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UKGPL Season 16 - Novices and Amateurs - Race 9 - 65 mod - Zandvoort(1967)

Natan had a good result with the Lotus at Brands, and he will be difficult to catch.  However Zandvoort doesn't favour his Lotus and the championship may not be decided until Monza, if his main rivals are able to race this time out. 

I'll allow Sam to return to the Novices for the Monza race, should his lead be under threat, so that the Novices championship can be decided on the track.  If there are drivers waiting for a new season to make their debuts, you're encouraged to test the format in the later stages of this season, in order to be ready for the new one.

There has been another request for improved aero for the 65s- the RSC thread is here:  http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=329607 (http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=329607)
While some consider the 66 tow excessive, the slower top speeds of the 65s would reduce this problem to a large extent.  Also, the current 65 model isn't that of the original cars as it was impossible to make it work- the crude solution was to increase top speeds 5%.  The 65s with tow might be fantastic racing- and of course the existing 65s would still be an option.

Please be in IGOR UKGPL chatroom by 8:40 p.m. (You will need to set up a channel called #ukgpl if you haven't already done so)
Igor and Race passwords: see above (#post_event_password)

Server ukgpl4
IP address  90.242.82.78

Race date = 20-1-2009
Time = 20:45
Track =  Zandvoort(1967)
Variant = 65F1
Damage Model = Int
Qually time = 30 minutes.
Race length = Long (27 laps)

Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=193&theme=6)

65 Mod

These were the 65 drivers
BT7 Bonnier, Baghetti, Hulme (Bonnier drove for Walker)
BT11 Brabham Gurney Gardner Anderson Siffert (Siffert drove for Walker, Gardner and Anderson were privateers)
Lotus Clark Spence Rodriguez Mitter Russo Solana (and Maggs Hailwood Attwood Amon and Ireland for Parnell)
Ferrari Surtees Bandini Rodriguez Vaccarella Bondurant Scarfiotti
Honda Ginther Bucknum
Cooper McLaren Rindt
BRM Hill Stewart

The 1965 season was the last to use the controversial 1500cc formula which had begun after 1960, to the initial advantage of Ferrari.  The 1965 cars are smaller than the 1967 cars and have less torque and hence more grip.  It was claimed that they 'cornered on rails', however this allowed the Grand Prix series to retain the use of circuits which were otherwise to prove extremely dangerous.

The 1965 cars are ideal for those new to GPL as they allow the tracks to be learnt in light reliable cars, however these are also full Formula One cars, and quite fast.... Graham Hill got pole in his P261 in 1965 with a time of 1'30.7.  Jim Clark won the race in a Lotus 33 with a fastest lap of 1'30.6. 

David Wright's 'Legends' site http://fp.gplegends.plus.com/ has the download of the most recent 2.0.1 version (under 'details') as well as being an exceptional guide to both 1965 and 1967, for those interested in Formula One history.

Unfortunately the current 65 mod download does not have default setups.  Default setups for all the cars and tracks that are likely to be used can be downloaded from http://www.neurology-crew.com/gplserver under '65 setups'.  Note that you will have to add enough fuel for the race, whether short or long!

At least I know Zandvort works on my pc!  ::)

Does Zandvoort normally come with no pitwall, cos I can't remember...

Also, I reckon the SRou 65s lap record might go too. :D

Yes.

Hm, I got a pretty okay setup from somewhere, don't remember where or who, it's called Ferrari65_Club_Zandvort.fe1. Maybe it's Nicky Ickx who's made it? Anyway, except fro the gearing, which I've adjusted a little on first, second and fifth gear, it works fine. There's only one problem. The left front tyre get's really hot. I'm not sure what to do about it. something need to be softened, I guess, but what? Tyres? Dampers? Springs? Anti roll bar?

Thanks to Dave's 65 season and a bit of pracy on the VosServer last night I now have a complete BT7 GPL65v2 Rank of +68.763, 94th in the world and not a green square in sight.

But I quite like the BT7 at Zandvoort.

Thanks Dave.

