Title: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: EvilClive on March 13, 2018, 01:09:48 PM +0000 THIS RACE WILL NOW BE RUN ON SUNDAY 18TH.
Season 32 - 1965 - Fun Races - Silverstone - March 18 One of the original Papyrus tracks that everyone knows but with an added twist to even things up a little. Password is FUN Race List= IGOR Server = UKGPL_8 IP Address= look at iGOR Race date= 18-03-2018 DATE AMENDED GPL mod= 1965 F1 60fps patch used= 60fpsV2newmod Track= Silverstone Qualification= 20:45 UK time -> 45min Race= race starts at ~21:30 UK time Race length= ~50 min -> 30 laps Damage Model= Int - shift+r is allowed, but please be read the notes below carefully Replay= here (ftp://ftp.ukgpl9.co.uk:32122/Season32/) PLEASE READ THESE NOTES CAREFULLY AND BE SURE THAT YOU UNDERSTAND HOW ALL SnG's MUST BE PERFORMED. All drivers who currently run in Pro are required to take 3 SnG's. These cannot be taken on the first or last laps. (lap 1 or lap 30) One SnG to be taken between laps 2-10 , one between laps 10-20, and the other between laps 20-29. All drivers currently running in Am's do not have to take any compulsory SnG's. Shift/R's arewill require an additional SnG which must be taken within 2 laps as per our usual rules. All of the above will result in increased traffic in the pitlane, so there are a few rules to cover that:- 1) There is no pitlane speed limit...BUT, 2) NO overtaking in the pitlane. This means from the moment that you leave the main circuit until you are fully back on the main circuit, you cannot pass any car in front of you. 3) The procedure for taking ALL SnG's whether as a handicap or after using a Shift/R are the same, because all cars will be stopping for the same period of time ( approx 1 second). 4) The first car that enters the pitlane will drive to the far end of the pit stalls and perform his SnG. 5) If you enter the pitlane and there is a car already stopped, you perform your stop behind him, remember that you cannot overtake so you will have to be sure that the car in front is moving off BEFORE you nail the gas. Some drivers might be quicker or slower than others!! 6) If a line of cars enters the pitlane together they will follow the lead car and perform their SnG's and leave the pits again in the same order. 7) These rules apply for ALL stops. GLA Code: Silver Sun Mar 18 22:22:42 2018 PRACTICE TIMES Pos No Driver Team Nat Time Diff Laps 1 7 Robert Fleurke Honda HOL 1m31.650s 14 2 12 Axel Cookie BRM GER 1m31.986s 00.336s 21 3 18 Gareth Hall65 Lotus GBR 1m32.091s 00.441s 6 4 11 Andreas Gebhardt Lotus GER 1m32.357s 00.707s 15 5 22 Dean Logan_65 Honda CAN 1m32.495s 00.845s 12 6 9 Bastian Grupp BrabBT11 GER 1m32.850s 01.200s 11 7 1 65 Clive Honda USA 1m33.228s 01.578s 15 8 10 Mike James65 BrabBT11 GBR 1m34.225s 02.575s 11 9 17 Jack O 'Ferrall65 BRM GBR 1m34.962s 03.312s 21 10 14 Doni65 Cooper CAN 1m34.991s 03.341s 4 11 21 Billy Nobrakes BrabBT11 GBR 1m34.995s 03.345s 17 12 19 60fps UKGPL8 BRM GBR No time No time 0 