SimRacing.org.uk

Season 29 - CHAMPIONSHIP 69X  : ROUND 2 - ROUEN (Papy track)


The 2nd round for season 29 of "69 Extra Trophy"  will be at Rouen in Normandy.

After the 1st race, Ronnie is leading the championship followed by Andreas an Tim.

The race will be run under INT rules and you can do one Shift+r  (only one) followed by a stop and go in the pits (Stop and Go must be taken within two laps of the incident unless on the last lap when a time penalty will be added).

We will use the patch : 60fpsV1 (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season27/60fps/).

Race List	=	IGOR
Server	=	UKGPL_8
IP Address	=	look at IGOR
Race date	=	25-10-2015
Qualification Time	=	~21:00  UK time -> 30min
Race Time	=	race starts at 21:30 UK time
Track	=	ROUEN (standard papy)
Variant	=	69X
60fps patch used	=	60fpsV1
Damage Model	=	INT
Race length	=	22 laps (to be confirmed)
Replay	=	you will get here (ftp://ukgpl3.dyndns.org/Replays/Archive/Season29/69Xtra/)

Please restrict chat to emergency messages only, including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.
Keep the messages like "Grats to the poleman", "GLA", "Well done racer X" to this topic and NOT to the CHAT !  

Password: see above (#post_event_password)
(2) Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=509&theme=6)

and remember :

Drivers will have a free car choice
BUT
Each car can be driven only once in this season!

Moderation : no more red zone, only reported incidents will be moderated.

Have FUN !

Is possibile to start after the f1 GP,Austin?

The clocks go back 1 hour in the UK & most of Europe so be aware of this. AFAIK the USGP starts 1900GMT so should be done with in plenty of time before the race.

If it end in 1,30h ,otherwise is better to start 15' later.

or you can buy a recorder ?

The live timing doesn't work as well!

[quoteor you can buy a recorder ?][/quote]
Not so crazy to spend money for this.Depend what is more interesting that evening .

Nothing to worry Fran, if the race starts at 20:00CET the maximal length is 2hrs, so you still will have 30 min for Quali  ::)

Even though I am a fan of Nico Rosberg (his father lived in my neighbouring house in the early 70s ;) ) I will start the server as usual.

Thank you Axel.

By the way, we already know the final race result  :  Hamilton - Rosberg - Vettel.
I am always surprised when I see people still interested by one the most boring sport (I am speaking of these 10 last years F1 races).

Is not written,the only GP not seen by me was Hungaro ring and the final was different.I agree with you about the boring in the last year,now are too important the cars and less the pilots.Sometime are boring also our race ;D
Anyway,since there is the rain of Patricia,could be possible that the race don't start or could be a race with unforeseen.

Training server is up, PW = 60fpsV1
so as long as it rains in Austin have some fun with 69X at Rouen...


For anybody having fps drops, try the original track from the CD! This will help 8)

Will the UK be on GMT as of tomorrow?  I understand that the time change is this weekend and am looking for confirmation.

Yes, we are back on GMT / UTC.
(Last Sunday of October - so just in time for fireworks on 5th November!)

Thanks for that, Dave.  Here in North America, we won't be turning our clox back for another two weeks, I believe.  What was typically a 4pm local time start for UKGPL races for me will now be 5pm local for the next two weeks.  Of course, our province of Saskatchewan doesn't even bother with the Daylight Savings thingie at all and never adjust their time.  Wish we here in Ontario would adopt that policy, too.  I believe that a handful of states south of the border do likewise but don't quote me.

Tried to get on the server,  but seems to have been very popular tonight!

Have a good one chaps.  Time for an early beer!

Cheers,
Dave.

Ah crap.  Rammed up the arse in lap 1, then disco.  ???

I'm always good at quickly adapting to the circumstances, but a P4 in quali and P2 in the race is above all expectations. I haven't seen the replay yet but was glad to survive the hairpin L1 and being able to overtake Tim. Tim kept very close the entire race but I managed to save a podium :) . Fun :) . Thanks for the race.

