SimRacing.org.uk

Season 25 Friday Trophy - Rounds 21 & 22 - Panchine

Welcome to the next round for the Friday Trophy this time at Panchine. A very convincing fantasy track imagined to be in North Italy. Fast, sweeping circuit with traps for the unwary. There are a couple of jumps, a tricky turn or two and very sticky hedges, so be careful. It is a relatively long circuit so space should open up, but slipstreaming might be crucial whether you are in front or behind.

This should be a track where the handicap for the Lights gives the Heavies a real chance to get amongst the podium slots with their faster cars. Keeping mistakes to a minimum and using the extra pace on the long straights might cause some problems for the Lights.


This round is for the F2s and 69X.

                                Heavies                                     Lights
Cars for F2            Brab BT23 and Lotus 48,               Cooper and Ferrari
Cars for 69X          Lotus 49b and Matra MS80        Mclaren M9A and BRM P126/139



"Please ensure you are aware of the new in-series penalties for this season. Details are here (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=10879.0). Drivers incurring a penalty will receive a PM informing them of this."

Race list	iGOR
Server	TBA
IP address	TBA
Date	11-10-2013
Race time	Race 1 starts at 21:05 UK time
Qualifying time	minimum 15 minutes, starting no later than 20:45 UK time
Track	Panchine
Mod	F2 and 69x
Damage model	INT (Each driver is allowed a single Shift-R with no stop and go required)
Race length	10 laps (F2) and 13 laps (69x)
Red Zone	from the START line to the exit of the end of main straight
Replay	Available here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season25/Friday/)

Full(ish) moderation of lap 1 red zone.

I propose to start Race 1 at 21:30 UK time  ;)

I have no problem with a later start, if that is what the majority would like. It does of course mean that the 2nd race will finish later?

Maybe all those who race in the Friday can post their preference here and we can see what will be the most popular.??

This does not work for me as I find even 9.00pm a problem sometimes with having to get up for work early, including most Saturdays.

This has been an incredibly fun series thus far, so I would hope to at least make Race 1, if people do want to race later.

I hope we stick with the early starts or even earlier!!! But accept we should go with the majority decision.

I suggest that until we get enough members expressing a definite preference about starting times we should keep things as they are and start at the time posted on the race announcement.

If we change the time for this Friday (only 48 hrs away) without a real consensus view and an official announcement, we will have confusion and chaos.

So the Friday Trophy Race for Friday 11th Oct will start at the normal time

If you would prefer that future Friday Trophy Races to start earlier OR later please post on this thread and if there is a definite majority who would like to see a change we will implement it.

If possible I would like to start the race five minutes before everyone else as this will make a significant improvement to my results. If that doesn't really work then I'm quite happy with the existing start (08.45 Quallification Race 1) - any earlier does start to cause problems at home.

I often keep my server open for training during the week but...it doesn't seem someone have any interest to test his performances publicly.

  I might need some practice this evening..............I suspect that this track will make it very hard work for the Lights!!!

Anyone got a benchmark time for the F2's and 69x's???

I am not even looking at the GT's and Can Ams for next week yet, the speed difference could be a real headache!! lol

OOPS...I forgot to give an important information, I don't have neither mod 69 nor mod F2 installed !

lol... no problem Sergio, I am sure that I can practice off line and be just as bad !!  ;D

Unimpressed with race 1, let me tell ya.  ???  >:(

SORRY Dean!
Of course my fault, but with a little more space left and working together we would have caught the front runners easy..

Race 1 - really pleased with how the Brabham was working - almost had pole until Ronnie nicked it at the end. My non-familiarity with the sharp end of the grid really showed on lap 2 when there looked like a chance to draft Cookie & Ronnie and take the lead with a masterstroke move. Only problem was I hadn't anticipated Ronnie's turn in & it ended in disaster. Big sorry to Ronnie & whoever got tangled up in the aftermath. Rest assured a lesson has been learned. Appears my error allowed team mate Dave C to nip through & hold out for a win. Not intended but I reckon you owe me a pint Dave.
69X I am less adept with. Started almost last, blew an engine & finished last. Well done to Dave Rainier - two wins out of two for Black Night.
Should be back for the next Open wheeler race - great series, shame we don't get a few more starters.

Just compare...

(http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/542/lkwc.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/lkwc.jpg/)
(http://imageshack.us/scaled/thumb/23/xl74.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/23/xl74.jpg/)

Lets get the bad out of the way first. Sorry Dave R for the punt up the back in Race 1.