All times are official Generated with GPL Replay Analyser Track: Silver Sun Mar 18 22:22:42 2018 RACE RESULTS (After 30 laps) Pos No Driver Team Nat Laps Race Time Diff 1 7 Robert Fleurke Honda HOL 30 47m14.870s 2 12 Axel Cookie BRM GER 30 47m20.280s 05.410s 3 22 Dean Logan_65 Honda CAN 30 47m32.294s 17.424s 4 11 Andreas Gebhardt Lotus GER 30 47m32.925s 18.055s 5 10 Mike James65 BrabBT11 GBR 30 47m55.285s 40.415s 6 1 65 Clive Honda USA 30 48m09.268s 54.398s 7 17 Jack O 'Ferrall65 BRM GBR 30 48m20.033s 1m05.163s 8 14 Doni65 Cooper CAN 30 48m29.744s 1m14.874s 9 21 Billy Nobrakes BrabBT11 GBR 30 48m38.960s 1m24.090s 10 9 Bastian Grupp BrabBT11 GER 3 5m09.800s 27 lap(s) 11 18 Gareth Hall65 Lotus GBR 2 3m12.605s 28 lap(s) 12 19 60fps UKGPL8 BRM GBR 0 DidNotStart 30 lap(s) Race results are unofficial (Replay might have been saved before end of race) RACE FASTEST LAPS Pos Driver Time Lap 1 Robert Fleurke 1m31.443s 30 2 Axel Cookie 1m32.509s 28 3 Dean Logan_65 1m32.552s 21 4 Andreas Gebhardt 1m32.637s 21 5 65 Clive 1m33.710s 25 6 Gareth Hall65 1m34.550s 2 7 Mike James65 1m34.550s 30 8 Doni65 1m34.563s 29 9 Billy Nobrakes 1m34.713s 30 10 Jack O 'Ferrall65 1m35.363s 30 11 Bastian Grupp 1m36.897s 3 12 60fps UKGPL8 No time LEADERS Driver Laps Robert Fleurke 1-13 Axel Cookie 14-16 Robert Fleurke 17-22 Axel Cookie 23 Robert Fleurke 24-30 Number of lead changes: 4 Number of leaders: 2 LAPS LED Driver Laps led Robert Fleurke 26 Axel Cookie 4 HIGHEST CLIMBER Driver Start Finish Change Mike James65 8 5 3 Doni65 10 8 2 Jack O 'Ferrall65 9 7 2 Billy Nobrakes 11 9 2 Dean Logan_65 5 3 2 65 Clive 7 6 1 Andreas Gebhardt 4 4 0 60fps UKGPL8 12 12 0 Axel Cookie 2 2 0 Robert Fleurke 1 1 0 Bastian Grupp 6 10 -4 Gareth Hall65 3 11 -8 ON TRACK LAPS Driver Laps/Total Percent Doni65 (29/30) 96.67 Axel Cookie (28/30) 93.33 Jack O 'Ferrall65 (25/30) 83.33 Robert Fleurke (24/30) 80.00 Dean Logan_65 (24/30) 80.00 Andreas Gebhardt (23/30) 76.67 65 Clive (22/30) 73.33 Mike James65 (22/30) 73.33 Billy Nobrakes (18/30) 60.00 Bastian Grupp (1/3) 33.33 Gareth Hall65 (1/2) 50.00 RACE LAPTIME CONSISTENCY (first lap excluded) Driver Avg Deviation Std Deviation Avg Laptime Laps Gareth Hall65 0.000 0.000 1m34.550s 2 Mike James65 0.518 0.675 1m35.563s 30 Jack O 'Ferrall65 0.827 1.661 1m36.378s 30 Axel Cookie 1.889 3.148 1m34.566s 30 65 Clive 1.924 3.120 1m36.099s 30 Doni65 2.004 3.257 1m36.690s 30 Billy Nobrakes 2.263 4.323 1m37.088s 30 Andreas Gebhardt 2.301 3.394 1m34.916s 30 Dean Logan_65 2.345 3.122 1m34.883s 30 Robert Fleurke 2.651 3.931 1m34.422s 30 Bastian Grupp 5.196 5.196 1m42.093s 3 Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone Post by: Billy Nobrakes on March 13, 2018, 01:56:08 PM +0000 Interesting handicap. Silverstone has one of the longest pit lanes, with Armco. I would not be surprised if an Amateur wins. Will do my best to attend.
Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone Post by: miner2049er on March 13, 2018, 02:28:39 PM +0000 Sadly can't make it.
