SimRacing.org.uk

Season 28 – Round 3 - 69 Extra Trophy - Montjuich

For the 3rd round of this series we travel to Catalunya Barcelona.

Montjuich Parque is a street circuit on Montjuich mountain above Barcelona. It is a twisty tricky circuit that was the site of the tragic 1975 Spanish Grand Prix. Many drivers felt that the circuit was unsafe, and two time world champion Emerson Fittipaldi withdrew in protest before the start of the race. On lap 26 the Embassy Hill-Lola car of Rolf Stommelen left the track, killing five people. The race was subsequently stopped at half distance and half points awarded, with Jochen Mass being recorded as the winner. Lella Lombardi became the first female driver to score world championship points, taking 0.5 points for 6th place. Formula One never returned to the circuit after the accident.


69X use the 60fpsV1 (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season27/60fps/) patch.

The race will be run under INT rules and you have a free car choice.
You can do 1 shift+r with a consecutive stop and go in the pits !

Handicapping
Drivers will have a free car choice
BUT
For the Light drivers: Each car can be driven only once in this season!

Driver lists and explicit rules can be found on the championship page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=480&theme=6)

Race List	=	IGOR
Server	=	UKGPL_8
IP Address	=	look at IGOR
Race date	=	29-03-2015
Qualification Time	=	~20:45  UK time -> 45min
Race Time	=	race starts at 21:30 UK time
Track	=	Montjuich (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Tracks/Montjuich/)
Variant	=	69X
Damage Model	=	INT
Race length	=	~50 min -> 31 laps
Replay	=	you will get here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season28/69Xtra/)

The red zone will be fully moderated for lap 1 only. For this event the red zone will be from the start to the exit of Chapel on the first lap. Other moderation will be on reported incidents only.  However any incidents that occur in the red zone that are not reported by the drivers will be reported by the moderator.

Please restrict chat to emergency messages only including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

The full time drivers can start to practice as soon as the server is available.  Reserve drivers can also join as soon as the server becomes available but must leave the server with 30 minutes of qualifying left, for a total of 5 minutes; this will allow any remaining full timers to join.  If there is enough space on the grid, the reserve drivers will be able to rejoin when there are 25 mins of qualifying left.  


GLA

WE USE PASSWORD FOR TRAINING SERVER! = 60fpsV1

doh!!! quit when i got tagged on lap 1...now i see that we had a shift/R available!!!   :-\

Looks like some server trouble here.. about 20 minutes ago F1Legends 3 servers quit mid-last lap at Brno 49 (Greg 1st, Me 3rd :)).. come to iGOR... ukgpl_8 disappears... comes back a few times.. then it shows 19/20 and 30 mins to go.. I'm thinking a similar crash and relaunch.. but now I see Clive's message.. anyway Sam Blood, Greg and I could not join in the end. Reminds me of the 65 East London oddities ??? Montjuic 69x I can understand, as it must be a big load for the server!

There was also 2 ronnies on the server ;D. Four candles anyone? :D

Too many hot heads tonight.  Saw a massive pileup after T1 so stopped and waited for it to clear but someone must have done a Shift R and respawned on top of me.  So I had to take a shift R.  Got going only to get to the start line at the end of lap 1 to find someone parked across the finish line.  There was plenty of space for me to drive by on the right but whoever it was didn't see me and drove straight into me.  Car wrecked and no more shift Rs so had to quit.

Great comeback race Bob, sorry about the tangle.

Screen freeze while on pole in qualifying. Blew engine while leading with two laps to go. Screen freeze on last sector of last lap. Sometimes these things happen.

Grats to I assume Bob, Tim and Piero.

2nd time I have tried to post, so keeping it brief.

Tim, thanks for great race.

Kimi Raikonen- thanks for going wide in T1 today - gave me the idea to do the same and appears to have paid off.

Server - thanks for screwing me up...... screen freeze a few laps from the end when I was certain to finish no worse than 4th.....

