SimRacing.org.uk

UKGPL Season 24 Graduates Trophy for Privateers
Race 7 Kyalami

Down to South Africa and Kyalami. Classic track, long time home of formula 1 in the Southern hemisphere.

The original, sweeping circuit was in use from 1961 until political sanctions eliminated the Grand Prix after the 1985 race. A very quick circuit, it yielded some memorable races. Gilles Villeneuve outfoxed team mate and home driver Jody Scheckter in a wet/dry race in 1979, and Alain Prost raced from the back to win in 1982. By the time the circuit held its last Grand Prix in its original incarnation cars were lapping the track in 1m 02s – 20 seconds faster than in 1967, a lap time in the 1m 02s might not quite be obtainable.

We will run Intermediate Damage with the allowance of ONE shift-R reset. No Shift-Rs are allowed in practice unless authorized by the moderator. A Shift-R (fault or not) MUST be followed by a Stop & Go. A Shift-R for tyres/fuel is not allowed. Any driver taking more then ONE Shift-R OR failing to take a Stop & Go will be disqualified from the race result.

Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL_T7_2
IP address = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 07-04-2013
Race Time = race starts at 21:30 UK time
Qualifying Time = Between 30 and 60 minutes, starting no later than 21:00 UK time
Track = Kyalami (Papy)
Variant = 67F1
Damage Model = INT
Race length = 50 minutes (laps 34)
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

Replays Available here (http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/inc_replaysS24_js.aspx)

Driver lists and token rules can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=388&theme=6)

The track can be downloaded from the link in the race list above.


The full time drivers can start to practice as soon as the server is available.  Reserve drivers can also join as soon as the server becomes available but must leave the server with 35 minutes of qualifying left, for a total of 5 minutes; this will allow any remaining full timers to join.  If there is enough space on the grid, the reserve drivers will be able to rejoin when there are 30 mins of qualifying left. 

Moderating The red zone will be fully moderated for lap 1 only. For this event the red zone will be the full lap. Other moderation will be on reported incidents only.  However any incidents that occur in the red zone that are not reported by the drivers will be reported by the moderator.  This will allow all affected drivers the opportunity to present their case before the incident is moderated.  This should ensure there are no surprises when the moderator's report is published and hence appeals will be less likely.  If you haven't received a PM about an incident before the link below the results table is removed, you can be sure that you will not appear in the moderator's report.

The chassis token system is explained on the Privateers (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=388&theme=6) standings page. Please ensure you choose a chassis that is within your budget, which can be seen by hovering the mouse over your points total in the standings.

Please restrict chat to pit messages including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

don't forget you need the pitwall , If you have installed a GFX update that removes the pitwall here is how to get it back for the race;

1. Rename or remove kyalami.trk and kyalami.3do files from your kyalami folder.
That will give you back a wall you can crash your car into , if you want the old papy Armco GFX back for the wall do this;
2. Rename or remove Armco_s.mip

T7 server is set for 34 laps Long race and listening on Igor in Consolle session.
Ciao

Martin 2 incidents in few laps,you are not a friend! ;D
The third was the final disaster but was not your guilt.

/edit mode

I am a prat and should not post without first researching my facts!

/end edit mode

Pretty good run for me (esp. after blowing up 3 engines practicing for it, and going for longer gears to try to look after it, which just killed my drive on the straight). Others in front obligingly fell away and left me alone to claim the top spot.

One thing that does bear RE-mentioning: during qualifying, DO NOT DRIVE STRAIGHT DOWN THE PITLANE (looking at you, Mike Turner >:(). There is a traffic lane, USE IT. Otherwise, when someone else hits their green button (in this case, an innocent Florian), and they spawn right in front of you, then someone gets punted right out into traffic only to land in the path of someone approaching at 180 mph, upsetting their qualifying run (I'd been doing a fuel consumption check, but damage from the incident ruined that; I ended up having to take much more fuel than necessary out of caution). As it did not affect the outcome, I'll not report it this time.