Despite this and a few other entertaining bumps and scrapes along the way these were two really enjoyable races. I almost feel sorry for anyone not able to participate on Fridays. For me they are missing the best series this season by a country mile. It caters for all, from the championship hungry challengers and those just after a quick fix of close racing. I'm getting like a scratched record but thanks again to the organisers.

Grats to the podiums in both races.

 Yes it is a shame we do not get a few more cars on the grids for this series, because we do appear to be getting some exciting races for all sorts of reasons.

The car handicap for the lights certainly worked last night and the Heavies found themselves in close company at the front, both in qually and in the race. On the other hand some of the lights ( ahem!!!  ...me  ::) ::)) found themselves at the back of the grid for the F2 race in a somewhat underpowered Ferrari invalid carriage and I was extremely fortunate to sneak a podium through others misfortune. I always like a challenge and the Fezza was certainly that around Panchine!!
To have any chance I needed a  (huge) tow in the fezza to stay in touch and maybe to snatch a place or two. The first lap was OK and I hooked up behind David  waiting for my tyres to warm up. Then the lap 2 incident happened ahead and I was fortunate to be far enough back to be able to pick my way through the debris along with David to emerge as a leading 3 some with Dave Curtis in his Lotus. The speed advantage of the Lotus was hugely evident on each straight as Dave simply galloped past, but maybe the experience of David and myself through the corners allowed us to stay together as a leading trio. I had to stay in touch and use the slipstream because without it I was going to be caught by Axel and Ronnie who were reeling us in, very quickly, after recovering from lap 2. With a few laps to go Axel and Ronnie caught us and I think there was an incident?? and sudeenly there were just 3 again with a lap to go?? I could not match the speed of the others and sat behind to steal a very unexpected 3rd  ;D
Race 2 with 69's I had chosen the Mclaren and was surprised to get as high on the grid as I did in the orange rollerskate. I was on the outside at T1 and stayed wide because I could not see the car inside. As a result I was bullied off the tarmac by a Big Beasty BRM lol ( NP just part of racing) and rejoined in last place  :-\
I had chosen an ultra low downforce setup and set about using my extra pace on the long straights to haul my way back up the field. I think Dave Curtis had his Matra set up with very high wings because he was easy to pass on the straight but was a real threat under braking. Cars dropped out and I slowly progressed up the field until I could see the leading group of 4 ahead.
I pushed as hard as I dared to close the gap but the laps were running out ...until the 4 of them started to dispute lines into corners and lost time allowing me to get into slipstream range. With a lap to go Andreas blew his engine and I was 4th....then 2 cars tangled at the end of the straight and I was 2nd behind David Ranier, but I was just too far behind to make a passing attempt before the line. Another lap and I think my extra speed on the straights might have made a difference.....but it was not to be.
Grats to the winners and runners.

These races did give the Heavies a real chance to compete and maybe gain the experience of close racing at the sharp end. The only way to learn about that is to be there and do it ( maybe Billy got it slightly wrong lol! but he won't make that mistake next time?). In the 69 race Dave Curtis tried a pass on me under braking that might have ended in tears if I had not seen him coming in my mirrors and delayed my turn in lol.
I guess that is where experience comes in handy. Personally I think that what helps most when dicing at the sharp end is

 1) patience.... when you are racing at almost 100% there is little room for error and you are more likely to cause an accident and lose places with a risky move. Better to wait for a really good opening that you can truly exploit before you make a pass, so that even if you cannot make the move work both cars stay in the race and you do not LOSE any places.
2) awareness.....This is something you can only gain by experience in GPL. If you are involved in a race with 1 other car it is relatively easy to work out where he is, especially if he is in front!. If he is behind and you can see him in the mirrors, also easy. When he is behind but you cannot see him, then you MUST assume that he is alongside and leave him room until he either drops back into the mirror view or passes you. This might take 2 or 3 corners, but if you cannot see him then he has to be alongside!!
 When you move this into a 4 or 5 car battle things become far more complicated and busy. You are naturally looking for an opportunity to take a place ahead and concentrating on maximising your pace, but at the same time you need to keep tabs on what the car(s) behind are doing. Mirrors are not good in GPL but they are all we have, so use them and try and count the cars that you can see. If there were 3 cars last time and you can now only see 2...where has he gone?? This is where I find Pribluda invaluable, because I run minimal info during races but I keep the relative position option open. A quick glance will tell me if I have a car 1-2 mtrs behind (or even zero behind which means he is alongside and in my blind spot) and I can be sure to leave room.
Also remember that if you are the car attempting the pass you cannot just assume that the guy in front knows where you are and will give you room. Sometimes it pays to make your intentions to pass clear by getting close to the car in front so that you loom large in his mirrors before pulling out, especially when slipstreaming...but be careful not to hit the rear wheel of the car in front.

