SimRacing.org.uk

UKGPL Season 24 Extra Trophy (69X)
Race 7 Daytona

Welcome to the seventh round of the Extra Trophy for 69 Extra chassis. Daytona. 1967 road course. Looks easy, mostly is. Daytona is a circuit that would seem to favour the more powerful cars with that loooong straight section, but surprisingly the more agile cars can make up a load of time through the twisty infield section. Plenty of drafting available!

The first lap will be fully moderated within the red zone. The red zone will extend to the whole of the first lap.

Please check the Season 24 pages for details (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=386&theme=6) regarding rules and the Extra Trophy (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=395&theme=6) pages in particular.

It is very important that drivers are FULLY familiar with the rules relating to Shift-R. ONLY ONE IS ALLOWED and a Shift-R MUST be followed by a Stop-and-Go or the driver will be excluded.

If two servers are required they will be as below but if only one grid is required, we will race on T7.

Race list	iGOR
LIGHT Server	UKGPL_T7_2
IP address	62.149.202.168
HEAVY Server	UKGPL3
IP address	ping ukgpl3.dyndns.org
Date	03-05-2013
Race time	Race starts at 21:30 UK time
Qualifying time	Between 30 and 60 minutes, starting no later than 21:00 UK time
Track	Daytona Speedway (dayto24h) (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=6051)
Mod	69X
Damage model	INT
Race length	27 laps
Replay	Available here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/replays/Archive/Season24/Extra/)

Reserve drivers please note; you must leave the server with 35 minutes of qualifying left, for a total of 10 minutes, to allow full timers to join. FULL TIME DRIVERS GET PRIORITY.

Heavy and Light drivers will drive on separate servers. Please ensure that you know which class you are and that you join the right server

LIGHTS on UKGPL_T7_2; HEAVY on UKGPL3

The Light and Heavy Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R;group=395&theme=6)

Password: see above (#post_event_password)

T7 server is set for 27 laps Long race and listening on Igor in Consolle session.
Ciao

Hmmm ! track doesn't want to download for some reason  ???

Got it ! ta for all your help  ;D

BLAST! Got home at 9:35 - hope it was fun...

incident at the start with Johnny.I don't know why Johnny was immobilized at the green flag.
The mod can judge,i don't send incident report.

All in all pleased with 6 th concidering I should have smashed my car on lap one but was lucky. I thought there was one more straight :eek: :hang: :jumpjoy: woooheeee bam bam, Still hole. Then later I was behind ronnnie and AA and I found myself on AA s tail after the speedsection. I braked earlier than usual but AA really braked early. looked some rpy laps and he did brake early a lot there , but this time was even earlier than usual. Maybe missed brakepoint while checking mirrors I don t know but I had to throw the car out not to hit . After that I never really regained full contact and finished 6 th. Gz winner (atm I forgot who)

Well, my turn to apologize for the usual L1 carnage, I made the classic mistake to put a wheel off the bank, which made me spin as per the textbook    :( Apologies to the guys involved in the accident, they were all very successful in avoiding me, not so much in avoiding each other, sorry chaps, it was a genuine mistake.

Apart from that, not my greatest showing, but I had company all the way through thanks to Ronnie. Quite fun I have to say, as, although the track must be the ugliest I have driven in GPL, passing safely requires to gauge the timing well, since the bankings are not that easy to go round side by side. Pity I obliged twice after completing the pass through rather clumsy mistakes, especially considering I had so little wing Ronnie couldn't keep up on the straights even sitting in my tow  ;D. It was good racing though, grats for pulling it off RP. Also grats to Clive and podium.

@Tom, I saw that mate, I think if you check some more laps you will see I was braking a lot earlier when following closely another car, as I didn't really know how much quicker I was getting there because of the tow. Admittedly, it was invariably too early, but it is so easy to fly off the road in that corner...sorry it caught you out.

Yes I checked and your right you did brake very early other times when behind Ronnie and thats a good thing. I am an early braker but with my 8 12 wings (I suspect you had half of that or at least less rearwing) and some numbers from wizzard John Roberts I got a very stable car. I noticed your car was more a handful to handle than mine. I had similar problems when trying out low wing settings but tuned them up much  because of that exit from the speedsection. I was afraid I would be smashed from behind with too little wings that required earlier careful braking.Ironic that my nice stable car became my reason for going out in that specific turn. different wingsettings is a faxctor to be reconed with in the "wingraces" and I don t hold it against you. but right there and then I felt WTH that was early!
Anyway nice that you still are around I thought you were leaving. Cya next race.
EDIT: Why didn t you wait with attacking Ronnie until just before finish?;)  I have some experience fom oval races in indycar during the ninetees ...

