SimRacing.org.uk

Season 26, Formula Two trophy, Round 1, Hockenheim

THIS POST IS FOR BOTH THE LIGHT & HEAVY RACES

The opening round of the Formula Two trophy finds us back at Hockenheim. Using the 1967 layout the track has some long fast straights through the forest and a tricky, twisty stadium section.

The series will be run on two separate grids; The Lights (on T7) & the Heavies (on UKGPL 3). Please ensure you join the correct race.

IMPORTANT CHANGE - Drivers have been allocated to the grids as below
LIGHTS
Arf, Cookie, Dean Logan, Doni Yourth, Evil, Greg T, Marco, Natan, Fulvio, Badblood, Billy, Boggy & Il Lupo
RACE ON UKGPL3

HEAVY
Phil Thornton, Piero Mercaldo, Rainier, Raoni, Robert Fleurke, Roberto Teso, Ronnie, Samb, Turkey Machine, Iestyn, Dave Curtis, Rog, Maddog, & Walter
RACE ON UKGPL_T7


ONE reset is allowed but the Shift R must be followed by a Stop & Go in the pit lane within TWO laps. If you Reset on the last lap a 30 second time penalty will be awarded. Drivers must complete 50% of the race distance to score.

Race List = IGOR
LIGHT
Server = UKGPL3
IP = ukgpl3.dyndns.org
HEAVY
Server=UKGPL_T7_2
IP = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 19-01-2014
Time = 21:00 UK time (21:00 GMT)
Track = Hockenheim (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/tracks/Hockenheim/)
Race length = 20 Laps
Variant = 1967 Formula 2
Damage Model = Intermediate
Qualifying time = max. 30 minutes
Password: see above (#post_event_password)
Replays available here (http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/inc_replaysS26_js.aspx)

GPL F2 Mod: The initial release of the F2 mod will be used. The mod can be found here (http://http://www.f2legends.net/F2Downloads.htm)

The Driver list, Championship Table and series rules can be found here: Formula Two Trophy (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=425&theme=6)

The full time drivers can start to practice as soon as the server is available.  Reserve drivers can also join as soon as the server becomes available but must leave the server with 35 minutes of qualifying left, for a total of 5 minutes; this will allow any remaining full timers to join.  If there is enough space on the grid, the reserve drivers will be able to rejoin when there are 30 mins of qualifying left.

Please restrict chat to pit messages including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

Moderating The red zone will be fully moderated for lap 1 only. For this event the red zone will be from the start to the exit of the Ostkurve.

Other moderation will be on reported incidents only.  However any incidents that occur in the red zone that are not reported by the drivers will be reported by the moderator.  This will allow all affected drivers the opportunity to present their case before the incident is moderated.  This should ensure there are no surprises when the moderator's report is published and hence appeals will be less likely.  If you haven't received a PM about an incident before the link below the results table is removed, you can be sure that you will not appear in the moderator's report.

Password: see above (#post_event_password)

ummm?  Friday 19th Jan??????

If I start the race on Friday I stand an outside chance of winning!

Please note that the intention is to run two grids by moving some drivers from the Lights to Heavy - as per the Registration thread. I will publish full details here in teh next day or so,

Smartypants... ;D

The series will now be split as follows
LIGHTS
Arf, Cookie, Dean Logan, Doni Yourth, Evil, Greg T, Marco, Natan, Fulvio, Badblood, Billy, Boggy, Il Lupo

HEAVY
Phil Thornton, Piero Mercaldo, Rainier, Raoni, Robert Fleurke, Roberto Teso, Ronnie, Samb, Turkey Machine, Iestyn, Dave Curtis, Rog, Maddog, & Walter

The split is roughly alphabetic, but splitting between Full time & reserves.

Does this mean I'm not in the same races as Clive, Dean, Axel, Arf, Doni and the rest of Lights?  ???

Looks like it - unless a bunch of 'natural' heavies suddenly sign up...

I would've thought it better, to put fast guys with fast, and we more sedate and civilized with those of similar ilk.  I'm only stopping in for a race or 2, so you other ilks may ponder, in your 'kettle of fish'. :cowboy:

I'll probably be the slowest of both grids, so not sure why I've been put in lights. I thought heavies was for the slower drivers.

Boggy

Hi ... so this is a Night race? SORRY my bad installed wrong track.

Er... nope. Standard Hockenheim - is the link bad?

Hi Badblood link is good, my bad for not following your links to tracks.

I get a bad link...

"Not Found

The requested URL /Hockenheim/ was not found on this server."