Well, not sadly, I'm imminently going to be a Grandad. Obviously I'm far too young at a mere 47. ;D Love the idea though Clive, possibly your best one ever, and would like to have taken part. Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone Post by: bagrupp on March 13, 2018, 03:24:29 PM +0000 Is this running at the same time with
https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=14879#event5772 :( ? Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone Post by: EvilClive on March 13, 2018, 03:49:45 PM +0000 It appears that there has been a screw up on the admin side. :o
Well OK, I screwed up yet again!! ::) ::) Axel had already posted an announcement for tonight and that was for a 55 race at Cerne's Wood. So the 65 race can be postponed until Sunday evening and I have amended the announcement. Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone Post by: EvilClive on March 13, 2018, 04:10:58 PM +0000 Sadly can't make it. Well, not sadly, I'm imminently going to be a Grandad. Obviously I'm far too young at a mere 47. ;D Love the idea though Clive, possibly your best one ever, and would like to have taken part. Welcome to the Grandad ( and standby babysitter ;) ) Club. Owing to a rare admin oversight ( shock!! horror!!) this 65 experiment has been postponed until Sunday 18th, so unless the babysitting clause kicks in early you might be able to take part ;). Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone Post by: Billy Nobrakes on March 13, 2018, 06:06:34 PM +0000 I have a case of impending Grandadness too. The ETA is Sunday 18th, so might or might not make the race.
Mike - seems our lap times were too slow & life caught up. Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone Post by: EvilClive on March 13, 2018, 06:56:39 PM +0000 Congrats Bill!! This Grandad thing is fast becoming an epidemic!!!
Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone Post by: miner2049er on March 14, 2018, 10:31:56 AM +0000 Welcome to the Grandad ( and standby babysitter ;) ) Club. Thanks Clive. I assumed you are a seasoned member of the club by now. ;) I'm busy early Sunday evening but should be done in time. not sure how much practise will take place by then though. I have a case of impending Grandadness too. The ETA is Sunday 18th, so might or might not make the race. Mike - seems our lap times were too slow & life caught up. Congrats Billy. That always seems to be my problem. :) Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Cookie on March 18, 2018, 08:44:01 PM +0000 Password is FUN
Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: EvilClive on March 18, 2018, 10:27:30 PM +0000 I would be interested to know what members thought of this race and if it "levelled" the grid with the extra stops?
Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Cookie on March 18, 2018, 10:41:51 PM +0000 I am not convinced, as you can see Rob did 4x s+g!
(http://www.bilder-upload.eu/thumb/125845-1521412859.jpg) (http://www.bilder-upload.eu/show.php?file=125845-1521412859.jpg) Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Robert Fleurke on March 18, 2018, 10:52:00 PM +0000 However it's fun in a way to choose to get in the mix taking another strategy. But everytime I got behind others, they pitted! ;) Decided to take another SnG to give Axel a chance to hold on.
In such a system, I need 5 SnGs ;D PS: Gareth would have had a good chance Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: miner2049er on March 18, 2018, 11:11:01 PM +0000 I don't think it was a fantastic leveller but, as always, with a bigger field it would have been much more interesting.
Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Gareth on March 19, 2018, 12:03:56 AM +0000 i lost the connection and I went a lap down, it happened before and I carried on, but with the stops etc there was no point. shame.
Grats to finishers Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: DLogan on March 19, 2018, 01:50:09 AM +0000 I had a hoot trying to get past Andreas several times (successful) and then shake him (not successful) to catch Cookie (kept setting race PBs but couldn't eat into his lead at all). Should have opened a window beforehand, was hard work and I was overheating near the end.
Like Rob, I felt the assigned stops weren't enough and so I tossed a few lack-of-attention spins into my race plan, to keep things interesting. :angel: <crowd mumbles "liar!"> Oh, and Bastian should be credited with my third place. From what I can see, he jumped the start due to a blip of lag, did a stop to try to atone but failed so got DQ'ed (and not credited past the 4th lap). He worked his way from last place to 5th on the road despite that S&G. At the finish, he trailed Andreas and I by much less than the 10ish seconds a stop costs here, so crediting those back puts him on the podium today. Well deserved, very good drive. :thumbup1: Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Billy Nobrakes on March 19, 2018, 07:26:50 AM +0000 Interesting format, although it seemed the pros were driving faster than ever. I lost track of where Clive was & tripped up. My error & the reset + stop & go left me stranded. Robert seemed to be taking SnG laps as fast as O was driving. Welcome return to the 65 cars.
Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: bagrupp on March 19, 2018, 08:21:38 AM +0000 Thanks Dean.
After that start lag i pushed instictivly the throttle. I've never jumped a start before online, but decided to make a s'n'g after lap 1. I realised after the pits that gpl wants me to have a 10 seconds at my board, but i decided to go on for the fun and ask the Moderator if the s'n'g is enough "penalty" and additionaly just asking how we handle jumps starts in the league races. i guess not really happens often ? I also had two spins... According to my speed goin' up i'm not sure still to be amateur/privateer in S33 ? But i'm still havin' much mistakes.... FUN RACE ! Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: EvilClive on March 19, 2018, 09:19:43 AM +0000 Thanks for the feedback guys. This was a way to test another handicap idea for races where we have Pro's and Am's in the same race.
I don't think that any form of this system would be used in a championship race, but with some adjustments it might be a way of levelling the grid for fun races. I was looking for another way because the use of chassis handicaps did not seem to be slowing down the fast guys enough, and I felt we needed a method that would give them a time penalty that was approximately equal to the performance difference. Proper timed pitstops are possible, but they are very difficult to monitor and are generally disliked because of the quirks of GPL that tends to disco stationary cars. I think it shows just how quick Robert is if he can take 4 SnG's and still finish at the front!!!. The intention was never to handicap the Pro drivers so that they could not possibly win, but to prevent the field splitting into 2 groups. I think a full grid might have created a more interesting race, because I had expected that there would be cars entering and leaving the pits throughout the race. In fact I only saw one car in the pit lane throughout the whole race!! and that was when I passed Doni as he took one of his stops!!!! With his alien ability Robert was always favourite to win, but if there had been 5 or 6 stops for Pro drivers it would have been a little too artificial. With my mediocre pace and the stops I found myself chasing Billy for the first laps and failing to find a way past, until I had to use the "demon braking" button in the Honda to force a way around him. I hoped that I could chase down the leaders but then Jack decided to use his extra wide BRM and make life tricky for my final 2 stops and the rest of the race. I saw Bastian jump the start when all the grid vanished and re-appeared. In fact I almost did the same thing, I guess that it shows how focused we are on getting a good start and that any stimulus triggers a response? This was just a fun race and carries no points so Bastian can consider himself 3rd if Dean and Andreas believe he should have been in front. I have been racking my memory cells to think of a circuit with a chicane for the pit entry/exit. That would remove the need for an actual STOP in the pitlane and we could use "drive thru's" instead? Maybe even giving the aliens an extra stop ( or two?)???? Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Billy Nobrakes on March 19, 2018, 02:17:17 PM +0000 Castle Coombe pit lane might fit the ticket. Perhaps Kiemola? Another variation is to use the refuelling stop patch which requires the car to be stationary for a bit. This only becomes enforcible if the race is longer than a full tank - or you set a maximum starting fuel load & everyone is honest, which I think most members are.
Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: maddog on March 19, 2018, 03:37:36 PM +0000 Not many slow entrances, as pitlane speed limits weren't considered necessary back then.