 Bravo Phill!!!!!  :clap:

my second victory on a fast track, like Monza.
I like the mod 69, especially on speed tracks.
I go on pole, and I'm head all the time, this is the first time for me.
Dave was very dangerous, he put pressure on me, but I have resisted.
It was intense from start to finish.

Jonny, what's happened to you ???

thank you to the organizers and congratulations to all
go to Bridgehampton (this is a "slow track" ...) so the victory will not be for me, lol

Yeah thanks AA, that could have been a lonely race otherwise. I thought it was hilarious the way I would get in your slipstream and proceed to go almost backwards :laugh: :laugh:. I was just grateful I had a a ton of wing to give me a decent car under braking which kept it interesting. Good fun.

Grats again to Clive, Tristan and Axel. See you all at the next round.

@ Tom, yes I guess 10 days were enough to heal my broken heart for not having been able to race at solitude.. ;D That and some of the latest moderating work I suppose..

As for the race...I had 2.75 for both wings..I usually run with a lot of wing, as the laptimes are quicker in that configuration, and the cars way more fun to drive. However, this way I found myself too many times trapped behind people who were dead slow in the bends, desperately early on the brakes, but untouchable on the straights. So, I went full attack for this one, as the laptimes are still good given the endless flatout section and the fact the bends are practically all slow hairpins (my pb on Thursday night was mid 43s, with a lot of time to find). The problem I had was that in order to be quick in the corners I really had to harass the car and keep the revs so high that the engine wouldn't have lasted the race. I am sure it can be done, but it would have needed some more practice. As for Ronnie's pass, he would have never been able to repass me on the straights, as he said, he was losing ground in the tow, which was bizarre to see  ;D. So I just needed to drive home really, I simply went wide at the last corner all by myself, and there was only one lap to go so no time to recover... ::).

Agreed that this mod has a very particular strategic element in it. That's one of the reasons it is so fun, pity races end up in a crashfest so often. Also, I am not really sure why we keep racing cars with wings on tracks that require you to remove them...anyway, see you at the next one. 

The main issue this season, choice of tracks.

Interesting discussion about wings here and the various benefits. I am sat here loafing on Saturday morning...so here are my thoughts about the race and setups.  ;)

For this race I was split between the "obvious" Matra for the speed sections and the sweet handling Brabham. But with just 30 mins to go before qually began, I tried the Mclaren...just for something different I suppose, and found it had possibilities.

Initially I worked on the race setup through qually and although my lap times were respectable with full tanks, I was slipping down the grid. Experience of other races around Daytona has taught me that any incident will usually involve several of the following cars, especially into T1 with the heavy braking zone. So being near the front in the early laps is probably safer if you can be there. I realised that I had to break my normal practice of qualifying on race fuel and go for a true qually run and the best I managed got me up to 5th, but I could not find a convenient tow truck, so it would have to do.

I had 4 matras in front of me on the grid and some pretty quick drivers in each of them!! It was vital that I stayed with them in the early laps and took advantage of that lovely slipstream ;)
I had gone for a compromise setup for the Mclaren with 5.5F and 8.5R wing settings and a high 5th gear to protect the engine in the slipstream. This gave me some very predictable handling around the infield and  respectable speed on the banking. I was unsure if I had actually used too much wing because I had not been able to really test my top speed in the slipstream behind a fast Matra in qually. So the first laps would show me if I was wise or foolish ::).
The start was OK and I held the inside line around the all important T1, sweating about being collected by someone from behind. The infield section gave me confidence as I easily stayed with the Matras through the twisty bits and we exited on to the banking for the first time. Although I lost a little ground ( I was too far back to get the full tow) I closed up easily under braking at T1.............. ;)That was a huge relief!!

