SimRacing.org.uk

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Following on from a fun race about a year and a half back featuring a mixed grid of DTM cars I'm having another go at balancing the grid.
We'll be using the same track layout and the current versions of the same cars - but I've had my calculator out and have been working on better ways of balancing the grid.

As a result I'm using a combination of ballast and restrictor in order to get the power to weight into a roughly similar band.
The heavy cars will still have more power - so will likely end up with better top-end speed - but won't simply walk away on the straights anymore.

Anyone that can practice with all 4 cars will be appreciated, I'll be doing all 4 but know I have strong favourites that I'm better in so that will likely skew the times.

The hope is that I can come up with a suitable handicapping baseline to allow a series to be run - that will then have some further success ballast added depending on championship position (In order to smooth out the changes smoothly across the season).


Password: see above

Practice: 19:30 (45 mins)
Qual: 20:15 (15 mins)
Race: 20:30  (30 mins + 1 lap)


Cars allowed:
Alfa 155 (+11Kg ballast, 10% (-42Hp) restrictor)
BMW M3 DTM (no handicap)
Ford Sierra R500 V3.03 (+20Kg Ballast, 50% restrictor (turbos don't respond the same as N/A before you ask!)
https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/ford-sierra-cosworth-rs500-pack.24027/ (https://www.racedepartment.com/downloads/ford-sierra-cosworth-rs500-pack.24027/)
Mercedes 190E DTM (+6Kg ballast, 1% (-6.3Hp) restrictor.

The above handicapping brings everything to roughly 2.7Kg/Hp apart from the Ford - as it's Turbocharged, it has epic torque and is faster than it should be - providing the mod team got their figures right.

Track: Nurburgring GP



Live Timing: here (http://stracker.simracing.org.uk:50041/lapstat)

Time of Day Setting: 15:00
Weather: Mid-clear
Start: Standing
Tyre wear: Normal
Fuel consumption: Normal
Pit-stops: Not required

Server track settings:
SESSION_START=100
RANDOMNESS=0
LAP_GAIN=0
SESSION_TRANSFER=N/a

Damage: 60%

Password: see above

PLP App - Not used in this series. Cutting will be monitored on replay and penalties issued for excessive cutting.

*edited 01/11/20 - Sierra has received heavy handicapping as was lapping over a second faster than the BMW. This is possibly caused by altitude as the Ford is turbocharged. We'll also run a test race at sea level to see how things change then - I'm really hoping it won't, as I'll have to run massive numbers of laps on EVERY circuit to balance it otherwise....

I don't know much about those DTM beasts but dislike the fact they were using ABS yet.
Then were those 6 gears gearboxes sequential - I mean "classic" sequential with a lever - or H pattern ?


Reading your additional note it looks like you're planning to build a series of these Tim ?  :-X
I must say I won't participate in I'm afraid if so.. for multiple reasons. Mainly because it's too modern stuff for me.  :-\

Hi mates!
hope you're well. If I can make it I think I'll be in with the alfa! Would be good to taste the tarmac again :)

These cars are good combination of historic/modern, stuff from early 90´s or so. I think all should be medium happy. :)

H, some cars have 5 gears, other 6.
The 155 has not the ABS (I think), and considering that it has a manual lever, and few electronics should be that of '93 -'94. Those of the following years were a concentrate of remarkable technology.

They are quite old style to drive. They have all good handling, the Alfa is a bit strange because she is 4wd (she is like a Delta for track). I suggest you to try all, specially the Sierra and Mercedes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohPEXfm7q1M&t=4s
with engl sub.

All are H-shifter manuals. No ABS on the Alfa, and it's so bad on the Merc that it's about half a second to a second faster here with it turned off. Something that should be kept in mind by anyone struggling for laptimes in it.

This is an repeat of a very good fun race from a while back - I don't think that anyone didn't enjoy it. All I've done is spend a bit longer balancing the cars (maybe 4 hours now) until they all lap to within a couple of tenths with me driving and having set them up.
Other people drive differently though so I'll appreciate others spending some time on all 4 so I can further equal them if needed.

