were not because I was fastest, but because others made mistakes. There was little comfort and satisfaction in winning like that. Normally I would have finished 4th, 5th or lower.

I was very pleasantly surprised by Clutch in this Rouen race, and in fact I wonder what would have been had I been in the BT11 as well. That's a great example of how someone can actually improve and bring pleasure to both himself and his opposition. It's what true racing is for me, pushing ourselves to the limit in (almost) equal machinery.

sorry but i don't quite follow your logic here , applying a token system would not be a handicap system . doing so would hopefully give you mixed grids and stop people just taking the fastest car all the time , but everybody would be treated the same .

I meant by that, applying a token system with an added restriction for front runners, which you have already responded to further up the page.  I'm suggesting a seamless homogenous conglomeration - and "I'm wearin' me dictionary out 'ere!" :D

i know when you homogenize milk you lose the cream off the top ...

what you are talking about is a token based system plus added handicapping for faster drivers , if you are going to do that why not just handicap the drivers and be done with it ?

 

Also explained that last question on the previous page, John.  As-to the question of, "Do we handicap?"  I think it helps keep more drivers interested - and adds motivation for the afflicted few.  It's only a big problem when it's not done well.  As we've about 50 other voices here, I'll now attempt to leave the stage gracefully. 8)

That all? You getting chilly, yet?  ;)

Yes, it is strange, (or intersting ) how the handicap idea allways seems to find a way back some how.

Token is fine, or should I say, a very good system to get both strategy and different cars on the grid into the mix.

Göran

Not forgetting that just like the cream , scum floats on top too , but sadly not in the case of GPL .

From my personal point of view having handicaps or not wouldn't make any differnce at all ,If its such a big thing for some , why dont we run a none handicap free for all div.

I think most of this stuff cropped up when we lost the Int's division which seemed to work reasonably well for most of us .

There's always going to be mumblings when faster drivers join a slower div ( D Logan for e.g.  ) so some form of handicapping in the lower divs would make sense from that point of view of keeping skill levels within the lower divisions sensible

But at the top level Pro's should be just that with no handicap to limit driving performance , let the fastest driver win , not the fastest driver with least handicap, and if you dont like the heat stay away from the kitchen  .

Moderation published

Thanks for your "Easy-work", Axel.