Have to say I'm disappointed not being able to race the likes of Clive, Dean and such...also alphabetically at the continent we work with last names, that way you keep the family members together as well and less confusion about first names...

Still I had preferred grids based on skill/ranking/previous results, but I'll accept it ofcourse, and I appreciate the work the mods do, it isn't easy to make decisions like this...

Hi confused here, will the lights who have been moved to Heavies have there own champ table or are we all just in Heavies? i voted Heavy to be in a group of my ability so hope i don`t spoil race for you light guys, sorry to say but i do not like mixed grids. Anyway see you guys on track.
 
Sorry if this sounds like a rant appreciate all the hard work you guys do organizing these races for us.

That's not what we signed up for.  :(

I'm assuming that the reasons are the sparse grids in heavies last season, and the 18-9 list in subscriptions for the new. If three are moved from Lights to Heavies, a 15-12 split should see a more equal server load. If we look at the results from the previous season, there are three drivers who, despite contesting almost every round, failed to podium. Invoking "...We reserve the right to move you into the correct division..." on those three would allow everyone else to race in the series they signed up for.

Don't help much, but I agree with everyone, including mod team :)    If only there were more participants/or some of them were not quite as good/consistent.

I must admit,  when I look at that heavy lineup - it does looks rather daunting & un-heavy like.   Although,  when I look at the Lights - that obviously does too!

So, from here, looks like a tough season already.

Still - will be good to get started; either like this or if there are some further re-arrangements.
In closing,  the efforts running this stuff are appreciated.

Cheers,
Dave.

I was a bit short of time yesterday & did not have a chance to explain the driver allocation.

First - ignore the fact that the Grids are called Heavy & Light. They are two roughly equal groups. The series was set up as Heavy & Light & too difficult to change.

There are too many registrations to have one grid. Last season drivers missed out on at least one race. What I want to achieve is two separate grids that are stable enough to run all season.

The second difficulty was that we had far more Light drivers than Heavy. There are various ways of splitting these up. Each grid has a similar amount of Full Time & Reserve drivers. There is a reasonable spread of ability in each group. The differences in speed are less with the Formula 2 Mod than some others. A few drivers like myself will be backmarkers in most races. Some of the middle ability drivers achieved some good qualifying & finishes last season.

This allocation is also easier to slot in new drivers who sign up mid-term.

The allocation is not perfect but I've tried to make it fair, workable so everyone can enjoy the series.

So how how many F2 champions at the end of the season 1, 2 or 4  ???

But it's not one series, it's two (with an arbitrary split), just scored commonly, somehow. Are points going to paid based on race position, or time, or a combination? What allowances will be made for hiccups on race server A that don't affect drivers on race server B?

If you feel the Heavy grid needs buffering, move some of the ones from the Lights who haven't shown the speed to challenge the front runners or the consistency to exploit their (for me, still quite frequent :P ) errors. With 27 registrations, a 15 Light/ 12 Heavy should allow for latecomers without issue.

The signup for this series explicitly contains the proviso "...We reserve the right to move you into the correct division..." without mentioning conditions or even reasons for that move, whereas changing the basic nature of this championship a few days before the off, nope, I'm not finding it there.

Are you the same Dave Curtis who posted a GPL Rank of -34000 the other day? That means we should all be scared of you!!! :laugh:

Er, it must have been someone else. Ahem.
I also have the  obviously the value was so high, it wrapped around somehow.   I'll blame my Pentium60!

From the silence I assume everyone else is not confused. Well I own up to being stupid. Does anyone know who they are racing against in terms of the championship. Is there one, two or what and how is it going to work from race to race in particular with handicapping thrown in?

We already have the Friday Trophy, which includes the F2 mod, for fun. With the first race approaching fast it really would be nice to know.

Hi   any clarification on this, and are fast drivers and slow drivers being moved to were they want to race, or is now set as groups we race in.
See you all on track.

When the F2 mod was made, it was created as something that everyone could comfortably drive.  These cars were where future F1 stars learned their trade - advanced trainers to perfect racing skills in.  They were popular in 1967, and they're popular here.   Perhaps it's been decided they are too popular here?

For clarification - the drivers have been split into two grids. One is called Light & one is called Heavy - they could be called Grid 1 & Grid 2 or A & B - there is no distinction for the ability of drivers.
This has been done so we have two sustainable grids over the course of the season - one  grid would probably mean that some people would miss out & it has not been possible to split the grids by driver ability.

Please check you join the correct grid - if you get it wrong you won't score any championship points.