I will probably go for the Sierra, should be a bit easier to handle than the BTCC spec version we raced a few months ago as they had more power than the DTM version.

You also have ABS and an LSD in the DTM version - it was a spool (welded diff to all intents and purposes) unit in the BTCC car.
The Sierra handles very nicely to be honest, although while it has very good low/mid range power and torque it's lacking a bit of top end speed, this is due to the restrictor level I'm having to run it with to slow it down (The alternative would likely be 100Kgs+ of ballast which would generate excessive tire wear).
Given it exits corners better than everything apart from the Alfa (which is obviously very good out of low-speed corners) that evens things quite nicely (I hope).

I would argue that BMW and Sierra are easiest to drive fast, as Alfa and Merc either don't have ABS - or run better without it. As I intend to take the Merc as usual, I've ballasted it based on running without ABS.
Depending on how this race goes we might want to consider just not having ABS for the series to keep things interesting? (I refuse to say fair, as the Alfa's destroyed the competition in real life without it!)

Blaah, already did testing with ballast/restriction what was in 1st race post. This is ridiculus tbh, are those ballasts/restrictions final or are they gonna be different tomorrow again?

Why is it ridiculous then? We should test these settings before starting any sort of series no?

Indeed a little bit short notice for some testing, but lets see what the results say. Hopefully we can have a bit of spread in cars. Last DTM races I ran the Merc and Alfa, so I am thinking of taking the Sierra for this one.

When race post is published I expect that info is accurate for making decision what car to take and do some settings, right? Now I see that I just wasted basically 4 hours for nothing and I need to do everything again... Beside cars ain't so dramatically different, least in my hands, so I think i'ts better leave them alone and drive all kind of tracks, fast,slow and medium speeds.

Forgot how cool these cars are to drive after so long since we used them.  8) Alas with a p-cup race at SRO tomorrow I won’t get enough time to try them all.  :'(
Hope you can get the balancing closer, will make for a cracking series.

I tryed the 155, Sierra and Mercedes. They seem quite good in balance.

Thanks Fabri for the youtube link. Very entertaining stuff. :)

I did quite some laps in the Sierra and needed a bit of setup work to get it going. Still it seems rather hard to drive on its limit. Then I switched to the BMW on default setup and was as fast within 6 laps and it looks easier to handle over race distance too.
So I am probably not fast enough with the Sierra to extract its full potential, but there seems very little purpose for me to take the Sierra in a proper series as it will be harder to keep a decent pace.

I will stick with the RS500 for this race though to see what's what.

Tried all the cars very briefly. The only one I liked was the M3 so I'll go with that. Gear sets seem a bit odd so I'll have to have a play with those but generally it seems good out of the box. As for the others, Merc felt numb, Alfa was ok but I didn't even realise it was 4WD  ???

My mate had a Cosi as his company car back in the day which he also had chipped. It was very rapid but at the end of the day it was a Ford Sierra! I hated it then and I still hate it now  :tank:

@Fabri, that video is fantastic  8) I have the BMW DTM side of the story on DVD, called 'Adrenalin' which is superb and also covers their Batmobile car era, definitely worth a watch.

@GT, yes expect i will go M3 as well as i love it (had a 325i back in the day  8) ) The gear ratios just arent quite right for this track, either tad too long or tad too short  :P you compromise either the twisty sectors or lose out on top speed on the straights and even ping off the limiter.

I should be able to join the race at the last minute, but I can't be sure of it. Anyway I didn't try any of the cars and I won't be able to do any lap before today's race at SRO. From what I reckon, original BMW and Merc were very close without ballast, and Alfas were nearly 1-1.5 secs faster in any circuit. Never tried the Sierra yet. Not even downloaded :)
I'll probably pick the BMW anyway.