Lap 2 ( I think) and two cars tangled (Ronnie and AA?) on the banking. As they discovered the lack of stability with low wing settings. Incidentally I found that raising the ride height slightly stopped the car bottoming out around the banking and made it much more compliant.
That left me behind Axel's Matra with Tristan setting a cracking pace in the lead. Tris steadily pulled away and I tucked in behind Axel hoping that he would pull us clear of the chasing pack. I reckoned that we needed at least 250mtrs to get clear of the slipstream and prevent cars drafting up behind us, so I did not challenge Axel and let him pull us clear.
During this phase I was pleased to find that if I was correctly placed behind the Matra as we entered the banking, my high 5th gear gave me some potential for a pass as we approached the S/F line......maybe useful info for the final laps ;). Each time I backed off and allowed Axel to continue to lead us around and extend our safety cushion.
Then with about 12 laps to go? Tris was suddenly just ahead again..looked like he had gone off and was recovering, so it was a 3 way fight again. A lap later it seems that Tris was making a SnG and that let Axel and myself into 1st/2nd.
With 8 laps to go and a reasonable gap back to a recovering Tris ( who now had full tanks of fuel) I decided to apply some pressure to Axel as I had given him a hassle free race until then  ;D. and I thought he ought to have something to think about for the final laps. ::)
I used the slipstream again to get right under his wing approaching T1 and might have distracted him enough to cause him to go wide. I was through and knew I had half a lap before the banking, and the advantage of my extra wing, to ensure that I had a defendable gap when we got to the fast bit....so I blitzed that section and arrived on the banking with 300mtrs lead....phew!!! Now it was a case of making sure that I had the same gap for the last 6 laps each time I started the fast bit, which meant nailing the infield section without mistakes. This was where I was glad I had given myself the extra wing angles as it made the car very sure footed.

I think I maintained the "safe gap" until the flag and was quite chuffed to have taken on the Matras on a speed circuit in a slower car and stolen the win.
Grats to Axel for the tow  :thumbup2: and to Tris for some stunning pace as he pulled away.
Bridgehampton will be a different challenge which will probably need slightly more wing???  lol.

Back to the debate about wings. My thoughts are always that I need a car that is comfortable and predictable first, which usually means I can drive it at 100% if I need to, without getting bitten in the a** by a sudden snap.
 For the 69's I tend to setup the handling WITHOUT wings first...looking for mechanical grip ( if there is such a thing!!). A few laps will set a benchmark time for a wing free car.. Then I make a guess about the max wing angles that a circuit might need and do a few more laps, adjusting the balance of wing angles front/rear to preserve the handling balance. Once I feel I have the ratio front/rear of wing angle about right to dial out under/oversteer and give plenty of traction out of the turns, I then save that setup so that I can go back to that baseline if I need to.

 I save a second setup where I knock a couple of degrees off both front and rear wings to see if it gains me anything on overall laptimes..especailly at somewhere like Daytona where there are long fast sections. I am not concerned with the max top speed ( although that will help make a pass) but with outright lap times as this will dictate overall race time and position. During each phase I tweak gears to ensure that I am using all of that lovely torque without over revving the engine. Unless I have made some really bizarre guesses en route, I normally have a car that goes well and is driveable.
This method might help some get a handle on the setup of these beasts or it might confuse things even more. I guess everyone has their own methods of achieving their setup but of all the mods I think the 69's repay a methodical setup handsomely because of the extra grip/drag factor of the wings and how they relate to each circuit.

Ain't nobody got time fo dat!

I do it the lazy way these days - go onto the server, observe the top speed of the top lap times drivers, then set up the wings accordingly and work on the balance. It usually works out, at least most of the time.

lol H.

I think it actually took longer to write that it does to do in practice.  I set up the Mclaren from almost default entirely in qually..... actually probably in about the first 15-20 mins. If I had already had a setup in my archives for the Mclaren ,it would have taken only about 10 mins to tweak using the same process.

Incidentally the argument about having circuits that do not need wings does not really hold up does it? I won using 5.5 front and 8.5 rear....maybe not exactly max downforce, but hardly  "no wing"???? ;)

the problem with running a wing free car is the mod also has aero lift so handling in fast turns wont be what your expecting , if i remember rightly a front wing set at 2 will get rid of it . after that i would be best to set the rear wing to the angle that you think will be needed and "trim" the balance by adjusting the front .

john

We're still mostly running fast low-downforce tracks this season though. The mod is much more enjoyable when you take advantage of the high grip by running high downforce, around twisty tracks to get the cars drifting nicely. I'd rather run 67s on tracks like Reims, at least corners are actually challenging and you don't die of boredom.

Well, lets put it another way then, lets say a track which is effectively a long straight interspersed with 4 hairpins you take in 1st or 2nd gear, is not exactly the most suitable to enjoy the high speed/high grip combination which sets this particular mod apart from any other. Combined with the high slipstream effect, this becomes effectively something very close to a drafting race, of which we have already 3 in the season (!). Now, drafting races may well be fun for some, but you can have them with any of the mods, as the slipstream is pretty strong in all of them. It is the medium/high speed corners at full speed you cant have with any other mod, tracks like Interlagos, or even Mexico were a good choice I think, long enough straights to race, interesting corners to actually drive. Still, as I wrote in my post above, the need to time your pass at the exit of the bankings make this a more interesting track for racing than, say, Reims or Hockenheim.

