SimRacing.org.uk

UKGPL Season 24 - Pro Trophy - Race 7 St.Jovite  

We will be at Mont-Tremblant in Quebec. The track was built in 1964 and hosted the first ever CanAm race (in 1966, winner John Surtees on a Lola)  and two Formula 1 GP (in 1968, winner Denny Hulme and in 1970, winner Jacky Ickx, in 1970 it was also the first ever  F1 GP for a Tyrell).  

The Pro Drivers will have a free car choice. Drivers will have to remain in that chassis for the rest of the season, they will only be allowed to swap chassis in exceptional circumstances and only with the approval of the moderator.

There will be full moderation of lap one Red Zone and reported incidents for the rest of the race.
Please submit incident reports within a week after the race so that the moderators report may be out before the next race.
Full time drivers have priority access to the server until 21.00 UK time.
Please restrict your chat to a minimum!

The specific division rules for the Pro Trophy (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=391&theme=6) have changed as the INT division has been suspended.
Handicapping will be introduced from race three onwards and will only affect the top three drivers in the championship. The top three drivers may, at the moderator's discretion, be limited to a slower car. If handicapping is in action then handicapped drivers will be notified in the race post.

Tristan is allowed to take a BT11 for the next races.

Race List	=	IGOR
Server	=	UKGPL_8
IP Address	=	tba
Race date	=	30-04-2013
Qualification Time	=	~20:45  UK time -> 30-45 min
Race Time	=	race starts at 21:30 UK time
Track	=	StJovite (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=121)
Variant	=	65F1 the 2.02 Release of the 65mod should be used
Damage Model	=	PRO
Race length	=	~50 min -> 30 laps
RED ZONE	=	from race start to the exit of T8
Password	=	see above (#post_event_password)
Replay	=	you will get here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season24/Pros/)

GLA

First up let me say I'm all for this series to be run in future with its usual no handicap rules. But this season for reasons which have already been explained we are using handicapping, or are we?????

Handicapping will be introduced from race three onwards and will only affect the top three drivers in the championship. The top three drivers may, at the moderator's discretion, be limited to a slower car. If handicapping is in action then handicapped drivers will be notified in the race post.

Current standings:-
Florian Gebhardt (R1)203.0

Cookie (FT)196.0

Hristo Itchov (FT)193.0

DLogan (FT)160

Top three have a 30 plus point lead over Dean let alone a much bigger lead over everyone else.
 
Florian was handicapped last time, but did not race and but has no handicap this time so gets to keep his Lotus?

Meanwhile Tristan gets a BT11, good for Tristan?

Has handicapping been scrapped?

The way I see it, handicap in this division is meant to keep the championship battle alive, not to give a chance for people who are not on par with the top drivers to mix in with them. In other words, it's to prevent one of the top 4-5 in the division to get a big lead in the standings over the other 3-4.

I do believe you are right Hristo. Its the dead opposite of what I thought the handicapping was meant to achieve for EVERYBODY, but you are so so right in your summary.

The most telling and dare I say chilling observation you make is "not to give a chance for people who are not on par with the top drivers to mix in with them".

I appreciate your honesty and candour but I cannot promise not to attempt to "mix in with them" tomorrow night.

I don't see why someone not deserving to win the title should win it, please explain so I can get your point of view. Handicap is not meant to rob from victory those who deserve to win, it is to keep things closer but maintain the perspective. A 60 points difference is just a single victory, it's nothing by our points system. You must be forgetting this division is called Professionals and I honestly don't care about the demands of Inters who got mixed in it, it's like asking for a total revamp of the division balance for the sake of slower drivers mid-way (and past it really) through the season. Isn't it a bit late for your remarks? Where's your post in the mid-season review? Oh wait, you didn't post there at all.

If it was a championship-based consistent systematic handicap from the start, then by all means, I'm up for it. It's working fine in the Historics and F2 divisions. For some reason 65s are stubbornly keeping to the same old flawed system of one-chassis for the whole season, with the addition of subjectively decided handicaps (or suddenly an undercap as seen with Tristan here). Demanding suddenly more severe handicaps when the championship is at the final stage of being decided between a couple of us (who are very close pace-wise) is ridiculous though.

We were just following your logics, when asked by Tristan.
Honda or BT11 seem to be equal, regarding the handicap level...