Sorry Bob for wrecking you , was still smarting from being bumped on the L1 fiasco and didnt realise how far behind  was , honestly didn't expect to be getting lapped so early in the race and didnt really see you untill too late. Glad to see you got re instated after the fastest pit in & SG I have ever seen , watched  your recovery drive ,  great racing with ronnie , pity his engine didnt last .
Grats for the win and all the other finishers .

Will submit Incident report

Nope either I froze or the server did about 50m from the line on what I believe was the last lap.
Really annoying as I worked myself to death for that after the SR/SnG.

Had a great battle with Arf for a few laps until I finally got clear and pulled away, made great progress and even passed Ronnie during a moment of misfortune putting me in 2nd.

That would have been a great replay to watch as well :(

That was me, Phil, sorry.   :(

I was also caught in the lap 1 melee, reset, got going, messed up pit entry so I bailed on that attempt, but got all discombobulated and ended up with my nose in the fence. Trying to extricate myself from bad situation, I made yours worse.  :(

Almost collected Andreas on my second attempt at S&G end of lap 2, so sorry for that, too.

Trying to get back up to fight Andreas for 11th, but having to back off to let leaders thru, guess I worked engine too hard and it expired lap 20, bah.

Fun track, too bad it always ends in tears for some (and usually most).

Yup I had the same , waiting for the carnage to clear and dust to settle then "Bang" some one in mclaren re set right on top of me so had to re set and pit in which put me in a bad place . freeze in practise , got back in for the race start with hopes of running the distance and picking up a place or two as others dropped out . some hopes  :'(

Had a screen freeze/lockup at the end of the qually session.  I suspected that Bernie had been chucked out at the same time;  was good to see he made it back in again for the main event.  Although,  was expecting to see more of him;  but  I suppose circumstances took care of that.

Also, had another screen freeze/lockup on the last corner of what I think was to be my last lap of the race.  As it turned out;  it was my last lap of the race!
At that point,  I was on for 10th (although 2 laps down) 70yards behind Marco.

I tried to hang back for any pileup at L1T1,  but it seemed all good!  Then it all had clearly kicked off under the tree cover in the next section.

We lucky to have not require the shift-R,  so not taking a stop & go meant I was misplaced.  Tried to keep out of the way when the lights came up & also for any lapping cars;  although sometimes they did just seem to come from nowhere.  So apologies if there were any misunderstandings out there.

No *personal* replay, so no official timing for this track yet.  Maybe another time then!


Cheers all, good luck mod team.
Dave.

The server ran fine until the end and saved the replay  ;)

I did lengthen the loose grid to 10m what seemed to work for T1, but the melee was a turn later ::)

We knew this track will make troubles, but it would be a shame to not race here...

Martin is the last driver not lapped by Bob!

Congrats Bob, Tim, and Ray!

It's a shame I missed the fun. I had the 312 down to 27.2 with room for improvement in qualifying and the race.

Iestyn described what I was seeing too.

Later.

No problem, it is to be expected at this track.  There is no run off in most places and the armco means crashes will leave debris all over the track.  As Cookie says, Monjuich is such an iconic track we have to use it for the 69s.  But it is a bad track for on-line racing unless drivers are very very careful.

Fair enough Cookie. I'm aware it's also extra work to prepare grids for certain 69x tracks.. it's not like the mods don't have enough to do already :P. In this case.. it's a big jump... to a tightening T1.. then a funnel downhill into a single file T2/3/4...

Looks like the two Ronnies I could see on Igor were in fact two evilclives ;D and a ghost baab.. just one of those things that you can't avoid when the server doesn't pick up your re-entry with the same car :(

I verified the results.

Tim, Ray and Piero disconnected at 0:46:39 simultaneous !

Tim was 100m before the finish line  :o

I have watched each car in the final lap :-[

The server results are correct  :'(

Rock on Martin  8)

Bit of a laffer that but it counts.  :)

Congrats to Bob, Martin and Tim on the podium finishes.

