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UKGPL => UKGPL Races => Topic started by: Billy Nobrakes on February 26, 2014, 10:38:55 PM +0000



Title: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Billy Nobrakes on February 26, 2014, 10:38:55 PM +0000
THIS POST IS FOR BOTH GRIDS

Round 4 of the Formula 2 series, stays in Belgium at the classic Spa Francorchamps circuit. A new “Spa 67” track is in the pipeline but a little too early for this season.

The series will be run on two separate grids;  Group A (on UKGPL3) & Group B(on T7). Please ensure you join the correct race.

Drivers have been allocated to the grids as below
Group A
Arf, Cookie, Dean Logan, Doni Yourth, Evil, Greg T, Marco, Natan, Fulvio, Badblood, Billy, Boggy, Il Lupo & Newblood.
RACE ON UKGPL3

Group B
Phil Thornton, Piero Mercaldo, Rainier, Raoni, Robert Fleurke, Roberto Teso, Ronnie, Samb, Turkey Machine, Iestyn, Dave Curtis, Rog, Maddog, & Walter
RACE ON UKGPL_T7


ONE reset is allowed but the Shift R must be followed by a Stop & Go in the pit lane within TWO laps. If you Reset on the last lap a 15 second time penalty will be awarded. Drivers must complete 50% of the race distance to score.

Handicaps will not apply for this race.

Race List = IGOR
Group A
Server = UKGPL3
IP = ukgpl3.dyndns.org
Group B
Server=UKGPL_T7_2
IP = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 2 March 2014
Time = 21:00 UK time (21:00 GMT)
Track = Papyrus original
Race length = 11 Laps
Variant = 1967 Formula 2
Damage Model = Intermediate
Qualifying time = max. 30 minutes
Password: see above (#post_event_password)
Replays available here (http://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/inc_replaysS26_js.aspx)

GPL F2 Mod: The initial release of the F2 mod will be used. The mod can be found here (http://http://www.f2legends.net/F2Downloads.htm)

The Driver list, Championship Table and series rules can be found here: Formula Two Trophy (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=425&theme=6)

Please restrict chat to pit messages including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

Moderating The red zone will be fully moderated, the red zone will be from the start to the exist of Malmedy. Other moderation will be on reported incidents only or at the Moderators discretion.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Ronniepeterson on March 02, 2014, 09:01:09 PM +0000
T7 server  ::)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Cookie on March 02, 2014, 09:53:06 PM +0000
Thanks Marco extreme fair driving!!! :P


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: EvilClive on March 02, 2014, 09:55:52 PM +0000
Thought I should report a huge bar on the latency throughout this qually and race, well as far as the race went for me that is.

Started 8th on grid and was up to 4th as we approached La Source on lap 2 and it had been easy, just cruied up onto the tail of the leading trio and the Brabham was feeling absolutely stable and fast against those Matras. Then one of the leaders tripped over another under braking and two cars flew about throwing my latency bars wild!1 I can only surmise that one of them bounced back my way because I was suddenly flipped over and unable to escape from the server no matter how many keys or buttons I pressed!! Apologies to anyone who came across a car at La Source lying in the track, I was really trying my best to quit!!!



Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Cookie on March 02, 2014, 10:07:03 PM +0000
Yes Clive, Arf and Marco were warping crazy what I saw.
I had no issues except Marco's blocking...


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Doni Yourth on March 02, 2014, 10:20:56 PM +0000
Impossible to tell for certain from my replay cap as I had bad, bad warping almost all day.  My latency bar was way higher than normal and fluctuating.  I won't be making any rash statements here and now but my cap shows no fault on my part for two incidents.  I'm a bit alarmed to note Cookie's mention of Marco blocking.  :(

Must see the server replay.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Arf Arf Arf on March 02, 2014, 10:24:23 PM +0000
Yup, my bars were going crazy then calming down for a bit before going off on one again. At the start only a couple of cars were warping, so I didn't think it was me. However after the debacle at Eau Rouge I got a fairly good lead, and settled down to keep it clean and consistent. Had one or two less than smooth moments, which must have let Marco into my draft. I started to think I might have been warping when he just took station behond me and followed me round - was it strategy, or was he just scared to pass me?? Looked like strategy when he left it til late on the last lap, and won by 0.7 secs. In reality it was quite processional, but I was happy to keep things consistent.

