SimRacing.org.uk

Season 40 – 1955 Grand Prix – Round 9 – Works - Monsanto Park

This race announcement is for the WORKS.

The ninth race in the 1955 Grand Prix series takes us to Portugal. The street circuit of Monsanto Park to be precise. Built on parkland, the circuit was considered difficult to drive because it crossed so many different types of surfaces, including tramlines at one point. The track hosted numerous races from 1954 to 1959, but only one race qualified as a Formula One event: the 1959 Portuguese Grand Prix, won by Stirling Moss. He won the race in the twilight hours, since the race was purposefully started late in the day to avoid the intense late summer sun.

Race list	=	iGOR
Server	=	UKGPL05_60fps
IP address Server	=	146.199.161.253:32666
Password	=	see above (#post_event_password)
GPL Mod	=	55
60fps Patch	=	60fpsV2newmod
Track download	=	link (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=2717)
Track directory	=	monsanto
Qualifying starts	=	20:45 UK time - 45 minutes
Race starts	=	~ 21:30 UK time
Race length	=	21 laps
Replay	=	here (https://antipastiracing.org.uk/UKGPL_Replays/index.php)

Please restrict chat to emergency messages only including at the end of the race until ALL drivers still racing have crossed the line.

Driver lists and division specific rules can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=1721&theme=6).

Available Tokens:
Note: These are the tokens available to each driver before the 10 tokens are added for making the race start.

Driver	Tokens	Status
bagrupp	7	Works
Claudio Navonne	32	Works
Clive Loynes	0	Works
Cookie	5	Works
Doni Yourth	22	Works
Enrique Farina	9	Works
EvilClive	20	Works
fpolicardi	3	Works
Giovanni Centorame	7	Works
GrandPrixYannick	0	Works
JonnyO	16	Works
Leo Menegucci	7	Works
Moises Pereira	0	Works
Pete Bennett	12	Works
Phil Thornton	3	Works
romanov	12	Works
Sebastian Skinner	20	Works

   This Sunday I'll be traveling, I'll be back at night, good race everyone!

After spending all of my tokens over two races I needed to refill again, so the Gordini it was.
I managed to qualify third just in between Doni and Pete.

Start was obviously slow. The Gordini needs a 5-speed gearbox as I needed the first gear for a good number of turns around this track.
I dropped a few places but I got my way around the drivers that passed, included one beauty around the outside of Bastian.
I could make my way up to third where I had to give my best to keep up with Doni. I could catch him, but a few mistakes dropped me to 4th behind Pete, who on his turn could catch up to Doni. At the same time I was able to catch up with the two for a three way fight.

This unfortunately turned into just me and Doni after I went for a gap on Pete at Windmill Bend. But we made contact and he got spun around. Sorry, Pete, that's on me I think... :(
I put the pressure on Doni in my attempt to get second place, and it came down to the wire on the final lap. In what was one of the most sensational final laps I have ever driven I got on him on the last corner. Great battle, Doni.

See you next race.

Great result with the Gordini Yannick.

I shall watch the replay to see how it is done.

Doni crossing the line rearwards is the highlight of the season!  :notworthy:

Only one way to call this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5O4073zCKA

Great job by Leo to waltz away to a convincing win.  I had nothing for him.  So depressing to see him inch away, lap after lap.  Sigh...