I was flung over the grail in the Lap01 mega-shunt and forgot about the allowable reset til much time had lapsed.  That dropped me to dead last but I had fun trying to catch up and am pleased to see that I scored the 5th fastest lap despite logging only 10 before calling it quits.  I was just warming up!  :D

Thanks to DC and Deaner for the wave-bys.

Interesting race for a lap or so, then rather lonely, which had me asking if the Ai would not have been, more exciting and safer.

For those wondering about the cause of their demise, amidst the early Armco, a red-misted driver, decided to place his car in danger 3 times, with 3 collisions caused, and each one avoidable.  Mass destruction was only achieved at the 3rd attempt.  So poor marks scored for style, but maximum for effect.  :o

I was luckier than some, to sit and survive the impatient buffetting, and continue unscathed.  No complaints about the transportation, which earned me a safe 5th place.  A 2nd on the final scorecard is no celebration, when gained by such momentous, first and last moment misfortune!  

My 2nd Ukgpl race this Season.  Removed from the track at turn 2, 1st race, and almost a repeat here.  Stretched grid so didn't see the starters flag.  50% needed to score points to upgrade skill levels, and if not, add to annoyance for Championship contenders.  A spot of disco fever . . . .  I'll give it another go sometime.  ;D

oh dear!  I have not seen any replays yet, but it looks like I was involved in something that snowballed into chaos on lap 1.

I recall avoiding a couple of cars going into T1 that appeared to have come together, so I took a wide line and was aware of someone else also going around the outside. As we exited T1, two cars ahead touched and I kept to the right to avoid  them. One car went left into the armco and was struggling for control, so I aimed to the right, and what looked like clear air, through the kink down to T2.
Just when I thought I had threaded my way through the danger zone and could get on with my race...I was flipped upside down and spun around several times.
Unaware that I had the option of Shift/R I was pounding the "Esc" key to try and get my car out of the way.  But I am sure I was hit a couple of times before I got clear.
If I was at fault, I apologise for spoiling anyone's fun.

Looks like I was quite fortunate not racing to avoid the chaos last night! If UKGPL9 would be required I am happy to make it available, my evenings are about ending near 11pm anyway so no problem with me!

Maybe not a bad idea to split the grid for the next race at Monaco ::)

No worries regarding the tangle Ray, I think I was more at fault than you.

I don't usually like this circuit, but perhaps I should change my view after this race  :P  I had a disco in qual so wasn't sure what'd happen in the race.  I finally managed to rejoin under a different name and set a reasonable qual time.  I did a praccy race with Arf and seemed to go okay, but wasn't sure what the rest of you would manage.

As Bernie mentioned, in the race I tripped over him at the end of lap three, I committed to go right but you obviously hadn't seen me...unfortunate for both of us, more so for you since it ended your race. 

The rest of the race was pretty good, followed Johnny for a few laps before he obligingly ploughed through some straw bales, Arf left me plenty of room a lap or two later and then I chased Ronnie down.  Unfortunately we did make contact with about four to go, after which the win didn't seem possible as I had to reverse, etc, but a lap or two later Ray's engine popped and he lost it into T1.

Sorry to see so many disco.

Cheers for the racing, Bob.

For me, it is better to delete MONACO, and put some good TRACK, no roads for prams.

I know you qualified that with a ::)    -  but...

How would that work out then?  If that's potentially a light/heavy split;  there doesn't actually seem to be a published list?
Although presumably,  from looking at the championship page/vehicle - it's at least DR/Phil/me?

Cheers,
Dave.

Personally from a racing point of view I would prefare mixed grids for this series , gives us slowbies a target to aim for (not that type of target Martin  ;) ) we can learn a lot from racing with the "Cream " .