WD to Marco and Natan for the podiums, and everyone else that finished.

Arf


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: garethhall on March 02, 2014, 10:26:50 PM +0000
Thanks to Paul for sorting me out at short notice, grats to cookie and to podium.

Edit: I would also like to thank Arf for being 1/100th of a sec faster than me in qually.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Arf Arf Arf on March 02, 2014, 10:48:30 PM +0000

after the debacle at Eau Rouge I got a fairly good lead, and settled down to keep it clean and consistent.


Correction - after the T1 incident I had a great couple of laps dicing with Cookie, and with Marco not too far behind. Cookie had an incident at La Source on Lap 2 or 3 which gave me a comfortable lead, as it affected Marco too, and killed Clive. Cookie, I hope it wasn't the warp you mentioned that caused that?

I also noticed Clive's comment about being unable to escape from the race - I had that in the praccy server immediately before the race - never experienced that before.... was that the same server that we raced on?



Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: GregT on March 02, 2014, 10:52:58 PM +0000
I don't know exactly what happened at Eau Rouge. It looked like the two cars in front of me touched and one or both went into the rail on the left. The right side looked perfectly clear when instantly a car appeared in the same place as mine perpendicular to the track. I was launched high into the sky. I'd guess at least one of the cars bounced off the rail on the left and back into me. I have no clue what happened after that.

Events at one point seemed to be conspiring to end my race early. After the reset and stop and go, I caught Dean at Les Combes. He spun and unfortunately I choose to go around on the outside and narrowly missed him, spun, and barely kept it off the rail. That would have been easy had I went inside and saved me a lot of time. I had contact with another car but I can't remember where or when. I was worried that would wreck or damage the car. Clive caught me a little off guard sitting on his top in the middle of La Source but I managed to get around him without much trouble. After that the second half was event free and pretty solitary.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Robert Fleurke on March 02, 2014, 11:07:38 PM +0000
Quali seemed to be run mostly solitary, and after a 32.7 I thought Roberto and Piero would need a tow to beat it, but Roberto managed a good lap in clean air and that 32.4 was a great late polelap!

Had a good start but gameplan was staying in leaddraft and make a move in the last lap, preferable in/towards Blanchimont. So I let Roberto and Piero fight it out, and then Jethro got caught out into the hairpin, I thought he wanted to pass me and I slowed abit at the inside line, miscommunication I think...

Ronnie made a good comeback but ran out of laps to get to the lead group, tough luck mate, but solid run ;)

In the final lap I tried to make a move into Blanchimont, Piero and me on the inside, and Roberto losing the lead on the outside. Went by Roberto who made a countermove to the inside, and I had to check up for Piero who went in the grass. Towards the hairpin tried to outbrake Piero but lost it and just was able to get P3 in front of Ronnie ;)

Congrats Roberto and well done Piero, well deserved :)



Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: BadBlood on March 02, 2014, 11:15:28 PM +0000
Sorry about the latency issues. That was on UKGPL3 which only hosts the F2's. Don't think it has had any problems before but my local internet has been quite slow recently. Usable but slower than normal.

If the same happens next time, maybe we should swap to UKGPL8?

As for the race, kept my nose clean and that got me up to 6th. Was chasing Bill with a faster Doni behind me. Wasn't trying too hard to keep my team mate behind but I didn't want to lose Bill and was surprised it took Doni so long to get past. Planned to use him to draft up to Bill and launch a sneak attack under tow... but sadly forgot about driving my own lap and was so busy watching them overcooked it and flipped over. Lonely after that. Enjoyed it though.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: dave curtis on March 02, 2014, 11:24:43 PM +0000
Well, I joined what I thought was the correct server & then noticed Clive was in there.  Uh-oh! Better get out as I'm in the wrong server;   but when I joined the correct server he was still in there...;)

Was going to take the Brabham as have been in that here before;   but with it looking like a ms7 spec race;  thought I'd give that a go instead.  At least there would be a personal fastest lap whatever time I posted!

So while I could not get the same setup to work too well at Zolder,  here it seemed to work out ok; for me/my expectations anyway.

Very pleased to have ended up with a provisional 5th.   Was happy enough with 6th place,  but was handed a place so I took it.


I'm still of the opinion that this series seems to be comprised of Lights (both grids) & then me.    

I think, I managed to make the couple of places without an overtake.  So, just plain lucky!