The series will now be split as follows
LIGHTS
Arf, Cookie, Dean Logan, Doni Yourth, Evil, Greg T, Marco, Natan, Fulvio, Badblood, Billy, Boggy, Il Lupo

HEAVY
Phil Thornton, Piero Mercaldo, Rainier, Raoni, Robert Fleurke, Roberto Teso, Ronnie, Samb, Turkey Machine, Iestyn, Dave Curtis, Rog, Maddog, & Walter

Or check the Driver list in the Championship Table here: Formula Two Trophy (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=425&theme=6)

or is it a constant split?

Sorry for still being confused.

Does this mean there are two separate F2 championships, one on each grid?

If so within each F2 championship is their a separate championship for Light and Heavy drivers?

If not, regardless of handicapping, this is not looking like much fun for the original Heavy drivers?

We can do lots of things with the results - combining the results into one table, rotating the grids, having two separate championships...

As it stands we simply have two parallel championships. Two champions and a straight fight.

Let us see how it goes in terms of drivers turning up and we can take it from there.

And doing so after the fact will be easier than just moving three drivers who haven't proven (despite plenty of chances) they belong in the Lights down a division to even out the grids, and letting the 24 others race in the series that they voted on joining?

I just felt my motivation for this/these/whatever series plummet.

Even 24 drivers racing gives us a problem as you all voted for full time.

If people feel strongly that they want to race a mix of drivers then we can look at rotating the grids as we did with the Porsche championship a few seasons back.

Victim of its own success perhaps.

So why not do
- one Championship
with
- 2 grids rotating at every race
- combining the results into one table

At the end you can crown the best Heavy to Champ by its place on the table ;)

Sorry to sound like a whining kid but I'm with Dean on this one. The need to complete 50% distance to score points had already reduced my incentive to practice and now being informed I'm competing for half the F2 title puts into question whether its worth practicing at all?

Because Axl with the handicap system I simply don't see how combining results and/or rotating the grids can be done in a fair manner. There are just too many variables for it to be applied fairly over both grids every race. Even assuming the two mixed ability grids are equal, you would need the same number of drivers, finishers, penalties etc  every race to make it fair. Oh and no extra drivers joining mid season etc.

I'm amazed the heavy drivers are so resigned to this format. I need to get into their mind set and get on with it I suppose.

It is unfortunate that at Ukgpl, so many victims prefer to remain silent.  Last Season, there was a move to allow rule changes during the Season.  I thought this was recognized as a mistake.  You've all now been told the F2 championship points system, will be determined sometime later, and as the mood strikes.

There seems a lack of co-ordination, and concensus, amongst the Moderation team.  I don't think this F2 series has been properly thought out.  Please fix it, before you kill it. 

When we get a full grid, it will be a problem. This silly rejigging immediately before the off (with a PROMISE of more arguing to come) has probably put paid to that.  ::)


That is so not the issue.

I'm now proposing that all the "Light" drivers join one race (to be decided in chat beforehand), let the DQ's fall where they may for "joining wrong server" or whatever, go ahead and take away any points I may score towards a championship that I no longer care about. At least we can race against the people we signed up to race against, which is why I'm here in the first place.

As drivers register quite late we have to maintain the flexibility to run the series for the benefit of most people. This is not a 'rule change'. I have NOT said that the series regulations will be determined later. Bill has been very clear about how he intends to run it. What I have said is that we may need to look at the way the series is shaped dependent upon how many drivers turn up.

Our main concern, as always is to produce full grids that can be entertaining for as many drivers as possible.

If you have a 'fix' in mind please feel free to enunciate it.

Noted your proposal Dean and I'll put it to Bill. I think that you misconstrued my point above - if all the lights want to drive against each other (which is what you signed for) it isn't possible on one grid.

I only see 16 full time votes for Lights, and only 18 total Lights votes? Any latecomers can be signed up as reserves.

If you want to see more balanced grids (your stated justification for this whole exercise), re-assigning a couple is well within your rights as admin, obeys the rules as they were laid out, maintains the nature (and appeal) of this championship, and solves this whole thing now.

Any "But I don't wanna drive in Heavies..." can be "Talk to the hand"-ed. They agreed to that possibility when they voted/registered.

The fix would be to do what was expected, and what most drivers signed up for.  It has been enunciated hereabouts.  My concern beyond F2, is rules including points scoring, which are unclear to competitors before the off.  It currently sounds like they are also unclear to F2 staff!  This is not what we pay you for.  Flexible rules, according to conditions or whim, kill a competitive spirit.  Fix the F2 rules before race 1 please.