What a joke! The first start I'm hit from behind or the side at the hairpin. The second time Marco shifts into neutral to exit the hairpin. I almost stay off him but that assures I'm hit from behind again.

Fast lap of the race is at least 0.8 seconds off what I can do without a slipstream. The AI is more fun. :(

I hope there's a replay of the first start. It might be as sad as the second one. I wish I had saved mine.

That also applies to anyone behind who managed to avoid hitting the guy ahead too hard.  :angel:


And not having a "report incident" button cuts down on the workload even further, what? ;)

I wanted to have less work to do ...  ;)

Axel corrected it, it should be OK now.   


To all racers :
PLEASE REPORT INCIDENT BEFORE NEXT SATURDAY 23:59 (11:59 PM) 

Always tricky for me racing with the Big Boys, but I had done a fair bit of practice during the week, and finished with a reasonable setup. First time I qualified 9th. Second time I managed to get a lap in and qualified 7th. All seemed to be going ok, until the hairpin, when a Ferrari appeared on top of my car! I managed to wriggle free, but in the process my DFV had nearly reached 12000 revs, so I spent the rest of the race wondering if it was going to blow. I found myself in 4th place, with two BRMs right in front of me, but not for long as they pulled away. I then ran a solitary race for the next 20 laps, with the only scare being when Cookie's name appeared on my pitboard, but he was fortunately too far behind to catch me.

I really love the feel of the 69X cars, and was very pleased to end up 4th. :)

Sorry guys for my mistake at the hairpin, always at start the sounds becomes confused, you only hear other cars, so I found myself in neutral gear, I thought I had broken the engine, instead I was neutral....damn, I tried to move to avoid disasters, however  I  and  the other drivers we lost many seconds...........

Sitting in 6th grid position I saw only 2 cars in front constantly, all others were jumping like crazy or not visible!
After the first lap the server had only 4 cars left so I decided to shut down.

Even the extra wide grid (~17m!) did not avoid the pileup in the hairpin that left me lying on my back...

My apologies to...

The membership for in-race chat.

The membership and admins for using an expletive in said chat.  Edit: And just to clarify, that expletive was not directed at any particular individual.  Just a general comment reflecting my displeasure and disappointment concerning the developments in the New World Hairpin on Lap01.

Dean for the knerf in the New World Hairpin on Lap01 that set you off.  From what I can see, you lightly touched the car immediately ahead of you which set you back and I couldn't avoid.  Sorry.

Just about reached my limit with this series.  Already...

Very strange.

about the 1st lap, there was a big crash at the hairpin (...as usual) but after that and even after 2 laps when you decided to shut down, I still saw 14 cars still racing  ???
and I didn't see any jumping crazy cars ...

is it possible that, you only (or maybe with 1 or 2 other drivers) had connection troubles ?

NO! Impossible!
I am sitting to the server next door ;)

I controlled it at the server before I shut down, the server had only 4 drivers driving after the second lap  ::)

PS
I retired after the first lap on pos 3...
Shame on me I did not save the replay :wetfish:
All other drivers were marked in red color on the server, so they had lost connection!

This was a first time situation I never had seen before.
 

Have to admit I'm with Dave. I was still racing with a lot of cars ahead of me and some behind when the decision was taken to shut the server down.

Unfortunately I was unable to stay around for the rerun that occurred the same night.

Grats to the podium of Piero, Tom and Tim.

At the server it looked like a mass disco, 14 of 18 driver not racing in the second lap!
I did several attempts to verify it  ::)

I remember a server crash at GeLi, where we could handle that easy using Teamspeak, maybe we should also think about TS here...

Race 1 and next to last on the grid  ::) Then after lap1 mostly spent dribbling through the battlefield I get to be 9th , there seems to be chaos at every corner , thinking "whats the matter with those guys" and "why is everyone in such a hurry to self destruct " ??? This is 69X where the guy behind has the advantage , why chuck it away  :o

Race 2 start 11th (thanks to late joiners) Finish 11th , not bad on paper except almost 2 laps down and being lapped by some who had s/r and done pit stop .

