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Please PM one of the moderating team if there is a thread of general interest or you believe that a thread is 'missing'. Merging threads and keeping track of all the replies is fairly hard work.

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I know it is late in the season but this is our Easter break...

As usual, we would like your views on a number of subjects.

Are we running the correct series?

• We are running two 67 series (non-negotiable), two 65 series, a 66 series, the Friday mixed series, an F2 series. Is that the way we would like to continue

Are mixed grids right? LIGHTS and HEAVIES together or would smaller split grids work better?

• Stick to one grid for the F2's and Historics?

Drivers Forum for in-season discussions

• You got it, but nobody has used it

Format for next season

• Any changes you would like to suggest.

Moderators

• Any one like to volunteer to help out? You won't find equal pay and conditions anywhere else!

Anything else you would like to raise.

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Martin's original (unofficial) thread starter
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There was a time when a mid-Season review was willingly offered up, to allow the discussion of thoughts and ideas, of disgust and displeasures, and the means by which to improve our lot, or to prevent the depravity and corruption from getting any worse!  ;D  Last time out, the proper page arrived very late, and again it's present absence is presently present?  Are there voices to be heard - what fiendish plots have we subjects been subjected to, which require our attention, and naughty words?  Has anyone been subjected to toxic mid-Season rule changes, for example, and are these helpful, by providing an unknown fun factor to our racing?

Until an official thread is started, place your words here.

I have nothing to add except for two points. I vote for a qualification penalty on top of the penalties already given, and perhaps also a 'start from the pits' penalty if he or she has really screwed up, to prevent recurrences of accidents.

I also vote for the Graduates Works and Privateers Cup token system to be carried over to all the other series. We have seen with the Friday Cup how fun handicapping can be, but also how much discussion arises from moderators telling racing which car to choose. A token system will relieve a moderator from finding out which chassis works best for which handicap, and the racers will have nobody to blame but themselves for picking a particular car. Here is a proposed token system for the 1967 F2's:

Matra MS7 FVA : 13 tokens
Matra MS5 FVA : 12 tokens
Brabham BT23 FVA : 12 tokens
Lola T100 FVA : 12 tokens
Lotus 48 FVA : 12 tokens
Lotus 41B FVA: 11 tokens
McLaren M4A FVA : 11 tokens
Protos 16 FVA : 10 tokens
Lola T100 BMW : 10 tokens
Cooper T84 FVA : 8 tokens
Ferrari 166 : 5 tokens
Brabham BT14 LF : 0 tokens

We did try a variation on the tokens idea for the Friday Series a few seasons ago, but from memory the lights had 20% less tokens than the Heavies...just to balance things up.

It just gets a little complicated to keep track of the token use across 4 different car sets....at least I found it hard work. But, if there is a general agreement that this is the way to go I'm sure that it could be done.

the point of the token system is everybody gets the same amount , if you are going to give people different amounts they can spend then you should be handicapping them another way . if everybody gets the same amount it's a very simple system with very little work to do .

I agree. Have faith in the system Clive, it works really well :) .

For the F2 token system I cobbled up, the 'joker car' is the Cooper. It is fast enough on some tracks that you don't sacrifice too much, and it allows you to run your favorite car in most other races, when you add the start-of-season 10 bonus tokens, except for the MS7, which is the fastest car (and should be since it was freshly developed for the new rules). The differences between the cars are a lot smaller than with the 1967 F1's so the token table reflects that.

If it is too hard work to use you can simplify the system further by giving more cars 10 tokens.

The system is a lot of fun, easy to use and transparent.

Tokens allow drivers to choose between options, and vary the mix of competition at each race.  They also allow all the different cars to be realistically raced, which adds variety and colour.  It's a tried and tested system which could work well, wherever raw speed, is not hugely different across the grid.

If tokens are properly assigned, disputes over handicapping, and prompt per race designation might not be needed. Where speed difference is great, a 2 tier token type system could titillate . . . whoops, sorry!  In this case, Moderation would have to get tough, and decide who amongst us, are the more serious contenders, within a single championship.  Or else, simply reduce by half or, the tokens available to the top 3, or?  The individual Series would tend to dictate the detokenization situation. And once tuned it would all in theory, be fault free. 8)

the token system is not a handicapping system and wasn’t designed to be one , with the token system everybody has the same potential amount of tokens . i also believe that it also encourages drivers to turn up to as many races as they can , because they are given tokens only by starting races .

if you want to handicap drivers don't bother with tokens just tell then what cars they are allowed to drive , be it using historical data or their place in the championship . 

The token system could be used as an all encompassing tool, to include handicapping, but could quickly become too complex to manage.  The chassis handicapping suggested worked well for 65's, but Moderation sadly chickened out when current leadership arrived.

The token system increases the spread throughout the field, so you are always racing someone, which removes the need for handicapping entirely.

I've had another thought, and with the bonus 10 tokens for the first race, the F2 system might not be spread out enough, as you will be able to get to the fifth race handicap free. Increasing the distance to the 10 token spot solves that, and looks like this:

Matra MS7 FVA : 16 tokens
Matra MS5 FVA : 14 tokens
Brabham BT23 FVA : 14 tokens
Lola T100 FVA : 14 tokens
Lotus 48 FVA : 14 tokens
Lotus 41B FVA: 12 tokens
McLaren M4A FVA : 12 tokens
Protos 16 FVA : 10 tokens
Lola T100 BMW : 10 tokens
Cooper T84 FVA : 6 tokens
Ferrari 166 : 3 tokens
Brabham BT14 LF : 0 tokens

For F2's the token system might be even easier to implement as there are two grids just like with the Graduates Cup so the field should consist of more drivers with roughly the same abilities. But really it doesn't matter as the system will spread the field anyway.

in the 67 token model .. the tokens they get for starting a season allows them to take the top car in the ranking (the lotus) for the first race .

john

so you could say start with 10 tokens to start the season ... but then only get given say 6 tokens for each race start ....

when you think about this it could get fun !

john

Haha I've tried to replicate that with the above token system, you can only pick the MS7 in the first race, when you get 10 bonus tokens. You'll get 10 tokens for participation in an event, so you can always take the Protos or BMW. But you can also harshen the system and add 4 more tokens for each car :) . To keep it simple it's best to keep the tokens awarded the same, and play with token spending a bit, rather than the other way round.