Exactly how much do you pay us?  ::)

Not enough!  I'm sorry to get involved Paul, and make myself unpopular.  There is discontent at what some would call irregularities, in the way the racing is being presented.  Some will follow meekly - some will kick up a fuss.  It's a strange way of letting you know, Moderating matters, and your ideas and choices are important :) to us.

As it stands we are running two separate championships - this is Bill's show. If that proves unworkable we may have to re-adjust but that could not happen before race 2. Hence the reference to sorting things out later. Not ideal but nor is 27 drivers for a 20 driver grid.

As I said, let's see how many turn up tomorrow.

I like pie.

As a point of clarification - there are two separate grids. The scores are not being combined.

We can argue infinitum about different structures. There is no simple fix that will suit everyone.
I have allocated the grids according to what I believe is in the best interest of all the drivers that have registered.
If you do not want to compete on this basis then sorry - it is what it is.

Just popping by to state my tuppence worth. I voted for the "Light" option because most consider me a fast driver (sometimes I am, granted! :D). I've never driven these cars in anger, and look forward to it, but I don't mind which grid I'm on, as I know the driving standard is quick on both and that's the challenge I relish.

I hear no quarrel with running two 65s grids that are run as separate championships, nor with two grids for 67s races. If it so happens that the F2 races will be run in tandem, then so be it. As it stands, everybody will get to race, which is what UKGPL is about. Would you rather the grids were combined and you not be able to get onto one server? That'd be a bit embarrassing...

In my very honest opinion, the grids are evenly matched based on driver ability. So let's put up or shut up and prove it on the track. Last one to the line's a sissy! ;)

There you go boys - hope that is clear, two parallel fights. Lets get on track.

don't call me a sissy

Pork pie, apple pie, meat pie, pie for life?

He said "last one to the line" not "Last one over the line"  ;D

Just call me a 'sissy'  ;)

Mods - I'm not on to muddy the waters, just to speak to one person...


Dean - you can only mean myself, Natan and Marco by this. I find your own definition of what is 'good enough' for Lights curious. 'Failure to podium' (from a prevous post by you on the matter) means you have to be Heavy? Ignoring the fact I got one P4 and a couple of P5/6s last season that would be that the Lights division 'should' be you, Evil, Samb and Ronnie, and I assume from your definition (and no disrespect intended) Phil and Cookie just cos they lucked out and got 1 podium? 6 drivers....

I know there are some fast new guys out there, but they haven't proved they are committed to the series *yet*, so I don't think they don't deserve to be in Lights any more than me/Natan/Marco. And I certainly don't think we're so slow we shouldn't be there.

I will freely admit that F2 is one series where I have struggled to setup the car, and don't expect to be near the pace of the fastest Light drivers. Equally though, if I were to go down a division (just as I did in 65s last season), I'd be one of the fastest. Don't get me wrong, I'd love it - I have discovered its much more of a buzz competing for the lead than 5/6/7/8th place (not that these are not fun), and in the company you have inferred, I'm sure we'd have a great time...

...I just don't think that we're the waste of space you are repeatedly calling us. So please stop.

Arf

May I first add that I have only driven an F2 car on two tracks, so I'll only be competitive the times I drop in where I have/find a decent setup. I then tried to upload to GPLrank and it messed up my 67 rank.. might have to create a new player? Guessing GPLRA wasn't updated for F2 67.

I can see the rationale behind the 2 splits by alphabet to one grid when guys drop out.. it mainly being that the scoring will be easier to re-amalgamate.

The fear Dean has (and I would share) is that gaps will form between the drivers of varying ability on each server, which is less fun than a good battle amongst competitive drivers. The F2 cars aren't that fast however, so I don't know how much that will affect this.

For competition, it would be best to split it on ability lines, and as the grids reduce there would be say 10 on each server competing for the 2 titles. This would be best if it is thought that attendance will be high enough to not return to one server later in the year.

Myself, I am only able to drop in on the occasional race in the next few months most likely, hence I picked Light reserve. If it's only 1 grid from the off, then tough on the reserves (for the sake of the championship, I would drop out), who can't commit to the series anyway. But another problem with that is if there's a wide variation of ability, where a split would be better (Heavy and Light) anyway. The skill in moderating is to make it even in such circumstances/given the evidence available.. so I deduce that with this new solution, the expectation is of 1 server later on in the year, with one champion at the end of it.

So it all comes down to competition vs. titles/championships, and expectations of attendance really.