Cheers chaps.  Didn't see many other cars;  although there was a good tow going for a few laps so hopped on.

Dave.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Phil Thornton on March 02, 2014, 11:35:27 PM +0000
I was having a good battle with Ronnie until Jethro lost it at La Carriére and spun in front of me.  I managed to avoid him but ended up rolling over and needing a shift R.  Lost at lot of places and time but I got going and started to chase down Rog, Bernie and David.  Managed to get on terms and went through Masta side by side on a couple of occasions.  First time was good, second time I got too close to the grass (I was trying to leave plenty of room) and spun out.  Didn't damage the car so I got going again but on the last lap I came across Bernie recovering at Les Combes and I couldn't avoid him.  Took a second shift R which means I'm DQ'ed I'll have to report myself :(.

Some exciting moments (going through Masta side by side with David was cool) but a disappointing finish in the end. 


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Doni Yourth on March 03, 2014, 12:53:33 AM +0000
I've had a chance to view the server replay.  I'll again ascert that I was blameless in the two incidents in which I was involved.

The first, the T1 fracas on Lap01, it is clear that I've made up ground on Greg(he bogged off the line)and I have swept around Marco convincingly.  I have a substantial margin in terms of distance and speed at the time of collision.  While I won't say that MM turned into me, clearly, P2 was mine for the taking going into Eau Rouge.

The second, a collision on the Masta Straight is less clear.  While I easily had a run on Billy(4mph in hand), it seems he was reluctant to share the road and rather than give way, proceeded to pinch me off to the extreme left.  I can't imagine this was intentional since the risk is too high.  Still, he made no effort to allow a safe pass.  Two laps earlier, I had virtually a carbon-copy of this scenario with Paul and I had to veer off the road to miss him.  Guys...  Give it up and live to fight another day.  :(

Warp was horrible on the day.  It may well have played prominently in all incidents.  If this becomes SOP with the T7 server, there's hardly a lot of point in staging a race let alone participating.  It becomes a lottery.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: GregT on March 03, 2014, 02:50:19 AM +0000
I watched the server replay too. I had meant to save mine but I always seem to forget. I was curious as to what happened and what I might have done to avoid an accident. There wasn't much I could do. I didn't know what was behind me but I left room on my left in case there was somebody off my left rear. I was afraid to take my eyes off the track, Doni, and Marco. I could have slowed more but don't think I could have slowed enough to go around Doni. Had I tried I'd likely have been rear ended.

The server replay looked a little different than what I actually saw but very close. Does that really happen or am I deluding myself? I know I was sent skyward after the contact but it doesn't show that in the replay. I also noticed that the flagman at Malmedy doesn't seem to wave the flag in the server replay but I thought he flashed it just as I got to him when Boggy was driving away from a spin. He sure didn't give me a good warning.  When I saw the flag during the race I was at the point any sudden change in line, throttle, or brake was going to cause me to wreck. I came over the hill and had the choice to nail Boggy or hit the fence on his left. I bounced off the fence and back into him. Luckily we both appeared to get away without damage.

And I thought events were conspiring against me until I saw what happened to Doni and Clive. That was a very weird collision that flipped Clive. It appeared he had a few feet between him and the other cars.

After thinking about it a bit, I'm a little disappointed I didn't get to challenge the leaders for the win. I ran a higher 5th gear thinking I'd be slipstreaming some. I would have been better off had I left it the same as qualifying. I also need to practice some stop and go's. I didn't do that very quickly. That was the most difficult F2 race for me yet. It wasn't until lap 4 or 5 that I thought I had a chance to finish.

It was still good fun though. I appreciate it guys.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: bernie on March 03, 2014, 10:38:24 AM +0000
I was having a good battle with Ronnie until Jethro lost it at La Carriére and spun in front of me.  I managed to avoid him but ended up rolling over and needing a shift R.  Lost at lot of places and time but I got going and started to chase down Rog, Bernie and David.  Managed to get on terms and went through Masta side by side on a couple of occasions.  First time was good, second time I got too close to the grass (I was trying to leave plenty of room) and spun out.  Didn't damage the car so I got going again but on the last lap I came across Bernie recovering at Les Combes and I couldn't avoid him.  Took a second shift R which means I'm DQ'ed I'll have to report myself :(.

Some exciting moments (going through Masta side by side with David was cool) but a disappointing finish in the end. 