Yes, I know, I'm just saying it's an undercap to give someone the choice of another car in addition to his normal one, instead of limiting them to 1 different car as is normal handicap. I don't really mind in this case though, it's fine by me, in fact I would prefer if Tristan was racing a top car as well so we can really fight on par. I was just mentioning it to point out to Ronnie how things are being done this particular season.

Am I missing something? Anyone who races has a chance to win. Its not for anyone to pre-ordain who can and cannot win.

As I said I am all for the Pro series to be run with no handicapping. This sentiment had already been made in the mid season review by others and so I don't see the need to add anything at this stage. But for this season it was agreed before the first race that we would be operating a handicap on the leading three drivers. I don't see why rules agreed and now being ignored.

Its just getting extremely stupid. First we had people requested not to take the Lotus turning up in the Lotus. Next we had people using more than one chassis in a single chassis series. This was followed by the series leader being handicapped and refusing to use thew handicap car. In addition they received no penalty for this infringement of the rules. The leading three drivers have built up a sufficient lead to warrant handicapping (for comparison see the much harsher point differential that was used so successfully in the inters last season) but they have not been.

I merely ask the question are or are we not operating a handicap system this season. If we are, can the moderator confirm if it is the one agreed at the start of the season or the one insisted upon by disgruntled drivers during the season. In short have the lunatics taken over the running of the asylum!

hi

i don't know what's append, but my 65 mod don't work any more  :(    ...igot an error message of GPL.!..... i'll try to fix it but i don't know how....so maybe I'm not racing whith you this evening........ :-\

what was the error message ?

Yes, you're missing something. It's one thing to say anyone has a chance to win races, but who is more likely to win it's what it's about. Otherwise you may as well say Caterham have a chance to win a race in F1. Currently we have a couple of top drivers who deserve to win based on their ability, and they've been winning races this season to prove that. How is it justified to handicap one or two of them so late in the season and rob them of their chance to fight for the title with the rest who are on similar pace? We're not using the same system as in Historic and F2, so it makes no sense to suddenly do that.

The handicap for the 3 leading drivers would have worked if it was done systematically, every race, but that's not been the case, so who is to decide when and why someone is handicapped, and when not? It's like you want an interference for the championship for the last races, even though it didn't happen consistently so far. I'd rather see a fair fight without such interference.

      " GPL HAVE ENCOUNTER A PROBLEM AND HAVE TO CLOSE ....SORRY ABOUT....."

Maybe try reinstall gpl and gem+ with 65 mod? Or try rebuild the exe files with GEM+? You have 1 hour to fix it, so there's time.

SORRY Natan! :oops:

np Axel !
Can you find some other drivers to ruin they are race and season please ?It doesnt has to be me all the time !!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ???

We will just have to agree to disagree on who deserves to win a race/series. I still maintain that anyone taking part is deserving of a win if they come first/or a championship if they finish with most points.

As for everything else I completely agree with you. Why when we switched from intermediate damage to pro damage the implied handicapping was not jettisoned at the same time is a mystery to me. But it was not and the fact that handicapping has been kept but not applied has been confusing. Will people get to pick and choose rules or simply ignore them in the future? It sets a dangerous precedent and I think some clarification if rules are merely going to be guidelines in some instances is required.

Enough of this from me, back to the race last night. A good start put me in the mix with the trio of Loti and when Hristo and Dean held each other up and Clive spun I took my chance to lead for a short while. But it was not to last. Grats to Hristo and Clive, you were both just too fast for me. I did my best to hold onto the lead and second spot respectively but the slightest error and both of you pounced and showed a turn of speed I could not match even with a slipstream. Likewise Dean was a touch too fast for me but I assume I had more luck and on track time to secure that third place. Better luck next time mate. See you all at the next round.

I am just beginning to believe that I might have solved my disco problems.....now watch me disco in the next race!!! ::)

Grats to Hristo for a fine win.