Conclusion , its better to be a crap driver & fast than a crap driver & slow  ::) ( though it doesn't help being stuck behind a stranded car for ages at the hairpin waiting for him to re set )

Think I might have turned in on some one going through T1 late on in the race , not seen the replay yet so not sure if I am guilty of a transgression , will have a butchers later  ???

Grats to the podium boys and Ronnie for P4 , a great result there mate . 

  Full server!!!!!!!!!! Congrats all!!!!!!!!!!!!

It might have been a full server...maybe even a full grid........it could have been a cracking race .................but it did not stay that way for long  :-\

Having now seen the replay, the driving standard of almost the entire field is simply appalling to be completely honest... Everybody is so eager in these cars it seems. It looked like everybody was in such a hurry. The R1 connection troubles and R2 short quali didn't help to calm things down... But R1 had a huge pile-up too. Me, I listened to some London Grammar between R1 and R2, drove one 4 lap stint in quali, put the thing in P4 avoiding all spinning cars, did the same in the race, ended up P2 :D . Although Tim doing the same kept me honest.

It might be an idea to do a pace lap for the next event, or stretch the starting grid out to the extreme, otherwise there will be more penalties than in contemporary F1.

I doubt stretching the field more would help , IMO this would promote "faster starting " cars arriving "faster" into T1 potentially piling into the rear of "slower starting " or late brakers into the rear of early braking cars ,which is what we have already.

A pace lap could work with a No overtaking rule for a lap or two  :)

How about a no overtaking rule until the last lap?  Much safer racing that way. ::) We could call it Motor Touring instead.

I've not yet registered, and with no handicap this Season, a lap 1 roadblock adds to the lack of appeal.  I suggest a penalty of an hour of Online practice, for each offender, in the 24hrs before the next race.  With a friendly dancing partner required to help sort out, what can and can't be done safely.

Even in a pace lap the "hairpin chaos" would have happened, if one blocks the exit with 16 close following F1 cars...

Having looked at the rpy I must say:  People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.  ;D

My vote goes to a limited "no passing zone", wich is practiced by some other high class leagues too.

I am against a non overtaking zone (during 1 or 2 laps ...in Nurburgring for example ?  :) ).

Penalties should be harder : a driver, responsible of a big crash, could be banned for one or two races.

And remember : the first thing to do for other drivers is to report an incident.


  

To specify my idea of a "no passing zone"

It should be as short as possible, not even a full lap!

For the Nürburgring e.g. the exit of the Südkehre...

Many small children learn to ride a bicycle, by having little 'training' wheels attached to hold the bike up, until they learn to ride without.  Cookie has a similar idea for Ukgpl races.  What is obvious to this non-racer ATM, is the 50% rule is not working.  It is causing guys to loose points, and for some, this will mean loosing interest in the championship.

I'm in my 10th season with the ADC and until recently, the league had a 'no passing til after T1' rule.  It's been suspended of late as entries are down.  There were times when a 2nd server needed to be employed to handle the GPL overflow.  I had no problem with holding station til after T1 but frankly, I think that I'd just a soon go once the green flag drops.  We're big boys here.  We just need to look after one another a little better, no?

IMO the "no passing zone" should not be obligatory and only be used for tracks that have a well known L1 "hot spot"!

  ::) ::) ::)
Sometimes I doubt...

Surely the drivers need to take care after the start on cold tires, and rather be safe than sorry. But one cock up at a "hotspot" can trigger a multicar wreck...

But something that might have been overlooked is also the 69X mod itself. These cars have a very different performance, in topspeed, in acceleration and also braking distance. Especially the non-winged cars need to brake a lot earlier. This can exaggerate the problems this division has on Lap 1.

Put in the different driver skills, and overdriving on Lap 1, and you have an explosive mix...

Jonny - how spaced are your grids? More than 17m? They're the longest I've seen and usually the safest of all.

Grid was indeed full, with Ray and Tris that's 20 entries for race 1, plus my 69x isn't working and Martin hasn't registered. If there's also a mass disco potential (69x is the biggest carset?), what about 2 servers for tracks likely to be a problem (L1 bottleneck or too small)?

