SimRacing.org.uk

Grid/server capacity: 22

Practice: ~19:20 (60 mins)
Qualifying: 20:20 (20 mins)
Race: 20:40 (24 laps)

Track: Longford '67 Download this (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BOmMOEYCbMuBok5m_uFPbtU4HNu97ub7/view?usp=sharing)

Race restrictions: Any driver who cannot achieve a minimum lap time of 2:41.0 in qualification setup should not enter these events.

Cars allowed Maserati 450S (4.5 only). If you have this car already please use it but run on Vintage tyres only please. If you don't have it please pm me for a download link.

Time of Day Setting: 14:00
Start: STANDING
Tyre wear: 2x
Fuel consumption: 2x
Pit stops: Required

Server: simracing.org.uk Wednesdays
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

Notes:
(1) It's best if all drivers can make sure they are connected before the Qualifying session as drivers on track during qualifying will not see cars that join after they are on track until they go back to the garage.
(2) Please make sure you are fully aware of the SimRacing.org.uk Rules.
(3) The AI control should be turned off so that you have control of the car at all times, including pitting. Your player file should therefore read
Autopit="0"
Force Autopit Off="1" // Forces autopit always off
No AI Control="1" // AI never has control over car
If you still finding pitting problematic, experience tells us that its less to do with positioning and more to do with approach speed. A slow approach to pit crew chief has proved most reliable.

Special Notes: None.

Tony, my 4.5 only has one tyre option - vintage.  Is there another variant where there are different tyres to choose between?

I knew that some of the LM55 series cars had tyre choice options but not which ones, so it was a coverall note. There is only the one mod.

Not only tyres are vintage, but the brakes too  :o ;D

Can you reveal where you found the brakes??? I am sure that they forgot to fit any on my car when they built it!!! ...........maybe they were trying to save weight?  ::)

Arnold has placed a long rope on the passenger seat, with one end attached to the roll bar and, on the loose end, an old ship's anchor that Arnold found in the barn.  :o

Hi !
I do have the LM55 mod installed but when I want to go to the server, I don't have this class!
I usually drive with the people from Altbierbude, this is probably because of the setup ...  ;)
Do you have any idea what to change ...? (I don't want to do a new install right away !! ;))

Thanks

It's probably to do with the Alt guys using their own class system. I'll send you a link to our Car with the CORRECT class in place. Probably the best way to go is move your Alt cars out of their folder to somewhere safe, then install our carset into the now vacant area.

Thank you,   Too bad, I'm going to redo an installation
Of course GTL did not appreciate these manipulations ... :) no longer works normally ... :-\Too bad, I'm going to redo an installation

Let me know if you need assistance Christian

It should be noted that the final round of this short series takes place at Le Mans.

For this event, car selection will be based on your Championship standing.

For details go here https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=23231.msg429961#msg429961

Thank you, I did a 2nd installation, it works !! ;)
I would try to be in the race Tuesday evening ... :)

Wednesday evening !

oui  ;)

Hey Christian i am happy to see you in GT Legends as well! :)

Yes !! just to change place a bit ... ;)  (chris61)

Our practice server is running in case you want to check everything is Ok for online racing.

yes, thank you, I have already ridden  ;)  (nice track !!)

You're an Admin's dream driver  :thumbup1:

Our practice server is running in case you want to check everything is Ok for online racing.
[/quote]
yes, thank you, I have already ridden  ;)  (nice track !!)
[/quote]
You're an Admin's dream driver  :thumbup1:
[/quote]

 ;D ;D

Only just arrived and already sucking up to the boss!  ;D ;D

I cannot understand why Tony has never used that description of my efforts in GTL  ::)

as far as I'm concerned, I haven't done much yet ... :D

Well, nightmares qualifies as dreams as well, so...  :whistling:

Awesome car/track combination. A lot of fun. Bit i am sure there will be a lot of incidents in here. Especially turn 1.  :ban: :oops: The car is braking really hard and the circuit is very tight. I think the pole sitter here will have big advantage if he can stay away from dive bombs :D And i mean unwanted dive bombs - it's just so easy to miss your braking point.

Whenever we have raced cars in the LM55 class at Longford, we have never had more than 50% of the grid reach the finish line.

But I'm confident that we will do much better tonight  ::) :whistling: :yes:

Just a reminder that a pit stop will be required in this race. Always a good idea to practice doing one.

50%? That high? :o

It's the braking that is the issue here for sure, and should you shoot off the track at that first braking area there is a large patch of what appears to be swamp material waiting to catch you, and you can't get out of it judging by my efforts....

I've got no faith in my ability to not smash the daylights out of the car in all honesty, so even if I do get as far as the pitstop it'll be a long one to repair the damage! ::) ;D

Fortunately, there are real loopholes (I don't know if that's the right term for you!) at every turn and not an invisible wall like most of the time on other circuits !!
 ;)

Is it UK time?

Yes

I have done a quick recce on the server and attempted a dummy pitstop. In itself, that was not a problem other than trying to decide where the pitlane speed limits are?
Maybe my old eyes are failing but I could not determine where I need to hit the speed limiter? as the brakes on this monster are less than perfect it is kind of important to drop anchors early enough to stay legal  ::).

Also can I suggest that cars leaving the pits should keep to the RIGHT of the track and leave the LEFT hand lane for cars passing the pits at full racing speed. Unfortunately just where slow cars will be accelerating, is exactly where the track narrows and things might get a little tight?

Pitlane speed limit is 30MPH/48KPH.