We could always put in a twisty track for the last three rounds if people want it. What about....

Fill in the blanks. Clermont? Zandy?

I would be quite happy to replace Reims and I HATE Hockenheim. You can have too much of a straight...

Out of the last 3 races remaining, Bridgehampton and Interlagos seem fine, so that leaves Hockenheim, which I wouldn't mind to see replaced. I haven't really thought on possible replacements, but Zandy sounds good.

I would be very much up for it. The ones you said would be fine, theres also Anderstorp which is decent enough and not much used. Also, more racing-friendly tracks like Rouen, Riverside, Zeltweg. Erm...Solitude, anyone.. :'(? We would only need one, as Reims has already been inflicted earlier in the season..

If we're to keep with the country-related tracks, how about Schottenring? That would be a blast in the 69s!

LOL - Only just saw Reims had gone. I drove it as well!

I thought about the Schottenring - I also wondered about Pacific Raceways but maybe too many American tracks or Preluk or Brno....

The other one I wondered about was Clermont - that WOULD be a challenge

How about something a little off the usual list....Neuvilles? some great fast corners around there

Don't know it but happy to give it a go - have we raced there?

As long as they're not flat out, I don't mind. The track has to be safe in terms of screen freeze as well.

Lol, some places I haven't even heard of are popping up here! I checked youtube for a video of the Shottenring and it does look great, as Clermont does of course. Anything is good to me, I'll leave you guys digging out some good entries from your personal database (but it's Neuville or Nivelles..?). If it has to be a 5 mins, very complex track though, we shouldn't leave it to the last minute as people need some time to learn it.

Schottenring would be totally insane in the 69s, that's why I'm asking for it!  ;D

We just drove it with the CanAms at Funliga...
Great fun! I am for this track  ::)

OK Schottenring for Hockenheim... that gives people a month to find and learn it.

My Race was terrible.
After a decent start one of the Mercaldo-Brothers send me over the wall. After the Shift_r and the Stop and Go my Race was destroyed because my Wing-Setup was about that one from Evil. My Idea was also to benefit from the Tow of the Low-Wing-Cars and trying something in the slower Parts of the Track. But for sure there was no one left to give me any slipstream. And so in the end I must say I was complete wrong with my "HighTowerWingCar" .
For the discussion of the Tracks I want to say that I do not mind to change one of the Tracks now, but I am also fine to leave it like it is for now.
But for the next Season I would love to see Tracks like Assen, Bathurst and Clermont in the Race- Calendar.

So long
Andreas

I love the "revolving door" method :)

Probably too late now for the 69's but..................

I have just downloaded and tried a new track for me    CILCE. 

You want sweeping corners? hard braking into tight corners?  a mixture of slow and fast sections? 4.7mile laps.....awesome  :eek: :drool:
It is on the track database so download and try.
If I get the chance to run a mod next season THIS TRACK will be in the mix!

I was just passing and happened to hear mention of getting shott.  This may be the case, but Cookie failed to mention we had only 2 Can-Ams standing, when I left at 2/3 race distance, after 1 reset each.  And it's approval here has come from a driver unfamiliar with the track.

It is a fantastic track - it is the cause of much loss of life - I may well be it's next victim.   

Is it a fantasy track though? I thought we only race at real tracks?


Really? What kind of mad racing series drove there? ;o

I think historically we keep the 67's on real tracks, but as far as I know there is no hard ruling about fantasy tracks within UKGPL. But maybe I am wrong?

We have used Effex and Jops Siffert quite often and they are fantasy circuits.

 I would not dismiss a circuit just because it is the product of someone's feverish imagination, but rather rate tracks on the challenge they present and the racing that they give us?

After all, most circuits started out as the product of someone's imagination didn't they, its just that the project was made real?

These were Can-Am's so speedwise not so different.  Two races - first I led first half as others crashed.  Second, started nearer last - saw 3 or 4 crashes by 5km, then my turn - realized 1st is safer.  :laugh: 

I do not have these 69x installed ATM.  If you must race at 'The Schott' I'll hope to join you.  Podium last '66  because I survived.

Its a fantastic track. Fantasy or not we really should be racing on tracks of this quality. One volunteer for track testing ready and willing!

I meant in reality, what series drove there?

As for fantasy tracks, if we are allowed to use them, then how come we race the same tracks each 2 season all the time? I would have loved to see The Moon being used in an official race and not just for fun races...

