SimRacing.org.uk

All members welcome.

Practice 1	20:00	(45 mins)
Qualifying 1	20:45	(15 mins)
Race	21:00	(40 mins)

Cars allowed: Any car from the UKGTR Skin Pack v2.6.0.0 (see download link below)
Weather: Dry
Track: UKGTR Imola GP 2004 (see download link below)
Race Time of Day Setting 17:00
Start type: rolling start

Server: UKGTR skins 2.6
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

Notes:
(1) Please make sure you are fully aware of the UKGTR Rules (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3349) - especially the speed limiter starting procedure and the rules about in-game chat messages.
(2) The event is open to all registered forum users.
(3) You will not be able to join the server without the skin and ballast pack and the appropriate track - available from the downloads pages (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3356).
(4) Drivers are reminded that they must select ISDN as their bandwidth, otherwise the stability of everyone's connection will be reduced.

The new skin pack is available here (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3356.msg54519#msg54519).

I'll post details for this event tomorrow when I've woken up again. :D

Either way I'm going to miss this one as backshift. The rumour of Spa appeals to me greatly.

I will just practice myself to check things seem ok at my end.

No doubt as usual everything will be fine and I'm raring to go come Sunday

Details now posted. Note the early evening start time.

BTW, I've taken all the success ballast off the server now (except for one - not saying who but he's much too quick ;) ).

what? Mine?  ;D

by the way.....is Imola Really in Hungary? :P

Yes, they moved it with the help of a very large spade and an airship, didn't you know? :-[ :laugh:

Afraid I wont be able to make it tonight, I tore my hamstring on Saturday quite badly and the doc's told me to rest it as much as possible.  I raced sunday but tbh it hurt like hell afterwards :-[ hope the test goes well :)

Mmmm ham... er... I mean get well soon!

Don't think i can make this one im afraid, but good luck to all entering, and enjoy.

What a load of rubbish.  Phone went on T1 and the wife didn't seem to want to pick it up....so I left the circuit hung up the (cordless) phone and threw said phone into the next room .... which led to me getting a load of grief from the wife and totally spoiling my concentration.  One more stuid error vaporised any desire to carry on.  Not exactly good preparation for this season....

Hope you guys had a better time of it.

i had a carp one too!!!

pedals playing up, wondered why car was swerving under braking and went to recalibrate the pedals and throttle never dropped below 50%  >:( so had to quit halve way through quali  :'(

black racing momo seemed bullet proof up till now......but i have been putting of the G25 purchase!  ::)

hope the race went well  ;)

I'm furious >:( >:( >:(
Everthing went  perfect practice,qualification then start race.I started make litle gap about 4,5 sec for second Pribeiro but then time 960 came fatality  error from another driver :o :o :o,I've been overtake him ,then we went in last chicane before finish and I don't know what he did ( maybe he wanted overtake me back :o :o :o)and he hit me back of car and I've been spin.Lost first position and concentration ,I started pushing harder,but with lots mistakes which costs me 2X STOP AND GO  :o :o :o.I've been looking forward for this track(one of my favorits)!!!

[Edited to remove name of driver. Nearly edited the whole bit out but... How many times?! We do not discuss responsibility for incidents in public!]

had a bad time in the Modena. Need to do more testing but it seems to suck compared to rest of the GTC field, well here at Imola anyway. If any other Fezza pilot gets the chance, it would be nice to see what you think of it now its been altered :P Please post any lap times in race and qually spec.
I can do 49's and 50's in the 360GTC here so dont think it was bad driving on my part...though always a possibility :-[  If the car is that bad then i have to do a re-think for the GTC endurance.
I did notice after that i had picked a Yokohoma shod model...is it a pants tyre?  Would the Pirelli shod version be much quicker?
The only other car i could battle with was Wills RS, so seems like the modena and RS may be too heavy now. :-\

hmmm...and that re-juvenated Nissan is a little 'frisky' in its lap times. :shifty:

That was pretty good for my first outing in the Michelin-shod 350Z. Qualified much better than I expected - 2 seconds better! - and was running strongly in the race until John caught me back up and I stupidly lost track of where he, I and the coming corner were with the low sun in the sky. Spat myself off the road and lost about 3 places from 10th.