@ Åsbjeurn , those setup ya mentioned isn’t made by me. mine could be found here http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?p=3955727#post3955727

based on PJ which is labeld to be good enough for 12730  :o
I am 2 sec behind , lol.

would be  nice to compare with your setup , as mine serves overheated rear left tyre.

You're probably braking too late and deep into corners instead of focusing on early acceleration which is where the gain in laptime comes from. Generally I always run softer front arb for 65s and much softer front spring compared to rear. Dampers are down to personal preference, depending on how you want it to behave it during transitions (i.e. braking,acceleration). Attachment of files is turned off here, otherwise I'd post some setups I got. They pretty much work from car to car without many changes, except gears.

What Hristo said. When I first drove these cars, I couldn't believe not only how late I could brake, but how early I could floor / modulate the throttle to get out of the corner. Use it to your advantage, don't just rely on the brakes. Incidentally, I quite like the DB setups, now they're my get-up-and-go setups for each 65 car as I'm learning them.

Oh, and I may have lowered my PB by 3 tenths. :whistling:

It's hard to change my driving style now, at my age and after so many years of GPL'ing. Maybe I should see what softening up the springs and/or bars could do before I try the other option. Softening the dampers may make the chassis less controlable, or what?

The bump in damper controls the rate of compression of the spring, while the rebound controls the rate of decompression of the spring. So:

Softer front bump would give the frontend more grip under deceleration, softer rear bump would give the rearend more grip under acceleration. In other words it wouldn't resist much under compression, i.e. it goes up easier.

Softer front rebound would give the frontend more grip under acceleration, softer rear rebound would give the rearend more grip under deceleration. In other words it wouldn't resist much under decompression, so the wheel can keep contact with the surface when it becomes unloaded, i.e. it "pushes" back down easier.

There's a thing called critical damping though, it's the threshold beyond which the damper is so soft (or so stiff) that it absorbs too slowly (or too quickly) that you end up driving just on the springs (or as if you had none), so in general don't use the max. and min. values (5 or 1), unless anything else doesn't work.

Of course you have to consider bumps, dips, kerbs, etc., which usually limit you to how you want the dampers set up.

For 65s I tend to use 2/2 front bump/rebound and 2/3 or 3/3 rear bump/rebound with 114-131 N/mm front spring and 184-201 N/mm rear spring. Front ARB usually at 263 N/mm, rear at 280 N/mm. Cambers and pressures to get equal temperature accross the thread. The rest is down to personal preference.

As Jethro said brake less deep, trail brake to make the car turn on entry, accelerate earlier and harder, turning as little as possible.

No

I've never seen one.  Expect Phil is talking about the pit stalls and TM is asking about the equivalent of the Kyalami Armco pit wall that separates the track from the pits.  Zandvoort doesn't have the latter.

Come to think of it, if you are far enough back in the pits you only get straw bales on the right as well.

I am talking about the armco a la Kyalami, since I'd rather not do an "Asbjeurn" and get DSQ'd when making a pit stop in the D1 race, or taking a Stop'n'Go in the Amateurs.

It is easier said than done though.  I think that I fall into the "too deep into the corner brigade".

I have just looked at my best effort at Zandvoort in the BT7 compared with Steve Cloyd's lap.  That annoying alien thing of his being able to come OFF the brakes so much earlier and "slither" into the corner was evident, particularly at T1.

He comes off the brakes early and takes a tight line in for an early apex.  He does his "turning" later in the corner and is then clear to boot the thing out.  My turning is earlier in the corner so whilst I accelerate earlier I can't give it full "wellie" as I am still having to negotiate the second half of the corner.

Well it's given me something to try over the next few days anyway.

Going from 67s to 65s means you can automatically brake much later at most braking points, but it's not easier said than done. All you have to do is not brake as late. ;)

LOL a double negative here.  I was replying yes to your question "Zandvoort does NOT have a pit wall".  So just to clarify, there is no pit wall at Zanty.  Sorry for the confusion LOL.

Appreciate the clear-up Phil. :D

How late and how hard I brake affects my rhythm. If I should start my braking earlier, that means I'd need to brake a little softer and over a longer stretch before I release the brake and start accelerating. Else I probably will step on the accelerator too early and need to adjust through the turn and get a bad exit, or I will need to wait too long before I step on the throttle and thus lose too much speed. Another option is that I brake too soft, and get a bad entry and need to recover before I can start getting out of the turn.