Francesco!  I buy you some Spumante and we are friends again.  1st time the corner was ahead and you were behind.  2nd time you hit the curb, and I wait for you off the racing line.  Let's be friends -  I do not tell Moderators if you also do not? ;D

And Jason, let's get together sometime.  My client replay doesn't show you as existing in time and space, at my place in the race.  We must've remained many positions apart.  I suggest it was some other filthy swine! >:D

/edit mode

  :-[

/end edit mode

Darn it - the plan was that you would be doing 185mph when this fiendish plot was hatched.
I won't disagree with the advice given but if you look at the replay from the Pit Lane you'll see that a large number of drivers did what I did (i.e drove down the pit lane and gradually moved over to the traffic lane) so if you're planning on reporting infringements you're going to be pretty busy as well as wasting your time since qualifying isn't moderated.

Is that correct?

If it was surely D Logan would be out for blowing 3 engines  :D

It appears it is the same case for me !?
 During 24 laps it was a pleasant race, near behind Phil Girard. At this time Mr Shunt decided to attack.
 Clearly faster than me i didn't want to fight in the T1 braking zone. But Mr Shunt hit me in the straight line ..2nd  time in Two races (100% achievement) . So shift R ' for the both drivers.
One lap to go to the pit. Braking too late i lost the entry. but it was  not enough. Mr Shunt hit me one more time ; it seems it was decided by the driver who changed of line to come on me .... result : 2 hits in 1 lap (200% achievement).
My car , nevertheless keeps all its 4 wheels and i can continue.
But in this dangerous straight line , Florian G. is arriving and it is a new hard contact. I think he didn't see me and cause the differential of speed it was a fatal shock. Sorry for you second place lost by that . Complaints: see with Maddog.    

Note to Tintin :  When someone is following you closely and you decide on a brake test, it can turn into a break-fest.  I hope Ukgpl rules are equipped, to adequately address this kind of unfriendly behaviour. :-\

A bit out of topic, but it caught my eye - how come there are Works material drivers sandbagging here in Privateers? Drivers who in other divisions such as Pros or Lights are right there in the fight for top 5...

Not really estonished by your humour sense.
No brake test Maddog  ::) i only slightly stop to accelerate at maxi speed (maintained only at about 270 km/h since several seconds) in order to facilitate the overtaking and avoid any risk at the brake zone. I recognize it was a bad idea, seen the consequences.  
And what is the reason of the other hit ?

Glad we are Ok on the first hit.  I do come closer than some drivers when racing, so this makes a bigger problem when there is a surprise.

Second hit was because I followed you to the pit entrance.  You are my guide.  I am faster because you show me where the entrance is.  But you are suddenly very slow, and in the wrong place! :o  My race is ended, but I give your car new life - it's not a very happy life . . . .  sorry!

So I was not angry - I was confused.  You decide if we make work for the Moderators.

Keep in mind, Tintin, that Maddog has friends among moderators...  ;D

Rather eventful race for me, not in too good way... After so-so decent qualifying time it seemed that I could take the first place if I build a nice gap to second... but Cookie passed me at turn 1, lap 1, and there was no way to take the position back...he used the tactic of being fast as alien at the places where there were passing opportunities and slow as snail on the other places. In result, soon Dean catched us, and I started doing stupid things... First i almost rearended cookie at the hairpin, and Dean passed... then i tried to go deeper into last turn to get a faster exit at the straight, and span...already fifth, i tried to catch up, setting my fastest laptime... then I made an awful pass in turn 1, span and crashed into the guy i tried to pass... then the car was damaged, and I considered quitting, but pushed on. Suprisingly, on the next lap, on turn one again, I found Cookie and Florian having a nice tangle.  I found myself back in second with Dean miles ahead and Cookie and Florian farther and farther behind despite my damaged car. And so it ended... Sorry about that awful pass, I think it might have been Bernie that was involved.

'The most important thing in the Olympic Games is not winning but taking part'  Pierre De Coubertin whereas for some in GPL it is not the taking part but the winning. Hence the arrogant and aggressive attitude that we sometimes see demonstrated towards drivers of lesser ability.