OK lecture over lol! just trying to help avoid avoidable problems in next week's races when the handicaps will be even more noticeable in GT's and Can Ams and the extra speed available to the Heavies will certainly bring them into close contention, but hopefully not contact with the Lights.

With a good setup, and a fast car, I knew I'd a chance at a good result in the 1969 GP of Panchine.  Despite grabbing the pole, I knew it would be hard to break the tow, from those underpowered, over experienced hounds who'd be dogging my tail.  Decided to run my own race, and not overstep the limit.  

Into the race, a preplanned pace, meant my mirrors were kept entertained throughout.  I think almost everyone made an appearance at some point!  But when challenged, I could always up the pace enough, to hold off each wretched attacker. :) And with enough smoke production, the Matra could outbrake every opponent, at the hard right hander mid-lap.  So I entered the final round, and the final challenge, with confidence.

It was Raoni's turn to attack.  After exchanging places 4 times at mid-lap, I was expecting to have a straightforward advantage, at the hard righter, but this time I met with Raoni's prowess, at the apex.  No serious damage done, but our 1st and 2nd, became an instantaneous 3rd and 4th, without the time needed to regroup.  None-the-less a tremendous race, around the place - great fun!  :D

I see you managed to catch up anyway, but the implication that I'm somehow responsible for staying out of your way, is both against the rules of this league and common sense.


Um, NO. If you're behind, it's your responsibility to pass safely. If you can't, fall back and wait for a good opportunity (as I had already done several times that race).

The first notice I had that Cookie was even trying to come up beside me (3 wide = BAD in GPL) was when I got punted sideways into the shrubbery.

Basically, if you can see me (and not the other way around), then it's your responsibility to avoid contact.

My comments were not intended to be taken as a judgement of any incidents in the race, but more as the way I approach close quarter racing.

I quite agree that it is the responsibility of the car attempting to pass to avoid contact (which is why I added the comment about NOT assuming that the car in front will leave room), but as you may have discovered, being right does not save you from becoming involved in an incident and losing a place or two?

I was trying to show that by being aware of what is going on, you can take action to avoid being part of an incident. No matter whether you are right or wrong, contact with another car WILL cost you either in places or time, possibly even an exit from the race. Having said that, I do not advocate getting out of the way for every car that tries to pass. Sometimes it is necessary to shut the door early enough to discourage any attempt at a pass, but any such move MUST be made before the car behind even thinks about a passing attempt. Otherwise you would be guilty of blocking and that is a no-no  :nono:

An example of awareness, was in the 69 race when Dave Curtis tried a rather brave move on me under braking and I saw him coming. Had I turned in on the normal racing line ( which I had every right to do) he would have collected me across his front wing and probably ended both our races. I delayed my turn in and kept a straight line until he shot past and I was able to turn behind him, totally untouched and losing only a few tenths. It also meant that Dave suffered no damage..other than to his pride as he ran wide.. and was able to continue his race.

My comments were always intended as general advice to those who might be in such a position next week in the GT's and Can Ams, although I think the advice stands for all racing.

Of course I am aware of my responsability...

After we had this mess in lap2 (where I was an inocent victim) we closed the gap to the front runners.
Every racer knows that fighting in such a group only helps the guys in the lead.


 

How to ruin a great series? I know, incident reports and squabbling in the forum, great :(

I'm sure we have all been punted off, cut up etc in one or more races. Big deal! The races at Panchine were excellent as pretty much all the races to date so far.

Reported or not, discussed in the forum or not, we all get it wrong from time to time. Unless someone is seriously being singled out for deliberately ruining someone else's race in which case introduce some DQ's and race bans, can we not just move on.

It would be a shame to see this series disappear down the toilet like the Porsche Super Cup.

Ronnie, I hope that others follow your view on how this series should/could be conducted.
I repeat that my lengthy post about awareness was NOT aimed at anyone in particular as I have not even got around to looking at any replays yet, but was as a result of noticing one or two multi car incidents during the races at Panchine.  I was merely trying to help everyone enjoy longer safer races.

 I set this series up ( with Axel) to accommodate all of the car sets for which there was no space, or time for a dedicated championship during season 25. So, what we have is  a multi class FUN series that hopefully gives both faster and slower members the opportunity to race for the podium places within a very simple framework.

The "handicap" was devised to be very, very simple and unambiguous, sidestepping the problem of whether the table leader is/is not too far ahead to warrant a handicap. The faster drivers get slower cars...simple.
The mixture of tracks was created to mix known Pappy tracks with circuits that have been used in UKGPL, plus introducing a few "new" circuits to spice things up.
Above all, I was hoping that The Friday Trophy ( not sure where the trophy is coming from!!! don't look at me at the end of the season ::)) would be a series that offered something that was more fun based and a little less intense on a Friday evening.