Sorry about the roadblock Phil I was following David into the corner , he took a tight line into the corner which caught me out , I had to brake hard to avoid him and lost the rear end causing me to spin , unfortunately  ended up facing the wrong way and having to spin turn to recover .   

will submit my report , sorry to finish your race in this way  :-[


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: BadBlood on March 03, 2014, 11:15:22 AM +0000
Interesting Doni. The pass at Masta that you are talking about surprised me because I expected you to pass on the right so I positioned the car left of centre and then you went for the left. I jinked right in response but you had hit dirt and lost momentum so round we went again. Why not take the right which is the natural line into the kink? I left plenty of room (and lifted) when you passed on the way down to Malmedy. Was not about not sharing the road so I would be interested to see your replay.

Learning opportunity for both of us possibly. I'll take a gander at my own one tonight and compare it to the server replay.

Sad about the warp issues. Not a lot I can do about it as the server itself is definitely blameless - this is definitely internet conditions and not something I can control. I suspect it is something to do with my local exchange which is the last leg for the internet traffic to my server as I have noticed a definite slowing down in Internet response over the last few weeks.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Billy Nobrakes on March 03, 2014, 01:42:25 PM +0000
Doni,
Re. our incident on the straight after Masta. the draft on the F2 it was obvious you could get past. I got a bit preoccupied with where your car was, so much so at the point of overtake I realised I was hogging the middle of the track. I didn’t know if you were left or right & so I kept a straight line. That was rather poor awareness on my part. You took the option of going left with your outside wheels on the grass & contact was made when you cut back in (slightly). In summary i don't think either of us were entirely blameless.
Sorry your race was effectively finished. A better outcome for me was to use your tow when you got past.
From the servers perspective my replay didn’t show any warp it was a full wheel to wheel contact.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: maddog on March 03, 2014, 03:52:30 PM +0000
Sad about the warp issues. Not a lot I can do about it as the server itself is definitely blameless - this is definitely internet conditions and not something I can control . . . .

T7 Server is also troublesome, and perhaps no longer giving it's moneysworth.  I'm not educated in such matters, but if it's routinely accessed by a number of users, and/or multi-purpose, are it's resource being drawn away during our races?  If so, you might request a reminder be sent to all users, to lay off usage on our race nights!  Threaten them with a drivers strike . . . umm, or something!  :blink:


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Ronniepeterson on March 03, 2014, 04:16:33 PM +0000
and just was able to get P3 in front of Ronnie ;)

After a hold up at the start (red zone so the mods can sort that out) I could not quite get back to you guys even though you gave me a chance with your three way scraping.  I saw you spin and recovering at the final corner but was still not close enough to take advantage on the last lap. Besides it would have been cruel if I had stolen your podium spot like that. Grats again to the three of you.



Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Doni Yourth on March 03, 2014, 05:18:57 PM +0000
I'm not saying that I was blameless in the two incidents on the Masta between Billy and Paul.  Timing is everything in a slipstream pass.  It's just that I was closing at a good rate and it was time to make a move.  Of course, I could have lifted altogether and waited but that seemed not very palatable at the time.  I do know that in my imagery, Billy was bouncing around all over the place and a pass might be chancy at best.  I think that Paul sums it best in saying that neither of us was entirely blameless.  Live and learn...

More galling than anything is realizing that the ultimate winner, Marco, got away Scot free from the Eau Rouge shunt.  Sigh...


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Boggy on March 03, 2014, 05:21:37 PM +0000
No problems Greg shouldn't have spun and become a road block, never got to grips with Malmady

Boggy


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: GregT on March 03, 2014, 06:53:52 PM +0000
No problems Greg shouldn't have spun and become a road block, never got to grips with Malmady

Boggy

That's cool. Stuff happens. If I had a texture of a flagman taking a nap, I'd use it for the guy at Malmedy. Another time he gave me warning and I slowed before entering Malmedy but I never saw another car. I'm still so new to online racing that I've got a lot to learn. A few weeks ago I was still struggling when following another car because of lag. It was so distracting I'd miss my lines and braking points. I'm adjusting to that fairly well. I now back off 2 or 3 meters and ignore most of the car flashing in front of me.

I got to thinking I need to map the F10 key to my wheel. I still don't know how far ahead I need to be in pribluda's distance figures before I can return to the racing line when passing. I could have used F10 in practice to see how the distance figures compare to what is actually happening.