Gradually eeked my way back up onto Picnic's rear and finally got the mistake I needed to pass, only to run wide a few times in Aqua Minerale and earn a stop and go. ::) :-[

Came out of the stop right next to Reign Man's TVR and had a great scrap over the last lap or two. Big confusion at Variante Alta with PRibeiro lapping us - I totally missed my braking point and had to take to the grass to avoid running into RM. Tucked back in behind him and tried to force a mistake which I didn't think I'd get, but he finally cracked in the second half of the Variante Bassa and I outdragged him by about a car length to the line! ;D ;D ;D

I think the Michelin's wear slightly faster than the Dunlops did but definitely have more grip, and supply it more consistently. It won't cure the Z's understeer in long corners but it definitely will make it more competetive.

And no, MJ, I didn't put a Porsche engine in it.

Everyone knows the Z has a Renault engine. :P :P :P

Results up top and replay here (https://replay.simracing.org.uk/ukgtr/UKGTR%20Imola%20-%20Skins%202.6%20070828.zip)

Mixed race for me, had a great scrap with Gizmo almost the whole race. Each of us in turn making a small mistake to let the other through but neither of us quick enough to make a break. Then I got a bit of oversteer on to the start finish straight and my nudge in the wall gave me a puncture. Damn that was a long lap. Cost me a lot of places too as Gizmo and others seemed to pay trips to the pits to server stop and goes.

Qual was close but once the lights went green Backo started to pull away chased by the G2 porker. That left me and Baracus to scrap over 3rd and I really enjoyed it. Sorry if I was a bit erratic but that 360 is hard to get used to, very twitchy is an understatement! I had several offs and eventually went off at Bassa on the final lap which gave me a stop/go that I couldn't take because I got the chequered flag.... oh yeah and a dq. The results show me in 3rd for some reason even though I was 2nd at the time, but it should be Baracus and then teamie Paul968 (in the GTC porker!)

Nice racing out there and really looking forward to S6 ;D

Possibly the best race Ive ever had.
Made a poor start at the being and lost 3 places,and ended up behind Felipe.
Christ he's quick in that Morgan.
Anyway,got past him due to a mistake on his behalf.
Then i had Dave next,i think someone has been practicing i there defencive driving.
Because i couldn't get past him.all i could do was pressurise him.
Then his mistake came when you hit the left and right hander,where the sun blinds you,and he ran wide.
took a couple of laps to catch up to Darren,but he gave me an adrenaline rush of a life time.
I couldn't get past him.
I was clearly faster,but he stopped every attempt i made to get past.
I finally got past him at the second but last turn but took his place back in the final chicane.
nice racing mate.
I received 3 cautions while behind him,due to avoiding his rear end and got black flagged 3 laps from the end.
i had 1.40 on the clock when i came to the last chicane and thought i could squeeze off another lap as i was having to much fun to do a stop and go,but got disqualified as i crossed the line.
Oh well,it was a fun race after all.

I have to agree John, it was a great race and I have you to thank for it.

I managed to qualify in 10th but was soon up to 8th place with John welded to my back bumper.  For some reason I just couldn't match my pace in qualifying and I guess the sun didn't help either.  Every lap I misjudged my braking point on that corner.

However, who wants to be fast and race alone when you can be slow and have a fantastic battle with a faster driver.  I hope I didn't over step the mark with my defensive driving.  I just tried to hold my ground and always keep the inside line.

Under such pressure I was always going to give you one chance to get past, and you did with a great move.  :thumbup1:   But I think you was so happy at this point that you forgot to close the door at the last chicane, allowing me to retake my position. ;)

It's a shame you received a DQ, because it was heading for a grandstand finish...