Well, I'm just surprised some of the drivers here were even allowed to take part by the moderators, as they should know very well their level of ability. I thought divisions are not exactly without limits as to who may enter which division. As for winning and participation, I think both matter, but we're not the Olympics and that's why for fairness sake we have divisions for different levels of ability. Anyway, it's in my control, luckily for some.  ;D

As I feel that this comment refers to me as well, I will explain it. At the start of the season I talked to my father about which league to join. He said because its the first season, lets start privateers, if it all works out fine we can still move up next season. And I said ok thats fine with me. Btw. I hadn´t touched the original 67 cars for years and this is no exaggeration. I mainly drove 65 and 69. I dont feel like it was a bad decision since the competition is good with drivers like Dean, Cookie, and Sky. Ofc not mentioning my father. He is plain bad. :P
 

I am sorry for that TinTin. I checked Pribluda at the straight much longer than it was good for me. Didnt see anyone at the beginning of the straight and it took me totally by surprise. After an incident with Billy I totally f... up my race, couldnt get back into concentration and made not so many mistakes afterwards its not funny.

Florian, if it was just you, since it's your first season, it would be fine. The problem (as I see it) though is that currently at least some 4-5 drivers who are Works material are racing here and robbing the chance of slower drivers (whom the division is meant to be for) to fight for victory. You can clearly see the gap in lap times. I don't know whether this is how the divisions should operate right now or not, but it wasn't like this in the past, just saying.

I think I am another driver you are referring to...

I am driving privateers as I am a real novice in 67s! I did never race them before last season, where I joined some events on tracks I liked.
So this is my first full 67 season!
If you look at the time differences to real works drivers e.g. for Kya -> 2-3 sec! I am still learning how to setup and drive a 67 F1.

Maybe we need an Intermediate grid for 67s too!?

To my race...

Yes Sky, I was a snail in the twisty parts as my front tires were cooking with ~150° after 9 laps, so I had to be extra carefull  :-[
I had 2 spins due to this and was lucky to gain 3rd.

aha - so anyone who qualified at Kyalami within say (picking a number from the air)  1.185 seconds of the pole time should be potentially dropped into the shark-fest of works?
Sounds good to me!

Just kidding chaps  :)

I believe we need 3 grids for all divisions without handicap (or even with), yeah.

Yep. I said the same thing in the mid-season review. The top runners in Privateers are regularly fighting with me (and regularly beating me too) in mixed ability grids in other divisions, yet race in the second tier of 67's  ??? It doesn't make any sense to me & I'm afraid I don't buy this notion that it's an unfamiliar mod - in my experience quick drivers remain quick no matter what mod they race. This is borne out when you compare times between Privateers & Works; at most of the races this season the top Privateers guys are going quicker than me & the majority of other Works runners in qually times, race laptimes & average race lap...

I don't think comparing headline times between the 2 divisions is all that relevant either - H, John Bradbury & Art can post some stunning times but if being slower than them is the yardstick for dropping down a division then Privateers will need a grid of 40 cars! That would be the problem for an intermediate grid - to my mind it's just a way to avoid the few super-quick drivers we have.         

Well, when the season started I was 50 times slower than I am now, mostly because I was in the process of changing my controller every 2 hours.... And you might notice I'm still doing terrible in all championships. Btw, half of the works drivers can beat my kyalami qualifuyng time by 2 or 3 seconds, and drive consistently at that speed at that... I will still move up next season, and hopefully till then I will be fast enough to not be last...

Hmm not sure about that Sky - OK it was a couple of seasons since Works last raced at Kyalami but your time would still have put you 2nd (behind H)... https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9583#event2709 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9583#event2709).

But I wasn't really including you in my comment really - you already tried to compete in Works for a season & struggled a little to find consistency, so I could see the logic in why you would go to Privateers. Especially while having controller issues.   

We all have really good excuses, don't we?  ;D

Veterans will recall that until a few years ago there were indeed 3 grids for the 67s which worked very well.. Sadly the numbers participating fell away and it was decided to reduce the grids to two to ensure a reasonable turnout on each grid.
At present numbers are probably still only sufficient to support two grids but if more drivers could be recruited........well maybe.

If we have to run 2 grids, then there should be stricter monitoring of who races where. I remember years ago when I was even banned from D1 2 races into the season because I won them in BRM. Compared to now it was just much stricter and that's why you see some genuine Privateer champions in the past season statistics, instead of fast drivers dropping down and having it easy. While speed and race craft/consistency is not the same thing, the grid separation should be based on potential rather than current overall ability, otherwise some hotlappers who tend to crash out in races would be allowed to race amongst slower drivers, which seems just wrong.