More galling than anything is realizing that the ultimate winner, Marco, got away Scot free from the Eau Rouge shunt.  Sigh...


Marco got lucky. From what I was seeing I thought one or both of you were going off to the left or slide straight forward. I sure didn't expect GPL to pitch you back to the right in front of me. Momentum should have carried you forward instead of abruptly to the right. You should have taken the same line as Arf, Clive, and I did.

It's funny how GPL picks the winners and losers in incidents. Natan made it through unscathed when he very easily could have been wrecked. Dean suffered heavily when it looked like he had as much of a chance to get through as Natan did. Very nice job Arf dodging another bullet. You did exactly what I was hoping to do. My car did more as I would have expected. It slid forward and to the left of the racing line. Clive did a nice job too sticking as close to the right as he could, actually a tiny bit too far to the right.

I would say live and learn but I'd have likely died in an accident like that.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Phil Thornton on March 03, 2014, 08:23:54 PM +0000
Sorry about the roadblock Phil I was following David into the corner , he took a tight line into the corner which caught me out , I had to brake hard to avoid him and lost the rear end causing me to spin , unfortunately  ended up facing the wrong way and having to spin turn to recover .   

will submit my report , sorry to finish your race in this way  :-[
No problem Bernie.  I've had to report the incident because it was my second Shift-R (I'd forgotten the rules - inexcusable for a moderator ::) ) and I'm due a DQ.  I don't want Billy to have to trawl through the replay looking for incidents, the moderator's job is hard enough.  Best just to own up and put a book down my trousers!

For the record there wasn't much else you could do.  You were stopped on the racing line and had to move, no point staying where you were and waiting for a gap.  I'd have hit you anyway :(.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Doni Yourth on March 03, 2014, 08:56:18 PM +0000
Yes, I noted from the replays that you were savaged mightily, Greg.  Bad luck there, amigo.  As you mention, Dean, too got pasted.  Frank(and Marco)had the horseshoes.  Interesting to note that sometimes, GPL flagmen hoist the yellow in the section AFTER the cause and not BEFORE.  That kind of help we don't need!   :laugh:


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Arf Arf Arf on March 03, 2014, 09:13:57 PM +0000

Edit: I would also like to thank Arf for being 1/100th of a sec faster than me in qually.


My pleasure....  ;)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Turkey Machine on March 04, 2014, 08:06:38 PM +0000
I was having a good battle with Ronnie until Jethro lost it at La Carriére and spun in front of me.  I managed to avoid him but ended up rolling over and needing a shift R.  Lost at lot of places and time but I got going and started to chase down Rog, Bernie and David.  Managed to get on terms and went through Masta side by side on a couple of occasions.  First time was good, second time I got too close to the grass (I was trying to leave plenty of room) and spun out.  Didn't damage the car so I got going again but on the last lap I came across Bernie recovering at Les Combes and I couldn't avoid him.  Took a second shift R which means I'm DQ'ed I'll have to report myself :(.

Some exciting moments (going through Masta side by side with David was cool) but a disappointing finish in the end. 

Apologies for that one Phil, not a great deal I could do about that as I lost it on the exit of the corner and was a passenger for all to avoid.

Did my own race potential no favours by having a half-spin at La Source at the end of lap 2. It killed any slipstream I might get from the 3 run-away leaders, and forced me further back from them. Turns out I haven't had a competitive and a clean race at Spa, the last time I made (not many) mistakes was in 67s last season, and finished 5th in a BRM 50 seconds down on the winner in an Eagle.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Robert Fleurke on March 18, 2014, 12:07:18 AM +0000
Grid A mod report published.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Cookie on March 18, 2014, 01:05:18 AM +0000
Grid A mod report published.

Thanks Robert, great job  :thumbup2:


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Billy Nobrakes on March 19, 2014, 10:38:49 PM +0000
Full moderation report now published.
Thanks to Robert & Boggy for their assistance.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: DLogan on March 20, 2014, 06:15:09 PM +0000
"...Only one incident of note in the Red Zone but it is T1 and affects almost half the field!..."

So the instigators (who can continue) carry on their merry way, because it's just a "racing incident", no one did anything wrong (tho how two cars are expected to occupy the same piece of track, as these two BOTH tried to do, is beyond me).