Either way, I need to learn two things at the same time, braking earlier, and braking a little softer, but not too soft. That can be a tough task for a driver closing in on 40.

Hm, my setup says 2/2 front and 1/3 rear on dampers. The springs are pretty soft, 88 N/cm front and 114 rear. The ARB's are set to 158 up front, and 105 at the rear. Everything is pretty soft compared to your "standar" settings. The tyres are perhaps a bit hard, though, 145 kPa both fore and aft. I'm not sure though, 'cause I haven't taken much notice of those numbers in the 65's, only remember that in the 67's I usually lay around 130 kPa. If the tyres are soft too, I'd might as well turn to Jethro's solution.

You're running way too soft imo. try a 2/3 for rear bump/rebound and at least equal arb front and rear. And generally stiffer, especially ARB at least above 200. As for tyres I run 145-159 kPa for 65s, depending on track. The optimal temperature seems to be around 100 degrees, so even with such high pressure most of the time you'd barely reach that.

Hah!  Bloody youngsters!

Youth is wasted on the young.  :P

So...brake later and on throttle earlier then! Easy!

If only........!

Having practiced and practiced...and then practiced a bit more, I have managed to hustle my BT7 to a 1:28.8, which I am right chuffed about. ;D  The car is a dream to drive and I've found a groove that lets me actually enjoy Zandvoort for the first time ever, lap after lap.



But now I find that I have to drive to Scotland tomorrow, on business, so won't be able to do the race.

Bugger it!

Pathetic excuse. ;) Take yer wheel, hope the hotel has Wi-Fi and make the race!

Clive, forget your woes , while yoour up there go for a drive up the A38 . Gaurentee you will forget all about GPL for the duration  ;D

Blimey, hope he goes in the right direction!! cos' that same A38 comes right through the centre of Bristol!!!!...could be a long drive ::)...
and anyway what a cop out..   

 "I can do 1:28's around Zandy and will wup yer asses"
 oops! forgot I can't make the race I HAVE TO GO AWAY ON BUSINESS!!??... how jolly (in)convenient :yes: :yes: :no: :no:

But wouldn't this make the tyres heat up even more? I tried letting some air out of the wheels, to 131 kPa, and also tried breaking a bit earlier and softer. It seemed like the tyretemps got under control all around. I considered setting the rear dampers to 2/3 instead of 1/3, but was afraid that the tail would be a bit too twitchy. But on afterthought, I don't think that it would be beyond controlable. I got a setup from Geoff, that I will try out tonight. We'll see how that will feel.

You worry too much about tyre temps Asjbeurn. :laugh: Bolt on a DB setup without changing it, then work from there.

 :P :P :P :P :P :P

LOL

Just started snowing in Preston.  Maybe my trip will be cancelled.  :yes: :yes: :yes:

Line is so incredibly important through the Hondenvlak-Tunnel Oost-Panoramabocht section! (Or what we in NGPLS used to call Himself Valley, after one of the members, who had a few manouvers when he spun and took out others, like race leaders and such...) If I get the line right, I can keep full throttle through the whole valley, if I don't, I need to lift on the throttle, or the car will lift going over the hills and far away. :(

suprising what one little digit can do to ruin well planned motoring trip  ::)

Meant to be the A83 "rest and be thankfull" for those that know it  , though its prolly full of speed calming measures these days just like all the other classic routes  ::)

Been a while since I terrorised the locals up in them there hills  ;D

 

Hristo, if you're gonna be in this race, can you make it a bit more competitive for others by slowing down? :laugh:

Jack

Password hasn't been posted for this race  ;)

It's up- since Clive might be away UKGPL4 might have to be used for the later Amateurs race tonight, and UKGPL5 for the Novices..

OK just let me know what you want me to do in chat ;)

Another stinker from me :) Poor pace in quali and too many offs pretty much put paid to any fun. Typically, I would work like hell to catch gent in front, relax and go off. Not overdriving just not concentrating. Much more fun than Brands though.