Of course drivers who improve rapidly during a season is fine. People who are still developing and who were slower at the start and then gain an advantage through improvement should be allowed to win the championship as they deserve.

Yet for someone else, also in their first season at UKGPL, and their very first season ever using the 67 cars online, not so much? Should the fact that there seem to be four or five of us at the same time change the standard?


From the league page: "The Privateers Trophy is intended to provide an introduction to the original 1967 car set with the more accomplished drivers joining the complementary Works division..."

I don't see anything about "slow" in there. I read it as "less experienced in the 67 cars", and I fit that bill to a "T".

How is someone supposed to be an "accomplished" driver before having a chance to accomplish anything?


You sure can, but only after the fact.


So there's never before been a rookie in Privateers who showed themself to be markedly quicker than the average Priv driver, and was quickly promoted at the end of the season? I find that difficult to believe.

When I joined, I looked at the competition in both leagues, saw Cookie, Andreas, Florian and Sky in Privateers, and figured I'd get some good racing in here (with less pressure than the Works series), and I have. Next season, I expect at least two of them to join me in moving to Works, where chances of being up at the sharp end will be slim, indeed. I only hope I can keep some of the consistency (that I've been working hard at) while gaining a whole lot of speed from somewhere.

:wheelchair:

If you are confused i accept to believe the incident is closed too for me.
And please don't believe (do not think , do not write ) I had have a "unfriendly behavior" . It was just the contrary.
CU with pleasure :thumbup1:

Dean, you and your nonsense again. Not all of those who are Works material are in their first 67s season here, and even less so their first UKGPL season. It's one thing for a newcomer who's unknown to the league, and quite another when you know very well what someone is capable of after racing with them for a few years. In the past you would not see non-UKGPL rookies who are quick being allowed to the lower divisions, and the championship stats are for everyone to see. You can also compare lap time differences and see that this and probably last season, we've had almost equal lap times at the top between Works and Privateers. Privateers is not meant for rookies, it's meant for slower people, otherwise it would be a rather empty division every season.

Nice to know that any concerns I may have can be considered seriously and not constantly dismissed as "nonsense" (just not by _you_ apparently). :finger:


How would anyone know what I'm capable of in a 67 car, having NEVER RACED THEM IN A LEAGUE BEFORE I ARRIVED HERE?? (sorry for caps, but that point seems to not be penetrating Hristo's consciousness)

Likewise, I HAVE raced 65s, 69s, GTs, and the F2s in leagues prior to arriving here, and looking at the times from previous races, found that the best place for me was in the faster divisions, even though my chances of victory in those was (aside from the mixed GT/CanAm series where the local hotshoes are not to be found) somewhere between slim and none.


I only checked this season (at the common tracks) and polesitter in Privs would have been 7th (by 1.3s), 7th (by 2.3s), 3rd (by 1.4s) and 4th (by 1.5s) on the Works grid, hardly "almost equal".


League page says less "accomplished", and again, how is someone supposed to show that they are "accomplished" without a chance to "accomplish" anything?  ::)

What he said. I've been a member here for quite a few years now (missed a few seasons when I had no PC) and also rarely drive anything EXCEPT the 67 cars. So I am in no way a rookie. However, I'm so slow that it's still embarrassing every single week. Therefore, while I yearn for a few more challenging tracks, I cannot possibly consider asking to participate in a different division.

If people can post times which would be competitive in Works, and able not to spin off a lot, I was under the impression they get "encouraged" to move up.

If 3rd and 4th in Works is not competitive, then I don't know what is...

This is not my attempt to make someone feel bad for driving here. Obviously the moderators have allowed it, so it's legal. I'm just questioning the deciding factor when someone is put in Privateers instead of in Works, apart from filling in the numbers. As Al pointed out, you can't just excuse yourself by saying it's the first time you race the cars. With that kind of logic I may demand that I'm put in a lower division for a new mod (say Can Am, because I never raced it). How's that sound to you?

What I meant with Florian is, it's fine if a new driver to the league debuts in a division he's never raced before, because neither he would know the level of competition, nor would the mods know the newcomer's ability. If he happens to dominate the division right from the get go, then there's still time for moving him up. If he happens to improve over the course of a season and then begins to dominate, then I see no problem - the guy deserves to win it.