When Hristo and Ronnie? tangled early in the race I thought I had a chance to escape and sneak away into the lead. I was just far enough ahead to be out of slipstream range and if I could maintain my qually pace I might just stay out of reach.    Well, that might have worked if I had kept my right foot off the gas a little longer at T6. Instead I was too eager to get on the gas and I managed to spin up the rear tyres and spin nicely on to the infield  :-\ I was not far enough ahead to be able to rejoin and I had to wait for at least 3 hours whilst the field streamed past.
By the time I did get going, the red fog was VERY thick and I hunted down the cars in front one by one. It took a few laps but eventually I found myself in 4th with the leading trio of Dean, Ronnie and Hristo showing themselves in the distance . Lap by lap the gap came down and I glimpsed their cars more often. I was hoping that their 3 way scrap would just hinder them enough that I could get involved.
Then Dean made a mistake and Hristo took the lead, followed by Ronnie as I inherited 3rd.
I suspect that at about this time in the race Hristo turned the screw and teh pace of the leading 2 increased...at least the gap stopped coming down as quickly!!! But it was still coming down, so I must be lapping slightly quicker than they were.
Gradually Hristo eased a gap on Ronnie and he slipped back into my clutches :devil:
One or two laps harrasing Ronnie paid off when he put a wheel on the grass and I grabbed the chance to take 2nd spot. It was crucial to get a gap over Ronnie or he would certainly attempt to regain the place, so I pushed VERY hard for a couple of laps until the rear tyre temps dictated that I ease up slightly.
 During those fast laps I did reduce the gap to Hristo, but I was never fast enough or close enough to mount a challenge for the lead. I made the classic mistake of easing off and relaxing once I had a 300mtr lead over Ronnie with only a few laps to go and simply got too lazy out of the final turn and managed a complete 360 spin. Fortunately I was just far enough ahead of Ronnie to hold on to 2nd place as I rejoined, but now I had a car in my mirrors with only a few laps to go...not good when that car is in the hands of someone as fast as Ronnie!!! :o
I pushed hard again to get a few hundred mtrs lead and was able to cruise the final lap to hold 2nd spot.

For me a really satisfying race recovering from a disaster at the beginning and crawling back to take 2nd spot.
Grats to Hristo Ronnie and commiserations to Dean who maybe should also have been in contention for the podium.

I don't think we made contact, Evil, it was just that I lost it a bit over the crest trying to give room to the inside. This and my other off early on were due to the car being very unstable under braking and under throttle, so much that I couldn't really compete with Dean and was about on par with Ronnie's slower (overall) BT11. The BT11 had superb acceleration and traction out of the corners though, so I couldn't really find a way past, and Dean was much quicker under braking and through the slower corners, so I had to push really hard and defend sometimes. Fortunately for me all 3 - Evil, Ronnie and Dean - made bigger mistakes at different times in the race, so I could inherit the lead, and with the fuel going down my pace also improved, so I didn't really push harder or anything, it's just that the car became a bit easier to drive near the end and I could maintain and then increase the gap.

Great racing though, I was pleasantly surprised by the pace of Dean and Ronnie, and Evil was right in there too, as it took a lot of effort to beat his qualifying lap time. Looking forward to the next races where it should be as intense as this one!

As the dust settles, I think the message has been delivered, that adjust 'on the fly', handicapping is unwanted.  The way to prevent it's temptation, is to correctly predict the relative speed of cars and drivers, and handicap around that prediction.  IT NEEDS TO BE ACCEPTED BY ALL, THAT NO SYSTEM IS PERFECT.  Some will be happier than others, but an honest and well thought out system, should keep most happy enough.

It wouldn't surprise me to learn, that individual Moderators, have been free to choose the handicap system they personally prefer, without sufficient debate within the group.  I'd suggest a larger, 'Brain Trust' is needed - more consultation and approval before new ideas are tried out on our perambulations.  The discontent among the troops you see here, is a result of decisions taken at the top.  Where to apply a handicap is another matter. 

The only real grumbling has been in the Pros and the handicapping is necessarily imperfect because it was never intended to be applied to this series. Next season we will try and run three grids again but both the Inters and Novices will be handicapped. It remains to be see whether the grid sizes justify the extra work. If not we will probably run Pros unhandicapped and Novices with a more wide ranging handicap to take better account of the wide disparity in abilities.

 . . . . .  . . . . . .  Ok, sounds good.  8)

I really hope you'll finally crack and use (in the divisions with handicap) the much better championship standing-based handicap system instead of a fixed chassis after the start of the season.

Moderation published