Unfortunately, once the green flag falls and the red mist descends passing the car in front can become the only thought in a drivers mind and I can understand that...we are after all wannabe racers ( my wife's assessment of us all at UKGPL) and no-one wants a lukewarm level of competition.

All I ask is that we race like it is real (it will hurt if we crash ;) ) and that we accept that no-one is perfect and we all make mistakes. Either mistakes of judgement, or of ambition over ability.
There is moderation for these races and all reported incidents ( plus any that are not, but attract the attention of the moderators) will be reviewed and penalties issued where appropriate. From a personal point of view, as moderator, I would prefer that there were zero incidents of any sort and I had nothing to do, but I am old enough to realise that such a thing is somewhat unlikely.

So far this season there have been very few incidents and all drivers should take a pat on the back for the spirit in which this series has been conducted. Please let's keep things like that.

Hi Ronnie,
I just read your comments following my incident report about our accident in Panchine F2 races.
I don't want you to be penalized and I didn't make any critics about your way of driving (which seems excellent from my point of view) but I just reported an accident.
Maybe you are 100% responsible, maybe it's me or maybe it is 50-50 ...I don't know, moderator will decide.

Sometimes in a recent past, it happened I had not quickly reported an accident (for example with Tristan in Monaco Historics66) and I received critics for that.
So I don't know what to do to make everybody happy !

To report or not to report, that is the question !

LOL
Hey guys, I hope you've exausted all your rage with your incidents and leave me safe next friday !!!  ;D (famous last words)  ::) :P

Hi Dave and anyone else reading. My response was directly aimed at the comments on this forum indicating a growing antagonism between the remaining dwindling number of drivers in this excellent Friday series. The same thing happened to the PSC series and it all ended in recriminations and tears. Lets keep this one going if we can.

As for incident reports, I'm not a fan.  For me, unless all incidents in every race reported or unreported, are investigated by the moderators you only end up with some drivers being penalised and/or toting up penalties for the same offences others get away with. Hardly fair?

But as someone not wishing to be a moderator myself this is simply asking far too much of the mod team who I am sure would rather sneak some practice time in rather than trawling through every incident  and replay. Which is why I am an advocate of apologise/accept the apology and move on. Sure if someone is deliberately taking liberties then I'm all for harsh penalties.

However, its just my opinion and I'm not saying I'm right and I have no wish to stop anyone else from using the current reporting system.

Like a scratched record again; I usually cannot stand the 69x, CanAms and those awful GT cars. But for some reason I forget all that in this series. The handicapping is great, the short format is great, two races on a Friday night!!! What more do people want? Of course its gonna get a bit white knuckle ride at times with this format but that (for me at least) is what gives it the edge/fun factor over the other series here at UKGPL.

Sorry to go on but I still really enjoy GPL on and offline and would hate to see that change. Selfish I know, but true. I will say no more apart from good luck everyone in your next race!

You are right about "reported incidents only" being potentially unfair which is why I would encourage all drivers to report every incident.  Reporting an incident doesn't mean you are trying to get the other guy into trouble, all you are doing is helping the moderator.  The moderating staff are totally unbiased and giving them the job of deciding who was right and who was wrong is much less acrimonious than drivers arguing on the forums.  I agree the ideal scenario is that the drivers agree, an apology is offered, accepted and we all move on.  But sometimes that doesn't happen and we end up with some very bad tempered posts on the forum, not good for anyone.  Whatever we do I believe a properly moderated incident is far more likely to improve standards than an informal agreement on the forum.

I have been moderating for many years now and I can confirm that I would much rather race than trawl through replays looking for incidents.  However when I do race I want to enjoy it and that means participating in close competitive races with plenty of wheel-to-wheel racing and lots of overtaking.  To do that we need disciplined drivers.  Racing GPL on-line is hard.  If UKGPL descended to the standards of the old Saturday night pick-up races where some idiot would punt you off at every other corner, I would pack up.  I'm happy to put some effort in as a moderator to make sure that doesn't happen. 

You may have noticed I create incident reports for everything I see in the 67 Works races.  That is still consistent with the ethos of reported incidents only (there is no restriction on who reports the incident, it doesn't have to be the drivers involved, it can be anyone including the moderator) and it means there are no surprises when the mod report is published.  I don't mind putting in the extra effort to try to identify all the incidents (but I may miss some which is why it is helpful to get reports from the drivers) because it ensures all the drivers have an opportunity to put forward their case which really helps the moderator to decide on a ruling.  Getting it right first time means appeals are less likely which means less work for the moderators in the long run. 

