SimRacing.org.uk

Season 28 Professionals Trophy - Round 2 – Monaco

To mark the 50th anniversary of the 1965 Formula 1 season we will run the 10 original championship races and for round 2 we visit Monaco. Circuit de Monaco is a street circuit laid out on the city streets of Monte Carlo and La Condamine around the harbour of the principality of Monaco. It is commonly referred to as "Monte Carlo" because it is largely inside the Monte Carlo neighbourhood of Monaco. A very challenging tight twisty circuit, few opportunities for passing but plenty of chances to hit the scenery. You’ve heard this before but please take care, especially on Lap 1!

The full time drivers can start to practice as soon as the server is available.  Reserve drivers can also join as soon as the server becomes available but must leave the server with 35 minutes of qualifying left, for a total of 5 minutes; this will allow any remaining full timers to join.  If there is enough space on the grid, the reserve drivers will be able to rejoin when there are 30 mins of qualifying left.  

Please restrict chat to pit messages including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

This season, races are to be run at 60 frames per second – please use this patch 60fpsV2newmod (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season27/60fps/).

Drivers must complete 50% of each race to score.

Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL_8
IP address = look in iGOR
Race date = Tuesday 24-03-2015
Time = 21:00 UK time (21:00 GMT)
Track = Papyrus Original
Race length = 33 laps
Variant = 1965
60fps patch used = 60fpsV2newmod
Damage Model = Pro
Qualifying time = minimum of 30 minutes

Password see above (#post_event_password)
Replay will be here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season28/Pros/)

Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page.

The red zone will be fully moderated for lap 1 only. For this race, the red zone will be from the start to the exit of Portier. Other moderation will be on reported incidents only.

Don't See myself Racing tonite, no Internet Connection

My word!  What a superb drive from Tim!  Congrats, man!  You really had the package today.  Good car + determination + monster cahones.  :)

A good P2 for Iestyn but being a bit stingy on fuel cost him a chance for the victory.  Good drive notwithstanding.

And Evil!  Woohoo!  A splendid P3 finish and podium in the little BT7.  Great job.

I only practiced briefly pre-race and got the P261 into good enough shape for the race.  Not tops by any means...my PB's in other GP65 cars are substantially faster...but it was OK.

I shan't comment on the Lap01 fracau exiting Ste. Devote as the moderators will have to make a ruling on the cause but the effect was sad in that Axel was an instant DNF.

It was a big surprise to find Robert next to stopped coming off Portier on Lap01 and I slipped by for position but that set the stage for a very enjoyable race for the next two dozen laps.  Along the way, I came across Arf facing traffic exiting Portier and he would shortly retire with an off in Tabac.  Rocket Ronnie, too, game to grief with a couple of wall-bangers that saw a wheel running down the hill towards Mirabeau.  I came across this shortly thereafter and jigged to miss it.  Forgot completely that at that stage, it's just a image without collision properties.

Robert's recovery from his spin was rapid and soon, he was directly on my tailpipes.  For the next 24 laps, I held off his advances and it was really keen.  Recall the GP of Monaco some years back when David Coulthard was pinned behind a much slower Arrows car for the longest time.  Deja vu all over again.  :)  Ultimately, he feinted to the left and out of my mirrors on the exit of the chicane and I felt obliged to leave some room at Tabac.  I had a somewhat compromised pass through and exit from Tabac as a result of that and he gunned me down on the straight following with the run to Gas Works hairpin.  Hmmm...  Not the most kosher of tactics there, RF, in taking advantage of the lack of peripheral vision in GPL.  Still...  A pass is a pass is a pass, I guess.

Spent the remainder of the race just chasing Robert home as he zeroed in on Clive but time ran out.

Grats to the podium especially Clive in the BT7, great drive!

I had the car and race pace to trouble Tim from second position but not the concentration. One wrong gear change too many eventually led to a missing wheel and race over. Well done again Tim, pole position and a flag to flag finish, a deserved winner.

Incredible frustrating race for me, Monaco is always tough on me having to run 10:1 instead of the normal 17:1 strg ratio with my 270degree wheel, to get around the tight turns...