As was discussed before, it would be nice to test newcomers so they can be assessed and put in the correct divisions, but for people who have been racing here for years, I just don't see any excuse being viable. Sure, some people may become slower over time, past their peak, etc., but the difference to the past is never that great and the potential of top performance is always present.

You dont have to have raced 67's on line to know how good you are , or any other mod for that matter , there's plenty of benchmarks to compare times .

If completely ignoring the 7th and 7th also mentioned in my post is not willfully blind, then I don't know what is.  ::)

You didn't say "competitive", either, you said "almost equal".


There was some self-assessment involved, the mods allowed it, I'm having fun racing against others close to my abilities (Cookie and Flo are, too, I believe), and I've already stated my willingness to be promoted to Works for next season.


I'd actually be fine with it. I also expect you'd get bored very quickly, as there would probably be no one near your level, and would insist on moving at the end of the season, if not sooner.


If I was dominating the Privs from the get-go, I'd have already moved.


I haven't been, so your point is invalid.

Just curious. Why are you so eager to bring "justice" into a league you arent racing in at all and thus have no business with, Hristo?

And why shouldn't I ignore them? You don't judge a potential by the worse results. Almost equal to most drivers in a division, not to the fastest. The top divisions have no upper cap, unlike the lower ones.


I don't see why you take all of this personally? Do you feel targeted by my post? Do you feel you're not in the right division? If so then why are you justifying your presence in this division by saying you enjoy racing with others who are potentially Works material as well? It only reinforces my point that this currently robs the actual drivers who are suitable for this division from competing for the top spots.



If I follow your logic, I would be fine with it if others of my ability join me and we race together, even if we're not meant for that division.  ;)


That's not what I said, at all. I said if someone happens to dominate from the start, then he should be moved. If a group of people dominate, it's more complicated. That's why it should be decided carefully before the season start. If someone begins to dominate as the season unfolds, as a sign of improvement, then so be it. Likewise if a group of people improve relative to each other, but that's very unlikely to happen.


You've raced 3 years ago, I remember you very well (your name is memorable  ;D ). I don't know whether you raced elsewhere since then or not, but don't pretend as if you're new to GPL.  :o


Do you prefer that we keep our eyes closed to such things, Florian? I just know that some people here are unhappy with how the supposedly "their" division has turned into a sort-of a copy of Works and they're racing for the minor points all the time. Don't take it so personally. If you feel you have every right to race here, then that's fine. I'm just raising the point because it has caught my attention when I look at the results after each race.

Who is we? Can´t these unhappy drivers speak for themselves? If you attack Dean, then this accusations indirectly are pointed to me as well, because you don´t seem to pay attention to his arguments. Everything you say about him can then be said about me as well. So I apologize to everyone whose racing experience I might have destroyed this season by recklessly joining the wrong division. I will handycap myself now for the last races, so others can win. [/irony]

See, that's what is working against having a normal discussion every time - people overreacting and acting like you stepped on their toes. When exactly did I attack Dean? Perhaps you will notice it was his attempt to reply to me in a sarcastic manner which led to the exchange between us that followed? I was only speaking generally, yet people started taking it personally. Doesn't this prove those same people feel that maybe there is truth in what I say and that this is not the right division for them? If not, why act so insecure and argue?

You speak of accusations, I say it's just a point of view. You don't have to agree with it, but if you can't come up with common sense reasoning to argue against it, why do we have to go down to a personal level and try to insult each other, or to act butthurt? Give me solid reasons for the top group of drivers that I can't deny and I'll admit I was wrong, but so far I haven't seen any of that. All I see is people pretending they're rookies when they're not, pretending they're slower than they actually are and people who insist this division is not meant for slower drivers.

Whether you handicap yourself or not is totally up to you, nobody is asking for that, nor am I saying everyone should suddenly move to Works. It's too late to do changes so far into the season. The discussion is a look into how things should be done in the future, whereas you and the group you're racing regularly at the top serves only as an example...

You're right, we shouldn't feel slighted in the least when people start using words like "nonsense", "insecure" and "butthurt".


Or you're refusing to see their points of view.