Let's hope we can continue this battle in S6.  :thumbup2:

I hope we do continue to race like that in S6.
Who needs to go for a win,when ive experianced racing like tonight.
It can only make us better.
As for your deffensive driving,i hated it,but must admit,it was superb.
Cant wait for S6.
See you all then

Great fun tonight, battling with TT, Mo, Paul R & Mark M. Had a fun little joust with TT early on (we must stop meeting at piratella!), and then tried hard to hang on to Mo but to no avail. Paul R then did a sterling job playing rear gunner for much of the race, until I succumbed to the ridiculous sun and went wide at the 2nd chicane. Paul kindly returned the favour later on, but Mark put a nice pass on me at Rivatza before he too made a mistake and gave the place back. Backo's stop/gos gave me another place and I finished a surprising 4th (or even 3rd if Mo got a DQ). Sorry to TT, who may have spun after I had a bit of a wobble at the top chicane, although that is just the way it goes at Imola - following another car closely into the top chicane is very risky for exactly that reason (not criticising btw m8 - I had the same dilemma more than once and took the same risk).

I have some sympathy for Mark's comments on the 360 Modena. I found it very hard to get a good laptime in it , although some of that was because it is very stiff and doesn't like the top chicane. This was the first quickish track that we have tested on, whereas on the tighter ones it was more in it's element. I think it could easily have some ballast taken off to make it more competitive. I don't think the RS is too heavy though, or too light (I was quicker in the Mosler in the sprint last season). Good to hear that the 350Z is better with the new tyres - otherwise I think it was well out of touch.

That was my worst performance is a hell of a long time and all entirely my own doing :(

Had a bit of a mix up with Reign Man, I'm pretty sure there was no contact but apologies if we did come together.

I'd had enough when I got my second stop & go I'm afraid. I was all over the place and my concentration was shot so I decided that I was becoming a liability as the leaders came up to lap me.

A night to forget.

The Ferrari 360 is, in my experience and opinion, one of the hardest cars to set-up. After a season running the GTC last season, I found a good setup not long into it and it made such a difference to both the feel of the car and the pace I was able to run. Up till that point I was really struggling even in the GTC, so I suspect there is a lot to be found in a decent setup for the Modena.

Personally I would take my GTC setup to the Modena and see if it just works. They should be pretty darn similar so I would expect to pretty much use like for like setups.

Mark - i was in the GT2 RSR...i am just not very quick!, so i think you may need to compare the 360 you drove with the RSR i drove, rather than the RS...(Not to sure of the performance differences between the two with the ballasts now though).

I drove the Modena @ Sugo the other night, and seemed slow, but i had never driven @ Sugo before in GTR2, and was lacking a decent set up also.

Good race anyway last night with Mark & Pseudo, i just didn't really have a great set up - the car hated the chicanes, and i was not to fully confident with braking points and exit speed, although i did a bit better than in my last outing here at Imola.
Good race and good driving by all (except me when i clipped the Lotus Elise driver when overtaking on the 1st turn - sorry about that).

It does look a bit odd that the 360 gtc is 30kgs lighter than the RSR but the Modena is only 5 kgs lighter than the RS. I'm sure you are right Simon about setup being important, but I'd be surprised if it made the difference all on it's own.

Yes I agree about the weight.

30kg should be well within the range of what the succes ballasts will adjust for.

well yeah that was my point earlier Simon and Paul. I can run 49's and 50's in the 360GTC here using a CeeJay setup i have that works well for me here. I used that same setup for the Modena but the car was hopelessly slow over a lap...ie 5 seconds a lap slower in race trim ! That cannot be right. All tyre temps were good and wear was minimal so i know the setup was working well enough.
However i am not a regular Fezza pilot hence asking if some others who took the 360GTC last night could try out the Modena and see whether they agree its now too slow.

I conducted an offline test race using UKGTR only GTC class cars with AI at 120% over a 40minute race at Imola. A Nissan won the race by nearly 6 minutes ! :o followed by a couple of TVR's and Morgans. The highest finishing Modena was 9th with a few others down in midfield. Mosler was fastest over a qually session but the Nissan had fastest race laps. RS's were mainly 14th to 19th with about 1 in the top 10.
If we've upset the natural racing balance of the real cars by this much we might as well go arcade racing.  :(
I want close racing like the rest of you but not at the cost of artificial performance to make slow cars fast and fast cars slow. I just hope it all pans out okay in the championship or there will be mud slinging.
I'm not having a rant, i just want to know that we've gone in the right direction with all this tweaking.