Early laps saw me holding well in P2 with first Pete and then Yannick several seconds down.  I felt fairly confident of holding the runner-up spot provided I didn't bungle it.  That came oh so close to being the case when the Lancia skidded to the right on braking for the Clover Leaf on Lap14 and I had to tip-toe around the outside to save it.  Lost quite a bit of time in doing so.  Pete and Yannick were ever closer now and seeming to be quite willing to take risks that I wouldn't.  Lap17 could have seen it all shake out in my favour when Yannick stuck it up the inside of Pete at Windmill and biffed him off the road.  Tsk, tsk...  This pretty much eliminated Pete from the battle and left me with a small lead over Yannick.  Pete's chances really took a nosedive when he stuffed it into the bales at the Clover Leaf the very next lap and lost a ton of time.  Comes Lap19 and with obviously more grip and cohonnies than I, Yannick tried to shove it up the inside for place at the Riding School.  This scared me wide and he passed.  Lap20 and I got the pass done on the main straight to retake P2.  Finishing the lap, I was a bit wide on entry to the Pit Hairpin and we went through there virtually side-by-side.  Drama!  Last lap and approaching the Riding School, Yannick is able to pull to the right much faster than I in setup for the corner and this forces me to stay tight left.  He takes a stab at a pass on the exit but has to yield for the sweeper to the right to follow.  I didn't have time to set properly for Windmill and on the exit, he's half-way up on my left.  Only the Pit Hairpin left now and bugger it all, I bungled it by going wide and letting him through.  In trying to gas it for a shot up the hill to the line, the D50 got away from me, spun, clipped a pole and I was obliged to select reverse to cross the SFline.  PHEW!  Rather disappointed in the result but it could have been worse.

Moderation published.

If an overtaking driver has any part of their car beside another as they enter a corner (known as overlap), the driver being overtaken should not move across; they should give the overtaking car room and go through the corner side by side, or let them through into the corner and try to re-take them at the exit. Drivers must learn to judge overlap without being able to actually see the opposition, this requires an understanding of the limited visibility provided by the mirrors. As described here.

?

It’s nice to know someone reads the rules Clive  :thumbup2:. Your quote comes from the etiquette (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette) pages which, like the recommended driver behaviour (https://www.ukgpl.com/rec_dvr_beh/rec_driver_beh.htm), describes how drivers should behave in order to avoid unnecessary contact. However, the etiquette pages and recommended driver behaviour are not prescriptive enough to apportion blame for all possible incidents which is why we have the Penalty Guidelines (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/ambitious_overtake). These pages try to specify more precisely what penalties can be applied and why (so we have consistent moderation). In this case what matters is overlap. The penalty guidelines take precedence, if you think the description on the etiquette page is confusing, I can change it to try to make it align better with the penalty guidelines.

Hmmm...

"At turn-in Yannick had over 50% overlap but not quite 100%."

You could re-write the etiquet pages but to me it's the Penalty Guidelines that need attention.

If I can achieve more than 50% overlap at turn-in I expect to be given racing room.  It sounds as though Yannick did his part to avoid contact so it was Pete who should have taken a wider line.

The GPL Recommended Driver behaviour states “If sufficient overlap is established before the turn-in point, then the behind driver has the right to room.” But it doesn’t specify “sufficient”. The penalty guidelines state a 50% overlap is the minimum that can be considered “sufficient”.  The argument being that we don’t want to encourage speculative moves that are unlikely to be successful.

If we change the penalty guidelines so that 50% overlap at turn-in is sufficient to shift the entire blame for any contact to the ahead driver. Then perhaps we should also change the minimum overlap at turn-in to be 0% in order to shift the entire blame for any contact to the behind driver. That would mean the “contested overtake” (and hence no driver is blamed) would be for overlaps between 0% and 50%.

Would this be enough to deter speculative moves or are we just going to encourage reckless driving?

Hi Phil,
I'm busy grandading today but will try to address the issues this evening when I come off duty.

I have been following this discussion from a safe distance..... and thinking, so I had to take a rest in a darkened room to recover.

However, my thoughts are ...

We could discuss forever what actual percentage of overlap entitles a chasing car to take priority through a corner. I think perhaps the more important issues are that we are :-

a) consistent and
b) making sure that all participants understand the rules
c) trying to promote enjoyable racing

Side by side contact in a corner approach situation is probably one of the most common "incidents" that appears in the court system. If by implementing an understandable ruling we minimise those race ending moments and the resulting flame wars on the forum, then surely that is desirable.

I understand Clive's point of view regarding the "realism" of sticking a car down the inside as "last of the demon brakers" but (at least until the software can simulate pain and broken limbs), regrettably experience has shown that there are always those whose ambition has regularly exceeded their ability ( I remember a certain BURT??!!) and some who rely on intimidating their intended victim by playing "chicken" and expecting the car in front to yield the place rather than risk contesting and causing a race ending incident ( certainly in PRO mode).