No punishments? Not even warnings? How is this NOT expected to just keep on happening?  :-X


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Robert Fleurke on March 20, 2014, 09:29:58 PM +0000
"...Only one incident of note in the Red Zone but it is T1 and affects almost half the field!..."

So the instigators (who can continue) carry on their merry way, because it's just a "racing incident", no one did anything wrong (tho how two cars are expected to occupy the same piece of track, as these two BOTH tried to do, is beyond me).

No punishments? Not even warnings? How is this NOT expected to just keep on happening?  :-X

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/side_by_side

Contested Side by Side contact: Racing Incident

In a corner, after a legitimate overtaking attempt the cars end up side by side. Both drivers move over instead of staying on their own side of the track. Contact is made. Racing Incident.


A racing incident is a racing incident, even in the red zone. It sucks you suffered from it Dean, like Greg and Gareth. Advice has been given to Marco and Doni in the mod report, and hopefully taken...

Drivers should try and leave space in the first few corners when the field is compressed. You can't win a race at the first corner but you can lose it there. Give eachother more room after the start being alongside.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: DLogan on March 21, 2014, 12:23:08 PM +0000
https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/side_by_side

Contested Side by Side contact: Racing Incident

In a corner, after a legitimate overtaking attempt...

Pass attempt was NOT legitimate to begin with. There was no way Doni was going to make it past therefore this is more appropriate:

"Blatant Side by Side contact: Penalty 2 Places

On a straight, the overtaking car moves out to overtake but cuts back in too early. The victim made no mistakes and was driving their normal line at normal speed. The shunter made no allowance for the victim whatsoever and was in full control when the incident took place. There was no loss of control. Penalty for overtaking driver.
On a straight, the overtaking car moves out to overtake, maintains his line and has achieved 100% overlap but the overtaken driver moves across into him. There was no loss of control. Penalty for overtaken driver."

Both guilty of SOMETHING deserving at least a warning, at least???

Guess not, as your appraisal already has this: "Thanks Robert, great job  thumbup2"

So, five races left, and warnings about swearing flying, with race bans for it threatened?

See ya next season.

No swearing on the forum.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Cookie on March 21, 2014, 01:40:34 PM +0000
Dean, to make it clear:

An incident moderation is nearly never the result of a single decision of a mod!

The topic: "S26 F2 Spa Grid A draft report" of Robert in the mods forum used 1,5 sites, with comments of other mods (not involved in incidents).


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Doni Yourth on March 21, 2014, 02:15:23 PM +0000
Dear me...  There's ol' Dean flying off the handle...again.  I don't expect that many of you here at the UKGPL are aware that Deaner quit a league not so very long ago in a dispute over moderation.  He came here siting consistent and more balanced moderation.  Should you mods out there pack your bags?  Guess so.

As for the Lap01, T1 shunt, I maintain that I clearly had the drop on Marco and he just failed to make allowances for me.  The replay caps...both mine and the server's...indicate that.  I made no lunge up the inside in a desperate pass attempt.  It was a done deal.  I am not in the habit of making bonehead moves at anytime in our virtual races let alone in the red zone.

Dean...your analysis is remarkably faulty and completely at odds with reality.  Thank heavens that you're not a steward or judge of fact in real races.  (At least, I'm hoping not!  :))


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: BadBlood on March 21, 2014, 03:32:56 PM +0000
Just to make it clear about the swearing - it is cut and dried - it is not tolerated. We are guests of SROU and have signed up to that. The race ban is there to ensure people don't 'forget'. Swearing as an issue has nothing whatsoever to do with moderation.

As for moderations, drivers can disagree with moderations and I have done so in the past. That does not mean, of itself, that the moderation is at fault. Before pronouncing about how faulty a moderation is, spend the hour reviewing the race from ten different POVs and from six or seven cars. It is often surprising how an incident 'feels' and what actually happens.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: DLogan on March 21, 2014, 06:28:53 PM +0000
...I maintain that I clearly had the drop on Marco and he just failed to make allowances for me...

You got a better start, but WERE NOT AHEAD. If you had been ahead, there would have been no contact. You should have realized this, backed off, and got through the corner safely. You chose not to.

Marco should have known you were there, and either allowed you room beside or backed off and let you through and made it through the corner safely. He chose not to.

You both had the chance to get through safely. You both chose not to.