Looking at the calendar, the remaining races should be fine; they're all big tracks apart from East London. But might it be worth considering for next year? Good to have the problem of the series being 'too popular' for 1 grid of course :), although maybe a bit more space for each car will help with the crashes :angel:. There could still be fun races for 1 full grid madness ;D!

From my experience in these major crashfests it takes only 1 or 2 bad judgements to involve a multitude of cars.

In this case it seems that car 1 missed a gear ( innocent enough, except that there were 18 other cars right on his tail pipes all about to nail the gas!)
so a couple of cars collide with Car1 and cause a road block. cars 5,6 and 7 might have braked and avoided the wreck, but cars further back did not see the problem and one of them is still at racing speed.
This car knocks the few cars in front into the stranded cars, causing more wreckage.
The whole problem cascades back through the field, with maybe 1 car in 5 actually getting it wrong, but the result is that just about every car gets pushed or hit and ends up "involved".

Too many cars in a tight pack with no room for error by any single driver.....what do you expect will happen???


Unless we all keep a safe distance around lap 1, or until the grid spreads out far enough that everyone has space to drive at 100%, accidents like this are inevitable.

But that means ALL cars have to not race for the first laps, which is going to be kind of difficult to police. It would have to be like the Virtual Safety Car that they currently use in F!, but without the technology to monitor it.??!!
The only way I think we will avoid these huge wrecks is as more and more drivers decide to rely on self preservation, and even deliberatly qualify at the rear of the grid and hope to be fast enough to get through the field during the race.

There are lots of ways we can try to reduce the occurrence of mass crashes.  These generally fall into two categories:

• Deterring drivers by harsh penalties or restrictions (PRO rules, red zone, extra penalty for lap 1 incident)
• Removing a contributory factor (use loose grids, have rolling starts, enforce no overtaking zone)

I can't say that any of the techniques used to deter drivers have much effect.  Once the red mist descends all reason and rationale seems to evaporate.

Removing a contributory factor does seem to help but I'm not a fan of "rolling starts" or "no overtaking zones" as they are not authentic. So that just leaves loose grids IMO.

I like PRO rules because it is authentic and gives a slower driver a chance to score good points. There are any number of drivers in the 67 Works division who could crash, do a shiftR and a S&G several times and still beat me because they will easily make up any time lost.  But PRO rules are a pain if you are the innocent victim of a Lap 1 crash fest.

As Robert said above, I think the 69x mod itself has a lot to do with lap 1 mass crashes in this Division.  The cars are so fast there is less time to react.  So perhaps a different approach is needed for this division.  We just need to reduce the impact of a mass pile-up ruining an innocent drivers race.

Keep the loose grids but how about the re-introduction of a no-fault shift-R.  If a driver thinks they are innocent, then take a shift-R but don't do a S&G.  That way an innocent driver isn't punished twice.  If a driver who thinks they are innocent and doesn't do a S&G after a shift-R but is subsequently found to have been at fault, has a minute added to their race time.

That should be enough of a disincentive without introducing a measure that will ruin an innocent driver's race.

Pace laps and virtual safety car sound wonderful in theory.
Except as soon as you reach the first racing lap everyone will suddenly jump to it again - and the potential for an accident is still there!
This happens regularly enough in club racing for real and driving our computers makes us even more at risk in these situations.

This is simply a question of self control, after the amount of incidents I got caught in last season I simply took an attitude of 'leave them to it' for the first few laps. It didn't give me a clean sheet of wins in the latter half of the season, but once I started doing it but it did bump my average finish up due to less time in the shrubbery.

With the variation of setup options due to wings it seems silly for people to charge in on lap 1 with no idea what their opponents strong and weak areas are. Braking distances especially. Cold tires can massively affect the brakes in 69x.
That BRM setup I used was based on last seasons Kyalami setup where it seemed to have the best brakes in the field, these didn't really work for two laps though as the tires didn't warm up enough to work with the wing/suspension settings at the start. I braked early (Continued to through most of the race infact as Tom clearly had less wing and worse brakes) and apart from a very gentle bump in Nouveau Monde in the L1 pile up where I couldn't avoid him we didn't touch once all race.