Congrats to podium and enjoyed seeing a few of you (until I binned it :)).

Results and Replay here.

http://www.jamesonline.net/ukgpl/2009.01.20_Zandvoort_Novices/

Firstly congrats to winners (in amateurs and novices).
Qually was good (for me) and looked like I was set for a nice bit of racing at the back with Al and Graham.
Sadly Alastairs connection problems put paid to that duel following which I did an over enthusiastic brake at Tarzan on lap 2 which put Graham through.
After that I concentrated on closing Graham but got a screen freeze on lap 11 - fearing I could still be on track took the safe option and ended race via ESC.
A race that promised much but delivered little...

Lol, look who's talking, mr. Pole position and Fastest Lap!

A good, steady race without being spectacular....although the last 5 laps with Clutch and myself trading laptime blows was quite fascinating to watch in replay. Tossing up wether to start in Italy, as it seems I have pejudiced Asbjeurns chances of taking the title from Sam at the last race. I didn't realise that he was numerically close enough to snatch the title if Sam DNF's next race and Asby wins. I was under the impression that Steve alone, was close enough for a tilt. Bad luck today Steve, with that blown engine on lap 5. And a bloody black flag for track cutting?........Absolute rubbish. Can you look into that please Dave, I think it was a false black flag, that on top of the blowup,  cost Steve any chance of a good finish and decent points.

After Clutch ran wide in turn 1 and handed the lead to Asbjeurn on lap 9, Asby wasted no time in gapping the field by quite a substantial margin. But there must have been a cost, as we all came across him facing the wrong way and off the track just on the exit of the hairpin on lap 15. He chased me for a lap as he got himself up to speed again, and as he had been faster than me overall when he came a knockin' again I'd let him by. A lap later he spun at T1 and it was the last I saw of him....he eventually finished some 33 seconds adrift of Clutch. There must have been a few more.....moments.

Two of my Clark-Hill Racing team mates didn't complete, due to a disco in Bartosz's case and a screen freeze in Tim's case, and poor Mike showed the effects of a very busy week and interrupted preparation.
Both Bartosz and Tim worked hard all week to bring the new cars up to scratch, and both were doing very well til their untimely demises. Bartosz in particular was a bit hard to catch early, without stressing the rubber unduly....:) When I first saw Bartosz whilst practicing for Silvy I had to invite him to join UKGPL and ultimately into the team. He's without a doubt a rough diamond, good work there mate. And Tim and Mike's improvement just this season has been astonishing. Both are thinking like racers now, and with every outing they get better and better......bodes well for next season I reckon.....:)

Can't take anything away from Clutch's performance tonight, after his lap 9 bobble his race was pretty much flawless. Even when I piled on the pressure in the last 6 or so laps, he responded with faster, tidy laps of his own. I was forced to drop into the 29's on lap 22 to try and pick him up, but wasted it by nearly blowing it thru Scheivlak on lap 23. I held opposite lock there for what seemed like a age, before the car came back underneath me and I could continue. I just kept my head down trying to produce a mistake from Clutch that might have brought him close enough to attack, to no avail. The margin at the finish was under 2 seconds. A very satisfying race in one respect, manageing to drive a groove that kept some car under me towards the end and 96% of on track laps. Obviously the key to any good performance. The lesson for today chaps is: accept slightly lower lap times, for better consistency and 100% on track laps.....and you WILL be somewhere up near the front at the finish. Don't know where the concentration came from....I'd been awake all night, due to 'night-shift syndrome'.

We need to get Alastairs' connection sorted out too.....his season has been marred by constant discoe's for the latter part of the season. Hate to lose a driver because of a fixable problem.

Great race everyone, no incidents to report as far as I'm aware, and a wonderfully clean L1-T1. Excellent work guys. Grats to Clutch for a cracking race, and Asbjeurn for a fighting 3rd place. Well done all that finished, what has been one of the cleanest and best Novice races this season. Upstairs may be a bit crowded next season, as there are a few lads capable of stepping up. I think there is a need for a mezzanine below the top storey.........:)
Nearly forgot to mention NHance!! Excellent qually for third on the grid.....just to disco as we formed up for the start. Bloody disappointing really, would have added another dimension to an already classy race.
Hang in there mate.