Already went wide towards Portier with Ray on my inside on Lap 1, kind of gave half room, went wide on cold tires and hit the wall. Bounced back and Ray put me into a spin (which was my fault, nothing Ray could do). Glad everyone got by.

Then got stuck behind Doni, car was a bit bent up hitting barriers again and again, and my gearings seemed off as Doni was able to out accelerate me. Sorry for the tap into Loews, that was clearly my mistake, but glad you could save it and I lifted to be sure. I felt you tried everything to keep me behind, and I don't think it's fair to say my pass was not kosher. It was as clean a pass you can see at Monaco...especially seeing the replay from your cockpit...I did clearly nothing wrong there...

Great job tho Doni! Yes, felt like DC being behind Bernoldi :P

Grats Tim on a faultless drive, Iestyn for his fast lap, and Clive for his podium in the BT7, especially when I didn't deserve a podium with my drive ;)

Good job finishers and commiserations to the retirements, sad to see teamie Axel being out already after 1 turn, not sure what happened tho :(

Out dragged Dave Rainier off the line :) but he got through the turn one trouble better than me :( so settled down chasing the field. Can't remember how I got to 9th out of 10 runners but I maintained it until I clipped the harbour chicane & buried it in the harbour wall straw bales. When it came out a wheel was missing & a small fire in the car followed. I briefly thought about leaving it to see if the whole harbour wall straw could be set on fire ;D. Only joking - GPL is realistic but not THAT realistic.

Obviously FMG's Honda is the latest full works spec job whereas mine behaves like the spare(in my hands anyway) ;D - 3 seconds faster in a 90 second lap - unbelievable. Anyway well done FMG & the podium & anyone who finished here where there is no room for the smallest lapse of concentration.

Norm H

Firstly thank you to everyone on the Congrats - although I must say they feel a little on the undeserved side as Iestyn was able to make clear in the race that he was the faster out of the two of us. I mearly had the wider car and the advantage of being in front  ;)

While i'm still shocked at recording pole I was over the moon at my qualifying time - over half a second up on my old PB from 5 years ago despite the time off over the last year or two. I'm seriously wondering if I should put my current improvements in pace (Ignoring East London as I was much slower there  ::) ) on the new diff for my track car - it's basically the same type used by the cars in GPL and has forced me to learn properly how to drive with it  :)

Onto the race Rob very nearly got me at the start - we seemed to react at about the same moment but his BRM hooked up much better and made up some time on me on the run to the 1st turn, where I promptly ran slightly wide in my attempts at out braking him  :-[
I originally thought some of my odd lines were responsible for Robs' accident - and have to admit releaf after watching the replay to see it wasn't me!
After his visit to the harbour wall and the spin from Ray I found myself with an ever increasing gap as Ray tried to hold off Iestyn in his flying BRM.
At one point I was up to a 7 second lead according to the pit boards and then promptly span exiting Tabac (Lap 5 for anyone wanting a laugh). After that I was working hard to maintain the now 3 second gap backwards as Iesty let off the pressure a bit to allow Ray to put some decent laps in.
This all lasted until somewhere around lap 10/15 as i remember it when suddenly Iestyn appeared in 2nd on prib and started taking chunks out of my lead. By half distance he was on my gearbox and annoying me  ;D
I made a number of small mistakes during this but somehow kept it together - Helped by Iestyn dropping back for 5 laps or so to try and soften me up before a last dash as we approached the 30 lap point.
Eventually i was saved by the penny pincher's at BRM who refused to put more than 50 Francs of 5 Star into Iestyns' car leaving my clear on the last lap - obviously I was unaware of this new event unfurling behind me so pressed on hard to keep the new gap as large as possible - nearly crashing in Casino square as a direct result  :-X

After what felt like the entire evening I crossed the line, still at the front of the pack with Iesty just behind - well done, you deserved a win more than me in my opinion after that drive! 8)

Equal congratulations to Clive peddling the BT7 into 3rd and to all the other finishers. Commiserations to the victims  :)

As a bonus I also discovered that I have a pair of world records (different mods and circuits) from when i updated my times on GPLRank, annoyingly 1 of them has been mine to claim for about 4 years now but I didn't know  :oops: So as I still have the replay of that session I've sent that one in. i swear the other was a race here (F2 at Hockenheim) but can't for the life of me find any evidence of it occurring in the race history or even my replay collection  ???