Which was great as we had a right old battle right up until we caught a backmarker right at a point where Tom managed to scarper and drop me. His straight line speed was enough to prevent me from catching up again in time for a challenge to the finish.

Well done to Piero and Tom, also to Ronnie for a great result and to all the finishers  :)

I seem to recall that we always used to have a "no fault" reset, maybe it would be a good idea for 69x.

It does require all drivers to confess that they used a Shift-R and when they did it, so that the moderator can assess the situation?
I guess the big question is whether this means more or less work for the moderator??

I did participate in some ADC races but the pace lap threw me off. I do like competition and not just motoring around on your own. But desperate times call for desperate measures, we got it wrong as a field twice in two tries. That's pretty bad.


I like the 'no fault, no Stop n Go' rule :) .

Either way, to use a cliche, races are not won in the first corner, only lost. Racing against each other means trusting them to do what's right. It's like a debate or a heated but friendly conversation almost. It seems Marco didn't trust us enough to brake in a timely manner, lost focus and missed a shift at a vital moment. An error from him, but we as a field pressurized him too much maybe, philosophically speaking. I braked a little early but not as intense, so I would have some margin for error, and moved the brake bias forward to allow greater control into Nouveau Monde hairpin on lap 1. It allowed me to miss Axel, but only just, and I only tapped Marco slightly because I couldn't stop with the field right behind me. There was considerable luck involved so I have it easy when I speak, but maybe we just went in too hot as a field, not trusting each other enough.

Maybe Rouen isn't the best place to race 69x anyway, with said hairpin. I raced my second online league race ever here, in the 69's too, but back then the whole field had had practice races on both Friday and Saturday evening, as was common practice back then. Without the whole field learning to trust each other in practice races beforehand, perhaps some tracks like Rouen just aren't suited for 1969-Extra races.

Some good debate here.  I know I'm a cautious racer - I'm not sure I've ever actually overtaken anybody! - but I do think some people need to show more restraint / respect.  I am often being rammed from behind or forced off the track by people overtaking (I'm not talking about lapping, for which I always pull over).  I think a no-fault reset would be good, and maybe with a pro format would focus the minds of the over-enthusiastic! ;)

A few thoughts to add to some good ones above:

1) Start procedures do not affect what happens half way round the lap, penalties do.

2) 60fps = bigger replays = more space needed for incident replay uploads. 600KB may be insufficient for some.

3) This all started due to Marco not realizing he was in neutral (despite the engine revving and the car not moving) for EIGHT FULL SECONDS (and we all know how long a second lasts at racing speeds). Just let that sink in for a few moments, then tell me why we're looking elsewhere for a solution to this "problem".

moderation posted

Dean continues to blame Marco who definitely was wrong but from what seems almost insist that you allude to a calculated error.
Marco made a mistake as it happens to everyone, including you ..
If it were not for the problem of the re-start this "casino" mess would not have happened, we will enjoy you and I saw you were second !!
See you tonight!!

W Valentino Rossi

I do not understand what you mean logan, you think I have done voluntarily, losing second place to start last....................?????????

If I thought Marco had done that intentionally, I'd be calling for him to be banned from the league. In my report, I even stated that his not realizing he was in neutral didn't justify a penalty.

His unsafe rejoin (very slowly and straight into the middle of the track, forcing Bastian's evasive manoeuvre and their contact) was worth penalizing, in my view (but not the moderator's). I really don't get how they thought that was Bastian's fault.

The point I was trying to make was that lots of people were offering "solutions" that had nothing to do with the situation as it happened. Changing the grid, or having no-passing zones, won't stop someone from simply not accelerating when they are expected to.

I agree with dean, but lets go racing again....let the past behind.

The moderating team are of the same opinion.  It is not UKGPL policy to penalise drivers for making mistakes, drivers are only penalised for making bad decisions that compromise other drivers.  In this case the shunt was precipitated by a genuine mistake, a missed gear, not a decision to attempt a move that was infeasible.

This is a difficult one. The UKGPL rules (see here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette)) state:

It is the responsibility of any driver who is returning to the track to make sure they do not interfere with other drivers.