UKGPL probably has the most extensive and comprehensive set of rules for participation within the GPL community. Whether that is a good, or bad, thing is open to a different debate, but I think we are in too deep to scrap it all now.

Again, I would submit that the degree of overlap is not really the issue, but being aware of the ruling. This should apply to both overtaker and overtakee equally, and if the ETIQUETTE and/or PENALTY GUIDELINES pages are conflicting or unclear then that is where the adjustments should be made??

In my view, the current penalty guidelines have given rise to the era of "lidicrously robust defence", in that the driver being overtaken doesn't appear to concern himself that a car might be alongside because it is so unlikely that the required degree of overlap could be achieved that it makes it unlikely that anyone would attempt a pass!

When I started this lark, I don't think that we had the penalty guidelines, just the etiquet rules, and it seemed to work just fine.

Also, I think that fine tuning of percentages are meaningless for the drivers in question, they just give the moderators a yardstick.

To me a substancial overlap would start when the overtaking driver can get his front wheels level with the rear wheels of the car in front AT TURN-IN.  And here may I say that if I had Yannick breathing down my neck and dodging out for a pass I would assume that his "alien braking patch" would have taken him well alongside.  I would take a wide line.

It is necessary to come down like a ton of bricks on those drivers who just stick their nose in the gap, waiting for the guy in front to turn in and trip over it.  The car on the outside invariably incurs the wrath of the GPL Crash Engine.

In my view, racing exclusively in 55mod, it's only safe to attempt a pass when the other bloke is already on the grass!

I think the Penalty Guidelines were introduced for Season 15. My web site backups, in which have amendments to the Penalty Guidelines, only go back to Season 18 but the mod report for the S15 66F1 race at Zandvoort (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=4711#event1433) describes the incident between you and Evil as a “Blatant Rear End Shunt – 2 places lost” which is the terminology used in the Penalty Guidelines. So it looks like we have been using the guidelines successfully for 25 of the 40 seasons. So the era of "ludicrously robust defence" has been going on for quite a while.

Rather than say the rules encourage a robust defence, I would say the rules place the onus on the following driver to make a clean pass.

Agreed, the purpose of the guidelines is to give the moderators a yardstick so we have consistency. However, the drivers need to be cognisant of the guidance otherwise they will not understand why they have been penalised.

Judging from the overhead view here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/overlap), having the front wheels aligned with the rear wheels would equate to a 25% overlap. So are we in agreement about everything except the degree of overlap?

Agreed

Agreed, drivers need to be extra careful with the 55mod. But you've confused me a bit here because now you seem to be suggesting that the onus should be on the following driver to make a clean pass rather than on the lead driver to yield.

I’m not against changing the guidelines but I think we need to be careful not to base any changes on this one incident. If we consider a situation where 2 drivers are approaching the Parabolica at Monza or Tarzan at Zandvoort. It is reasonable for the lead driver to expect, and be prepared for, an attempted pass; in which case if he doesn’t leave room he can expect to be penalised. However, is it reasonable for the lead driver to always bear responsibility for leaving room even in corners which are not considered natural passing opportunities?

At the end of the day the guidelines are just that, guidelines. So 25% or 50% overlap is a bit arbitrary. It is up to the moderator to take into account any mitigating circumstances, which I think has been done in this case. After all in real-life F1 there are numerous occasions where the stewards take no action even though the commentators consider a driver to be at fault. Hamilton on the outside of Alonso at Spa for example. Interestingly a similar incident between Perez and Russell was only avoided because Russell backed out (whereas Alonso didn’t).

In this case I think the ruling is correct given that the move was speculative and on a part of the track where overtaking is rare and that Pete was trying to race Doni.

If I understand the debate correctly, are we only talking about amending the % overlap in the Ambitious Overtake guidelines or is there something more fundamental to consider? Don't forget there are plenty of other Penalty Guidelines that put the onus on drivers not moving over e.g. in Side by Side Contact (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/side_by_side). So the % overlap is not the be all and end all.