I have been unable to find any clues of where the pitlane is deemed to start. I would suggest it's worth being cautious and slow to pit lane speed limits well before the actual pit lane starts. Best I can offer you.

Guys please donwload the car from Tony. When Mat join i had flickering screen and can't drive.

Same, I can not enter and the game is blocked !! I see 2 safety cars displayed !! (and I loaded the car !!)

Fix it ASAP please. Tell the people who have (or are using) a different car model to change accordingly.

it looks like there are 3 people on the server

Here is the download link https://drive.google.com/file/d/1BLYLJ57mvg7QWRxdB9orgknqwOvDIDyZ/view?usp=sharing

We have the correct car, but it appears some people on the server do not (older or different version/model).

Tony we are not stupid :D We have the car - The newer one, but not the old you drove years ago.

Still can't join, it keeps reloading everyone's car. Please stop the server temporarily and make everyone install and use ONLY the car from the link...

Yep ! Same here. I have Tony's car loaded and things keep flicking through the list of names  :-\


I joined the practice server this afternoon and I was alone but all worked fine.

Guys

This is the old download for the Mazzer run it from your top level GTL directory

 https://phspok1.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/Race/SRou_GTL_Maserati_450S_1.0.0.0.exe (https://phspok1.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/Race/SRou_GTL_Maserati_450S_1.0.0.0.exe)

I think that only makes it more confusing Matt

It works with anyone else with the old version
it only doesnt work with your link which has only one car in it

Does you new download have only one car?

downloaded Matt's fix and no joy...same prob

I copied the .exe into the LM55 car set

Can the server be restarted ??

Works here with Matts link

Clive copy it on the main GTL folder...

I hope not

Yep, only car 19 with Tonys link.

Dont do that. copy the file to the top level GTL directory and double click it

Qualy has been delayed

Check the .car files. If they look like this ".xcar" delete the x so you are left with ".car"

Completely lost interest after somebody kicked me off the bridge and seconds later I read in chat "wtf - didn't you see me coming?"

was enjoying that, I was hounding Hristo a little, not often I can say that. then Daz caught up, and passed, then he fell off
so of course I had to go off in sympathy, then he  went off again, and I passed, then he passed and i went wide under the bridge
and was splashing about in a swamp with no escape  :'(

Race a little disturbed  ;)... and I slipped in the swamps  :'(

Results and replay now posted.

Well, it was certainly eventful...... ;D

WARNING

The following post contains much groveling.

So, tonight we had much confusion, caused mainly by the Admin team, e.g. me, supplying a car download pack which only had one car un-locked (#19).

Unfortunately this was only discover about 30mins before the qualy start time. Thanks to Matt for posting a working download.

Quite how this error remained undiscovered is quite beyond me but it did.

I promise that I will now double check all downloads and hopefully this will never occur again.

Big apologies  :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:

WT  :no:

But you made it Daz, even though you were not sure  ;D

BTW in race chat it was commented that the pit lane speed limit should have been posted in the race announcement.

It isn't for this reason. Most driver's have the pit lane speed limiter activated (by key or button) so never actually need to know what the speed limit is. They don't need to know, the limiter does it for them.

If a driver does ask what the pit lane speed limit is, I will endeavor to find out and post that info.

Did the Maserati have a working speed limiter for you? Wasn't working on my end, I had to control the speed manually

That was me in qualifying. You were just exiting the pits while I was on my flying lap. Why would you stand there in the middle of the track going slower and not let me through is beyond me. Not nice...

Pit speed limiter worked for me on the "L" key

After more than a decade racing at UKGTL I feel that it’s time for a break as a regular
in order not to run the risk of losing the love for the game.
As most of the equal opponents are gone and in the long run it’s getting boring to turn your rounds alone
at the back of the pack I maybe will concentrate on single events with track & car combos I’m fine with.
I will stay active here, posting results & watching developments and as admin over at evolution-modding anyway
taking care of other small projects in GTL (hopefully to be released soon).
Thank you Tony (and all UKGTL staff) for your great efforts and work you’ve done - and still do - over more
than a decade and which was ever highly appreciated.

 8)

Yes. I had a limiter functioning

Have to say that I agree with your sentiments entirely Kurt. I too have found a dwindling lack of interest in races where I know I will not be competitive and not really have other drivers to compete with. I have a full race season created for Season 22 but beyond that I will probably not be bothering anymore. And if your not going to race that's one less driver I can compete with, as I feel that we are of the same(ish) standard. Hope you reconsider mate.

Too bad these departures! There weren't too many of you. :(
I was hoping to do some shopping here in sufficient number ...  ;) (to change the German side, them on the other hand, too many and lost in the mass)
(I hope that the terms will be well translated !!)

Sorry to hear Kurt. You leave me alone at the back  :'(

It is not just you less quick guys who are finding their interest waining. I too am getting a little tired of GTL at the moment & am having more fun driving RaceRoom & have skipped the last two Wednesday GTL races because I have found more enthusiasm for RaceRoom's Weekly Enduros which also run on Wednesdays. This is mainly due to the facts that I find Monza 10k a boring track & I have never been able to drive the Maserati 450S successfully & the combos RaceRoom were running were more appealing. I will still turn up when there is a race combo I like or the RaceRoom event is not to my liking.

Regarding you slower guys not having anyone to race with. I don't know if Tony can rejig some of the races so that the fast guys have to drive a slower car to even things up a bit. I know Tony has run series in the past where the championship leaders have had to drive a slower car but often I found that the slower car was not slow enough & the fast guys could still win with it. So maybe the slower car should be at least 2s a lap slower than the other alternative.

Just my thoughts.

I have been race with altbierbude for a year now after spending a few years with modern sims.
 But I got tired of not finding what I liked (a lot of mod at AC but too scattered, limited content or paying at rf2 and rrr, dear pcar2 trouble ...) in addition to not finding a little  "contact" with other pilots that one can only have through a forum (either anonymous pilots, or discord or other) Today not many sim offers the diversity of quality like gtl / PnG / gtr2.  I'm even coming back to gpl right now !!
But things are turning for everyone  ;)

Reconsider Kurt, please. You are a nice guy and a sportsman. If you don't drive you will be missed.

As of Geoffers proposal - be careful because you can make the faster guys depart that way as well. I have no problem to fight in the back but i don't know how the other's will react. The problem is not that there are faster guys, the problem is the numbers are low here. Only 10-12 people. If we are double, there will be battles for everyone.

And i have a feeling that some drivers are not testing at all. Even i, that drive different car and track every day, have the time to at least make 10 laps before the practice session. On the other side most of you don't know how to set up the car and for that reason you have problems with more of the cars. I can see that easily when i watch you drive. So i don't think the problem is that someone is faster. Maybe you need to look for the problems on your side?  ::) :)

As of the race - amazing with tough car/track combination. I had to be concentrated all the time to just finish and i wasn't able to do that, but fortunately i was lucky enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Zevjf3ayfM&t=1864s

I care less for winning than for the battle on track. I would happily drive a slower option and wouldn't depart because of it, much like I have with the GTL Cup. I believe it keeps more drivers more interested for the longer term.


This was a tough combo to be fair, and I had no real faith in the idea of making it all the way to the end, many incidents of one sort of another in quali and practise made it seem highly unlikely. And of course, despite my best efforts, I ended up flying off the road by outbraking myself early in the race. It took a release off the brakes to make sure I didn't take out Hristo....So, it was the usual chase scenario, and despite my very best efforts it wasn't quite good enough to close in on Dimitar at the end, the pit stop was just a little too long despite running to the last drop of fuel to come out in front. Had some fun after Hristo let me go putting a few quick laps in, but finding your rhythm that late in the race is normally not going to be advantageous. I normally don't get on with this kind of thing, so was pleasantly surprised to see the chequered flag.

Grats to DD, apologies to Hristo for the contact on the straight.

Sorry to hear about your decision Kurt, I hope that you will still take part in more races than you miss.

I will throw in a small note of caution here based on many years of observation in GPL Leagues. I do not want to be overly pessimistic, but now is the time to try and do something about numbers.

As Tony has noted there are currently around 10-12 regular( ish) people taking part. I can think of several leagues that dwindled to 7-8 regulars, and when they reached that threshold, there was an inevitability about the downward spiral to oblivion. Just as with the issue that Kurt has highlighted, there was not enough of a spectrum of ability to make it fun and drivers slowly evaporated, until even the aliens decided that racing the same 4 drivers each week was just boring and they left too.......end of league.

Over at UKGPL we recognised a similar pattern a few years back and the group of moderators made a conscious effort to build the membership numbers.
FWIW we took a hard look at which races/cars attracted the biggest grids and incorporated those into each season. We also tried to "handicap" the aliens in for some races in various ways so that ordinary members had an outside chance of tasting champagne.

We also recognised that we needed to attract the fastest drivers, who would in turn attract other fast guys who wished to race against the best. We were successful enough that we were then able to run 2 grids in some classes, so that we have PRO grid and AMATEUR grid which brings the ability spread closer in each race. This of course requires sufficient numbers to make 2 decent grids.

I guess what I am trying to get across is that simracing needs sufficient numbers on a grid to make it interesting for everyone, from pole to tailender. Also we realised that even tailenders  like the taste of champagne occasionally.

Please understand that I am in no way criticising Tony or anyone else, because I enjoy (most) of the car classes that are run and quite enjoy the learning curve for those cars that I am not familiar with. I enjoy GTL despite my computer ineptitude and battles with Microsoft etc and I sincerely hope that we can keep the numbers viable.

Nice read guys but i have a feeling that some of you are saying: "Hey, don't test, don't learn the setup, don't improve your driving, because there will be nobody to battle with"... If you want something you have to fight for it. That's how life works. If you want to be faster - start learning the setup, start learning how others take corners, when they start to brake, when they start to accelerate. Stuff like that. At the end most of you are driving for years. Don't tell me you didn't had time to learn how to setup the car.  :-\

That's not quite how I read it Dimitar.

Now, what you suggest is perfectly true, very much so for those that want the competition at the sharp end of the grid.

But, what if you are running at the back, and no matter how hard you practise or train, and juggle the setups around, you only ever race against the same 3 guys every time. I can see the frustration there for sure, and the thought is then why do hours of practise if there is no net result that is different I guess. That will no doubt remove some of the motivation.

When I started online in GTL in 2006 or so I spent hours and hours lapping for each event I did. I did this for at least 7 years, but then the arrival of child number 2, and a change of job meaning I was not home so early all the time, meant that my time was better spent doing other things. People have different priorities at different times, but ultimately this is supposed to be fun, most treat it that way. To that end, not all can be expected to spend as much time on it, it varies from person to person in my view.

I am sorry Daz but all of this are just excuses. Don't tell me there are guys that drive more than 10 years and they don't have the time to learn the basics of setting up a car. I am here more than 1 year now and some of the guys on the back never asked for advice or help on improving their performance. Either you have desire to learn something or you just find an excuse.

Yes, everyone have families, staff to do, but when you are a driver for years - please don't make that kind of excuses, because i won't believe them.

Don't get me wrong here. I like these drivers and i want them to continue with us. But if they thing something is wrong and they don't have the fun anymore, maybe it's their fault at the end? I don't want the new guys to start thinking that it's just for fun, everyone are accepted and they just stop making progress. Yes we are all friends here but for that reason i think we must say the truth sometimes even if it's not what most of us wants to hear. The most important thing is to make progress together.

I really did not intend to start a stone rolling, but ...

Back to topic:

Result (https://www.avonrise.co.uk/srou/kurts/_2021//19052021_Longford1967)


8)

No worries Kurt. We are just killing the time :) Trying to find the reason why you and Tony wanna quit, which we don't want to happen.

I have been driving sim for a very long time and I am sure I will never catch up with you ... :-[  Yet I understand the settings (at least I am trying) I understand the mechanics, but there are pilots, good pilots and also excellent pilots ... :D
And then he will always miss the real sensations, it bothers some more than others I think (it is my case)

"Practice makes perfect" or at least less imperfect....

I do not believe that the only reason you are as fast as you are Dimitar is the amount of practice you do  ::)
There may be some skill and judgement involved perhaps  :ninja:

I do respect your point of view Dimitar, but that's not quite what I was saying. There are levels to all of this stuff, and in this situation we are talking about levels of skill, knowledge, availability, motivation and interest. All of these vary from one individual to another. I know you are racing most nights, but it isn't possible for everyone to do so, including me. I envy your freedom to do so  ;D ;)

As far as the setups thing goes, I have given people setups of mine that have just made them slower, despite it being the magic one for me, that's down to driving styles etc I believe, so it isn't always the magic bullet.

 

And that is where we do most definitely differ, to me it is just for fun and should always be.


No, to me the absolute most important thing is to have as much fun as possible with it, in good camaraderie. Just my thoughts, I know we are all different.

Kurt, sad to see that my team mate is semi-leaving, but understand your sentiments.  Thought long and hard about retiring myself after last season, but let myself be talked into continuing; something I have regretted a few times already this season.  However, if Tony intends to call it a day after 2022, I might stick around till the bitter end.

I practice hard every week, often for hours, reaching the best I can do, only to get online and find the same 3-4 guys always 2-3-4 secs faster a lap. It's demoralizing and frustrating, when you're 'blessed' with a competitive streak. Every week you have your nose rubbed in the fact that your best just isn't good enough - far from it in fact. If I knew what to change in my setups and/or driving, I would bloody well do it!   Setups I experiment with, but as there's almost an endless amount of combinations, finding the magic one is something I'm obviously not skilled or lucky enough to do.  And as Daz says, there's more to it than just the setup - sometimes you faster guys share your setups, but in my case at least, it doesn't make me equally fast - sometimes slower in fact, because I obviously don't know how to make use of it.

Add to that that there's not one size fits all. When Hristo shared a setup for the Rover SDI that I found brilliant - made the car a dream to drive, I tried reverse engineering that setup, to learn what he had done to achieve it. Have since tried applying the same kind of settings to every GTL car driven, if possible - on some the fast & slow bump & rebound settings are locked together. On some cars it works well, on others not.  At any rate, improvements are usually in the range of a few tenths and not nearly enough to close the gap.  So finding the best setup  for all the different cars we're using, would require an amount of time I just don't have, or am not willing to commit.

In races, I often find myself in a no-mans land between the aliens and the rest of the field, at least if I don't screw up like yesterday.  If the results you can hope to achieve are just meh, and if there's no one to have a close battle with, then it can be hard to keep your motivation up - merely providing the cheap background for the aliens to demonstrate their superiority, just doesn't cut it for me..

I have to agree with that. For example, when Dimitar started with GTL over a year ago, he was far off his currrent level. It means he put in months of practicing, learning, adapting, developing habits, to become competitive and fight for the podium positions more often.

You can't just repeat the same mistakes, have the same approach, for years on end, and expect things to change. I've noticed the same mentality in UKGPL in the past, with some people. They would rather quit than try to improve. It's always the "I'm not good enough, they are aliens" sort of excuse, which honestly always feels a bit insulting when you personally know you're only quicker because you worked your ass off to reach that level. Talent has very little to do with it in my opinion.

How often have I struggled with some cars and track combinations, being 1-2 seconds off the pace of the top runners. Even in this race Daz soundly destroyed us in terms of pace. Did that make me give up? No, because you never win races just on raw pace alone...

I'm convinced that if you put in at least some amount of practice and try new things with your driving style, with the setup, try to adapt a bit more, you'll improve. Regardless of "talent", age, experience. Of course if only close battles are what motivates you and nothing else, then I can see why the moment you have to regularly run alone, you're going to give it up. If the difference is small though, if all you have to do is make up a few tenths of a second to be within the next group of cars on the track, then it's worth doing something about it.

As for handicapping, it worked fine most of the time in GPL, but only because you have plenty of cars with similar pace there. Here most championships have cars of vast differences between one other, ranging from 2-3 to 5-6 seconds per lap. Also, what is key in GPL is that you may have a heavier car with a powerful engine, which may work well on a fast track, yet struggle otherwise, and the opposite - a light underpowered car that would be OK on the slower tracks.

If something like that could be achieved (cars of similar pace but with different weight/power ratios, and a variety of tracks to give all cars a chance), I don't mind handicapping, but then again, for efficient handicapping to work, you need to somehow rate everyone's ability.

Another thing is, I always liked the 2 worst results dropped rule in UKGPL. It made for a competitive championship all the way until the end. It gives people motivation to participate in all races, even if they had a few bad results and seemingly dropped a lot of points in the standings.

As always, if anyone needs help with driving or setup, feel free to message me. I've helped many to improve their driving over the years and it always works, regardless of what their perceived talent was. As long as there's the desire to improve, it's possible.

I know most of you approach this casually, but that doesn't mean you have to just give up on improving. A great amount of satisfaction comes with doing just that, gaining those extra tenths and seconds, figuring out how to set up the car to your liking.

You should have just asked.  ;D As you all know, there's no one setup approach that works for all cars. Even if you know the basics and principles, sometimes the car/track combo is just weird. Whether it's because of the way they made the physics of a particular car or because the track is unorthodox, you just have to experiment with crazy changes to save time in finding a better setup.

If all you do is make a small change here and there, and then waste 2-3 laps to test it, before you even have a solid base setup, it feels like a waste of time.

Also, you are rarely going to have the perfect setup, and almost always someone is going to have a better setup than you. That's when trying to adjust your driving can help. I used to make detailed blog posts about how to drive the cars in GPL, but here we have so many different ones that it feels impossible to cover them all. I often find myself outdriven by Dimitar, Geoffers, yourself, Daz, etc., and only through sheer determination and luck do I somehow pull off a better result. Occasionally it just doesn't work out.

One important thing is making sure your FFB is properly set. If it has too much damping, if it's too strong or too weak, it can cost you so much confidence. Likewise with steering wheel's degrees of rotation.

To use Dimitar as an example (without asking his permission  ;D ), in that recent race we did at Aintree, he was clueless in how to cope with the car we both chose to drive there. He was on the verge of giving it up. Instead though, he had a look at my setup, my driving, and figured out something that worked out for him. It's just so easy to give up before you exploit all other options. Personally I've learned so much over the years from simply watching others and from discussing setups with them.

As Dimitar pointed out, almost none of the drivers at the back of the grid here ever ask for help or discuss those things. How do they expect to improve like that? It's as if they've resigned to having hit their absolute limit, which is just nonsense. You don't need to have a competitive streak to want to improve. Do it for your own benefit, not to match someone else's pace. For example when I'm practicing (and I don't do much of that anymore), I just use myself as a reference point and keep on pushing until I've completely exhausted everything or have ran out of time. Even during qualifying, I would often keep making changes until the start of the race. Sometimes I do setup changes right before the start, without any chance to test them. You just have to experiment and risk more, explore things outside of your comfort zone.

Erling you won't be that fast if you rely on others setups because as Daz said everyone has their style of driving. Just make the cars function based on your style and what is best suited for you. Don't try to find the best combination. I don't practice for more hours here but often i can find the best setup for me very quickly because i know what i want from the car and how she must behave. My setups are far from perfect but when i have the car i want i am at least consistent and consistency often wins races.

You can see that i am often slower than Hristo, Daz and Geoff but i never give up and i am pushing hard, because the car is what i want it to be.

If you are not perfect with setup just start learning 1 or 2 things per race. And after a while you will know exactly how to make the car drive your way and not you driving the cars way.

I made big improvement in the last months mainly because of the understanding how few things in the setup works.

You won't believe how logic and easy some parts of the setup are.

@Daz no worries Daz i am glad we have a conversation, no matter that we have different opinions. I respect your way of view as well. :)

EDIT: If you guys need some help with anything about sim racing, i am here to help, even though i am not the best one.

EDIT 2: This is very common with my Sim Racing Channel. Just take a look on my first try to drive and commentate and my latest video. The key was improving and learning every day.

Thanks Hristo for the insights and advice - I would certainly like to take you up on your offer regarding help to improve; of course without expecting you to commit too much time for this  :)

With regards to setups, I usually have made small changes one thing at a time, to try methodically exploring what does what.  I usually need a lot more than 2-3 laps to test each change, unless it's something that made a radical difference in the car's behaviour, and that's what makes it so time consuming.  If 5-6 laps shows an improvement of a couple of tenths, then I'm always left with the doubt of whether the change is responsible, or whether I just did a better lap and could have achieved it without the change.  I take it also that some changes would require changing other parameters to work, which is what makes it so overwhelming to try out all the possibilities.  Do occationally go wild and jump from 'very hard' to 'very soft' in general, to see what works best, and of course some tracks may require extremes you would not otherwise use. (A U.S. track comes to mind, where a jump right before a hairpin, required a very hard setup of springs and dampers - otherwise I would lose control every time, when the suspension bottomed out during the landing).  Having some general things to try - and knowing why, would be a great help.  Geoffers posted a setup guide a while back, which has certainly helped in some cases. 

With regards to the FFB, how would one know if it's set up correctly - seems there's a daunting amount of parameters in the player file (and thus probably endless opportunity to screw things up royally...  ;D)

And thanks to Dimitar for the insights and advice (posted while I was typing).  I have some general settings that usually seems to fit me, but whether it's actually the best for me, I don't know.  As mentioned, a setup from a faster driver is not always an improvement for me, so obviously driving style, hardware and setup of it plays a big part.

I usually do a bit of practice on Tuesday or Wednesday before races, so we can figure out an hour that works for both to go together on the server for some practice. You could show me your setup and then I could watch you drive, plus you can watch me drive as well, and we can exchange thoughts. You're not slow though! I've noticed sometimes you're quicker or that I need more laps to get up to speed (or improve consistency), so it's not like there's a massive difference between us.

I'll send you a PM next Monday or Tuesday. Dimitar also practices around the same time as I do, so all 3 of us could exchange ideas, plus anyone else who would like to come. No pressure.

As for FFB, I'm using a premade ini file that Dimitar sent me before. Not 100% happy with it, but it's not bad.

Thanks Hristo, that sounds great!

Okay, so, no one is leaving ...? ;D ;D

Crikey! this has sparked some conversations and maybe that is not a bad thing if it focuses attention on UKGTL.

Perhaps I should throw in my views here. Apologies if I ramble a bit  :dots:

Dimitar's comments about setups/practice/commitment are all valid and it works for him.
Daz's comments are more aligned with my attitude to simracing and for me it is the "fun" element that is important. That does not mean that I do not want to win or finish on the podium and I am very aware that on the rare occasions that I do commit to some pre race practice, I tend to be quicker or at least be more competitive.

I will admit here that I have never fully understood the GTL setups ( I grew up with GPL and I have a reasonable grasp of the cars and the various parameters). Geoffer's cheat sheet has been very useful, but by definition is limited in what it can offer. I had to chuckle when I read Erling's comments about Hristo's Rover SD setup, which I also used and found to be excellent. Like Erling, I spent hours trying to reverse engineer those parameters and apply to other cars, with very little success. I guess that proves that I was not understanding what the changes were doing?

I think Hristo's offer of a "masterclass" in setups could be a winner, although I would imagine that he won't be able to cope with 20 wannabe drivers swamping him on a Tuesday evening??!!  lol.
I recall Hristo's driving blog from GPL and often read ( and used) the info he shared, but like others have said I could never really exploit his GPL setups, as they just did not work for my driving style.

Over the past 12-18 months I have converted to H shift and tried to adapt my driving style( in both GPL and GTL). It was a step backwards initially in terms of speed, but it does add realism and hopefully I spend a little less time sideways and a put a little more energy into going forwards.  This has resulted in a change in the way I have to drive and do my setups for GPL & GTL.  I now find that my rear tyres are not at melting point after 2 laps lol.

I am probably deluding myself, but when I get a GTL setup that works for me, I feel that I can at least bother some of the faster guys and make them earn their champagne even if I can't quite match their pace.
I would also throw in a "age" caveat as well. Some of us behave like we are 20yr olds driving a Sierra Cosworth, but in fact we are around 70 yrs old. Whether we like it or not, our reflexes are probably not as sharp as they were 10-15 yrs ago and often survival in a race is a better goal than fastest lap.

I will try and join the training sessions and absorb some of the knowledge.

If Hristo has the time, perhaps he could expand on Geoffers' setup guidelines so that people who are struggling can move their setups in the right direction?

There is plainly still a lot of passion out there for GTL, so let us hope that we can harness some of that and keep UKGTL a good place to race.

Christian, in case you are not aware............there are also GTL races held on Monday nights too. Details may be found here https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=24772.msg476432#msg476432

Yes Yes ! Not too many things at once! ;)
 I'm trying to go back to GPL too !!
A small place for RF2 as well.
And the headache sets in a little too often ... :-\ ;D

What's "Geoffer's cheat sheet"  ???

Setting up a car has ever been one of my main problems - I am not technically minded  ::).

Nice reads btw.

Hang on Clive, I'm only 48..... ;)

Anything anyone thinks I can help with, please feel free to ask. I will happily share what knowledge I have accumulated over the years.

Coaching is a great idea if people want to get involved, again if anyone feels I can contribute please, please shout.

Clive, thank you for recognising the fun element in all this. I do agree that the fun can be increased if the competition is sharper, and the tightest race at the front of the grid is the most involving, that is very true.

Hristo has a point about finding tenths being good enough sometimes, half a second per lap across a decent race distance can transform the result after all. If he is willing to pass on tips on setup parameters, and also spend some time coaching I am sure those tenths could be found. I did do something quite similar when I had 3 of my closest friends racing with us at NoGrip a number of years ago, and it is possible to help people find pace for sure. I would be more than willing to chip in here.

But, given all the rest of the nonsense going on in the big bad world we live in, this is a diversion is it not. I don't like to think anyone is made to feel they are not having fun anymore, whatever level they are racing at. Just my personal opinion. I am really pleased to see this conversation take place though.

It is a setup guide I posted some time ago, but I cannot find where it is.

However try this one, it is from the RaceRoom forum & gives broadly the same information, but obviously you can ignore the bits about traction control & aero as it mainly doesn't apply to GTL.

https://forum.sector3studios.com/index.php?threads/setup-charts.16827/

This is the guide I have from Geoffers (hope it's ok I post it here Geoff):

Have a setup guide that I printed out from NoGrip many years ago that I use. I will reproduce the main part of it below, it may help some of you. I have another much more comprehensive one that I obtained from another website, but I find it a bit too confusing so rarely consult it. Before using this guide you really need to determine where the car is not responding as you would like.

Here it is:

Understeers into corner
Soften front bump
Stiffen rear rebound
Soften front springs
Harden rear springs

Oversteers into corner
Stiffen front bump
Soften rear rebound
Harden front springs
Soften rear springs

Understeers mid-corner
Soften front roll bar
Stiffen rear roll bar

Oversteers mid-corner
Stiffen front roll bar
Soften rear roll bar

Understeers on exit
Soften front rebound
Stiffen rear bump

Oversteers on exit
Stiffen front rebound
Soften rear bump

Caster – more generally helps turn in but you can go too far, keep increasing until it feels like it is not improving then go back a touch.

Tyre pressures – even temperature spread across the tyres when hot.

Camber – set so that tyre temps are a few degrees hotter on the inside.

Front toe – a little negative at the front helps turn in.

Rear toe – more positive helps to control oversteer, use 0 on low powered cars.

Brake bias – Keep moving to rear to help turn in until car gets unstable on the brakes, then go back a couple of percent towards the front.
   

Sorry Daz lol, I did not mean to imply that you were an old fart like me  ::).

Thanks Erling, that is the guide that I have printed out next to my rig.

Unfortunately it does not address the diff settings and the impact that changes there will have on the car ( When I joined GTL, Geoffers suggested that the values in GPL vs GTL are reversed because one is ramp angles and one is locking? ). Also the slow/fast bump/rebound settings and how they impact on car behaviour.
If we are searching for tenths....every little helps.

Since switching to H shift I have discovered ( and this is totally incidental and not necessarily connected) huge chunks of time in the braking zones of GTL. I could never understand how the fast guys were braking 50mtrs+ later than I could even contemplate. It transpires that where I was using my GPL technique of left foot braking, balancing gas and brakes into the apex, this was compromising the braking effect in GTL. I now find that I have to take my right foot completely off the gas and use just the brakes and gears to reduce speed, effectively right foot braking.
When I get the % brake effect properly balanced, I can stand on the brake pedal, and drop the gears, to slow the car very quickly. Although I screwed up the Longford race with a mistake at the chicane, I knew that I was braking up to 150mtrs later than I was able to do when we raced here before.

You are far too exuberant and flamboyant in your driving to be an old fart Clive, I refuse to believe it...... :thumbup2:

For the record, I left foot brake, and I know I am not the latest of brakers either. But, I was always told to make it about how fast you get out of the corner that was important, by getting the throttle fully down as early as possible. The longer the straight, the more important that becomes. So, brake a little earlier, get the apex speed right of course, but because you are not overrunning the corner you will maximise the straight. Tips courtesy of Pero Grozni back in 2007 or so......

From my windy hideaway at the seaside.

Gents, what an interesting and inspiring topic this has become. I respect and value everyone's contribution and I really enjoyed the read.
Many of us have been racing each other over a period of ,in some cases, almost two decades. Great to see initiatives to help improve our driving where possible. That's what friends are for aren't they?
To me GPL and GTL are my weekly escape from the sometimes grim reality we live in. Racing with you guys offers me so much pleasure it is hard to put into words. But I will try anyway in a number of brief comments:
My simracing nights are invariably coloured in a number of moods: smile, Grin or chuckle, laugh, loud laughter.
When ? ah well....
"When Geoffers is in front of me on the starting grid in his Mini and I know I am going to crush him in my rear wheel drive before T1" (grin)
"when two laps later Geoffers zooms past me in the Mini and disappears into the distance" (laughter) there's no stopping the man when he's on the pace.
"When Kurt is in war mode and suddenly creeps up from behind ,refuses to make one of his slight mistakes and drives away from you as if you weren't trying to keep up" (big smile)
"trying to follow Clive in a rear wheel drive V8 negotiating corners at angles yet undescribed in mathematics." (loud laughter)
"Waiting for Tony for a good battle and being passed and completely devastated by him" (laugh in amazement and awe)
"Knowing that Matt can be provoked into going faster every lap until that one corner where he slightly overdid things (grin) but as it happened I went off at the very same spot too (loud laughter)
"Until recently humiliating Erling at the start in his bigger engined car(smile) until someone told him not to use autoclutch and he practised rocketstarts himself. Couldn't even stick on his tail ! (laugh)
"I never manage to stick with Daz for more than a minimal number of laps but as long as I do I know Daz will refuse to be outbraked by anyone. So when you challenge him, brake late, brake later, this is insanely late, he will always brake a fraction of a sec later thus going into a corner at an impossible angle and while you're already cheering his disappearing into the undergrowth he somehow manages to catch the slide and under the strangest movements of the vehicle he makes it through the corner in front of you ! (very loud laughter)
"Trying to keep up with Fulvio in an Alfa. There's  Alfa DNA in his system" (smile)
"Underestimating Andy's pace and consistency. This goes back to our GPL years. You think you beat him and then comes the finish and he is positions ahead of you (big smile for the clever driver)

There's so much more I could tell but I think this will do to illustrate the great amount of satisfaction I get from this sim and the UKGTL league.

Please let's try to keep this alive for everyone to enjoy it in his own personal way. And a special thanks to Tony for all the energy put into this.



Ps. on a side note. I am trying to create  a grid of late fifties early sixties Gts balanced in performance(think MGA,MGB,TR3,TR4,small Healeys, early Porsches, Lotus 7 etc. not the Elan) If there's any interest for the project I will continue but it may take a while. 

TBH I've had the same limited success in trying to reverse engineer other people's setups and I mean that in general across all sims/mods. It's next to impossible unless you talk with the person who did the setup and also watch them drive, to try and understand how they exploit it.

Also, we simply have way too big of a variety in terms of cars here, made by so many different modders, using different tyre physics, plus we drive on so many different tracks. What works for one car at one track, may not even work again for the same car on another track. I think in GPL it's a bit more consistent because the physics are simpler overall. GTL uses the rFactor 1 engine, which is just more complex, especially when it comes to tyres.


That's the whole problem, isn't it? Trying to drive someone's setup without adapting it to your own driving habits, preferences. It just rarely works. Heck, I can't even use some of my older setups when I try them now, because our mindset and habits keep on changing over time. In fact sometimes I may have a setup that I was happy with while testing the day before, yet dislike it when I test with it today. That's what happened in the last hill climb event we did for NoGrip - I thought I had a great setup, until I didn't  ::)


If I was to switch to right foot braking right now, I would be spinning in almost every braking zone and would be terribly slow. Kudos for making that transition, it's not easy, especially when you're used to left foot braking in GPL for so many years.

As an example of how bad I actually am on braking precision, even with left foot braking, is the fact that I can never outbrake Dimitar, no matter how much I try. He is just superior under braking. It's something that's plagued me forever. I guess that's where my talent runs short. It's only because of the unrealistic use of throttle under braking that I can compensate for it. As soon as I try to do that with a more realistic car or modern sim, I fail miserably. In that regard, I do understand how difficult it is to try and undo bad habitts and learn new ones.


I think reflexes are overrated. If you have to react to the car, you've already lost control or pushed it too much. It's all about confidence and anticipation, which is what a good setup can give you.


Not sure what those setup guidelines are, but if it's what was posted above, I'm generally against such kind of cheat sheets. The reason is they're way too generalized and they also don't help you understand what the actual parameters do, how the car parts function. For me personally it's much easier to try and imagine the actual effect and function of a setup setting than to just use it blindly to cure handling deficits.

Also, what works for one car may not work for another. This is particularly true for damper settings, because they are abstract numbers and unless you open up the physics file for the car, you don't know the actual stiffness. Not that you need to do that, but it means a slow bump set to 3 may differ vastly between 2 seemingly similar cars.

I think the only way to somehow come up with a setup guide for GTL is to first group cars of similar physics and setups together, and then approach each group separately. Even then, it's tricky. For example and as you probably know, there are 60s Ford muscle cars which drive so different to one another and the reason is different physics, particularly the tyre models. With one, you may be faster when you drift it around, with another you have to keep them straight and avoid any drifting. The tyre temperature and wear makes it even more complicated.

It would be much better if you simply build a mental "database" of understanding how to tackle different kind of cars/handling as time goes on, than have a generic setup cheat sheet. Of course, some basic knowledge can be helpful. I'll think about this and try to figure something out, perhaps post it on google docs or something.

The main thing I have learnt recently from watching the really fast guys on RaceRoom (sorry to keep referring to it, & yes there are people considerably faster than us GTL front runners), is to use as much of the track as possible. Approaching a corner get the outside wheels on the kerb, the inside wheels at the apex & the outside wheels on corner exit, I know on some of the older style tracks we use there are no kerbs to use but get as close to the edge of the track as you dare. So the more of the track you use the faster you can take the corner. I always thought I used all the track but when you watch these fast guys you realise that you don't & you are losing corner speed because of it & a tenth at each corner can add up to seconds over a lap.

Nice read guys. I am happy to be part of it. :) And BTW don't think that learning the setup wasn't fun for me and i did it only to be fast. No, i did it to be fast, but to improve myself as well and this gave me great motivation and pleasure. And i still have a lot to learn. Meanwhile it will be better to understand how the parts in the car are working. Then you can find the logic and it will be easier to understand them.

Hristo, I am not suggesting that the setup guide I posted is magically going to make every car faster, they are guidelines to how car setups can affect the car. I agree they do not work the same on every car & that they are based on what generally works on real world cars which may be completely different on virtual cars. I think though in general they work well on the original GTL cars but can also be next to useless on the physics of some of the add-on cars we use.

I have also heard that setups used by the uber aliens of the sim racing world are totally wrong for real world cars. It is all a case of exploiting the physics of the sim.

Dan: Thanks for a most amusing read - a few grins provided from it here  :D

Hristo: There's a parameter for the advanced GTL setup which shows actual damper settings instead of the relative ones - I have it set and my damper values can be for example 7000 N/m/s (not that I know what to do with them..).   Can't remember where to select it offhand, as it's years ago since I did it, but will try to investigate and get back.

With regards to braking in GTL, there are some cars I can only prevent from swapping ends under braking, by keeping a little throttle on during the braking. Not easy to do every corner, but quite effective.  May not allow for the latest of late braking, but if it prevents a spin..

Correction:  The damper settings units has nothing to do with the advanced setup - my bad  ::)

It's a parameter in the .PLR file:

Damper Units="1" // Show damper settings as (0)clicks or (1)actual force units

Thanks, Erling, that might be helpful for anyone who'd like to compare the actual damper settings between two similar cars, with similar weight and spring settings.

As for braking, I'm exactly the same, I just have to use a bit of throttle here and there, otherwise I can't keep it on track. Kudos to those who can brake so precisely without doing that.

@Geoffers - the issue with unrealistic setups is that some cars have unrealistic physics in one way or another. The physics engine itself, despite being so old, tends to produce mostly realistic results, as long as the parameters are correct.

Hi all,

As one of the missing backmarkers, I'd thought I'd just pop in to mention that I'm still reading the forum and rather reluctantly missing the races. I came close to having another go on a few occasions but since I'm working again I tend to be too exhausted to even get the box with the wheel and pedals out, let alone install the whole shebang again.
Still, it's not as bad anymore as it used to be so maybe some day. No promises though, summer's on its way and that's my worst period of the year (COPD, obesity, hypertensia, hypercoagulability, insomnia, I've got it all).
So, Kurt, Tony and all 'at the back', maybe someday we can give the club of 'people who just don't bother to get better' some new life  :P ;)