This occurred in the red zone and I hope the moderators look at this just to clarify that I DID NOT SPIN ANYONE. Robert goes wide by himself, bounces back off the wall into my path and spins away due to contact with me not the other way round as seems to be suggested above.

Next thing you know, someone will be saying I blatantly spun him  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Not implying you did it Ray - As you say he went wide on his own - you just happened to be the one who caught the bounce :)

Ray, it's just a matter how you define it. We both touched and it put me in a spin. It was clearly my own fault tho, my mistake. There was nothing you did wrong.

Is this definition more satisfactory?

It does not matter what I think its what the moderators think. My concern is that when two illustrious drivers like yourself and Tim, who I enjoy racing with when I get the chance immensely, allude to the fact that I spun someone, the moderators show no hesitation in apportioning the blame to me.

As to whether I think I had any part top play in your spin, which I don't, let me answer you like this. Check out lap 3 at Monsanto in the Historics the other night when my race was ended by a totally out of control Iestyn. Or do you think I spun him? I notice Iestyn has said absolutely nothing about this race on the forums all week despite an excellent comeback to finish in second place. I wonder if he is worried that I might submit an incident report? Obviously I won't be as I don't. This was just an unfortunate tangle that happens sometimes in my opinion and I would be giving the moderation team yet another excuse to find fault where there is none.

On a lighter note, nice to see Iestyn turning in yet another FL. Absolutely nothing to do with his sub 0.1sec upshift/downshift times  :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Moderation published. 

Ronnie, as you can see you were not blamed for any contact.  I can assure you the moderators are totally impartial and I'm completely happy for any of my mod reports to be scrutinised for fairness.  Please don't think the moderators are being harder on you than they are on anyone else.  You have been putting in some fantastic performances recently and we don't want to spoil your enjoyment by appearing to single you out for extra attention during the moderation.  Concentrate on your racing and trust the moderating team.  Good luck for the rest of the season.

Yeah I would love to Phil, but you all just keep giving me crap like the latest incident report for the 69x at Silverstone. Like I said in my report response to this one URINE EXIT! Do you guys even look at replays??? The incident if you want to call it one was caused by the driver on pole blowing his engine on the start line and he does not even figure in the incident according to you guys?????
I'm sorry but the evidence just keeps mounting up against the current moderation team with moderators and team mates often getting the benefit of the doubt unlike others. Oh yeah and I'm still waiting to see what you guys do about the pit lane overtaking at Stardust in the Works race!!!

I just wanted to shed some light on the fact that the 69x moderator is new to the team, and perhaps it is not fair to criticize the entire moderation team because one moderator is in training.

I don't believe that I ever received a notification on the T1, Lap01 melee.  I realize that it's under full moderation but c'mon...

I object to the ruling as a lack of caution...not on my part...seems to be the root cause.  :(

The "involved drivers" are selected by the person submitting the incident report, not the moderation team.

No problem Walter. If anything I welcome your presence on the moderation team as with the single exception of Paul I feel it certainly needs a shake up. I suspect that it is you being trained when in my opinion Paul and you need to be training the others, just my opinion as a driver.

Already I am being forced to defend myself this season with only 2 races gone in the various series. I have collected full penalty points where other drivers for the similar incidents have not, is that fair?

This biased moderation has been going on too long despite assurances that I was wrong and everything was okay. Please name me any other driver who has been moderated on three separate incidents in recent seasons which were not in the red zone and not even reported by anybody. In other words the hard pressed poor moderator took the time and effort to trawl through the replays to find them! For the record my problem with the moderation team has never been being reported or penalised at times. But is it a level playing field? Over several seasons now others have consistently been favoured and/or forgiven for identical incidents and worse still have been allowed to get away with rule breaking where there is no margin for discussion. I'm not the only driver who is being treated unfairly in my opinion but I am the only one speaking out and will continue to do so where I feel it is justified.