At this point it is what it is and we would expect grids to be fairly solid - if not we will all end up on one grid anyway and then there will be plenty of action!

Let us just have some fun.

Never said that (or even meant to imply it), so you stop, please. I offered an option as to the criteria they could use when making the selection. The fact that you failed to podium last season, despite eight attempts, is a clear, undeniable, data point, and that's all it was offered as.

This whole thing started because of too many entrants for the Lights... wait no, we're still not even at 19 including reserves, so it must have been not enough entrants for the Heavies (where our moderators race  ::) ), who were feeling lonely on grids of as few as 3 last season. So the moderators are faced with a choice:

1) Move a couple of drivers down to even out the grids. Unfortunately, some may feel slighted by this (see above).

2) Emasculate this entire championship by throwing out the rules that they made and announced and everyone agreed to by signing up for this series, split the grids in a completely arbitrary manner, and give us FOUR champions instead of two (and we all know that the more people win, the more each win means. I used to love watching everyone at sports day get a trophy, it made mine so much more special).

You can do it by statistics, e.g. podiums/previous championship points, or a feel of the pace and consistency of each driver (so that you end up with two 'bulks' of drivers or competitive areas). You can even do it by who wants to challenge the faster grid from the rear, or get a chance to front run in the second one (both depend on the motivation of the driver and can be great learning processes), or take it into account when deciding. The 50% and scoring rule puts more emphasis on consistency than pace and can make a one grid situation more competitive (I assume that's why it was voted on) for a championship run-in.

I would fall into the original conclusion (move a few back from Light to Heavy, creating two healthy championship fights), even if it meant grids of 10 or so on both at season end (as both would be competitive, with space for extras). If I am wrong and numbers will fall below 19 mid-season, then one grid it'll end up being and one champion at the end.

Can't be a Sissy, didn't even get to the line    :(

Great fight with Evil and Marco and then... disco!! :-[

Seems not my series, even on my home track >:(
had a good start but was kicked out entering the Ostkurve as 3rd, the mayhem after the Ostkurve finished my race behind the fence...

As suspected a "catch as catch can" format!

Thoroughly enjoyed that. Until my internet conked out with 12 laps still to go. I'm getting seriously fed up with my connection. Fine throughout most of S25, but ever since Estoril, I've never had a stable connection.

Not sure it's worth carrying on at this rate. Not until I relocate anyway........

...and both incidents caused by me I'm afraid....although for me it was just one horribly long incident. I got away cleanly, unlike poleman Marco, but I knew that I wouldn't hold the position, as this was always going to be a drafting contest. Dean was the person who drafted me as we went up the first straight, but not as quickly as I thought he would, leaving me with a tricky decision as we came up to Ostkurve. However, the car flicked a little as I broke and downshifted and flicked me to the left a little, which was enough to send me towards you. I do feel quite guilty for that, but I shall let the mods decide if it was reasonable for you to expect to get past me so near the corner - I had to take the line for the corner....

The bump we had meant I lost the line I was expecting for the corner, and as my left wheels went on the grass. I didn't see Natan come up beside me as I regained control, and straightened up and tried to get back up to speed. I feel really bad for everyone who was affected by the big incident, and Natan in particular, who wasn't doing anything wrong.

Later in the race my engine blew up, and I couldn't remember if I had used a reset on L1, so I retired. Probably should have driven on and risked the DQ...

Apols to all affected

Arf

Sorry to see you disappear once again in my mirrrors. You just were mixing in with the fights at the front. Tough luck, Sam :( I'll add my race report later. Need some fresh air.

edit:

Just tried to survive and lost positions, but everyone made mistakes and then suddenly Piero and me were at the front. We lost time changing positions, Raoni caught up really fast, but then touched with Piero I think...on Lap 13 Piero and me touch at the end of the backstraight. I'm holding my wheel straight but move ever so slightly to the right, when Piero moves to the left (too soon), and we crash. Really sorry that that had to happen, I think we both should have given more room to eachother...Piero on the roof, I could continue even though the car felt strange, like a bent suspension. Again trying to survive/finish profiting from other's bad luck or mistakes, I find myself in the lead in the final lap. With the ill handling and Roberto's pressure I run wide in the last corner, but just can hold him of...lucky win...

Shame for the incident I had and others' misfortune, but thanks for racing all and mods for organizing ;) Great comeback Roberto, and very consistent Ronnie who ran mostly without a tow I think, and still stayed close! Also congrats to Marco, Dean and Joe in the other race!

 ???WHY there are 2 pilots and team rank ???