I dont see Monaco being a problem , its simply a matter of racing to the limitations of the track , perhaps a bit more caution on Lap1 and by those lapping as well as those being lapped

Also think having a separate server for heavies would result in some pretty thin grids  :)

I was convinced that they have no responsibility for the incident that caused the distastro after the start, I watched the replay and unfortunately I saw that I cut the way for those who followed me.
Please believe that I started thinking just be careful not to cause injury to anyone.
I apologize to all my colleagues, I decided to solve my problem of side view the next opportunity will leave in F10 in order to see better, I hope will serve

Hello and thanks to all

All of us will make a problem sometime.  At Montjuic and Monaco it will be a BIG problem!

Do drivers use Pribluda for checking distances behind at the start of a race?  I don't have it installed, as it's not only unrealistic, but seems suicidal for this on a tight, twisting track.  F10 is also unrealistic, but if it reduces a Prib. addiction, it's not all bad. :D

Both recent pileups I've acquired on my nose, were caused by a lane change without carefully signaling.        

with 2 grids  does not solve the problem,  rather it doubles............maybe a solution is rolling start, forbidden to overtake on the first lap

Surely the starts are also part of the challenge (particularly if they don't go quite so well!) ?   Surely a good thing in this race it that the pileup did not happen at T1, where everyone pretty much has to come to a standstill & crawl round there.  Probably not the case at most tracks?

I think I'd hate to see rolling starts introduced to the open-wheel series.   Even a no-overtaking zone from the start until after T1/T2 would be better;  but there surely should not be the need for that either?    Everyone is probably entitled to a mishap or two  - to a certain degree.  Red-zone is moderated anyway;  advice/reprimands should be handed as appropriate.


Otherwise, sure stick us not so accomplished chaps on our own small grid  - but we'd probably prefer to be in the race right from the start (although, yes - it's a long race & can't be won at the first corner,  just lost...).

Cheers,
Dave.

Good to see some thoughts and opinions, as that's what a forum should be for.  A reminder here, that in the late 1960's, Grand Prix still started 3 and 4 abreast.  A strong sense of survival was used to prevent anatomical derangement.  Penalty points for the loss of arm or leg, were not generally needed. 

Not many here get Online to practice at each track, before a big race.  I think a practice race start or 2 could help decide which moves are safe to make.  It's important drivers doing this are friendly, so that mistakes can be made without anger.  There's more to discover by leaving the serious racing, for the big race.

By sounding so learned, it's probably my turn to cause chaos next!   :euro:

IMO the best solution is to have loose grids, rolling starts or no overtaking zones are too unrealistic.  I know we already have loose grids but it would appear they are not loose enough.  However, there are 2 problems with having very loose grids at Montjuich (and similar tracks).

1.  The drivers at the back will be out of sight of the flagman and will have to watch for the cars ahead to move.  Not a big issue IMO.
2.  The drivers at the back will get a longer run at T1 and will be travelling very fast when they hit the braking zone.  Might make the bunching at T1 even worse?

Loose grids are normally aimed at resolving T1 issues.  The crash here was at T2 not T1.  The cars had bunched up at T1.  So that surely means we need even looser grids.  We need to avoid bunching on the whole of  lap 1 not just T1.  Very loose grids will make qualifying even more important, not a bad thing.  I'm not saying we should have very loose grids at all tracks, just the problematic ones like Montjuich and Monaco.

The real problem is the track.  The first couple of corners are very slow and the armco prevents wreckage from clearing the track.  If we are going to carry on with this type of track we need very loose grids or very careful drivers.

The loose grid sounds good to me. In addition please keep this series a single mixed ability full grid. Its what makes it fun for everyone.

hmmmmm.
Well despite being knocked out in far too many races recently, and not always through major error on my part. ( I take the philosophical view that that is part of racing at this level) I am not convinced that loose grids would have negated the recent problems.

Whenever I have sat on a very loose grid I see an opportunity to make some passes before T1, and I am sure that other racers will admit to the same.