Dean, this incident occurred in the red zone. Assuming the moderators did not report this having looked at it then I assume either yourself or Piero felt so aggrieved about something that one of you reported it. If that is the case then please assume that "you guys" includes yourselves when it comes to the ability to review replays to determine all drivers involved. No offence to yourself or Piero intended, just an observation on my part.

Doesn't smell that way to me.


FWIW, my observation was that nobody did anything worthy of penalization. GPL has in the past decided that my engine deserved to explode on the grid (despite not exceeding even half revs), so even holding Iestyn at fault is a bit of a stretch.

An offset in the grid (so cars are not lined up directly behind the car in front) may have helped here.

Oh, and moderators? Despite being involved in this incident (the Monaco one, not the Silverstone) which was quite plainly in the red zone and automatically under investigation, I never received an invitation to comment prior to moderation being published.

Ronnie

I think I'm the common denominator in the 3 things you have mentioned.  

1.  Last season I fully moderated the Works races so every incident was moderated.  That is why you were picked up for incidents that were not in the red zone and not reported by any other driver.  I wasn't picking on you I fully moderated all incidents.

2.  This season I'm moderating the 65 Pro series. I'm only moderating red zone and reported incidents this season.
In Round 1 moderated the start line incident you were involved in.  Gave you a penalty.
In Round 1 0h2m42s.  You clipped Doni on the right rear which probably contributed to his engine damage.  Wasn't reported so I didn't moderate it (can't be accused of picking on you there ;))
In Round 2 moderated the incident at Portier.  Recognised some great driving on your part, very good line through corners - no penalty.

3.  On the mods forum I gave some advice to Walter regarding collecting all the facts on an incident.  It is better, although not necessary, to ask the drivers for their version of events that way there is less chance of missing something that may come to light in an appeal if there is one.  So for S28 69x R2, Walter is only asking for driver input, he has not published a moderator's report.  How do you know what Walter is thinking?  Why do you think you are being singled out?  You are keen to express your views on the public forum, so why not in incident report where you can say what you think about any other driver without causing arguments on the forum?  The moderator can take everyone's views into account without the need for any unpleasant public exchanges.


By biased moderating are you referring to the fact that we do not moderate all incidents.  I have to agree with you if that is what you are getting at.  However it all depends on the type of league the drivers want.  Personally I would like to see all incidents moderated as was the case several years ago.  But this is hard work and is not sustainable.  We do a lot more races now with lots of different mods so the league is run differently.  If we had no moderation at all the league would risk descending into a farce, with bad driving going unpunished which would spoil the racing for everyone.  So we have a compromise, we moderate red zone and reported incidents as a minimum.  Inevitably that means some drivers will get away with bad driving if they are not reported. That is the price we pay for making the moderating workload tolerable.  

So, if by biased moderating you mean:

Some drivers are allowed to get away with bad driving - then the answer is to report more incidents and less drivers will get away with bad driving.

I'm picking on you personally - I can assure you I'm not and the moderation of the Pro rounds this season shows that.

Inconsistency - we always try to apply the penalty guidelines (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/penalties) fairly.   Anybody who thinks there has been a mistake can appeal to the Chief Mod.  He can check the penalty guidelines have been followed and amend a report where necessary.

Doni, Dean - yes you are right I didn't ask for driver input but you obviously realised there was an incident so there was nothing to stop you submitting an incident report and saving me the hassle of submitting one and asking for your opinion. 

I'm not going to get silly about this but surely you must realize that the moderators are stuck between a rock and a hard place.  There are complaints about being asked for driver input and then complaints about not being asked for driver input.  The discussion is descending into moderator bashing which isn't helpful.  Follow the rules, use the incident reporting system and submit an appeal to the Chief Moderator if the you think the penalty guidelines have not been followed.

Above all stop believing in a moderator conspiracy, there isn't one.  Why would there be?  Are you suggesting drivers want to be moderators so they can bend the rules so they can win?  Where is the fun in that?  The only advantage in being on the moderating team is that you get to select the tracks for the season.  Can't say it is sufficient compensation for all the hassle.