I never said that. I mentioned that the league pages state that this league is for those who had not proven themselves yet, and I included myself in that group with facts that I believe justified that conclusion.


Then the appropriate place for it would be in a "season review" thread (I'm assuming such a thing will exist at a suitable time). Otherwise, you're just shit disturbing, which I've been led to believe is inappropriate conduct on these forums.

This was already after your attempt for sarcasm and taking it personally.  ;)


I saw them and discussed them and they come up as an excuse rather than a point of view.


Proven themselves in comparison to what or who? What is the benchmark in your opinion? How do you expect someone like James Andrew or Michael Turner (whose posts you choose not to comment, but only focus on mine) to prove themselves when you and the group at the top are out of their current skills level?


Please, if I have to rely on those "review" threads, nothing ever gets done. Those reivew threads contain topics that have been continuously raised within race threads, for the lack of separate open forum where drivers can post. If it's not for these actual discussions as things occur at each race, issues just tend to be forgotten and put behind, people tend to keep quiet, we get to hear hollow promises for some changes and then we get another season of the same thing and have to go through the same thing again, like a broken lantern.

If you want to call it shit disturbing, do so, that's what it is from a certain point of view, but I saw it as necessary and since this is a free forum, I see no reason why I shouldn't point things out the way I see them. It's neither spam nor out of topic, it's right where it belongs, where people can compare actual facts and not generalize. Now why don't stop focusing on my opinion only and look at how things stand overall for everyone in this division? Remember, I don't race here, I'm not the one who benefits by arguing about these issues. In fact I'm indirectly asking for more competition in Works, for the sake of enjoyment and fairness.

 Can you both tell me what you are "ärguing" about actually? It seems to me you're hammering down points with which everyone agrees and you question behaviour that doesn't really exist and opinions that aren't actually spoken. Yes, some people will move up a division next season, yes, there is an unfortunate chain of events that caused faster drivers to go into lower division, yes, that is not fair, yes, no one is to blame, yes, no one can do anything about it, yes, moderators are guilty for everything, yes, my spelling sucks.

In the end you will fill 3 pages with quotes and counter-quotes, and after that a mod will come and tell you to shut up. 

 :rockon:

First of all, this is my last post on this discussion, then I am out of it, because it leads to anything.
 
Right after his explanation why he is in privateers. You started your post directly pointed at him, with "You and your nonsense [fat]again[/fat] Dean" You are attacking him there at two different levels. The first level is telling him that his current post is utter bullsh... and the second level is that all of his posts are utter bullsh... For me the whole discussion would have ended there, if I was him.

No, it doesn´t. It proves that it annoys people and that´s it. That it is insecure is only your point of view. Why argue? Because we have to! Who is we? The top drivers in privateers. We have to defend ourselves for our choice of division [fat] this season [/fat]. Don´t worry, I guess noone of us will be in this division next season. I sure won´t.

I did! I explained myself. Dean, Cookie and Sky explained themselves as well. It is not our fault if you simply dismiss our explanations. Can´t you see or don´t you wanna see it?
I can see nothing constructive in this discussion. What do you wanna do in the future? Every new driver has to do some test laps and based on his performance "the jury" decides in which division he has to drive? People should still be allowed to pick the division they want to drive in. Freedom of choice... None of us top privateers picked this division because we thought "Oh yeah, I am so freakin fast, but I dont like competition, so I will join the privateers and dominate it and win every race. Yeah, that seems a good decision to me."

And you didn´t answer when I asked who is we, when you say "What do you want us to do, we can´t just look at the situation without doing anything". So it means the whole staff is unhappy about the situation in privateers this season or what? Or who are the unhappy drivers? I couldn´t notice anything about unhappiness out of Michaels and Andrews posts. I noticed that this vague and generic talk about "some people" happens quite often, without anyone ever knowing whom it refers to. And I still wonder why you are the speaker for those unhappy drivers, since you are neither in privateers, nor a moderator.

Anyway, maybe I could explain my reaction with this post, maybe I couldn´t explain it to you. Feel free to answer to it or not, I won´t reply anymore because I feel it would be a waste of energy.

Ultimately, the Moderators can move drivers between divisions. We 'suggest' to certain people that they might like to move up (or down) but we tend not to force the issue because if a driver is uncomfortable, they won't drive. Bigger grids tend to produce better races BUT if drivers are very unevenly matched we have to act.