The extra space between the cars means that, if I am not on the front row, there is an inviting gap where I can nail the start and maybe get the car launched and straightened up before the cars in front are up to speed. The wider spacing means that I can risk a banzai launch with space to bring the wheelspin under control.
Whereas, if the grid is very tight, common sense dictates that I need to move off straight ahead and under control because other cars are going to be close all around and the margin for error is small.

The  distance to T1, plus the severity of that corner, is also a major factor, as the faster drivers and those braver on cold tyres and brakes will go deeper into those first corners than other cars, thus compressing the field. There is always the risk of a midfield car totally missing the braking point anyway and skittling through the whole pack, but that has always been the case.

Personally I don't think that there is any substitute for drivers trying to curb their ambition on the first lap and, perhaps more importantly, recognising that you have made a mistake that will allow a car behind to either get alongside or make a passing attempt. Simply nailing the gas towards the next apex when you have just saved a half spin or run wide with 2 wheels on the grass or bouncing of the armco is really not too clever unless you absolutely know where every other car is.
From the point of view of the driver behind a competitor who makes an error at T1, or lap 1 whilst the pack is still condensed, there are decisions to be made.Hhe will see the car ahead lose momentum and the possibility of a pass, but on top of that he has to decide whether he  should go for it, or back off and risk being rear ended by the howling pack behind??

In short I feel that whatever we do in terms of looser grids or rolling starts or no overtaking zones ,  it is just skirting the real issue of limited driver awareness, both as a result of the blind spots in GPL and lack of peripheral awareness of all drivers.

Just my opinion and not necessarily any great help... :-\

I understand what you mean about a tight grids making drivers more careful which is why I'm only suggesting very loose grids at the Montjuich/Monaco type of track.  Our standard loose grid helps to prevent incidents where drivers get a power slide off the line and slew across into each other but it still gives a driver a fighting chance of making up some places off the line.

The idea that a tight grid would make Montjuich safer isn't consistent with what happened here.  After T1, the cars were bunched up as if they had started on a tight grid.  The loose grid at the start helped stop a shunt at T1.  The pseudo tight grid after T1 caused the shunt at T2.

I agree with you about driver awareness but even the best drivers make mistakes.  Given that this circuit is lined with armco any crash is likely to block the track.  This incident happened because two cars where driving in very close company and they touched. The only way to avoid driving in very close company at the start is to have very loose grids IMO.

The next 69x race is at Monaco and we are going to have a repeat of this race unless we do something.  I suggest we do a few practice races with a very loose grid and see how it goes.

A very loose grid will make qualifying even more important.  But we are at Monaco after all, it isn't as if we're being unrealistic!

After one of them had driven into another car twice before T1, and then the wall, and then drove into another car, and only then did he manage to create the havoc that he'd invited four times previous by driving into yet another car. How would changing the grid change that?


There WAS a shunt at T1.


No difference at all, IMO. With the grid we've been using at Monaco, half of the field is around the corner and completely out of sight of the flagman already (unless it's the grid that put positions 12 and back waaaaaay back before Tabac [letting that result stand was ridiculous, but that's a different subject]).

Blaming the grid layout is the same as saying the penalty system doesn't work.

Anyone else considering jumping the start intentionally (and duly serving the on-track penalty) to avoid as much of the lap 1 fracas as possible? :devil:

Gplracer have tackled this issue in a rather stark, Teutonic fashion.  Grid spacing is similar, but penalties for naughtiness are extreme.  Minimum and universal punishment seems to be rear of grid next race, and applied for the slightest touch of a wheel, or minor threat to tranquility.  When first adopted some drivers departed, and grids have remained thin.  Accidents are fewer, drivers are fewer, penalties extreme.

It is interesting that similar stuff happens in real life racing also. The 2015 Indy car season was plagued with accidents in the first two races. I heard that Tony Kanaan spoke to other drivers about the issue, and he said that we must have a clean race for the fans. (Also, the teams' budgets have been depleted so front wings are in low supply.) It seemed to have worked because there was only one caution for four laps at Long Beach.  