There's something flawed in the way GTR2's AI run races - the Nissan always wins time accelerated 40 minute races for some reason - something to do with it not pitting right near the end I think. The only useful testing with the AI is single lap performance and that has to be done in a very controlled way, ie. with a lot of duplicate cars and all models using the same AI driver.

Don't forget that the Modena can run on different tyres too which affects performance in different ways. I think there are Pirelli and Dunlop versions and there might also be a Michelin but I can't think of one.

I always prefer Dunlop to Pirelli in GTR1 because Pirellis overheat and give great one lap grip but not great over a race distance. Dunlops are nice and steady and don't wear much. Not sure if those characteristics were carried over to GTR2 or not.

Yes, although that is meant to compensate for drivers, not cars.


I wouldn't read much into the pace of the AI. We know from experience what the real relative levels of performance are, and they don't tally with the AI at all.


I don't think the natural balance has been completely upset at all, quite the opposite in fact. The RS is still competitive as my times last night show, I know the Mosler is from last season and the Nissan looks more on the pace. You may however have highlighted one car which is perhaps disadvantaged more than it needs to be. It would be a shame not to take notice of the test races to fine tune the numbers.

True, but with the car change penalty there'll inevitably be a bit of implicit car equalisation too if it's required.


Thing is, Paul, it takes a lot of time and effort to create a new pack, upload it to various places, have everyone download it, do a test race... and then decide the numbers aren't right after all. We'll see over the course of the season whether the next pack needs some more small adjustments much better than we will from a single test race, and the success ballast will stop one car (be it the 360 GTC or another) running away with things if it's a little light.

Ultimately it would be great if we could get to a point where we don't need to ballast the cars in the pack and could instead do it using GTR2 Manager, then we could adjust things more dynamically. But even if that happens it's a fair way off yet.

Well i noticed after the race that i had chosen a model with Yokohoma tyres. Any idea how they perform against the other tyre choices?
I tried a Pirelli shod car after the race but didnt notice any major difference, though by then i was a bit tired out.

I understand that it's all extra effort, but the numbers chosen initially were a complete guess. One of the main ideas of the test races was to check that the values were right - you said as in the Oshers B thread:


I've put a fair amount of time in to evaluate the effects of the ballast on the cars, and this is probably the only car I can see which looks wrong. I'm disappointed if this effort was a waste of time.  Not tweaking the Modena is likely to rule it out as a reasonable choice this season IMO - perhaps that is a price you are prepared to pay though.

Although i need to 'head to head' test it at a couple of other tracks first, i unfortunately also thought the same after trying it out last night. I was intending to run it for the GTC endurance champ as a complete change of scene for me, but am now re-considering once more.

Not sure I've ever used the Yokos in the game. If they are anything like the road tyres Yoko make then they will be soft as kippers and wear very quickly but provide a lot of grip whilst they do without being on a knife edge like Pirellis tend to be.

If it's out by 20kg or less it'll be evened out with the success ballast after 1 or 2 rounds at most. That's hardly going to "rule it out"! There was next to no discussion of the ballast values after Sugo - I had made it clear that we were going to be doing stuff very quickly in order to kick the season off by September 2nd.

but to be fair Dave, we could only evaluate the car we drove on that night at Sugo (in my case the 360GTC). There should really have been a few test races with different classes to properly see how they performed. Not poo-pooing your hard work, its just that as in all things in life, you have to see if the reality matches the theory, especially in competition.
Its no good if we dive straight into a championship and find somethings horribly wrong or a car has to be discounted, when the whole idea was to make car choice more widespread.

How do i change the tyre selection for my own skinned car?
I ran with Dunlops last night, but if i wanted to change to say Pirelli's, how can i do this?
Or is the tyre selection locked when i submitted the skin for the pack, and no further changes can be made?

Stop over dramatizing things by using emotive language like "horribly wrong" - it can't be more than 15-20kg out and the gap between it and the RS is unchanged since the last two versions of the pack. This is not like the 993 GT2 going into GT2 as per Season 4!