In general terms, one season in the wrong division is acceptable but two would require action.

That was a defense to his sarcastic personal comment, not an attack. If you're to point the finger, at least start reading from the beginning.


Oh really? How come it's only annoying to those who are Works material and the opposite of annoying for those who aren't?  ;) You don't have to defend yourselves, because I'm not attacking you. I'm saying you just don't belong in this series, period. You (not you in particular, but the top group) start coming up with lousy excuses that I already quoted, which are not really based on logic and are not really honest either.


Well, don't expect me to just accept nonsense, because I won't. I've yet to see someone apart from Sky admit they are not for this division and just honestly take responsibility. All I hear is attempts to attack me personally or try and change the topic to something else.


There is nothing constructive because instead of sticking to the topic of discussion, you and others begin to overreact emotionally and point the finger at me. I'm not really interested in that. It was actually aimed more towards the moderators and why they have allowed it, rather than the drivers themselves. I'm not accusing drivers and I already said it is within the rules and legal that you're all racing here. It's just that I don't see it as proper.


I don't want you to do anything, I would like the moderators, those who run the league, to think about it and not allow it to repeat in future seasons. The issue here is, we've already had multiple discussions about how drivers should be allocated to each division, and unfortunately, for whatever reason (raising up number of participants?) this season has been neglected in that respect. People have simply been allowed to race wherever they want. This hurts the balance in the lower divisions, obviously.

Again, I just don't see why you have to be offended by all this. It's stating facts, not pointing the finger and assigning blame to drivers... Whether you feel obliged to move up or not, whether you're happy with how things are currently or not, that's up to you, just as it is up to me. Instead of getting in argument me with every time I post something concerning the league, try and direct your opinion to those who are in charge, but don't expect me to silently ignore nonsense and lack of logic, because next time we go the wrong path again, I wouldn't want to be part of the group which allowed it to happen by keeping silent.

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Sorry, Paul, but that's just not true at all. Bigger grids tend to produce more incidents, more traffic, more problems, etc. The racing does not improve just because you increase the numbers, it has never been the case.

If I may fork the conversation, the definition of "better" is subjective. For me, it would mean merely having one or more people to chase or dice with for most of a race, rather than the usual lonely driving I do every week. However, having someone at your level to actually drive against does, indirectly, mean that you will have more incidents.

Purely from a statistical point of view, bigger grids DOES mean that more participants are likely to find someone of their level and therefore someone to make the race interesting. So, in a real sense, bigger grids do allow more people to have better races. Though I understand that those more talented will also find themselves having more unwanted or "silly" issues to deal with on-track.

For the record, I whole-heartedly agree with Hristo in that he merely made a general observation and several people took it personally. To my mind that does belie a hint of guilt. However, I also have no complaint about good drivers having their first season in with the Privateers. As long as they move up next season, as BadBlood said.

Now shut up, all of you! Far too much bitching over recent months...

Yes, but in our situation in the league, bigger grids are almost always achieved by putting drivers of different ability into one place, which in the end does not lead to better racing. You still have 2-3 people to race against, even if there is a grid of 20. The concept of bigger grids here is that we have fewer divisions mixing drivers together, instead of more divisions and separating drivers by ability, which would maintain the amount of racing each driver gets, while getting rid of much of the issues related to handicap, to incidents caused by speed/skill differential, to the time necessary to moderate races, to drivers racing for 10th place instead of 5th or victory, and even issues with server crashes on occasions.

When it comes to grid size, there's a fundamental problem ATM, with requesting smaller ones - we've a limited number of  Moderators ready to take on the responsibility.  Regulations and procedure, make the job a demanding one.  And top quality Servers are already fully allocated.

More drivers in a single race will produce more accidents.  Two separate grids might produce as many, when the 2 figures are combined.  You do get more cars involved in crashes from a larger grid, but this shouldn't increase the Moderating workload a lot, as most 'arrivals', are classed as non-participants in a racing incident.   And from a spectators viewpoint, larger grids are much more exciting . . . . for those who only want to watch.  :laugh:  Real world racing generally has 12 - 24ish cars racing together.