Yes I noticed that and you have a point but it didn't result in a mass pile up until T2.

You are absolutely right, if everyone drove carefully the incident probably wouldn't have happened.  And yes you are right again when you say the penalty system isn't deterring people.  But if we make the penalties more severe so what?  We will end up driving people away because they will get sick of being hassled by the moderators.  We already have a few drivers who don't use the court system and complain about the moderating process.  And they have a valid point, we all just want to enjoy the game not get lectured every race. 

All I am proposing is an alternative way of trying to avoid the inevitable at Monaco.  In hindsight this series was not the best for a new moderator to take on.  I would dearly like to see a clean race and for Walter to have an easy moderating job to do.  So far this series has been a nightmare to moderate.

From what I can see, everyone did drive carefully (except for one).


I didn't say that. You did, by blaming the grid layout instead of the driver who, instead of being quite thankful for having avoided catastrophe in his four unnecessary contacts in the 1 1/2 corners of the race so far, carried on as he had been carrying on.


As opposed to driving people away because they only get to race 1 1/2 corners before being taken out by something they had nothing to do with, caused by someone who has repeatedly shown little awareness of other cars on the track. Maybe you should look at the last time we ran the 69X's at Montjuich: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=11502#event3527, or Monza from the same season: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=11529#event3528.


Please, keep the ideas coming. Maybe in this discussion someone will come up with something that might work.

All I'm saying is that the grid was not the problem at Montjuich, as T1 passed without major incident. Anything after T1 there has nothing to do with the grid, as the cars will be bunched up there no matter how far apart they start.


I wouldn't say that. Kyalami was fairly clean (what incidents there were had obvious culprits), and I pretty much moderated the Silverstone start fracas for him. ;)

I don't mind loose grids. I think they're safer. When I can't see the flag, I just look at the car I can see farthest ahead of me and go when it moves. Stick us 30m apart and I'd bet on average there will be less lap 1 accidents.

Dean, Thank you for your well reasoned and measured reply.  I have to concede (without prejudicing any moderation) you are right.  Perhaps adopting a very loose grid amounts to ignoring rather than tackling the real problem.

Maybe we also should avoid tracks with bottlenecks after the start in the future, especially with a division and mod with so much difference in performance carwise and driverwise...

Then again, it takes only one bad move to take out 5-10 cars after the start...or one stalling car at the front...therefore looser grids might not be the solution, but it surely makes the starts safer, no doubt...the cars are simple more spaced, so mathematically the chances are smaller they collide...

IMO people shouldn't take the start as the ultimate opportunity to make a pass, to make it 3 wide or changing lanes being not aware where other cars are...rather give than take after the start...personally I rather lose positions or give extra room on Lap 1 being safe, but I must admit I have it mostly easy being at the sharp end of the grids mostly, and I'm often rather lucky...

I am not having the solution, we just must work together and try to keep a cool head, avoiding incidents at all costs after the start...we must remember we are racing online and not having the field of view like in real life, and we can't race as close because of the internet/connections...

Mostly I am with Dean, I do not see it like a problem with the grid or the track. See it like a problem with only one guy who spoil it for most of the other by making something like a beginners fault.

 :laugh: Me defending the driver in question who would have thought it :laugh: Yeah it was a bad day at the office but then I have seen other drivers so far this season, including myself, getting it wrong early on. Also at least he has taken the trouble to apologise, which indicates he is aware of the effect it had on the race for some. Not everyone does so I applaud him.

Lots of excellent discussion on the pros and cons of loose grids. I'm for them.

However, even with a loose grid, I'm still not sure what is expected of a driver and everyone else on his side of the grid when the car directly ahead moves away far too slowly or worse still is stationary. Are they simply expected to sit tight and stay in line while the entire other side of the grid goes past for fear of causing a collision if they move off line? And who gets to move out first once the other side of the grid has gone by? The person at the front of the queue or the back?