Hope to see you tomorrow ;)

just spent my lunchbreak trying out the other cars (beauty of working from home!) They all seem spot on to me, i was able to match my times in each and enjoyed driving each of them so i am happy to take whatever car is needed to balance out the test tomorrow night.
(Did 3-4 laps @ 2:14 in each car with 30L fuel and default setup) Expect that might come down to 2:12's with a few tweaks and more laps.

I did notice all these cars are heavily front brake biased in the setups, is that how they were back in the day?

They haven't changed since last week ???
My dogs' been badly ill and I haven't even fired up Assetto since Sat morning let alone changed anything so don't know what you're complaining about?
My previous post was just responding to SRW's comment - I have no intention of changing things now until I have enough data to warrant it.

Ah, it was sunday when I tested and least then #1 post have different values for ballast etc., no idea what values server has set on sunday when I tested Sierra online...

Nothing has changed since 11:30am on Saturday - so no setups have been wasted because no-one managed to get online before I finished testing on the server.

I edited the first post on Sunday using my phone because I realised I hadn't done so on Saturday.

Ok, that clear things out, thx for info. I'll take Beemer tomorrow btw.

Hope they're well now mate.

I tested a little bit all the cars apart from the Beemer and am rather equally damn slow (in the merc even a bit more but with default setup). I guess it's useless data tbh but here they are.

Last time we ran these myself and Jeffrey used Mediums for a half hour race - my times on the server were mediums for that reason (be sure to check the dates for the Sierra times, it has some silly fast times from before I managed to slow it enough so ignore those!)

Ok, there seem to be a lot of Beemers on the grid tonight?

I haven't touched the brake balance in the Sierra yet as I did not seem to lock up any wheels badly. Maybe there is more to gain there. But it looks like it does not have adjustable brake balance from in the car.

Thanks for the tip MJ. The "Adrenalin" story looks to be available on youtube now also. Will have to watch that one too.  :)

I will go with Alfa, too iconic.  8)

I have on my car the same Momo steering wheel.

Darn. Tried to plug my Rift in another USB. Big mistake as I had to re-do the complete setup again. Missed the race Hope you had fun

Sorry to hear that Stefan.

I had an absolute blast battling Fabri for the entire half hour.
I somehow forgot about the Alfa being 4wd so got monstered at the start and didn't have to 'fall off' by accident  ;)
After catching him I made a pass into T1 on the 2nd lap and then pulled away a bit - I think Fabri made a mistake or over-drove a bit.
After putting some fast laps in because I could, I then 'accidentally' fell off at the hairpin and rejoined behind Fabri.
He was a bit more wise to where I could get alongside so blocked better this time. It took ages to get back past as a result. The Alfas' 4WD allows you to park it on an apex and take a very tight line while still out-accelerating the RWD cars at low speed.
The BMW, Merc, and Alfa all have near identical power/weight ratios now, so as expected the Alfa suffers slighty at high speeds due to transmission loss and gives you a chance at the end of straights.
After re-passing Fabri again I turned on the ABS for a laugh, within a lap the car simply failed to stop and I ended up taking a shortcut through the final chicane  ;D
I slowed and let Fabri re-catch me and turned the stupid ABS off again and carried on racing.
About 4 laps from the end I made a mistake in the Shell-kurve and clipped the kerb with my outside front wheel. This fired me at the gravel and allowed Fabri back past.
I had a hell of a fight trying to re-pass Fabri, he covered every attempt I made.
In the end I threw a dummy move at him into the final chicane in order to make him compromise his line - I don't think he saw me drop behind on the turn in for a better line as he stayed to the right - this gave me a better exit line so I was able to pass on the outside of him exiting the chicane  8)
I was far enough ahead that I could stay beside him onto the start/finish straight and take the inside line into T1.
After that I just put my head down and concentrated on a clean run to the finish.

As soon as I get time I'll set the server for Zandvoort with the current handicaps. As it's at sea level it will highlight whether the restrictor on the Ford is correct for all tracks or if I'll need to adjust at each course according to altitude (I believe AC simulates altitude/air pressure so the turbo cars have a massive power advantage at high circuits), I should have the handicaps 'set' by lunchtime Saturday if they need adjusting.