There are some valid points for running smaller grids - Server quality being one.  I prefer racing on a busy track, and without additional staff, that's likely to continue. 

The only valid reason for small grids would be to shut Hristo up,although I'm sure it would be only a temporary reprieve from the master of the quote button....

 :lol:

Gentlemen - "Beware!"   I've heard rumour there's a 'Taz' emoticon lurking somewhere, if disagreement's get entirely out of hand.  It's a long forgotten weapon, and not a pleasant sight.

That would be Dean. And for someone given a moderator status, you sure are more interested in making sarcastic remarks rather than add anything to the discussion.  ::)

Look, I can use it too!!   

BTW, i was trying to be lighthearted.... clearly it didn't come across that way.

Anyone can and should use it when necessary, otherwise you don't know who's replying to who. As for lighthearted, what makes you think it was heavyhearted before that? It wasn't, at least on my part. I don't understand why we can't have whatever discussion like grown up people without letting emotions interfere and take things so personally every time... It obviously leads nowhere.

When I said that bigger grids tend to produce better races I did not mean to imply that the quality of the driving is better. It is just that all drivers can usually find a battle in the bigger field. Often in small fields (<6-7 say) the field gets very strung out and you have 6 guys doing qualifying...

A mix of abilities isn't necessarily a bad thing but in general terms the faster drivers do need to step up...

The grids should be based on ability, not on numbers. If you have 6 drivers of similar pace, you'll get a much better race than a field of 15+, but of varying pace. What you need is not just numbers, but more drivers of similar ability for each division. Mixing up whoever just to increase the number of participants doesn't really solve anything and only leads to more trouble. We're not endurance racing Le Mans style, we're sprint racing (even the sports cars division).

Take this race for example. Though I haven't watched it, simply judging by the lap times, I can see at least 2 separate group of drivers who would have (excluding bad luck or mistakes) a very close battle. If those grids were separated, both of those battles would be for victory, which is a much bigger motivation than racing for 5th or 10th. In addition, there won't be traffic that can ruin someone's race and thus ruin a battle between the drivers. Sure, traffic may be part of real life racing, but it is mostly due to inferior machinery rather than lack of skill that you see backmarkers (i.e. F1). In lower single-seater series, there are rarely backmarkers because everyone is on similar level, racing similar or identical cars.

Yes, some good thinking there Hristo.  The solution would be more drivers, who in turn create more enthusiasts, who then evolve into more Moderators, who allocate more racers, who fill more grids, which allows closer racing for those of more similar ability, and a happy future for all who enjoy GPL.  To bring this about we need good Moderation, good application of fair and just rules, a constant online presence, and stimulating Website characters ,who fight pleasantly and without malice, for what they believe is right.  Carry on chaps.  :D

I am all with you about drivers of similar pace which is why we talked about promotion/relegation but drivers only sign up for the season so that becomes difficult to enforce/encourage.

Difficult? I don't really think so. Just a glance at the drivers list before the start of each season and you can spot any potential misplacement. As for encouragement, I don't recall seeing anyone being told "you should drive in this division, please sign up for a different one". Does it happen via PM?

Yes Hristo, it happens via PM. I have been "encouraged" myself on  occasions.

This is my favourite quote of the year...


Yes, as Jason says it happens via PM. That allows drivers to be very candid. Jonny O moved series in the 65's (thanks Jonny!) this season.

Nobody has complained to me privately about the speed of the leaders in the Privateers and there is so much to do at the start of the season that rating the drivers is really difficult. We will 'encourage' the faster drivers to consider moving up but I don't much like the idea of 'forcing people' to move up. If there was a total disparity we do ask people to move and sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. We normally let it ride for one season and then take a tougher line but it gets hard when people are unknown and you never know who is going to turn up. It is a balancing act and I know that we get it wrong sometimes.

I'll be completely honest - you're being way too soft with managing the league in that respect and it's obvious many people aren't happy. I don't see why you have to wait for someone to complain to you about it in private before you realize that. Encouraging people doesn't work with everyone. Some people would just drop down a division where they can easily win rather than try and improve on their 5th or 6th place in the upper division. Whether you run 2 or 3 divisions for each series, you should not allow people to join whichever division they want so freely. It simply ruins the concept of having different ability-based divisions in the first place.

Mod published