You had to bring up Silverstone?  :D

Could be used to bolster my argument against pro mode, as many drivers would have been done even before the start line, in a situation where no one did anything really wrong...

But one thing Martin said in this thread has me curious. He mentioned that he was not able to see the start flag at Montjuich, where I (2 places behind him) could see it, got a much better start, and had to check up large to avoid punting him. Riding onboard his car for the replay, I could see the flag drop. Is it a resolution thing (1920x1080 here)?

 :laugh: Yeah I know, sorry everyone  :laugh: But does anyone know what the etiquette is for the side of the grid left behind a stricken car, just in case it happens again  :laugh:

Screen resolution made it harder to see the flag.  I was also further back than hoped, when practice races had been fine.

should have gone to specsavers  ::)

D'you know what Ronnie, I do not think anyone has ever asked that question before. Phil might remember something, but I cannot.  

The nearest thing in the guidelines/penalties would come under the bits about overtaking and weaving, but that hardly seems to be applicable here. In fact it could be argued that, as it is the obligation of the OVERTAKING car to avoid any contact, those in the clear lane off the grid should give way to those cars in front of them who wish to move out and around the stricken car because technically they are attempting to make a pass. Conversely the cars in front could be accused of weaving and blocking if they swing out in front of those cars that are about to pass. None of this seems quite right or fair , and applying these rules will cause more grief than it will solve I think.

Like 90% of all lap1/T1/startline incidents it comes down to a combination of driver awareness and the limited views afforded by GPL.

a) The driver behind the stricken car has only a fraction of a second to realise that it is not moving and having dropped the clutch and floored the gas when the flag drops, probably is destined to lunch on gearbox components.

b) cars further back, but in the same file, will all pick up speed and arrive at the scene of the carnage with maximum effect. ( I think Eistein predicted this in his Special Theory of Relativity about bodies in motion!)

c) cars in the same file that have time to realise what is happening and try to take avoiding action, by moving across into the other line of cars leaving the grid, risk starting a whole new accident blackspot.

d) Any car foolish enough to leave the file of cars on the clear side in an attempt to gain places ( on every grid there is one  ::) ) is likely to multiply the problem by 200%!

If members think that there is a need for guidelines/rules/penalties to cover such incidents, I guess we will have to think something up and put it before you. If anyone has thought of a fair and unambiguous etiquette to cover stalled cars on the grid, please post and we can all share ;)

For my part I think that frustrating though it is.. All drivers are responsible for not running into the car in front, so taken as it stands that includes the grid. and the moves necessary to get out and around a stricken car. In an ideal sim world ( and in Real Life motor racing ) unless you are on the front row, you do not start to move when the flag drops. You start to move only when the car in front starts to move!!

My gut feeling for this is that it comes under the same rule as "rear ending" another car.  If you run into the back of a car on the run down to T1, then YOU are responsible. If we introduce a separate rule for "the grid and the start" where does one rule stop and the other begin?? 5 mtrs over the start line? 20 mtrs after the start line??  Whatever rule we use must surely be consistent throughout the race?

Always expect the unexpected !  :o :o :o

Moderation Published.

I owe many thanks to the eleven drivers that gave me their insight into the incidents. Four of whom took the time to reply to more than one incident report. It really does help me to see things from a different perspective.

Also, Thank you to the four moderators that gave me feedback for this round. Special thanks to Phil and Robert for taking the time to reply each time that I revised the report. This report was far better because of their input. :)  

What a gigantic job, well done!!!

Maybe I should make the red zone way shorter for the next races ::)

Gracias  Walter & the Mods team for this very comprehensive and fair report   :)

 :laugh: Thank you Axel, I suppose that a shorter red zone would give me more time to spend with the family.  :)

And lest we not forget, thank you Axel for organizing and hosting races!!!  No small feat...    

(I read somewhere that "lest we forget" means for fear that we might forget)