Hmmm . . .  my sponsorship has not  yet been paid.  I pledge myself as a Ukgpl fan, but none-the-less, they're a 60fps group with fast habits . . . . and I am not referring to a group of racing Nuns!   They race Religeously every week . . . "Grumble!"  Guests include Dean Logan, Jonnie Ackermann, myself, and Sergio L. who hopes to make his debut appearance next week - none of whom are Nuns.   However, some are known to prey upon their opponents.  :angel:

Fantasy tracks - if not already tried and tested, would first need to be tried and tested.

Ok - didn't quite understand correctly until this was repeated.  I believe the track was used in the 40's and 50's, and a quick look at the track readme might well elucidate.  I write better than I read, but traction and speed would have been hugely different.  Also the tree's and various objects were less likely to ensnare cars originally.   When released, this was one of the best, and I think it remains one of the greatest challenges.  Not everyone is up to the challenge.

Afaik this is not a fantasy track, just goggled for it ;)

In 1953 it was used in the Motobike World Championship

(http://www.duchardt-online.de/mediac/450_0/media/DIR_13702/Schottenring.JPG)

I didn't mean Schotten, I know that one is real. I meant the track Evil mentioned.

Guys, we did race Dragon's Nest in Works a few seasons back (S22?), which is fantasy, so this discussion is a bit of a non-starter... I think fantasy tracks are a great opportunity made possible by the game. If it were for me, I would race Gothica and Slotcars  ;D ;D

Rollercoaster please

 . . . . . . . . .  ;D  ;D  ;D

I see that more as an exception of the rule rather than a tendency. 22 was the season I skipped, but in all others I've participated I don't think there was a free choice of fantasy tracks. I agree though, there are some awesome fantasy tracks and if we drop the rule of running real tracks completely, we could get a refreshing variety of new tracks which nobody (or very few) would know. They have to be safe tracks though, freeze-wise.

I'm pretty sure there has never been a published rule that mandated the use of real tracks only.  It's true that when UKGPL started, the intention was to recreate the original 67 season but a formal rule outlawing fantasy tracks was never agreed.  Over the years we have tended to use real tracks but we have used an occasional fantasy track.  I think the first fantasy track we ever used was Lime Rock (extended version).

That is the issue in a nutshell.  New tracks create interest for drivers looking for a challenge but if a driver doesn't have the time to learn a new track it is a disincentive.  Any track, real or fantasy has to be reliable and stable.

The compromise of trying to introduce 1 or 2 new tracks per season is a good one.  There is no need to limit ourselves to real tracks IMO. 

How about GPVL Founders or Vallelunga '71?  ;D
The first is a fantasy track from my wife's son mind and yours truly.  :)
http://gpltd.bcsims.com/?dis=G#19

The second is the clockwise seventy version of Vallelunga. Both tracks are safe and stable.

http://www.fpolicardi.it/vallelunga.htm

Ciao

Seeing the interest generated here regarding "fantasy tracks" I have just had a fiendish thought about the GT/Can Am series next season.

 Maybe it could be run as we did this season, alternating between GT's and Can Ams on 5 circuits but all fantasy tracks? I think we have at least 3 proven "safe" fantasy tracks thus far, that we have used before, and they would not be totally new to everyone.

The Moon
Jops Siffert
Effex

So, between now and the start of next season let me know of any fantasy tracks that have proven themselves stable and also offer some opportunity of good racing and I will compile a list. Maybe we could test some in the fun races between seasons.
With luck we could build up a list of reliable and popular fantasy circuits from which we could use 1 or 2 in other mods each season??
Your thoughts gentlemen? ::)

It would certainly be different.  Phil plans to test Sopheve.  If most will be learning it anyway, it's another candidate to consider.  It's not a easy track though, so a definite maybe?

Erm...Tortuga anyone..? Just tried it, very nice track, and you get to drive to the beach, with girls in bikini waving at you from the trackside  ;D ;D. Beware though, theres killer tsunami waves if you venture too far on the sea.. ;D

I had a casual look around the track database and downloaded this 'Glacier international' (theres also a winter section, nice and refreshing to run over the summer, if only you guys had one..). It is a very long track, and very fast for the most of it. Maybe theres more fun tracks around, but this is very wide, which could be a plus for the big sportscars.

Road 67. Very fast & would be great fun in the Can-Ams.

maybe this should be moved to a new thread , i guess not every gt/can am driver is reading a 69x race thread clive .

john

yes I think you might be right John. It does seem to have generated rather a lot posts.

This discussion about fantasy tracks will continue on the GPL general section.

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=11662.0

Mods in...

Apologies to Piero for my goof on braking into T1. :(

Thanks for a good dice in the closing stages.