Yes, I'm upset at losing a lot of chances at having decent races this season (and not just in this division) for things which I feel people are not taking responsibility for, and the moderators are the ones who allow this to continue. And I'll be more than happy to share the replay of the VOR race (where Urban Anselmyr drove directly into the side of my car yet Bob didn't have a problem with it, or with Urban stopping in the middle of Tamburello ruining a qualifying session, or with Urban punting me over the armco at the start of another one) that ended my involvement with that league for anyone to review and comment on.

As for my view being "...completely at odds with reality..."? That's only because YOU know reality and no one else does, right?  ::)

Paul: "...spend the hour reviewing the race from ten different POVs and from six or seven cars...". Did that, thanks (maybe not an hour, as it was only ten seconds of action that I was reviewing in this case).


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Phil Thornton on March 21, 2014, 11:17:54 PM +0000
I understand why Dean is annoyed about the incident at L'Eau Rouge.  Nothing is more frustrating than being taken out because of someone elses accident.  Could this incident have been avoided?  Yes it could by either:

1.  Doni staying in line and not overtaking.  The moderators have often discussed the idea of not allowing any overtaking until after T1 Lap 1.  We know some leagues have used this type of rule.  We've used rolling starts for the Sports Cars in order to try to reduce Lap 1 T1 incidents.  The concensus is that artificially preventing overtaking spoils the racing.  Getting a good start is all part of the skill, is more authentic and is really exciting and rewarding when you get it right.  So on that basis, this option is ruled out.

2.  Doni and Marco keeping to the edge of the track and not migrating towards the middle.  To be honest this is a common theme in many incidents in GPL.  Drivers tend not to give each other enough room. 

Dean's analysis of this incident is perfectly correct, Doni and Marco should have given each other more room but they chose not to.  Dean was also right to say Doni wasn't ahead.  He hadn't won the corner.  Doni and Marco were side by side when the incident occurred.

When an incident is clearly the fault of one of the drivers it is easy to apportion blame and award penalties, but in a 50:50 case what is the best thing to do?  Penalize both or penalize neither?  In the penalty guidelines for a side by side (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/side_by_side) or an ambitious overtake (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/ambitious_overtake) we describe when it is the overtaking driver's fault and when it is the overtaken driver's fault.  But as you can see when it is 50:50 we choose to do nothing.  In most cases in open racing only the two protagonists will be affected.  Our view is that it is their own stupid fault and crashing out is punishment enough.  However at the start there is always a danger of a mass pile up and to discourage reckless driving at the start we tend to award an extra place penalty (see First Lap Incidents (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/penalties)) where someone is deemed to be at fault.

The biggest problem with awarding penalties is that you can always punish the guilty but you cannot reinstate the innocent.  Unfortunately Dean was one of several innocent parties in this case, there is nothing the moderators can do to ameliorate that.

All the moderators can do is appeal to the drivers to treat each other with respect.  Whilst it may be asking too much to accept they have done something wrong, perhaps it is reasonable to expect drivers to admit they could have done more to prevent an incident.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Doni Yourth on March 24, 2014, 11:17:15 PM +0000
I beg to differ, Phil...  And referring to involved parties as being stupid is treading on the thinnest ice.

Dean challenges 'my' version of reality.  Like there's more than one.  Laughable.

Are the following two screen shots fiction then?  They are taken at the same instant.  An instant before things went South.

The first is a rear view from Cookie's car.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/31/mho3.jpg)

Next, a high shot from Greg's perspective.  Provides a better view than from the cockpit.

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/208/zoni.jpg)

Now are we to believe this to be a dead heat?  Am I imagining things?  No, clearly, car #14 is well ahead.  Is this not a clear pass?  In the resulting shunt between car #14 and #19, who is responsible party?  This is not side-by-side contact.  Marco's RF clipped my LR.

Shall we blame Greg for getting a lousy start and opening up the opportunity for me to spear right in the first place?  Kidding.  :)  I saw him launch well but then heard his engine bog down and he faded.  This left me clear to move right around Marco and as is clear from the pix, Eau Rouge is MINE.  A whole host of factors are involved but stupidity isn't one of them.  At least, not on my part...


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Robert Fleurke on March 25, 2014, 12:34:49 AM +0000
Doni has a good start and gets alongside Marco towards Eau Rouge. Both go slightly to the middle, and together with a little warp/lag both make contact.