Repeating myself here but if you are not happy please submit an appeal to the Chief Mod in the form of a PM.

OK, Phil.  Thanks.  I will submit an appeal to the ruling on me.

And if we here in GPLand think that we are hard done by with bad-ass driving and moderation, you should see what happened to me and the resultant moderator's call in the March 26 Png Zandvoort race with the UKPnG.  It was put down to a 'racing incident'.  With the kind of reckless driving I was subjected to, it was like a Friday night pickup race.

I was #2 in the points there but I've vowed not to go back.  EVER!

Phil this has been going on for far longer than one or two seasons. As for being picked on for incidents not in the red zone and not reported, they have involved more than one member of the moderation team. This is not an indictment of you personally. I race in many series as do many others and come under the scrutiny of all the moderation team.  

You ask why I don't bother with the incident report system. Well moderations like this made me wonder if it was worth the effort. Lets see, it was my fault because I could not see in my mirrors backwards up a hill over a blind crest and all the cars that came over it could see a yellow flag warning them to slow down, but they don't and in any case the flag can be ignored by them because the moderator says so. Very fair and even handed awarding of penalty?

Ronnie's rejoins after the incident - he keeps tight to the left & all the following cars which got caught up in this really should have taken greater notice of the waved yellow flags. Ronnie did not noticeably pause to check the track was clear. The corner obscured the following cars from view but more care could have been taken.
 The following driver's are technically due a caution for failing to abide by yellow flags - but this report is long enough already.
•Ronniepeterson (Ronnie Peterson) — warning — Inconsiderate rejoin.

The serious point here is that if simple incontrovertible facts from my report are going to be ignored, then what is the point in making them? This is not the only reason and I have discussed these in depth previously with the moderation team and tried to move on. Lets hope the moderation team can as well.

Someone above made a good point which I and others have made before. Space out the starting grid. This rewards good qualifying pace and at least gives slow starters a chance to survive being hit from behind and fast starters a chance to pass without being blocked. On the subject of the start at Silverstone, Dean, I am not looking for the pole sitter to be penalised. I'm just pointing out that to ignore his involvement is strange.

Happy racing everyone.

Ronnie

I think you are taking things a little too personally.  The incident you are referring to was a long time ago (Season 24 F2 Round 8 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=389&theme=6)).


You were only given a caution and a warning, not a penalty.  A lot of the argument at the time was with another driver (Hristo) not the moderators.  Using the incident reporting system would have prevented a lot of unnecessary unpleasant posts.  I don't have the replay to check but the ruling looks pretty fair.  The point of the moderation was to learn something.  Did you learn anything?  What was the statement "Allow sufficient room in contested situations" trying to say?  Does this (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/overlap) help?

All I can say is don't take things personally, use the incident reporting system and try to learn from incidents.  It happens to everyone not just you.  I was involved in an incident in the 69x race at Silverstone. If I get criticised I won't be happy but I'll accept it and move on.  Will I learn something? Yes.  Will I bear a grudge? No.  

Well said that man  :)

Your response is worthy of a politician totally off point. You asked why I don't bother with the reporting system which I gave up on a long time ago. Hence why this incident is from around the time I stopped using it.  Instead of trying to change the subject deal with the actual incident I mentioned.

THIS IS TO DO WITH YELLOW FLAGS OR AM I MISSING SOMETHING!

I received a penalty point, fair enough but why not the drivers who flouted the flag. Did the rules not apply to everyone then?

If not then what about now? The reason I say now is that nothing has changed, in my opinion, over the course of the seasons. Bring it right up to date with the latest start line incident you have found at the Silverstone 69x race. Just as the moderation team did not see (pardon the pun) the yellow flags as relevant in the long lost incident above, so this time they do not consider the pole sitter who blew his engine on the start line worth asking what they thought about any start line incident?

No more to say here other than I cannot wait for the report and whats holding up the Works Stardust report  :laugh:

No more please. Lets just accept our difference of opinion off track but enjoy our racing on track.