Two separate championships Marco - Lights stay Light and Heavies stay Heavy and never the twain shall meet!

24 drivers can't go on one grid :(

So we stay separate... unless we have a shootout at the end of the season!

Race was pretty much a disaster. Cookie was slow leaving the Ostkurve and I was going around 20km/h faster but as I passed him I don't think he saw me and although I tried the grass we warped together and off. After starting again got together with Billy and was looking forward to a draft or two when Doni decided to inspect my engine from behind. Last lap Dean bumped me off at the same place as he whizzed through and I had tried to leave room too! Only bright spot was Mini making the podium. :proud:

Hehe, step aside old man.  The baton has been passed; your work is done ;)

Miniblood is dead, long live Blood/Newblood ?!

Yes, profuse apologies for that 'nudge', Paul.  I slowed way early but not near enough.  And I'd already fallen on my sword avoiding you on Lap01!  LOL!  Something about a Lotus 48 at this track?  oooOOOooo!

I ran a tall 1st gear and it killed me on the start.  Never really recovered.  The gear was excellent in the stadium for a quick lap but a poisoned pill.  I'll not make that mistake again.  (Famous last words...)

Got involved in the massive Lap01 jamup but cruised back to ultimately dice with Natan and Clive.  Good fun but I wasn't about to take any risks on that last lap.  Settled for P6 and lucky to have it.

Wasn't a problem mate but I was very cautious on cold tyres/full tanks...

Why are you anywhere near the racing line when you're a full minute behind your nearest competitor on the final lap??

You should have backed off (only 15-20 mph or so would have been plenty) on the straight leading to Estkurv instead of leaving it until we're entering a line-critical corner at full blast. A closing speed of almost 60mph left me NO time to react. I went where I was committed to going.

Btw: there was no contact on my replay, and your car jumped to the RIGHT. It must have been the vortex.

ok about pilots rank maybe it' s right , but about team rank it's very crazy solution.Blue mose racing are 4 pilots in  light, padova corse 1 pilot, NV racing 1 pilot. then it's easy to know which team will win.

Only the first two score Marco. Generally I think it will be Clive and myself as I suspect Doni and Mini may not make all the races and given my woeful form in F2 I need something to keep me going. It was very lonely last night :(

I had scrubbed off speed (in fact 40 mph so that you wouldn't meet me on the apex) and from my POV I wasn't anywhere near the racing line which was why I was surprised when we touched. I was acutely aware of the position and if I had wanted to interfere I would have made sure I took Marco and you out.... there was family interest and it was VERY tempting... Judging where you were going to catch me was pretty tricky but I kept wide and slowed gradually to make my intentions clear.

You need to take another look at the replay and if you look at the chase view or from my in-car view you will realise I wasn't anywhere near the racing line (if you take the groove as ideal), problem is, neither were you! You deliberately took a wider line which may well give you the fastest exit which is important when racing for position but you can't just ignore other cars on track. Joseph and Marco had no issues and when they passed me I WAS on the racing line. If you think I baulked you, report it. I would be interested to see your replay because on mine and the server replay my car jumps to the right AFTER you hit me. I didn't think it was great on your part and you clearly think the same of mine. All I can say is that I was thinking hard about the three of you and where I needed to be and you, seemingly, paid no regard to me whatsoever which is disappointing.

One thing to bear in mind is that I am slower for a reason - I can't control the car as well and you may well be able to corner way off line, I can't and although I am way behind the next guy that is not germane. I am still racing! although it might not be recognisable  ::)

Fact - there were 2x completely different races.
Further more,  it's F2  on a circuit with some fairly serious draftability,  so that probably also does funny things to results.

But a quick glance seems to show the entire Heavy qually times were quicker than the Lights;  also that the total race time for completed race distance was less.

As I stated;  probably not directly comparable  [just mentioned for fun!]    but slightly interesting?  :)



As for the race,  too much contact  :(
And was either lonely [come back!] or busy.   Seemingly endless stream of cars reeling me in/overtaking me.
Should have taken the Lola - I couldn't even beat my best time from the last Heavy race here.


My lawyer says I should probably look at replays before I comment further...

But thanks all;  was still mostly enjoyable.


Cheers,
Dave.

At the moment of "contact" you weren't. 1 second previously you were. While JW and MM were passing you, you were right on it.


The fact you raise that possibility (even jokingly) disturbs me, TBH.


You were on the groove/racing line all the way in the braking zone, and only maintained your outside line while slowing, frankly, a dangerous amount. 60mph closing speeds are completely unnecessary and unsafe.