It is probably more important to do full moderating for the lower divisions but it does take more time and it is a big ask for the moderators.  It is feasible to do this in the 67 Works because the driving standards are the highest and we run PRO rules (max of 1 mistake per driver per race).  That means less incidents to moderate.

For this series I would encourage drivers to avoid heated arguments.  If you can resolve your differences with a simple apology then fine.  If you can't then please submit an incident report.  Moderating incidents is only part of the job.  The moderators also start servers, organize race posts select tracks, work out handicapping rules etc etc.  There isn't any fun in doing all that if there are no drivers to take part because squabbling on the forums has put people off.

Was going to split over a couple of posts,   but may as well combine into a single one so can easily be skipped :)


From a personal point of view, I'd prefer not to start Fri sessions earlier  [the current start-time for Fri is maybe a touch too early - but not a problem].  So, current time/or a bit later is good for me.    But,  IF the consensus is to start a bit earlier [15mins or so]  then I won't complain either;  I'd just have to delay eating or something!


Here here!  I was only going to show up for the F2 races,  as I'd gotten used to a quick driving fix on a Fri evening.  Quite surprised how fun the other classes can be too.
Although,  despite the Porsche being a dream to drive;  I've noticed that it's slow with me in it  (there again, so are at least CA71 & 69x!).






Race#1
Thanks for the unintentional assistance Billy! Although, having then slowed when the drama was unfolding before me;  I then very nearly lost out to the (probably unsighted) guys behind me!  That did not feel like help at the time :)

Was then some close running with Clive 'sharp-end'  & 'the-main-thing-is-he's-a-teammate!' DaveR.  It had briefly slipped my mind about relatively-duff chassis being used;  although breezing past [to expectation of losing it again soon after] made it seem as if Clive had forgotten about 6th gear or something :)

For me,  some good/close running; trying hard to not be a danger,  but at the same time not just rolling over too easily.   It seemed at times that me/Dave could slipstream to try to edge away from Clive, but I was probably the weak link there.
Later, I could see that there were a couple of cars catching our group;  although it's probably true to say that I was likely to have been slowing our leading group down.

Afterwards, was somewhat surprised to see Cookie finished 2nd.  I think Prib must also have been caught out by goings-on during the last lap or so.  Luckily for me there was not 1 more lap!

Yeah - I was particularly lucky;  but also - maybe the handicaps are working exactly as intended! Quite pleased to have shaved nearly 1sec of previous PB.


Should have been a Brabham :)   Although,  it seemed that iGor was just refusing to permit that car to be used, as it was greyed out.   However, a Matra was offered - but from re-checking the race post I decided to not take that & connect manually/without iGor;  particularly as it looked as if Billy had managed to get in there with the trusty BT23!


Race#2
No idea;  but maybe that was the case.  I just used the same lucky Mosport setup that I found for all the other races. Only difference that I may have tried adjusting top gear so as to not rev too high.  I don't know the 69x machines;  had no idea what was going to be a good laptime'  although it became clear quite quickly that it was not going to be mine! Having said that,  was quite pleased to have knocked 10seconds off my PB from the previous night.


Yeah - I just screwed that up somewhat.  At the time,  I honestly thanked you when we did not hit (i.e. when you were not there for me to collect).   I was just aware that I was way slower & the only time where things seemed to be going more my way were with heavy braking.


Thanks again for being more aware than me.  I was clearly going to use some conjured-up masterful slow-corner technique;  but there were apparently no credits left in the account.


Yeah - I'm usually asked if I have a race with my clearly-single virtual friends.  Sometimes, they just don't understand :)


Snap!  No real prior interest in GT/CA71 [had to install that as I had an invite to turn up & no other event on!] or even 69x for that matter.
But has been fun so far.   


This probably sounds quite disrespectful,  but also no interest/comprehension of setup work.  I've read some idiot guides, but nothing sticks & I'm probably just too inconsistent anyway.   What works for me is trying to adjust my driving so I don't crash often whatever lucky setup I'm using.  Although,  it seems that they all drive basically the same,  but some cars don't deal with any stompy-pedal/wheel-sawing/sudden changes & prefer to eased gently; with some cars/mods just needing a little more time than others.
Basically, I change fuel levels; & rarely change top gear a couple of clicks / front tire pressures slightly. 

See - this is another reason why Lights/Works won't be calling anytime soon!   Basically,  I'm a fun runner & am happy with that.  But I'm generally trying not to be an accident magnet.

Cheers,
Dave.

Just to repeat, sorry again Dave.