• Rejoining drivers should stay off the racing line and give way to faster cars until they are fully up to speed. Rejoining drivers should not attempt to keep anyone behind them until they are fully up to speed. Any driver who rejoins a race and, owing to negligence, causes another car to crash or take severe avoiding action, will be penalised

The racing line is on the outside exactly where Marco was obliged to rejoin the track.  He couldn't be expected to get back up to speed on the grass.  The exit of the corner and where Marco rejoined the track are practically the same and are both effectively a standing start so it is not as if Marco was rejoining the circuit where the other cars were already flat out.

Did Marco's rejoin directly affect Bastian?  Not in the opinion of the moderating team,  Bastian did not have to swerve or take avoiding action.  Admittedly Marco could have stayed left, perhaps worthy of praise if he had, but not worthy of a penalty if he didn't.  However Bastian had more momentum and took the opportunity to try to pass Marco.  Having made the pass Bastian cut back in too early, he should have waited until he saw Marco's car in his mirrors before he moved over.

So the penalty for Bastian was for cutting back too early, it was nothing to do with Marco's rejoin.  Bastian can appeal if he feels the moderation was harsh.

A perfectly correct and valid point too!  The moderators looked carefully at the distances the drivers were behind each other at the Shell marker board in the braking zone.  Although there was some correlation between between separation distances on the approach and whether or not the driver hit the car in front; the main factor was the acceleration/turning/braking phases.  The cars in the acceleration zone were more likely to hit the car in front (Greg, Axel) because they were anticipating the car in front would move.  The cars in the turning zone had a chance to react and avoid contact because they were not about to hit the throttle.  The cars in the braking zone had an opportunity to brake earlier and avoid contact.  Driver skill was also a significant factor.

However once all the cars had closed up, warp would inevitably have an effect and cars started to be exploded all over the place.  It is not possible for cars to be moving slowly within a few centimetres of each other without the risk of warp registering an overlap.  So it is important to maintain a car's length separation at all times, even when driving slowly.  Hence the advice in the mod report.  For a good example of how to negotiate the carnage look how Andreas did it.

The simple fact is these cars accelerate faster and brake faster than any others in GPL so they have to be driven accordingly.  Circuits with slow corners (Rouen, Montjuic, Snetterton, Monaco etc) exacerbate this problem.  Hopefully Silverstone won't be a problem.

The moderating team welcome these debates as we are only interested in improving the quality of the racing for the benefit of everyone.  So please continue to feel free to contribute.  However it would be regrettable if this resulted in drivers having arguments and disagreements that detracted from the enjoyment of the racing.  Before reaching such a stage it would be better to trust in the moderating team to make the right decisions.

And Marco demonstrates this perfectly by driving straight into the middle of the track. Slowly. In second gear (because we all know that cars accelerate from slow speed better in higher gears).  ::)

Bastian then has the choice of ramming Marco, checking up LARGE (and risk being rammed himself by someone who doesn't realize that there's a roadblock ahead), or trying to find a way around. He does this last just at the same time that Marco finally decides to accelerate, so he's there when Bastian tries to make the corner. Yes, Bastian could have done a cleaner job of it, but we don't punish drivers for mistakes, just "bad decisions" (like hitting the green button to join this race).


And how do Marco's actions not fit that to a T?


No, he did not have to take avoiding action. He could have kept his speed and line and rammed Marco right up the tailpipes.

If this is the result, I'd not be surprised if he's quite tempted to, next time. If he's going to be penalized anyway, make it be for something that's worth it.

Dean, I think you could be a great moderator !

I am not joking at all, you could quickly start with this new role, I am ready to give you my place.
And I would be very grateful if you agreed. 

And a clarification, re the incident with Bernie: as he acknowledged his error, and it did not affect the race outcome in any way, I had asked that no penalty be applied. Disregarding my preference may make others less willing to use the incident report system.


I think the racers should decide that. If you want to put it to a vote or something, I'm willing. Thank you for your efforts so far.

I need a translation of some sentences to understand them completly....

Logan for GPL Sherrif ? definately (  he can spell too )  :yes: