SimRacing.org.uk

Practice 1:	20:15	(10 mins)	full time drivers only
Practice 2:	20:25	(10 mins)	reserves may join too
Qual 2:	20:35	(20 mins)
Race:	21:00	(22 laps; approximately 40 minutes)	note: no warmup!

Cars allowed: any GT or G2 from the UKGTR Skin Pack v2.2 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=27) (see this thread (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2228.0)) (G2 cars will not score points).
Weather: Dry
Track: Monza GP 2004
Race Start Time 14:00

Server: UKGTR GT Sprint
Password: here (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2342)

Notes:
(1) Please make sure you are fully aware of the UKGTR Rules (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=7) - especially the speed limiter starting procedure and the rules about in-game chat messages.
(2) Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?ind=lm2&group=36).
(3) You will not be able to join the server without the skin and ballast pack (see link above).
(4) Drivers may only change cars twice in the season without penalty.
(5) The race will be based on distance, not time, to avoid a premature end.
(6) For this race only, the Use Of Track Surface (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=7#cutting) rules are relaxed so that GTR2 will be the sole arbiter of whether a corner has been cut.

Important!

In the light of the large amount of corner cutting which has happened in the Endurance Masters and NGT Sprint races, for this race only, the Use Of Track Surface (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=7#cutting) rules are relaxed so that GTR2 will be the sole arbiter of whether a corner has been cut.

That means that drivers have more leeway than normal to use the green painted areas as well as the curbs.

The rules about giving back a place taken (or successfully defended) as the direct result of a cut (as determined by the game, for this event) remain in effect.

In addition, a driver who causes an incident after losing control because of heavy use of curbs or green tarmac areas may be held accountable for that incident in circumstances which would normally be classed as a racing incident.

So (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/3871/gtr22007012616441145gm3.th.jpg) (http://img143.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gtr22007012616441145gm3.jpg) is legal?

If you cut too much at those corners you'll hit those yellow/black 'bumps', then you'll loose time anyway, is what I'm always thinking ???

Not sure I'm too pleased about this idea...I can understand that it's difficult to police this sort of thing, and I admit myself to taking too much kerb at the second chicane at times....but I've seen some atrocious cutting in online races, especially at ascari and the first chicane. I'm sure most people will drive fairly cleanly anyway, but it opens up the possibility for a couple of drivers to win purely because they cut better than others.
Locotus was penalised at Donington for cutting, now is everyone going to be rewarded for doing it?

They don't slow me down very much. Suspension settings maybe?

For this race (GT Sprint and Endurance Academy) only. We will discuss what to do at Hockenheim later.

A cut like the one in the screen shot is clearly and unambiguously illegal under the existing SRou rules and has been since we tightened them up as the result of a GTL race at Imola last year.

I don't like this :( GTR2 is very relaxed with regards to corner cutting on this track. And I suck at cutting corners, always end up facing the opposite direction  :)
So now I'm at a disadvantage just because I can't cut corners  :-\  As if I'm not slow enough as is  :P

Please reconsider this. Especially after the incident with locutus at Donington

But,in your original post it said it was all up to GTR2 ???   ???

That cut right there won't give you a warning by GTR2 (unfortunately ) .

I don't get this new rule. I suggest sticking with the original rules and don't make any special exceptions at all

I think Dave means that by the current rules on the website it would be illegal, but for this race only the rule will be relaxed.

Unfortunately a whole load of drivers have been unwilling or unable to abide by the existing rules, and this has generated an enourmous volume of incidents which the moderators need to review. Rather than allow the situation to continue I made an executive decision to use GTR2's cut detection for the final two Monza races to avoid increasing this workload further.

Whilst there are places at Monza where you can gain time from this, you can't gain as much as you'd think, and if you're hopping the curbs (and especially the yellow and black blocks) regularly, sooner or later you are going to get a warning from the game... and/or plant the cars firmly into the barriers or the gravel (or both).

I didn't take this decision lightly and frankly I'm very disappointed that so many members have chosen to completely ignore the cutting rules, especially as some of those self same members were the ones lobbying for the rules to be brought in in the first place.

I understand it must increase the administrative load when Monza is raced....is there no other option?  :-[ Just seems like joining the bad guys instead of showing them the right way etc

If there really is no other option, I guess we better all start practising kerb hopping for Sunday/Tuesday....

Exactly,I agree 110% with this.

And I honestly can't see the problem. If people break the rules they need to get a penalty. So,there might be more workload on the admins on Monza for instance,but fortunately not all tracks are like this.

I gave up racing in our Danish GTR2 league recently after finding out just how much people were corner cutting on Imola. I'm not going to race online on that track again ever.  :-[

I'm not going to start kerb hopping just because of this. I'm going to drive like I always do and I'll have to accept the decision.

But I strongly advise against it. I'd prefer sticking to the rules

With all due respect, do you have any idea how much work is involved in checking every driver for cutting? 26 drivers for 80 minutes each - you do the maths and then say whether you think it reasonable for us to check!

Definately not. It sounds like a mammouth amount of work and I can see the reasoning behind it (as I said before).
I'm just trying to think of any other ways around it that wouldn't lead to huge work loads or corner cutting. Not having much luck....seems that this is the best solution.

Regardless, racing has been very good as late, so gd luck all on Sunday/Tuesday  :)

I'm not sure on that.

On the second chicane i have found i loose 1 sec per lap  there as I follow the track and others drive through it. Some have the technique and it works every lap where as my set up often lands me in the wall! I can't master it at all but it's hard watching people gain an unfair advantage just tempts you to do it too. They obviously are not getting penalties either

The rule was only introduced because of Imola and I've made it perfectly clear already that this is a one-off situation and that we will revisit the whole issue once we've got Monza out of the way.


That's tantamount to suggesting that we change the rule because you're not very good at setting the car up. Some people aren't very good at hopping curbs because they set the car up too stiff, but nobody has asked us to change the rules so that the curbs are out of bounds.

At the risk of sticking my neck on the block :-X, i would also disagree with letting people 'cheat' just because its hard to moderate.
I totally understand the amount of work it would take to check everyone, but surely the suspects need to know that they may get caught out by someone seeing the replay or by a following car on track.
If certain people were using it as a blatant way of gaining time lap after lap or in crucial on-track fights then it is plain rule bending and should be punished accordingly, otherwise the only people being penalised are those who strived to drive within the rules.  :-\

Of course, you guys run this show and we all have to respect your decision.  :angel: ;)

The trouble is Mark, we have not had a single report of cutting for those races from any driver outside the moderating team, and this includes you as one of the main people who asked for the rules to be tightened in the first place IIRC. It is simply far too much work for us to check methodically - as I mentioned above, in an endurance race there is somewhere in the region of 30 hours of replay to check. Even with speeding it up, surely you don't expect us to do that do you? Another factor is that we cannot get the replay of the qual session, so we have no idea who may have cut then. We will try to find an answer, but there may not be an ideal solution to this.

Ah yes, the grey zone issues, I love them.  ;D

There are two reasons for cutting track.

One, which happens often enough, is "oh ****, I missed my brake point" or "oh ****, brakes are overheating, again.". It happens - check my last Monza race.  ::)

Second one is doing it on purpose, but that's very easy to spot, since it happens more or less on every lap, besides, one can clearly see if cutting is induced by driving error (car-not-under-control  ;D ) or on purpose (car looks smooth & stable enough and yet cutting occurs).

Anyway, my point being: if one cuts track on purpose, he knows it, hence he can beat me 5 seconds per lap, but I'll still know who's "driver" and who's "ready do to anything possible to "win"". And so does he. Or she, to be politicaly corrrect. ;)

It all comes down to one's character.  8)

None of us are asking you guys to watch every minute of the replays and we understand that the majority of cases of corner cutting will go unpunished.  However, relaxing the rules is not the way to go!!  At the moment corner cutting is done by the minority here.  If the penalties for consistent corner cutting are severe enough, these people might be discouraged from doing it.  Relaxing the rules will only encourage more corner cutters; those of us that try to stay within the rules might be tempted to join them because it will be the only way to compete with them on the track...
 

Yes, Darren, but you then end up with a totally unfair system. You are right that it's the minority, but quite a large one - a third of the drivers in one race were cutting to some extent (more than the odd occasional mistake) and we can't just ignore half of those because we haven't got time to check. It needs to be all or nothing IMO. Even checking one driver takes about as long as it would to moderate an incident, of which there are perhaps 3-4 on average per race otherwise. I just don't have that amount of extra time to give.

Another possibility might be for drivers to act as helpers for the mods, checking for cutting, but whatever we do will take time to arrange, hence Dave's decision. I really don't think it will make a big difference over 2 races, but at least everyone will be judged the same.

 should have explained that a bit better. I don't just mean a slight run over the kerb, it's clearly outwith the defined contours of the track. Kerbs are fine and watch any form of motorsport and that is exactly what happens. Taking a straight line though a chicane and missing both apexes by some distance is defined as cheating.

 I understand that you have made the decision as you can't possibly check every car on every lap. Hard job, and it seems you have a lot to contend with to start with.

Let's make something else clear - our rules are at least as arbitrary as those used by the games, arguably more so.

It's not cheating as long as the rules are clear and objective - the playing field is level whether we define the limits or the game. By relying on the game to check things are arguably more fair because everyone's laps are checked all the time and there's no way to cheat by hoping to cut unnoticed.

 i understand what you are getting at but the rules were defined before racing started at Monza, but because they were breached the goal posts moved. It's not your fault as I must admit since being involved with this site you especially put in a great deal of effort and I have enjoyed it.

I think the guys themselves have to draw the line and play fair.

Think it's a sensible decision given the problems we've had at the last two races. Moderating cutting incidents is very time consuming, as to see the line the driver usually takes you have to look at their entire race . I was asked to check a single driver from a GTL race once, and it took me 20-30 minutes.

whats a sensible GT laptime around here with the ballast pack cars? And by sensible, i mean 'acheivable' to a mortal not an alien time. :P

1:42-1:43

43-44  = Sensible
42-43  = Fast
41-42  = V Fast
Sub 41 = Alien  ;D

Bear in mind these are qualy laps ;)

Morning guys!
Just thought I'd add to the excellent discussion!?

I have to say I took the kerb on the entry to both chicanes on a regular basis!?
That seems reasonable on this track!? As you say you can overdo it and the game will complain so
it's reasonably self policing I guess!?
Remember that at the back of the grid we are not always as consistant as the 'Aliens' !!
To be honest, whether I cut them or not was never my issue!? I was only fast through there when
I was precise and smooth!? which basically meant missing the kerbs!

But to go back to the basic point, I agree with Dave, relaxing the rules for this track ONLY seems a sensible
option. Thats what a moderator is for!!

Obviously I'm new to this but the beauty with this league / forum is it does seem to attract people who want to race
fairly and friendly!?

M.

when people build tracks they incorporate the 'imaginary' boundary that GTR2 has to police the corner being cut. So the three warnings then the s/g (and one for every cut after that  :-\)...

...so for troublesome places  (thinking imola and monza from this post) can a track builder amongst us perhaps modify the original GTR2 tracks? So establish a reasonable cut until Dave & Co. are happy with it?? 

then we'll have Monza SRou 07  :).....and i'lll still hate claus :alien: for doing the same times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  ;)

Whoohoo, on that basis i can consider myself 'fast'  ::)....with my 1:42.6 PB so far  8) ;)

Which car is that in Mark..if you'll join me in the Saleen i'll send you my set  ;)


That is about right yes.

Pole should be high 1:40's with ballast. 550 ofc  ;)

Err, I have actually. ::) I believe the track should be "within the white lines", the curbs should be for the outside 2 wheels not the inside 2 wheels. But that's beside the point.

The only solution is to either let the game decide or be able to modify the tracks (as I suggested in the moderators forum) as we simply can't spend the time trawling through 80 minute replays for 26 cars. I don't think anyone knows enough about modding tracks to be able to do the latter though, although I have posted on RSC to see if there's anyone that can help.

The other option is to not include Monza, Imola or Spa in the calendar at all, which would be a shame for me.

while enna pergusa was designed by a corner-cutter hater!! cos those tyres are stone solid  ::)

I think they should have water in them, so that if you knock them out the way the water that spills out onto the track slows everyone down in replacement. :laugh:  Add to that a remote detonator (in case no one knocks them down) to add a water hazard part way through a boring race could make things exciting. :ninja:

Magny Cours is a cuttersparadise aswell ,and Hockenheim, nice short season we end up with  ???
Time for the addon circuits then,well forget Montreal....
Serious guys arent we carried away a bit ,when i sit behind my wheel on a tuesday evening ,with my glass of Calvados ,the last thing i think of is cuttin just want to have a good time,think thats the spirit with 99% of the guys here.So lets relax and race, let the game decide. And the occasional bad guy will fall by the roadside sooner or later ;)

Jan

Hi all am much better now than I thought I would be . So will have a go tues in the Lambo.cheers gerald ps am still testing new mboard / sata discs

Be good to see you there Gerald, hope you make it.

No praccy server up tonight  ???

Haha, I just thought the same thing  ;D

Server twas up, and a GTL one, restarting the GTR2 one as I type

LOL I am a muppet, seems I had called it Practice Surprised no one spotted that  :P

Hello all,

Is there a 1:47-48 bracket? Maybe classed as 'Might as well go backwards'!

I need to check my internet connection when I get home tonight. Got my modem now, but the line isnt live yet. Orange have been so slow with all. Been without internet at home now since 10th January.

Regards
Colin

Yup there is, I'm there  ;D  Or almost, during practice I was at 1.44 and during race it was 1.45-1.46. I can only dream of some of the times posted earlier  ;)

It is very true though that consistancy is the key to endurance and as has been said before, slower is faster.

Hopefully I get in tonight all being well and there is a slot free for me

In my continuing quest for GT enlightenment I shall be trying my fifth consecutively different GT car in a as many races. The Team Shark liveried F550 is my weapon of choice tonight. Hopefully it means I can get near the top 10 again. Then I just have the Lister and Lambo to try in anger before deciding on my car for season 5.

Simon,

What would quailfy me for a FT slot for season 5? I will most definately compete the last 2 rounds of this season. Tonight is a slight possibility also. I know i'm way off the pace but I will hope to improve as I feel I have been, albeit mostly offline, since I got my DFP.

Regards
Colin

LOL WTF!!  ;D
enlightenment  hehe :D  ...btw Shark...you haven't tried the saleen dude, it rocks @ Monza...like boom boom with the braidmaids!  ;D

...i'll see you guys tonight if im home in time!

Saleen rocks the house :rockon:  Install the v8 sound pack and turn up the bass    :punk:

So who was this Simon 'Shark' Gymer bloke at Brno then?
https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?ind=lm2&event=244 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?ind=lm2&event=244)

 :P :P

Ooh Sharky, that takes balls, switching to the 550 for Monza ;D. Good luck defending your statement :). Try the Lister, it can also go into the 41's and has a higher top speed than the Lambo  :o

I don't really care m8 :laugh: I haven't used it all season and want to give it a go (especially as it's in Team Shark colours). :shifty: :drool:

There were lots of complaints before the Endurance race (yes before it even happened) about 550s and then only ONE turned up. ::)

I'm not exactly competitive in GT so it will only help me be top end of midfield so in fact it will just benefit everyone that the race is more competitive. :P I'm losing 20% of my points should I get any so no one can complain, if they do  :2guns: :gun_bandana:

 :angel: :lol: :lol:

lol

GT Enthusiasm!  ;D

You want my F550 setup Simon? I did a 1:40.6 in it the other night.

Was looking forward to this but took my GFX card back so I'm gonna miss it :( Hopefully I'l be back for the weekend :) Have a good race boys 8) Go go go Sharks ;D

Only if I change my name to Zurb, I grow 3 tentacles and develop tendancies to hover over the track in a spaceship.

 :alien: :alien:

Thanks for the offer though. :)

you must have been to holland then  ;D

Well, that is not what I expected.... Race report later, that was fun ;D. But had an incident  :'(, Lap 10 or so and had damage as a result. OK Pits here I come. Repaired and left pits. Still something was wrong, so returned to pits. In a hurry, it appears as if I had choosen the AI (Paul Knapfield, do you see him in the results?) to drive my car from the pit board menu. He drove off  :oand I had no control ???. So quit out. I take it this is not a feature that should be enabled? Did not even know you could do that online.

Anyways, Off to view replay.

Driving like an idiot tonight!
Sorry to anyone I may have troubled.
Had the podium lapping at lightning speed! tried to keep out the way, clipped the grass,
180 spin, hit Paul I think!?
If I did Paul / ? I can't apologise enough!?

Very embarrassed!?

M.

 :death:

That was a tough one.

I knew CJ would imrpove his endurance qually time, so I knew that 1:40's would be pole. Luckily the 550 gave me the edge.

The start of the race went quite well. Just like a few races ago, I could pull away from CJ for the first few laps, but again, the gap settled and he started gaining from that point on.
I had to push to keep the gap, but I was also trying to be gentle on the tyres, as I expected it to be a last lap fight. In the end, after 40 minutes of racing, the gap was only .3 s  :o .

IF the race was any longer....good thing it wasn't then  ;D

Replay (http://ukgtr.simracing.org.uk/) and provisional results (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?ind=lm2&event=252) available.

Martin,

Very sorry mate I think I nudged you going into Ascari. Outbraked myself  :-[

Apart from that I think I did okay, made it up to 15th then had a horrible few laps, 9 and 10. Then I don't know why but I pitted and didnt mean too!  :-[

Congratulations to winner and podium finishers

Regards
Colin 8)

A-ha, not read the reports for the Donington Acedemy Endurance have we ;) This exact same thing happened to me :( In my view, as AI is not allowed via a server setting, this is a bug but for the solution so it doesn't happen again Radius has the answer, posted here (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=2558.msg42431#msg42431)

Unofficial Lapchart (http://www.lapcharts.teamshark.org.uk/Lapcharts/Monza Sprint GT 30-01-2007/index.html)

Well done top three,also a big compliment to MarkMc in the Viper steady stuff mate  :punk:.Enjoyed it,sweating the last 2 laps as MJ was closing in very quick,the checkered flag came just in time :whistling:

Jan

Hey no worries Martin nothing you could do about that! I saw your wheels on the grass as you went around but unfortunately for both of us I couldn't quite avoid you but no damage done and hopefully not for you either. I had just been lapped myself so I would have been coming up to race you for position so in a way you helped me out but we lost the chance for a bit of a battle.

Strange race for me set a PB in qual so pleased with that. As normal battling around the 10th mark when Perdy lost it braking into the first chicane. I then lost in under braking trying to avoid him so it was a bit like synchronised pirouetting   ;D . Whats worse is that I then got a stop and go for cutting the track while backwards  ::). Took that and last place it was. To my delight a few laps later  :P I think Perdy had a stop\go as well and he left the pits as I went by. He chased me hard for a few laps until he lost it at the exit of Ascari and got a good bit of air bouncing off the barriers. Unlucky mate. The rest of the race was just playing catchup but with the speed of the entire field could only gain a few places and those were due to off etc.. Congrats to podium.

Well that was a fun race. Had a race long duel with Baracus which started with him driving past me on lap 1 after the first chicane. I managed to fight back into the second chicane (hope I left you enough room Bara, was worried for a sec), and again he just drove past on the exit. The Fezza's are pure evil round this place!
After that it was just a battle of consistency and nerves. We were about 1.5 secs apart for the whole race and that gap fluctuated a little each lap, throughout each lap. It was soo frustrating to repeatedly close 0.5 seconds round the chicanes and lesmo's, only to lose it all down the straights every lap. Oh well - was a fun dice and can console myself with top non-Fezza finish and a pb in qualifying. :laugh:
Well done to all finishers. And nice save into T1 Bara - it threw me off soo much I think I lost more time than you did!

See ya for a (wet) Hockenheim.

Oh yeah I forgot about that! Thanks :)
All my mental energy went on trying to keep my head together in the last few laps with you closing in like a demon!

If you had not have run wide out of Ascari on lap 21 to give me a little breather I don't know what would have happened as I was already as tense as my body would allow! :)

Was a really good race even tho it was a bit of a procession in terms of passing, but really interesting all the same.

FreQ, you definately gave enough room at the 2nd chicane then. I knew you had the inside line and could hear you did a much later braking effort than me so I tried to leave the gap for you, but lucky for me I could get the power down a fraction earlier as I didnt have to slow as much (being more on the racing line than you), so managed to breeze past again ;P

Then it was soaking up pressure all the way but I started losing the plot a bit on the last 10 laps or so :D
I blame my front left tyre that was much more worn than the other 3, nothing to do with my state of mind ;)

Phew, glad to hear it.

Give yourself some credit. I very nearly lost it there because I was having to push soo hard round the corners to stay with you. I've seen a few drivers get speared off the track at Ascari when they catch the exit kerbing badly and I did the exact same thing. I was the lucky one there, not you.  ;)

Was a good battle. Plus it's always nicer to lose to someone who sounds like they enjoyed the race.  ;D

Another poor race for me at Monza, to complete a dire hat trick of events here in S4  :(

I dont know why but i am consistently a second off my practise times here whether i am in an RSR or the 550  ??? I couldnt even squeeze into the 42's in qually and yet i had been doing mid 42's consistently before the race night and likewise for race pace where my normal mid 43's slipped down to 44's and 45's. :(
Was in the top 10 qually for a while but whilst everyone improved their times i just slid down the order to 16th?
Race start was way too timid by me and i struggled for grip for the first few laps dicing with Jan and Jure for a while. I ran wide/too deep a couple of times and kept letting others past and then struggling to get back past them despite seeming to have more pace. Eventually went off down at Variante when i braked too late on the outside of a 3 car battle and went bouncing across the kitty litter, without any contact, and carried on my way albeit down to 19th :(
With some clean air i was finally able to nail it and set about chasing down and getting past several cars back upto 14th.
I was closing on Jan at something like 1-2 secs a lap and closed right up with a lap remaining but the concertina effect of heavy braking and power straights meant i couldnt stay close enough to draft him before the finish line. I was hoping Jans tyres were shot but his Saleen still had loads of traction out of the corners. Another close battle between us over :fencing:
I still feel a bit of a novice in GT cars and need more 'race-practise' in them to feel confident in traffic, as i still often brake like i am in an NGT.  ::)

Well done to Ruskus, beating CJ is no mean feat  8)

Hi Mark,

I think you and Big.G were battling together behind me when i outbraked myself into T1, I was raging! You both passed and I really wanted to get a scrap together because I felt comfortable in the Viper and on the brakes. probably served me right for being a bit cocky!

I'm just glad Monza is over with those f**&*&"! -king cars starting with a "F" and ending in "550"  ;D

I'll just say np to Leaven for hitting me (happens dude dont worry) and grats to all those with balls in non Ferrari's (except Shark who was testing ofc :D) ...and especially grats to Mark MC who went with the Viper!!!

rofl. sounds like my race story!!!!  ;D

yeah, was a great battle :)  8)

funny enough, I think Jan was the slowest car out of 3 involved in that battle, at least at that time, must have had high speed understeer and low speed oversteer. I tried to stay on your tails to pick up any leftovers, which I did. When I heard and saw your car on the outside, I said out loud (to my GF/race engineer) "he's on adrenalin rush and will brake too late". And voila!  ;D :P


I'd apologise to all that I've clipped and was clipped by. (namely:... emm.... yellow saleen, think it was Jan, u need to fix your low speed agility, it felt like following a Titanic, hihi)

And thanks to winner and runner up for passing me 1 lap before finish, enjoyed the view of your battle, very neat. Hope I didn't get in the way, I let the leader by out of 2nd chicane, then ran wide on purpose out of lesmo2 to let the 2nd one by.  ;D  8)

And oh yeah, at last lap I've discovered TAB button. Was wondering how the hell you guys know who's who on the track. ::)  ;D

Fun race, wasn't sure I'd finish it since the last time I drove was... endurance race in Monza...  8)

As per "i can't match practice times" few of you quoted... I think it's down to lower full race FPS, can't be anything else.

Mark you forgot to mention a tiny formation lap slap you gave me and the following T1 slap as well :) No injuries taken - I love GTR2 for finally being able to scratch that paint!

Err yeah apologies for the paint scrape (didnt even break your lights ;)) on the warm up lap, there was some serious 'speed up, hit the anchors' going on all round the lap  :(
Dont remember giving you any contact on T1 though  ??? But i had my hands full with Jan and Jure so may not have noticed.  :-\

yeah that was a mare of a race...sorry Paul R !!!  :o

i was having a great battle with jimmie and got onto the grass into the chicane! (as you saw)

but also got a s/g.....then picked up another! very bad racing from me! hope i manage some consistency in NGTs!!! ops