Like when you're in the lead draft pack on the final lap of a league race? Yeah, it's important, and it's really nice not to have to worry about some guy who's getting lapped and a is a full minute behind his nearest competitor not wanting to be, maybe, a minute and FIVE SECONDS behind his nearest competitor at the finish line, because that makes so much difference to everything.


Didn't you claim twice above that you weren't on the racing line?


I wasn't going to, as it didn't appreciably affect the outcome (I'd kind of expected an apology from you for interfering with the lead battle, but it looks like that's not happening). As you think I bear some responsibility for this, it'll be reported.


And I'm just telling you that you made some bad choices.


I paid you as much respect as someone who is a full minute behind their nearest competitor and is going a lap down is due from someone who's in the lead draft pack on the final lap of a league race.


Didn't there used to be a place for racers who aren't as familiar with the F2 mod to, you know, try and come to grips with it? I seem to remember that...  ::)


At that point in your race, the track is just the short way back to the garage. It's over. Get out of the way of the people who ARE still racing. Thank you.

Dean, calm down!

I understand your displeasedness with the situation in F2 and I am with you!

But the incident with Paul is IMHO not his fault at all, maybe not the perfect line, but we say "keep your line" when lapped, to be predictable!

I looked at the situation and can't understand your reaction, seeing the slower car in front you had all the time to choose another line.
Paul had 3 fast cars coming from behind and tried to stay out of the way, of course at this speed there will be 3 different passing points...

Our rules say:
"The overtaking driver has a responsibility to ensure he makes a clean pass."

I'm not the one who said anything. I wasn't going to report this. But when someone says I took them out, and I view the situation quite differently, I'm going to say something.


Completely unrelated, let's keep it that way.


"Being predictable" does not include slowing 60mph from race speed while on the racing line.


What reaction? When I realized how much he was slowing, I had no time left to react to anything. I took the line that I was committed to.


He was on the racing line all the way into that corner. He says so himself in the above post! That's not "out of the way".


On my replay, there is no contact. Therefore, clean pass from what I can see.

His car jumps RIGHT even though the "contact" occurred on that side. Isn't that enough of a WTH? to give someone pause before accusing another racer of taking them out?

I did, which is rather the point.

In reply to Dave Curtis, Newblood actually sounds pretty appealing! I think that shall be my new title  ;D

Some people have entirely too much time on their hands.

As to make posts like that? Apparently so.

I have just  read all of this  ::)

give 50% points on each grid then normal points and merge champ standings when it goes to one grid. Its all relative.

Do you know what I like about ukgpl.

I can race 80 odd cars over 7ish mods on 500+ tracks and it cost me next to nothing. I appreciate the time the mods give, for nothing, to organise races/championships, just to get a volley when its not all perfect.

Rfactor is available for those who would prefer to pay for their racing.

Put it into perspective people and chill.  :D

The overhead view may be instructive.

Point of contact on Dean's client replay
(http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/images/dl_poc.jpg)

Point of contact on Server replay
(http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/images/serv_poc.jpg)

Client replay two frames on
(http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/images/dl_pastc.jpg)

It is fairly clear that it is the collision box that takes hold here. My car jumping to the right is further on and is a result of the overlapped collision boxes.

I didn't (and don't) have a problem with being bumped off - it happens in online racing but a little more mutual respect would be appreciated. I can't race with you but I feel that I have the right to be on the racetrack with you. I may not be fast, it does not mean that I am not serious. That is what I would like you to respect. Doesn't feel like you do right now. Hope I am wrong in this, at least.

I'm not seeing contact there.


Nor there.


What does that even mean?


My replay shows no contact between our cars. The server replay shows no contact between our cars. Your car does something quite strange AFTER I've passed you, when our cars are further apart than at the supposed "contact" point you identify above. How am I responsible for that?


Telling someone what they did wrong (and you did, IMO, you and your car had no business being in that section of track at all, and sure as heck not at 60mph off the pace) in the hopes that it will help them to improve is respect.

As far as the on-track respect goes, "I paid you as much respect as someone who is a full minute behind their nearest competitor and is going a lap down is due from someone who's in the lead draft pack on the final lap of a league race.", which, if you're a "serious" racer, you have to agree is little to none, a "sorry coming thru gaaaaaannnngggwaaaaayyyy" and I will not apologize for it.

If you don't know what the collision box is then you had no business being on track at all. The cars do not have to graphically 'touch' to have a collision. The collision box is the invisible outline which is slightly bigger than the graphical representation of the car which GPL uses to model collisions. You need to leave more space.