Handicap races were common while my Grandfather was racing. Cars were started separately, but would theoretically all be finished together in a heap, at the finish line! My Gran. survived, and won several times at Brooklands. This staggering idea for Ukgpl, was dismissed as too dangerous in the past, but would make an interesting challenge, now that we are all Online experts. No fear here, but no Landline either ATM, so no help in handicap testing. However, I could supply a precautionary Wifi Ambulance. :angel: Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Robert Fleurke on March 19, 2018, 04:29:52 PM +0000 Tandil pitlane would be fun, actually there's no pitlane, just grass ;D
At Silverstone my 4 Sng's did cost 45s. On average 11.25s. I should have taken T77/BT7, but I'm a bit tired taking those cars since I drove them mostly last few seasons. It's fun to do well in those cars, but you hardly can pass clean with them lacking top end. I prefer car handicaps above SnG handicap, but arguably a combination of both might be due to an experiment. Prior to the race I didn't like it, artifical handicapping. However during the race I enjoyed it trying to get in the mix, but I should have done my first stop earlier, before the others. 65s is still my favo mod after original 67s! I'm old school :) (yes I'm into all mods, but for TC) Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: EvilClive on March 19, 2018, 04:46:17 PM +0000 Castle Coombe was a track that I had not considered Bill, I will need to go and take a fresh look there and at Kiemola.
Yes Martin, pitlanes were a lot more of a lottery back then....no speed limit on entry, so cars would hurtle into the pits dodging other pitcrews, and then roar out again burning rubber and the occasional press photographer who was in the way....no fireproof overalls for the mechanics ( in fact no overalls at all, just the random flat cap!!) refuelling often took place with a fag hanging out of one of the mechanics mouths........... wheels removed with a large mallet or hammer with knock on centre nuts. ahhh!! the good old days ;) Many years ago when we had 4 divisions...(I can't believe I have been around for that long!!!) we regularly ran races for the top divisions at UKGPL with pitstops, and these were anything up to a minute plus, depending on the chassis and track. This was in the days of dial-up modems when "broadband" was unheard of. Geeez I feel old!! The stop times were based upon the world record times for each chassis at the track we were racing, not upon the drivers ability. There is, still in existence, a spreadsheet that calculates the stop times for the 67 cars. In theory if every car was running at WR pace ( without mistakes ::) ) all cars would reach the chequered flag together, just like Martin's grandparents, although maybe not in a heap?? In practice everyone was running more slowly than WR pace but the maths worked out just the same. It took a while to learn how to do the longer stops. It was necessary to rev the engine and move a few metres down the pitlane every 20secs to avoid being disco'd by the software, but we all got used to it and it worked quite well. I think the cunning maths involved in the calculations always allowed for one car to complete the race without a stop, so there was always an "escape clause" for those who did not want to risk a stop. Even an elite driver who selected a Lotus had to really earn his champagne after a 2 minute stop, often not regaining the lead position until the very last laps. The one thing that it did was to give grids using all of the cars in most races as drivers calculated whether they could use the extra pace of some cars to negate the handicap of a pitstop. oops! just saw Robert's post and will add Tandil to the "look at" list. I think it was fine that you avoided the BT7 and T77 for this race, I am sure that you have seen enough of those cars. ;) This was most definitely intended to be a FUN race with something different for everyone to try. I wish we could find a way around the various software glitches that prevent simple pitstops in GPL. Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Jack O'Ferrall on March 19, 2018, 05:52:02 PM +0000 I wish I had enough talent to have an extra-wide BRM, the second time Clive hovered off my right quarter I attempted to allow him the space to pass! This ended sadly with me clipping the inside and a spin that seemed to take more than a dozen seconds to recover.
While this was only a trial of a new handicap method, of the slower cars there was only Doni's T77. Pit stops force the fastest drivers into the fastest cars, is this not obviously an error? Also, Robert might have problems passing with the BT7 however isn't pit stops just going to transfer the issue further down the field- as Clive experienced when his stops brought him behind me? The old system of handicap by cars was not intended to mix faster and slower drivers, and you would have to combine it with personal handicaps if you wanted closer racing between drivers of unequal ability? Asking faster drivers to use the BT7 or Cooper seems far more elegant than racing by spreadsheet? Robert's extra stop inspired the notion that perhaps the best 'fun' handicap would just be to have the leader forced to pit! So, if you were ahead at the finish line you needed to pit on the next lap- unless you only passed the finish in the pits, or it was the last lap. Then if Robert led an entire thirty-lap race he would need fourteen stops. This might seem extreme, however he would only need to be 4.6s faster if each pit stop only takes 10s. I'm not sure that a system only of use at pits with chicanes is viable. Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Billy Nobrakes on March 19, 2018, 06:47:18 PM +0000 I often feel a little guilty setting a handicap to slow down the top drivers. It feels more honorable to compete on even terms but the reality is we have a fairly small pool of drivers with very mixed abilities. I can't see there is a great deal of fun to be had for a top pro if you are easily quicker than the field. Hence we continue to experiment with different ways to level up the competition. One other variation I came across during a few forays with Groundhog was the virtual safety car. About half distance the leader would slow down for a bit to allow the stragglers to catch up. (No overtaking permitted). GPL is at its best when you are in close competition & the VSC achieved this.
Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Gareth on March 20, 2018, 07:10:30 AM +0000 As we are the subject of levelling the field. Is it possible to do anything with setups. i.e you have to use the default?
Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Robert Fleurke on March 20, 2018, 04:16:15 PM +0000 Robert's extra stop inspired the notion that perhaps the best 'fun' handicap would just be to have the leader forced to pit! So, if you were ahead at the finish line you needed to pit on the next lap- unless you only passed the finish in the pits, or it was the last lap. Then if Robert led an entire thirty-lap race he would need fourteen stops. This might seem extreme, however he would only need to be 4.6s faster if each pit stop only takes 10s. I'm not sure that a system only of use at pits with chicanes is viable. I already have a cheeky strategy, I will let P2 take the lead everytime just before s/f! :angel: That way I still will win! :whistling: Wacky Races! :D Personally I'm not a fan of fixed setups, and you can't enforce it with GPL. Setups are personal and depending on hardware (control device), linearity and driving style. Also the secret being fast with GPL does not lie in setups, but more in practising, analyzing, experience and skill. I also won races with fixed setups with NR2003 and/or iRacing. It's a matter of being able to adapt your driving (style) to the setup, you could still change brakebias and steering ratio. In general I'm not a big fan of artificial handicapping, all I can do myself is restricting myself to the slowest cars. I'm trying to do my best to be in the mix in all leagues I compete, and still being able to fight for podium/win. That said, nothing wrong with a bit of experimenting, but in the end the fastest drivers will be at the sharp end of the grid anyhow. My biggest wish would be other drivers improve at a faster rate than me, because I'm not done yet I'm afraid...I'm faster in my late 40s than in my early 30s. ;) Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: DLogan on March 20, 2018, 05:36:30 PM +0000 ...Is it possible to do anything with setups... One method I've seen used successfully (YAOL? VOR maybe? I forget) was fuel handicaps, where wins and championships would add gallons to your starting fuel (accumulative). Carried over seasons, it morphed into a pseudo driver rating, where the fastest guys (eg. Urban Anselmyr) would be starting with 20 more gallons than necessary for the race distance (tested, announced, and agreed before the event), I was at +12 or so, and any rookies or unrated drivers would have just the "basic load". The extra 100lb.+ makes a big difference to the 65's. Plus sides: car choice is still free, no pitstop(s) confusion, straight race to the finish line. Down sides: lack of verifiability, some extra admin load (doing the figures, listening to complaints ;)). Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: Gareth on March 20, 2018, 08:18:04 PM +0000 "Also the secret being fast with GPL does not lie in setups" very true, but it helps :)
"...I'm faster in my late 40s than in my early 30s" Yay! ;D there is hope yet The setup idea was just a thought not really do-able, but, Dean's fuel thing may work but I suppose it would depend on honesty, I understand that is a given anyway. I guess we just need to practice more. Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: EvilClive on March 20, 2018, 10:09:01 PM +0000 I had a disco during practice and a game freeze during the race exiting the final turn?
Was it just me, or did others have any probs. I thought that this track was stable and reliable, so I hope the problems were at my client end. Title: Re: Fun Race for 65's at Silverstone March 18 Post by: miner2049er on March 20, 2018, 10:14:50 PM +0000 I had disappearing cars throughout.
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