Nice words Maddog.. my only thought is this: would it be simpler with a 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 token situation and 10 starting, 5 to follow etc.? I don't know the strengths of the cars as much, but just aimed to simplify it slightly. In the words of Colin Chapman..

In that situation, most cars would be 6 or 8 and the MS7 10. Sounds like the Protos or BMW are Brabham like "any time" cars, so maybe should be 5. But regardless - good working out Tommie!

The best way to start a new racing format, is to look at past races, as they will give a good idea as-to what will work best.  Theory does not always meet with reality. :chef:

As this currently remains the spot to discuss our thoughts and ideas, about the racing here, I've one topic to add.  I seem to remember, at the last Mid-Season review, the 50% RACE DISTANCE to score points idea, was raised by one guy, seconded by one Moderator, and suddenly announced as a done deal when we started this Season!

Is this good?  Is this working?  Are there fewer accidents because we are driving more carefully?  Are victims more annoyed because points are now robbed?   :-\

There is a Season 26 driver feedback topic, found here (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=12145.0). ;)

Thanks Robert, but you will also find a Mid-Season review for these matters, in Seasons 18,19,20,21,22,23,24 . . . and 25. ;)  So there has been continuity until now.  I see nothing here to upset or annoy Moderation.  It is possible for this to happen either way, but we may improve our racing, or our understanding by discussion, and some look to this topic for that reason.   

you could have just asked for a mid season review thread rather than starting yours in the main gpl channel , usually the review threads are in "ukgpl announcements" , that is where i guess most people will expect to see it . your thread here i thought of it as more light hearted than a formal thread ...

i don't see this as the formal mid season review .

Apologies for the late creation of this - I have been somewhat busier than in previous seasons as my improved health means that I am now working full time. This makes the unofficial thread official. So, as is customary your chance to contribute (further).

As John has implied, in future, if you want a thread for the members to see, a PM asking for one would be the best way to do it as it can easily be missed in the open Grand Prix Legends forum. It also nudges me in to action as I had simply forgotten to do this, for which apologies, once again.

The comments above are noted.

I know it is late in the season but this is our Easter break...

As usual, we would like your views on a number of subjects.

Are we running the correct series?

• We are running two 67 series (non-negotiable), two 65 series, a 66 series, the Friday mixed series, an F2 series. Is that the way we would like to continue

Are mixed grids right? LIGHTS and HEAVIES together or would smaller split grids work better?

• Stick to one grid for the F2's and Historics?

Drivers Forum for in-season discussions

• You got it, but nobody has used it

Format for next season

• Any changes you would like to suggest.

Moderators

• Any one like to volunteer to help out? You won't find equal pay and conditions anywhere else!

Anything else you would like to raise.

No it could not be used as an all encompassing handicapping tool, The way that the token system works cannot distinguish between drivers so cannot be used as a handicap. The moderation team were happy with the handicap system but abandoned it as it was complex to administer during moderation, caused lots of arguments and in large part, did not achieve its objectives.

We are attempting to simplify the rules so that it is less confusing when drivers swap series and moderating is made easier.

The implication we 'chickened out' is simply wrong. If you desperately want handicapping re-introduced and can make it simple to administer this is your chance to show us how.

Hi I'd like to make a suggestion.  Due to planetary issues I can only take part in the Friday series so I'll stick to that.  Firstly I'd like to thank all the organizers and moderators for their hard work.  Greatly appreciated.  Regarding the series, I think it's become a bit too frantically busy compared to previous years.  Two races every week for half a year is a bit of a grueling schedule.  Perhaps some more gaps should be put in.  

Thanks for providing the official playground, we have come to know and love.  It seems a bit empty without Hristo here. ;D I don't wish to distract but :

I believe the token system could be used as an all encompassing tool.  You could require them thare dastardly front runners, to be awarded a fraction of the usual token tally per race.  BUT, as previously stated, once a pocket calculator became necessary to sort ones accumulated spoils, the plot might get spoilt.  I suspect such would also cause inaccuracy, for those who like to hover over the table . . . at the token tally.  Which would not be ideal, if my compass is correct?

Handicapping - as I recall, 65's were successfully handicapped by assigning each driver a chassis for  the Season, according to ability.  Once done, it was maintenance free all Season.  One or two adjustments for new guys, obviously faster - no race by race arithmetic - no despair over late penalty assessment?  No wavering.  What was required, was a firm hand, and a shrewd judgement.  Where these are lacking, this system adds to the load for Moderators, as some racers are not sympathetic ones. 'Chickened out,' was the crude way of saying, opted out after due consideration. :smartass:

Handicapping where someone judges the speed of someone else and gives him a slower car to achieve a given laptime is never going to work without flaws.

A token system removes the need for handicapping entirely in my opinion.

A combination of both handicapping and tokens is worse than going with just one of the two.

not sure how tokens are a substitute for handicapping?

Anyway, get clive to let me drive a proper car  in 69x and stop being soooo evil! (it don't matter to me that much as I wont be singing up as a pro/light next season, as I am not even close to being such anymore and part of the reason for the lack of appearances) but its still a bit much of a handicap.

can we drop the f2 part of the Friday series, we have a proper series for it,  in favour of the can am66? it should be out by next season.

review the punishment for l1 t1 pileups, its gotta stop.

are we gunna test the pitstop patch?, is there any intention to introduce it, it may be cool.

all else is cool, thanks to mods/organisers.

Token system and handicapping are two different pair of shoes!

Tokens are a great system to make a grid more diversified, but it also gives some advantage to the more experienced drivers ;)

Handicapping is necessary for series with drivers of different skills driving together with a single championship table.

My way of handicapping would be to let the drivers do a self evaluation,
to make a fair car choice for the season in agreement with the organizers.

Mixing token system and handicapping would be interesting, but I think too complicated for the administration...

My thoughts on s26 are;

1. I fully support the 50% rule
2. I'm not entering 4 series next season, its too much (...and yet I don't want to stop any of them...)
3. I'd like some clarity on what's happening with the Brands F2 race. As it stands I think we're expected to all (A and B) rerun. However, as far as I understand it, there was only a problem with one replay/upload/set of results (no one has told me different), so I don't see why my group should have to rerun (if that is what's being proposed).

Cheers

Arf

Honestly, it really can't be used in that way as it is a 'one size fits all' system - everyone gets the same tokens regardless of ability. That is how the system works and there is nothing that can change that as the token system is applied to the series and not the drivers


Problem with this was late and new registrations - we couldn't fairly assign chassis without being unfair and there was a huge amount of negative feedback <ahem>.

Intention is to re-run at the end of the season on one grid. There was only an issue with one grid but we felt it fairer to everybody to re-run the whole round (which) implies both grids.

We could combine tokens and handicaps in something like that :

before first race 20 tokens for everybody
then only 1 token for the first driver, 2 tokens for the 2nd ...10 tokens for the 10th and the followers.



And I am OK with the 50% of the distance needed to score.


  

I'm afraid I don't see how that is fair on the grid that had no problems. I don't get to rerun a race where I crash/get crashed into/lose the engine.....

bonkers . using this system if the winner of the first raced used the lotus they would be forced to run the BRM in the 2nd race . i don't think this system would have many happy drivers .

as i have said before if you want to handicap drivers just tell them what cars they can drive .

And the problem with that is that the handicapped drivers never get to drive the fun cars.  What was wrong with the counting system - where you can use any car, but only once per season.  That was pretty good. 

I also think the F2's should be dropped, and just make the GT races twice as long.

Some of you might have noticed my absence from races and the forums lately, some of you might even have welcomed the relative silence from this quarter  ::).  Real Life has just been very complicated for me lately and the evenings when we run GPL races have been swamped by other commitments.

It is Saturday morning and I found myself with a spare hour or so to catch up. It is raining so I cannot mow the lawn, and frankly I feel knackered enough not to do anything at the moment, so thought I would throw in a few comments.

The overriding topic seems to be tokens and handicapping, which has rightly been pointed out by some as being 2 different things.

Handicapping, in whatever form it takes,  places a restraint on the drivers that are able to extract the fastest and more consistent lap times. These drivers are traditionally identified by their position in the points table and generally we have selected the top 3 for special treatment.  The intention of handicapping is to artificially keep the season "alive" for the whole 10 races by preventing one or two aliens from amassing so many points in the first 5 races that the championship effectively becomes a 2 or 3 horse race at half distance. In the past when this happened many of the mid table drivers and those lower down dropped out and the last 3 or 4 races had very small grids composed only of the elite drivers who still had a shot at the title.

Going back into the mists of time when there was only GPL67's to race ( YES! I am that old!!!) there were pitstops that were calculated on the performance of the various cars. Phil Thornton has a spreadsheet that would use the current World Record times for each car on a given track. It would calculate the differences and apply a pit stop time to each chassis that theoretically would meant that all of the cars crossed the finish line together. Of course this assumed that all cars were driven by drivers of equal ability and no-one made any mistakes ( Yeah! we get a lot of those races don't we??). But what it did do very effectively was ensure that anyone taking a Lotus, for instance, could not blast in the first 10 laps and pull out a nice lead and then cruise for the final 50% of the race.
The Lotus would inevitably attract the longest stop in the pits and believe me, if you had to sit in the pitlane for 30 seconds and watch your hard won 20 second lead vanish as slower cars ( which maybe required no stop at all) droned past and took your position it certainly focused your driving on the rest of the race as you chased them down and tried to regain your "rightful" place.  In general this system did not handicap the driver, but handicapped the car choice. An alien would be expected to be faster then a mere mortal in any race in the same car, so results still showed the fast guys getting the champagne, but they had to work for the whole race to earn it.
The big drawback with pitstops is the GPL software that does not like cars loitering anywhere for more than 30 seconds...it disconnects you without warning!!  Whilst there are ways around this it has always been a source of extreme irritation when GPL suddenly kicks you out of a race for doing nothing wrong and so many members understandably do not like it.

We ( the secret society of admins and moderators) discovered a few seasons back that once someone became bored enough to drop out half way through the season, there was a strong chance that they would not sign up for the next one and numbers started to dwindle to the point where the admin and moderators became very concerned about membership. Ask yourself a question... if you have a choice of joining 2 leagues, will you join the one that has regular grids composed of 5 aliens each week , or one that has 12-15 drivers of varying ability, or possibly 2 divisions where you are certain to find someone of similar pace to race against?? there is a critical mass element at work here and we are currently doing some things right because our numbers are pretty constant and we have new people still joining. Not bad for a 16 year old PC game?
We have tried various forms of handicapping from limited car choice, single chassis allocation and even pit stops and all have their plus and minus points, but all have been intended to keep things interesting.

Tokens were introduced to the 67 series as a way of preventing the all Lotus/Eagle grids that we were regularly seeing, persuade/force drivers to use the other available cars AND turn up for those races even if they were in a slower chassis. Although IMHO not a perfect system, there is no doubt that it has worked well and does indeed see mixed grids and a little tactical thinking by the competitors.  Tokens applied across the board, as in this system,  do not offer any handicapping because that was never the intention.

We did try a variation on the token system for the early Friday series, where each car was given a token value ( similar to Tommy's F2 suggestion) and at the outset drivers were given a quantity of tokens that had to last the whole season, but no extra tokens were earned just because you turned up for a race. At the beginning of the season  faster drivers were given less tokens than the slower members and this allowed the fast driver to select the fastest car if he wanted it for a particular race, but it made a big hole in his budget for the season. Whereas a slower driver with a larger initial budget could take faster cars more often.
This was effectively a token system that handicapped, but it took a lot of admin time to keep a check on all drivers and which cars they had/had not used.

As with all things each and every variation has its plus points and minus points and these will, or will not, appeal to members. All the administrators can do is be as democratic as possible, and where it is a practical proposition that can be implemented without the need for a full time software engineer and 27 backroom staff , they put the suggestions into operation.

Please remember that what might seem a simple and obvious solution to you,  may, because of the way that SROU operates behind the scenes( which incidentally is run by a very generous and helpful guy for the benefit of many racing sims) not be a possibility.  The results posting, the incident report system, and even the 67 token system are all linked by the same operating system running behind this forum. We are lucky to be able to use it, but we do not have the right to alter things just because it might seem like a good idea to try this season.


Ok I am going back into my hermit's hut now and you can have some peace and quiet again.  Hoping to be home in time for Sunday's race  ;)

What I've found this season is that the 50% distance rule for finishing ends up penalising those who are unwittingly kiboshed by some poor unfortunate malfunction, be that car-related or, ahem, person-related. I used to have a couple of good races a season but still turn up to most, even when the engine let go I'd still finish decently in the standings. Now, I can be overtaken in the standings by a 1-shot wonder winning 1 race and attempting no more. Whilst it's good in theory, in practice it doesn't reward participation. I'd propose removing that requirement for future seasons.

67s: Token system works well here, and I seem to remember season 18 when it was introduced was one of the closest seasons and had some great racing. :)

66s: Had some interesting server issues with T7 that caused some obvious warp, otherwise seems to be well behaved.

65s: In my humble opinion, this works better with handicapping of chassis to driver pace and result history.

F2s: I've had the most fun in this series, as whilst the cars are similar on pace to the 65 machines, it goes a bit quicker! Racing appears to be a bit more relaxed too, rather than being so on-edge in other series. Firm keeper for me!

I've no comment on the other series as I don't participate.

Regarding the server issues, I hope T7 do sort these out, as the stability while we've been using it for a number of years has been reliable, but lately just seems unviable. As a result, I've tried to make one I run available where possible some evenings and weekends for practice, but like Badblood I work full-time and this is a hobby, so it's a best-efforts basis!

Provisionally, it needs VNC and loose grids to host any races, plus extra mods and tracks as necessary, otherwise this should be good for next season.

Jethro, I just uploaded a "loose grid" collection to the UKGPL3 FTP server in the "tracks" folder ;)

My hero!!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D

Also, I have no problem moderating if required. :)

I have no real complaints.

I really like the simplicity of the Works coin system.

I don't like the F2 handicap but that is because I never thought it would apply to me.

I think I would rather have the Friday series run one race on the same track four consecutive weeks. The change in cars bothers me at times but that will lessen as I get more experience with the car choices. My idea also ruins the opportunity to get in some later action if you run into trouble in the first race. So my preference is no improvement. I despise Ford Motor Company so I'm not particularly fond of the GT choices. But all that stuff I can easily endure.

I can't think of a single thing that I would say should be changed. It all seems to work fairly well and it appears that the stewards are close to what they want to achieve.

well Clive if you go to the mists of time then i go back to prehistoric times , when dinosaurs walked the earth and played gpl 67 on dial-up using a token system , i joined in season 4 . the pitstop system started later in season six and hit the leagues like an asteroid wiping out the dinosaurs in the process , leaving only small animals and bugs under rocks and the vegetation to rule things for awhile .

things have since evolved but not everything has worked right first time , when ukgpl first tried to run a f1 65 div it folded after one season with only a handful of drivers at each race , it wasn’t helped that it was still using vroc . but over time systems for handicapping and a reintroduction of a token system for f1 67 and the introduction of other gpl mods have changed the league and i can safely say that the monkeys now well and truly in charge of the league .

john

LOL John.

I was not suggesting that I was the oldest guy in these parts ( I know I am not), or even that when it all started pit stops were the norm.

 Rather, I was trying to show that over time UKGPL has tried many different ways to keep the racing alive and interesting with various handicapping and chassis limiting systems. Some ideas have worked, some have not worked so well or have been tweaked and tried a second time with greater success, but always the mods have tried to improve the UKGPL experience.

 To suggest that the mods ever do things to antagonise the members is obviously wrong, however there have been times when the implementation of certain changes have thrown up unforeseen problems or results. 
The general consensus seems to be that although UKGPL is not perfect ( it never will be for everyone!) it is pretty good at the moment. So I would urge caution about wholesale changes to all of the various classes, because it is their very difference in their handicapping/tokens etc that contributes to the varied racing that you get.

Not that I'm wishing to harp on about it too much :)   but there was a question asked as to whether there were any client replays available for the group-B Brands event & I did (try anyway) to supply one as requested.   Granted,  there were some issues from what I could see warp/server-wise from the start round the hairpin (& I think a couple of other occasions with some minor cloaking taking place ahead)  but I think that was about it.

Was it just the case that the client replay was unusable in the end?


Otherwise,  I'm mainly enjoying the various series so far.
If the F2 was not part of the Fri entertainment,  then I would not be in there at all.   I'm not really interested in long GT races (or extended CanAM for that matter)  but a little taster now and again is palatable.   Although,  if a separate series was run for the chaps that like that kind of thing,  then fair enough!   
(or, may I suggest - if driving tin-tops are that appealing - there are other areas of srou that cater for that kind of thing...  :o  )

 I've even managed a couple of good (for me) outings in the 69x & I know nothing about that.  Just turn up in the MS80  (as that was permitted last time out for heavies) with the same setup everywhere & try not to crash too much.


It's probably true to say that nobody is really having the F2 series that they were hoping for;  personally previous seasons were much more enjoyable.    Well,  rather than drag that up again - as it was all covered at the season start;    it's surely better this way where all comers get a Sunday race as deserved.  Although, tonight's event was just not worth the paper my event details were written on...

Anyway,  thanks to all that get the series running & mod team. Appreciated.

Cheers,
Dave.

Ok, whereabouts then?

Yep. Couldn't reconstruct the result from that replay :(

I just remembered something I posted awhile back, as background info, and to help explain the origins of the omnipresent potential for handicapping conflagrations . . . . . "The what? ". . . . .

Some folks might not realise why the cars we race, vary as they do between fastest, and slowest.  It's because of their different differences, that different handicap systems are used.  And because of this, new Mods, and Moderators might need experimentation, before they're perfect.

GPL was made to be as realistic as possible.  Wherever possible, everything was, ans still is factored in from actual data.  Some of the lengthy time spent on each new Mod, is involved in accurately recreating each car as it actually was.  

Some racers might argue we should start making cars, with evenly spaced performance.  Why not simply make 5 sets of fantasy cars - Mod A, B, C, D, E, and race them mostly on fantasy tracks.  Well, where's the character in that - what have you to compare with - there's not much room for the imagination to roam in.  Agreed, handicapping would then be easy.

The fact is, the teams who make these Mods have a specific goal - to recreate a moment in time - a specific racing era.  And cars are built to perform as in reality, regardless of all other cars, on the same track,at the same time.  When we drive these cars, we're able to compare ourselves with the greatest drivers of that age, and in the most realistic way most of us will ever experience.  It's then up to our Moderators to do a good job, in making the handicap system fit the cars.  :angel:

It would be ideal if it was really like in real life, meaning you had to start with an old, slow car, then, if you achieved respectable results, you could land a job at one of the works teams, first one with a slower car, and when you kept doing well, a job at Ferrari or Lotus :) . If someone could figure out how to implement that in a league, it would be the holy grail of simracing  ;D .

Perhaps for the Friday league, it would be an idea to let everyone start with the slowest car for round 1, then, for the next round, the fastest chassis for P1 in the championship, second fastest for P2, third fastest for P3 etc. and continue this on. You would think that the fastest guys would run away with it then, but there would be pressure to perform, since if you crashed out or blew your engine, you would really suffer for the next race. In addition to rewards for good performances instead of punishments, you could perhaps run a reversed grid in the second heat of the Friday series based on the results of the first (could be achieved simply through join order an no quali), to keep things interesting.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

But all of the cars are old!  With some of them being even older;  & I have a feeling that some upcoming new additions may be even older still?!

Good spin of an idea though; although I'd be forever confined to the initial slow offering with the wonky chassis & hexagonal wheels...

edit: On second thoughts, maybe it's a silly idea really :)

A primary function of mine, is to check cars appearance and performance for originality, before these creations finally, hopefully, hit the open road.  Perceptions of 60's racing are easily lead astray.  In GPL, we are racing new cars.  The original champion chosen when you ran the Sim, was Sir Jack.  He was F1 World champion during the 67 Season.  GPL is not supposed to be a Museum, but I daresay ones personage is getting a tad too serious. :laugh:  Just don't let the cars get too dusty!

And for Tommie - I'm not sure reverse handicapping would prove very popular, except for those at the front, including Tvo's.  I did once suggest a reverse grid, but it was considered such arrangements would cause de-rangements, and an excess of rearrangements. :-\  Would be fun to try if well mannered.

Obviously, a requirement for the reverse grid to work, would be both agreement with the rule, and gentleman behaviour, both for the attacker and defender. Not being happy with the reverse grid rule, but starting anyway, will always result in a retirement, be it from you or the opponent you just rammed in your impatience.

In IndyCar, the racing rule for many years was that blocking the inside of a corner before entry was forbidden (it is now relaxed). I don't necessarily agree with this rule, but when moderators are worried about carnage with a reverse grid, they might introduce this in the respective league's racing etiquette.

From a personal point of view, racing etiquette at any series other than the Graduates Cup is quite appaling to be honest. The main train of thought seems to be "If I clash with someone, let the moderators sort it out". I see a lot of "Sorry I hit you, please feel free to submit a report if you feel so inclined", which is too little, too late, after wrecking someone elses race. Drivers should take more effort to avoid collisions. I see a lot of it comes from moderators looking at a collision as an isolated incident, when in reality, there could have been more close calls before, which should have told the drivers to take more care. Treating each incident as an isolated event results in less harsh penalties, which also have no effect on future events whatsoever. Perhaps indicating driver etiquettes should be raised (especially with reverse grids), for instance banning blocking (at least for a while) could result in the possibility to introduce new, exciting formats.

I have to admit, I tried blocking in the F2 fun VIR race, in the first corner on the last lap, and that backfired badly! Sometimes I can't help myself but to try it out, since I know it is allowed, although it ends in a collision 99 % of the time. I think best would be to ban blocking, which means sticking to the racing line, even if you are being challenged for position. It may be a disadvantage one lap, but an advantage the lap after that ;) .

I hope you confuse blocking with defensive driving Tommie. Blocking isn't allowed! ;) Thanks for your suggestions.

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette

Blocking is not allowed, but defensive driving is allowed. If a driver moves off the racing line before the car behind attempts to overtake, this is defensive driving. If they move off the racing line after the car behind has started to move across to overtake, this is blocking. If a driver is driving defensively they may move off the line and back onto it only once per straight/section.

https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/blocking_weaving

I am not too fond of reverse grids. It is difficult for an amateur driver to withstand the pressure from having an entire field bottled up behind. (edit: Also it is difficult for a driver in the middle of the field to be patient when overtaking a slower car while a faster car is applying pressure from behind.) I think it works better if a faster driver volunteers to skip Qualifying to start in the back. I have not participated in many of the Friday races lately, so do not put too much weight in my opinion on reverse grids. Of course, I would still participate in the races .

Perhaps a suggestion of my own, we could use the phrase, "Balance of Performance" to describe our handicapping system.

Last but not least, thanks to everyone that makes our races possible. It has been a lot of fun for me this season.

Thank you!  

Yeah right Tommie I really enjoyed the recent 69x race at Aintree when some hot head completely lost it at Turn 1, ended up the wrong way round on a blind bend, leaving me nowhere to go and wrecked my race before it had even started. Sure these things happen but yes an apology would have been nice  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Just because other people don't/won't apologise does not mean they are not involved in as many if not more incidents. Plus why do people assume that if you apologise you are to blame which simply does not automatically follow.

Saying sorry does not make one a bad driver, far from it.

In IndyCar, defensive driving was considered blocking, although now, with a new Race Director, it isn't any more. In real racing, I don't like it, but in simracing, defensive driving banned could be more fun, as it promotes overtaking.

You really know how to push my buttons. Spa 1966 and Mosport Friday F2. Nuff said.

Racing with (or rather against) you is no fun, despite out similar pace. Discussing with you (or rather against) is no fun either. I may have performed some bone headed moves this season, but so do you, so don't attack me when your racing standards seem as bad as my own.

Also, your attack is completely off topic, which makes it pointless. It isn't about apologies or blame, it's about avoiding crashes.

No attack from me just defence in the face of continued and sustained attack for no good reason as far as I am concerned. My response to your direct and personal comment was hardly off topic. If it was not you at Aintree in the 69x race I apologise. As for the F2 race at Mosport I thought it was a good scrap but if you saw it differently I apologise again.

My initial comment didn't even involve you.

I don't usually look at the start of race replays.  By that I mean the practice, to make perfect. :D  But at Tuesdays Clermont race, I noticed a sneaky reset during practice.  Is this legal - has there been a rule change?  If not, what penalty is available, for cruel persons posting an incident report?  

This also happened at Zeltweg, where the same dubious deed was done.  It's an obvious advantage, so some clarity is called for.  

Chaps - most of this is nothing to do with the Mid Season review. I have quite enough to wade through already thanks.

Keep to the point please.

Personal rivalries are apt to intrude, but this would seem the spot to discuss all general racing matters.  With no guidance over this reset matter, shall we assume resets have become legal? 8) 

I thought I'd share my opinion on handicapping (not that I haven't in the past), because I think many people are missing some important bits.

First, the problem with handicapping by assigning cars to each driver is that the way GPL cars are, performance is very much connected to the type of track you race on. There is rarely a performance order of the cars that can be applied to all tracks, not even with original 67s. That's why I was always against that type of handicap - it was subjective, it was situational, it led to many incidents (e.g. fast driver in slow car vs. slow driver in fast car) and it distorted the championship standings.

Apart from performance issues, there is also the reliability aspect. This one goes way back to when we had pitstops and to some extent the token system. Let's take the 67 Honda as an example - it has potential to produce a very good lap time, especially on a fast track, but push it like that in a race and you're likely not going to see the chequered flag. Yet some people sometimes would get lucky and reach the finish. It's impossible to handicap such cars properly, because some would argue they're overhandicapped for the car's reliability, and other that they're underhandicapped for the car's performance. When you create a handicap system based on hotlap times alone, it's just not good enough.

In my opinion, and I've said it many times in the past, the most fair handicap system appears to be the one where you get limited car choice based on championship standings. Does it usually lead to the same drivers winning races? Yes, most of the time, but then again, do you really want to take away wins from those who deserve to have them? The idea of a handicap system is to keep gaps in races close and championship alive, and that's exactly what the standings-based car choice limitation did. I never quite understood what's with the almost fanatical denial of trying out that system with the 65 cars, yet nobody minded it was used for 66 and other divisions. 65 was such a mess for many years, by having people drive crappy cars and getting involved in unnecessary incidents, or being robbed of any real chance to fight for victories on some tracks. Yet it gave people who are normally mid-field, a relatively easy way of getting top 3 results, despite that they kept making obvious mistakes while driving. I've had some races where I've been inch-perfect in a BT7, yet someone in a faster car would finish ahead of me despite driving irregularly and sliding all around. This just never seemed right. How do you pass such a driver without taking massive risks and being exposed to other people's lack of ability?

Anyway, I hope for the sake of fairness and competitiveness, that some changes are made that should have been made long ago. Not that it concerns me directly, but it's a shame to see this topic arises again and again, year after year, and almost nothing is learned from people's experience each season. I know there are some who don't care about fairness and just want easy results, but should the league really cater to such kind of people?

Firstly, nice to hear from you Hristo.  I hope all is well, and you are still able to compete somewhere online  Yes, opinions vary on handicapping, just as handicapping itself varies, with varying degrees of success.  In my opinion, the idea is to mix up the faster and slower drivers, to increase the challenge for all.  I think most drivers want a challenge, and some variety to that challenge.  While some prefer something simpler.  Some spend many hours investing in a perfect setup, and perfect knowledge for each track.  And unexpected, and unpredictable reasons for having races ruined, after so much trouble, are very upsetting.  Those who simply come for some fun, and more realistic racing than the Ai can give them, probably want cars of a similar speed, because that makes the challenge more exciting.

In the real world, drivers usually drive the same car all year.  Unlike 2014, this usually meant different cars had an advantage at different tracks.   But overall, the best cars had the best chance for the championship.  In our world, a single assigned chassis, would mean the least work for our Moderators, on a race by race basis.  There'd be some variety in performance at different tracks, and a more colourful grid, with different shades of racing green. ;)  There would be accidents caused by different car and driver combinations, as with in any equalizing  handicap system.  It depends on how equalizing it is.  But with the same chassis driver combination all season, it's possible to learn how each behaves. 

Motor Racing should always have a random factor.  Predictable becomes boring.  Handicaps add interest.  Making them enjoyable for all is the biggest challenge.  Very few at Ukgpl seem interested in voicing their opinion, but expect moderators to choose the best system, to please the most drivers, and the most exciting competition for all.  Let's wish them luck ! :laugh:

You are right about the reset rule Martin but I would never enforce it at a long track such as Charade or Spa.

Fair enough, but without specifics, you will find competitors stretching the rules. :scared:

See R1 in Graduates Season 18 for an example of "stretching" the rules......  :whistling:

no rules stretched there , you got the start line tokens .

if you had been able to drive a bit you might have got more of an advantage , that said the token system does favour those that can race (above those that just roll over the line for startline tokens) . 

My thoughts, exactly. Add an internet-related mishap or two and it's really difficult to maintain motivation for further participation when you've only scored 3 times in a season, despite showing up every week.

I'm not the fastest, and I'm still making too many mistakes to expect to win championships, but I'm usually towards the sharp end. Facing a 0 points result week after week, with the majority of the incidents being out of your hands, as much as I love GPL and like you guys, is ****** frustrating.

Especially when stuff like Assetto Corsa is out, and your computer handles it wonderfully, and there are a whole whack of new leagues forming with good runners (that are inviting you)... :whistling:

It makes no sense to score points if you retire early in the race, especially if there's a low turn out. Failures, accidents and so on, are part of racing. Those things tend to even out over the course of a season, so it's the same for everyone. Any additional "bad luck" you may have is most likely your own doing, your own mistakes. As for people causing incidents, isn't that what the penalty system is for, to prevent them from happening in the future? If incidents keep on repeating, then obviously the system isn't working well enough in punishing those who are at fault.

As for new sims, there STILL isn't a replacement for GPL, incredible as it may seem. It's irrelevant how much better graphics, sound and FF new sims have, or the extra physical properties they simulate, nothing still gives the sense of driving an old F1 car like GPL does. This, IMO, will keep GPL going strong for at least a few more years to come.

Preaching to the converted. Participation should be rewarded as a priority to encourage people to turn up regularly. The 50% distance completion madness to score points should never have been implemented across all the championships in my opinion. I can only hope it is dispensed with next season.

Theory =/= reality.


Yup.


Please regale us with the tales of all those times you've driven an old F1 car.  ::)

I like the 50 % rule. It promotes more gentleman like races, although it usually takes some time before participants understand. After that, less impatient bonehead moves (or blatant blocking by the defending driver), more race craft, thrill and enjoyment.

I also hope the token system for divisions other than Graduates is still being looked at. As a first time participant in the F2 Division last weekend, seeing half the field in Matra MS7's was rather disappointing.

It is being looked at Tommie. F2 wil most prolly have way more diverse grids next season. :)

Great stuff! I also hope to graphically update all the cars before the end of the year so they look better :) . But it would be nice if someone would then actually drive it! Otherwise I'll only update the Matra MS7  :P .

I'd just like that add that, with more different cars on the grid, the grid will spread out a bit more. At Silverstone we had a full grid and except me and one or two others, everyone was within 2 seconds of the pole time! Very competitive, but a bit harsh on those who are just having fun but are not as fast, can't keep up and have nobody to race against (like me :) ).

It is likely that the 50% rule will stay in place. It has certainly promoted more careful driving in the Amateur 65s and people do need to adjust to drive for a finish. A second season should reveal whether drivers are willing to adjust. We will, however, also look at the penalty system in conjunction as it makes no sense for somebody to benefit from punting people off.

A compromise could be reached with this sort of rule. For example, the rule could say that you have to complete the first two laps to earn points. I think the pros already have enough incentive to race clean since they do not have a shift-R option.  :-\

I am not a friend of the 50% as it makes no difference to people not showing in the race and someone taken out innocent!
Look at e.g. Clives position in pros... :o
I don't think it makes experienced drivers changing their driving style, or uneperienced to do a mistake.
IMO we allready lost some drivers by this rule >:(

Nice idea BUT the reason that we have 50% is that this is set up in the scoring system so this is automatically calculated on import - the choice is 50% or nothing.

As for the rule itself.

I believe it has been beneficial for the less experienced drivers and it should make no difference to the Pros as a crash is terminal for them anyway. The loss of points is still an issue but would you really want to win the championship by managing to be the only one to make it though Parabolica after a mass crash, limp to the start line and retire on lap 2 but get fifty points? Surely those points are not equal to ones earned by nursing a sick car round?

Remember that "Hard cases make bad law"!

I will stick up a vote though and see how strong the feeling really is.

How would you like to lose (or win) a championship by being taken out (or your competition being taken out) by someone limping an uncontrollable car around on 3 wheels (or less) for half the race after a T1 incident?

Plus, it negates penalties. If no points are scored, loss of a position (or two or three) is meaningless (as has happened several times this season).

This 50% thing changes nothing.
Get in ya car, drive as fast as you can to the flag and try not to crash.

here is one for you with too much time on your hands; would any champion from any series from any season been different if the 50% rule were applied?

Which is why I said we would also look at the penalty system - or did you miss that?

Yes - take a look at the Novices trophy in Season 25.

Spa - Al gets 32 points from 3 completed laps out of 11. Without that Billy would have been champion. So, yes, it can make a difference.

I really didn't want to know that!

Thought you'd be pleased...

Bring on the vote please so we can have the opportunity to get rid of this rule once and for all or know that we are to be saddled with it forever.

For the last time its a complete practice killer for me when it comes to preparing for races. Very little done this season......and it showed  :laugh:

If the only way the 50% rule can work properly is to harshen up the penalties, can we do that instead of the 50% rule?
Would be nice to know the thoughts on how the penalties are going to be changed, before the vote.

 :offtopic:
As for the Dutch,
Has anyone ever seen Robert Fleurke and Arjen Robbin in the same room at the same time. hmmmm.

My alter ego!  ;D

He grew up about 10km where I live, and started his career at the FC (Groningen). He might have a certain image, but actually he's a very down to earth and nice guy, and never forgets his roots! His style of football resembles that of mine (not the other way around, lol!). Used to be a fast paced left-footed winger with a striking shot, in my days! Maybe he watched me play/score in his younger days...  8)

Penalty points - I believe the recent trend  in Moderation is being too kind, with too few penalty points where needed.  If driving is generally good, this is nice.  Where driving is bad, a Moderator should fully apply the law.

The 50% rule attempts to make us drive slower.  I don't like driving slower.  Grandma would like us to drive slower.  This rule has made more unhappy drivers than happy ones.  And I seriously doubt it's given our overlords much freedom, from debris inspection duties. >:( :D

I agree with Cookie - I haven't seen much more caution until half way. And crashing early still limits how many points you can score - usually you'll be giving up a lot of points to the winner. 32 points for quarter distance.. just sounds to me like there weren't many people in the race - that's still a 4th place. I've done the various limping around to get to half way too.. most notably once looking at the leader lap count instead of my own, and stopping on the half distance lap before the line at Jops! It's funny to jump through a hoop, then miss the hoop entirely.. :(

I agree that we really need to reward participation, as we aren't going to be getting many new drivers now and thus need to encourage regulars to keep coming back, to keep the championships healthy. It's admirable to try something new, to try to increase driving standards/competition for the championship, but we can probably achieve that via setup advice/sharing/close racing practice, without the added complication for the mods. Changing penalties and more things to fit, sounds like another complication to me. If we keep 50% as well, then is it worth changing the points system, from 50-down to something like the old F1 points systems? 10 down and no points below 6th..  :-\ (I'm waiting for someone to suggest Bernie's medal system  ;D)

On the F2s.. a good system will help.. I took the wrong car to one fun race, as I thought they were all the same except the slow one or two (and I forgot which they were  :laugh:).

PS. Did I get removed from the F2 Grid B Standings? My points in that championship have disappeared. It could be a mistake - the one I originally clicked to enter had been reshuffled into Grid A, but I was allocated to Grid B and thus was in both tables (but only racing/scoring in B) until recently. Also, now I notice that I am the Blue Moose representative in Grid B. The split adds the use of the team element, e.g. team drivers on both grids etc. which is another new aspect to the championship.

We've decided to ban you for all current UKGPL leagues, Iesty, because you're too rusty.

And Jethro, shut up, don't tell me how to drive.

I don't mind the 50% rule, especially since I like the way the old F1 points system was. I wouldn't mind seeing it go away if only the top 6 finishers scored points.

what ever are the rules , I'm gonna race whith UKGPL for the next season ...... :-*

 . . . . . . . So we will discover if Magic rules. :clown:

Me too, I'll try to catch as many races as my free time allows :) .

Another point, can we try some different tracks? It seems we mostly use the same tracks on line. It would be fun to try something different. VIR was fun :) . GPLBrazil are now running Punta Indio, could be interesting in 1965 and F2 cars :) . Or maybe Enna. I recently tried King Raceway for the first time, a real keeper! I haven't run Tandil yet but that seems like a real blast as well. Or perhaps an airfield track like Wigram :) . There are a couple of italian tracks that also look interesting, like Parco Sempione 1937. There are more than 500 tracks out there but we always seem to be stuck with the same pool of about 30 tracks :) . There are many tracks that were released before my time, at around 2003-2004, that never really had a chance to shine because it seemed like a new track would come out every day.

Just give the gpltd a run with a track list sorted by most fun, and pick a few tracks not run yet in GPL :) . I see Urbanya, Birmingham, Varosliget etc etc. So many track out there and we are stuck with Brands Hatch and Monza all the time :P .

Small warning, Polar Blue's tracks are very nice but rarely free from icy temperatures when running online :) .

Tommie.