Where do you suggest that I should have been. Nobody else had an issue and they passed me when I WAS on the line. It is just that they do not believe they have a God given right to 100% of the track. Some others might learn from this but you are too arrogant to listen and frankly, you are not worth the effort.

Of course,  you'll probably still/always (affectionately)  be Mini to Blood senior...

(And make the tea of course)

Dean...  Dean...  Dean...

I throw out the bait and you snap it up.  Read you like a book.  :)

And that tea was VERY nice!

Just my tuppence, but that looks like warp contact exacerbated the potential contact between the cars. Dean is correct in that it looks like there is no contact according to the pictures, however these cars don't need to be touching pixel-to-pixel in order to show contact in the game. There have been many instances in my history with UKGPL of contact where there appeared to be no contact, this is mainly attributed to warp however sometimes collision boxes do cause the contact and make you go "WTF was that?" in response.

Quick apology while I remember - to the dude who's race I nearly ruined at T1 in a perilously ill-timed rejoin I apologise. I wanted to boot the throttle to kick the back-end round and the damn thing never kicked!

Re: lapping slower cars, IMHO every race has to be taken individually and on its own merits and pitfalls. At Zandvoort 66 race just gone I was careful to try and stay consistent in my lines when being lapped (save for the last lap penultimate corner screw-up), and I add that to experience when racing other cars and being a bit more predictable to not weave. Hockenheim is a track conducive to slipstreaming and overtaking, and when racing other drivers that are quite evenly matched the action can be a bit intense, but if all are sensible it can be very fair. Iestyn and I had a 7 lap battle between us until I cocked it up into a corner and fell way back.

As an aside, Paul I'm sure now knows that with a significant speed differential between the two cars that if he's in that position again to stay on one side of the track if at all possible. That can only be chalked up to experience.

See you on track. :)

I know what the collision box is. What I was looking for was a logical explanation of how it "takes hold" AFTER the cars have passed and in the complete OPPOSITE direction than one (with a Mechanical Engineering degree) would expect.


Already covered in my first post on this subject (thanks for paying attention):



Oh, they are, just not the lessons you think they're learning.


And you were the one talking about respect?


And I hope you feel as clever and helpful as you've been here.  :thumbup2:

Dean,

We are never going to agree. I am just going to move on but two points.

The crash boxes in GPL are notoriously badly modelled and the resulting crashes are often not realistic. You can see this type of collision on many replays.

You are quite right, I should not have posted that. For that, you have my apology.

 I think that the dubbed pilots must give way

My bad! Hope to address something about that in the F2 mod update. I'll serve my punishment and be a Dino driver untill the issue is sorted ;) .

The F2 modders did a great job. Hopefully you will look also at the draft-effect, like 69X is now compared to the original 69...but that's just my opinion/wish...

As a student engineer, I can tell you that on the matter of slipstream / drafting, I support our decision fully to make the effect last longer to the extent that we did. I am aware that it feels arcade to some, yet it is as true to reality as we can make it. I was involved when we sifted through piles and piles of digital paperwork to come up with the most realistic effect, back in 2006 or 2007. There has been an endless thread over at Race Sim Central when it was still around, where the origins and effect was discussed in great lenght. Unfortunately that is all gone now, but please remember how Peter Gethin got his first (and only) win. Before racing was about cheating the air but about defeating the air, drafting was often your biggest tool. Still, you need a good car to take advantage of it, as you will find out driving the McLaren M4A or Cooper T84 :) .

Your work is very much appreciated Tom. Now fix the damn crash box!  ;D

;D

I can remember the debates about the slipstream at the time. Sad that all the RSC info is now gone.

I also thought that the collision boxes had a mod? Is this 65 I am thinking of? I.e. to match the smaller 65 cars and not the original 67s. Could we make the boxes the car or slightly smaller? This could account for lag contact and warp.

The slipstreaming was fun.. I liked it in F2 and noticed it worked from at least 100 yards back. I would be surprised if it was reduced in length, but I can't remember what 66 races were like (that was reduced from 69). Now I need to see what it's like in 69x! I have to applaud the wingless 69x cars so far from what I've driven of them.

Apologies to Piero for contact on the last lap stadium entry. Car infront went off with a lockup, I followed his line and passed under braking on the outside, and tried to take the middle line to not go off and also leave space on the inside. This was the corner on the track I was least comfortable with (bad gearing didn't help), so perhaps you expected me to be faster here.

Moderation now published.