I will award myself one of these for last night  :wetfish: that or sack my mechanic who was too busy smoking and sipping a schnapps to change my gear ratios  ::)

I had lengthened the ratio for qually as it was pinging off the limiter on two straights with low fuel. Qually was rubbish anyway as i hadn't practised any low fuel/soft tyre runs and the softs weren't that great. I was faster on mediums and more fuel by half a second in the BMW.

Anyway, qualified 3rd. Only realised how long my gears were when the lights went green and i got mugged by about 4 cars within 100m  :o not a good start! But soon picked them off except Maxime. He had good pace and i started over-driving the car to try and make up for the poor start and time lost getting past a few cars. Inevitably at Turn 5? the first downhill left, i carried too much speed into the corner and despite trying to hold it, did a long sweeping slow oversteer spin and lost two places again  :taz:
But that meant i enjoyed some cracking chases with these great looking cars, the Alfas and Sierras looked fab!  8) Enjoyed a few good battles back to 4th again but Maxime was now 9 seconds down the road. I was setting constant green laptimes on stracker but never got close to put him under any pressure. Shame as i think we would have had a good battle in the race. My longer gears were making me suffer in sector 1 and at the chicane with the car bogging down.  :(

The Alfas had much better traction out of some of the corners and the Sierras seemed better on the brakes, but with the BMW's agility i was often able to turn in tighter/sooner and catch them on the following straights by getting on the power sooner. Good stuff. Just need to add an Opel and we have the full set  :)

Really hope the series can attract a good group of drivers, these cars deserve a full grid  :)

First outing for a while, managed a couple of laps, missed a gearchange and locked up. Must try harder...

Didn't enjoy the M3 last night. Car just seems very unstable and too willing to want to swap ends especially if you go anywhere near a kerb. Brought back memories from the last time we raced these here which led me to give up on AC for a long time, so I think I'll give this series a miss.

That sounds an awefull lot like a setup issue - try one of the other cars, the BM is probably the most agile and therefore the most skittish.
If it's trying to swap ends then just tame the setup a bit, they fastest when edgy but can be made quite safe (Increasing the front ARB is an easy way to increase stability).
Try the Sierra, I think that's probably the most progressive in handling as it's the older car and also has very good ABS according to the other guys.

I also forgot, but I think there may be a Cavalier that has a variant aimed at the Kunos DTM cars - that would give you added stability if I found it and it can keep up..

Take Merc then, that garden shed is very stable and understeery...


No swearing please

A race to make show. Rather than pushing to the limit, we thought about having fun. Every corner I was looking for a powerslide. To do this I had to enter the corners a little slower because I had a bit of understeer in entering (which I was unable to solve with the setup). The exit however was elated. 8)

Unfortunately I damaged the gearbox considerably missing a gearchange in 2nd gear and every time I used that gear I had troubles. This made life a bit difficult for me in heavy brakes (T1 and chicane).

A great close battle with Tim.
In the beginning when he passed me, I had a bad time with a curb and I lost one second there. Luckily he ended up on an oil spot at the hairpin shortly after and went wide (strange because you could see the oil ;D).

After that it was an even tougher battle, with crazy overtaking, smoking wheels and side by side actions.
I think we did a good show, in full DTM style.

PS: medium tires can run 30 minutes without any problems, I raped them and they still worked. :angel:

adjust the rear toe to give more toe-in and stiffen the front ARB. Increase the coast diff if too snatchy off the power. I ran 65/40  Welcome to try my setup, was good for 2:12 race setup. I also had 0-0 for the rear dampers and raised my front end height by +1

I found the other cars less edgy to drive than the beemer to be honest, so maybe change your steed for more pace/enjoyment. :-\

Is it a new series starting next week? I will miss round 1 if so as it will clash with my PCGB series that runs bi-weekly  :'(

No - just a test race. I'm not committing to anything without understanding the cars or it could turn into a farce.