It's too late now - I must say I was surprised when I noticed that you'd skinned a Dunlop-shod car whilst checking the results but at least you won't be getting any success ballast. ;) :laugh: :angel:

Well you've managed to change the negative to positive there Dave i'll give you that  :D.

I'll keep this in mind for next time  ::)

err, i'd say a Nissan going faster than a Ferrari is 'horribly wrong'  :laugh:

Sounds eminently normal to me. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Yep some Renaults are faster than some Fiats  ;)

Mark for info the Yoko tyre is actually a Dublop - there is no Yoko tyre model in GTR1 or 2, it simply calls the Dunlop model.
Anyway the difference in pace is not that much between the Dunlop and the Pirelli on the 360, but the Pirelli is more consistant over a longer run. If I remember correctly the Dunlops need about 5 clicks more camber to get it to operate correctly, so you should notice an improvement if you tweak you set a bit.. They run at the same pressure and temp though.
You can find the tyre and camber info in the GTR drivers/engineers handbook which was posted a while back .... cant find it now I'm afraid.
hth :)

I did as Simon suggested and tried a different setup (one of CJs in the online files section) and it did help quite a bit. In TT mode I managed a 1.50.2, which is pretty similar to my RS and Mosler pace. The Modena is definitely more edgy though and harder to drive. If it gets away from you then it is much harder to bring back, where the RS would just need a flick of opposite lock and a bootfull to gather things up.

Yep, that sounds like the Fezza! It requires precision driving which is my kind of driving. 8)

To be really quick though you need to be precise in either car (or any of the others really). The difference is that when you get it wrong, the 360 bites rather quickly where the Porker just slaps your wrist and tells you not to do it again  :)

.... unfortunately not really my driving style, I suppose I've been spoilt driving the porker for so long. Driving the 360 for the first time last night I lost it on numerous ocasions where it would have been easily recoverable in the GT3. Needs a change of approach I think and I also agree that setup has alot to do with it. The back of the 360 seems to stiff to me but I'm wary of trying to turn it into a porker so I'll have to try and adapt my technique.
Engine sounds great at 9k rpm though 8)

Not my style either - I seem to have fallen into the "chuck it in and wrestle it out" method which is fun but not too quick. :-\ ;D

Sorry, I think that may have been me.  I moved left before last chicane and I think it was the leader overtook but braked early because another car was in front.  This caught me out I locked up and tried to go behind you but I just clipped you as I went straight on.

Bill

Just out of interest, in a proper league race, if someone was DQ'ed for not doing a stop/go on the last lap, would anyone know?

In theory you can spot them in the results export by looking for 3 'missing' laps (it doesn't log the lap if there's a cut) in conjunction with a DQ.

I doubt that anybody would look unless prompted but presumably if it happened to somebody they would speak up. I've a feeling this has happened before but I can't remember when or what we did about it.

Thanks for the tyre info Mo  8) Why did they put Yokos in there then?  ??? One of the GT3's runs yokos as well.
Has anyone got a link to that tyre/camber handbook?

Precision driving for the Modena huh...maybe i'll stick with my trusty Porsche  ;)  When i tried the modena out at Valencia it was spin city under braking but was using suspect pedals as...

My Speed 7 pedals just went kaput too...fantastic timing with S6 starting sunday  :'(  They are sending me a new electronics board out but be amazed if it arrives before end of next week. Will have to try and use my flimsy old DFP pedals. Feels like driving a Trabant after using a Porsche for a year  ::)

I thought the general approach was to have the inside about 5 degrees c above the outside and the middle between those two but nearer the inside, i.e. adjust camber and pressure to get those values.  Different driving styles may mean you have to change your settings from a handbook's anyway.

yeah know all that bit John, but there was a table (i think) that had recommended cambers etc for certain tyre brands.

Dave,

just out of curiosity: shouldn't a driver who is disqualified put back down the grid? Or is there another rule in force?

Thanks.
 

The system doesn't treat DQs specially because they aren't normally an issue in a league race. They're just handled like any other retirement.