(http://plaatjesdump.nl/upload/bc901e53f762444cc8dc102662a5f2d4.jpg)

Doni, you didn't clear Marco. You both move to the middle of the racing line.

(http://plaatjesdump.nl/upload/3c4b84bdecfcf7a8f34bc14471588700.jpg)

One frame later, as racereport suggested, a little warp/lag, and you both wreck. 50/50. You were both equally at fault.

And can we please move on now?  ::)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Phil Thornton on March 25, 2014, 12:37:55 AM +0000
I beg to differ, Phil...  And referring to involved parties as being stupid is treading on the thinnest ice.
I didn't call anyone stupid.  Take out the word stupid and the meaning of the sentence is the same if somewhat less forthright. 

The point I am making here is that there is a limit to what the moderators can rule on.  There has to be someone clearly at fault before a penalty is applied.  Otherwise we would be apportioning blame everytime there is contact however minor and everytime someone makes a move that means another driver has to adjust their line.  The moderators would be in danger of spending countless hours arguing over the minutiae of every incident however minor.

The fact is, as drivers we are all responsible for what happens on the track.  The moderators can take action against drivers who are persistently cause havoc but moderating is no substitute for gentlemanly conduct.

Quote
Now are we to believe this to be a dead heat?  Am I imagining things?  No, clearly, car #14 is well ahead.  Is this not a clear pass?  In the resulting shunt between car #14 and #19, who is responsible party?  This is not side-by-side contact.  Marco's RF clipped my LR.
I agree this is not a dead heat but it is not the real world either.  We have to drive within the limits of on-line racing.  For the reason I have cited above, in UKGPL a driver is deemed not to have finished an overtaking move until they are completely past their opponent.

This has been debated before.  Please have a look at the screenshots and explanation in this post (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=12069.msg217129#msg217129).

Quote
is clear from the pix, Eau Rouge is MINE.
In terms of an advantage maybe, but according to our definitions at UKGPL it is not.  Until you are cleanly past the corner is still being contested.  Marco has not given up.  He is on the racing line and trying hard.  You are off the racing line and trying to go around him.

Quote
A whole host of factors are involved but stupidity isn't one of them.  At least, not on my part...
Sorry if my use of the word stupid has caused offence.  It was not my intention.  I'm not calling either you or Marco stupid.  You are both racing for position, that is a conscious decision you have both made.  You are both aware of each other (or at least you should be, you are both very experienced drivers) and chose to keep pushing. 

The lesson to be learnt here is that the moderators cannot be expected to apportion blame to one party or the other for every incident.  There are some situations, and this is one of them, where the drivers have to take responsibility for their actions.  If drivers insist they are always in the right and refuse to admit there is anything they could have done to avoid the incident we will never move on.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Doni Yourth on March 25, 2014, 11:32:35 AM +0000
Robert & Phil:

Thanks for the input.  I'm astonished at the overhead images that Robert posted that indicate that I was not further ahead of Marco as I believed.  My replay cap show something quite different.  And from what I can make out, the server replay largely agrees with my own.  What I am to make of it?  Dunno...

Thanks for the link to the other screenies, Phil.  Interesting stuff.

Moving right along...  :)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: BadBlood on March 25, 2014, 01:12:55 PM +0000
Thanks for the input.  I'm astonished at the overhead images that Robert posted that indicate that I was not further ahead of Marco as I believed.  My replay cap show something quite different.  And from what I can make out, the server replay largely agrees with my own.  What I am to make of it?  Dunno...

Those overhead shots ARE from the server replay. That is EXACTLY what I meant about how an incident 'feels' and how it is. The overhead camera views are invaluable in judging these incidents.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Doni Yourth on March 26, 2014, 11:46:52 AM +0000
Paul and/or Robert:

These camera views from Spa posted above by Robert are not standard.  At least not in my track directory.  Do you have a special cam file?

Gimme, gimme...svp.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Robert Fleurke on March 26, 2014, 12:19:57 PM +0000
Paul and/or Robert:

These camera views from Spa posted above by Robert are not standard.  At least not in my track directory.  Do you have a special cam file?

Gimme, gimme...svp.

You can download them here (https://www.ukgpl.com/files/moderators_camera_views.zip) ;)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 26 (2014) Formula Two Trophy - Spa - Mar 2
Post by: Doni Yourth on March 26, 2014, 07:11:40 PM +0000
Super!  Thanks, Bobbie!  :)