Oh, and thanks greatly to Steve and Dave for agreeing to let us run the new cars.

Geoff.



BTW: I had really bad stutters behind the pits all race, and the odd ones at other places around the track. Could simply be a case of tightwad corporate ISP's skimping on bandwidth to protect their (boo hoo) dwindling profits, or some other reason entirely......:(

Oh dear, that didn't go well, and puts me out of reach of the championship if I'm not mistaken.  

Engine blew, didn't feel I was pushing too hard, have driven much harder than that before and the motor didn't give up.  One of those things.  I pulled off track to allow everyone past and reset, and then hopefully persue the pack down again.  Went to do a S&G and noticed too late to dive into my own pit box that I had a black flag.  I know I could have probably continued and hope the mod may have over ruled GPL to revoke any disqualification but I don't like doing it so decided to dive back in the pits again to see if I could clear the black flag.  The board said cut course! Not sure where that was.  Only thing I can think is when I pulled off track with a blown engine, but I was far from gaining any advantage from that.

All that lead to me being in 10th and way down from anyone.  Pushed on regardless.  You never know.  By virtue of disco's by VV and PZ I recovered to 8th.

Lesson learned, always S&G next to your own pit board, just in case!  I would have needed to only stop once.

Grats to all finishers and the Podium.

P.S. Can we go back to Brands yet ;)

 :) ;D :D
Ickx short race report on his lucky 3rd at Zandy :

Just watch the replay , thx for upload  .

Well , to me qualification worked out good . 0,3sec off my PB but good enough for 5th on grid.
Considering days test results , my goals in order where:
1.   watch the engines temps . don’t blow up
2.   watch both left tyres temps , no wide walks on to the greens
3.   try racing

the race :
as expected EvilClive overtook me at start , so I settled down on 6th.
Bit hunted then by Sam Blood  till he spon. Meanwhile my engine decide to love 121 Celsius, so no way to lay on any sort of aggressive driving style. Man I lift throttle all that gently while shifting…felts more like cruising then racing.lol.
J.W went wide , pitty.
Nothing spectacular till L14 : Tim spins two times dropped him on 6th ,me lifted to 4th.
Ginsters starts to hunt me but lost somewhere at L16.
L19 lapped unlucky pitter B.Darwin.
L20 EvilClive slipstreamed Natan ,second then.
L22 Natan tried to slipstream right side defending EvilClive but touched those exit-pitwall slightly . Thatwhy he chrashed into EvilClive  in front of T1.
Unbelievable  ,both cars survived those heavy chrash without any damage !!! wow.
L22 still ,  Natan slipped twice and I earned 3rd.
L23 Natan did his fastes lap.
L24 Natan`s engine explodes. Luckily in front of the pits entry ,where he pitstoped. Wd !
L25 my so called fastes race lap 1-30-32 .  wooooooooooooow.
Tim starts hunting me , so I prepared myself to eventually  right side defending line on the long straight . like I did noticed EvilClive did with success during test races.
Well but Tim didn’t come that close. Slipped somewhere on  L26 at least.

Couldn’t believe , 3rd in the end. What kinda lucky result   !!!


Congratulations goes to J.Walters and Hristo ; outstanding  !!! class of his own.
As well to Natan , EvilClive and Tim , who have been a class off his own too.
And of course big hand to winners of Novices and to all taken part.


See ya all at Monza for the  last race of this great funny season.
(will modified slipstream be ready for 65mod till then  ? ) that would be nice.

Regards
Nicky Ickx

Zandwoort is one of my favorite tracks, and I was waiting for this race.

On practise I was struggling to make a good clean lap, but finally at the end of session I've cleared my head, and finish second on the grid with 1:30.48  8)

The race started with a bad start witch cost me second place(this Ferrari was very fast ;) ).
At the first few laps i was struggling to find my rhythm. Leaders was running away from me, so I've concentrated on keeping my third place. Steve was pushing me very hard, but he had an engine problems, and now my only thread was Geoff. Luckily He didn't push as hard as He could, so I was able to keep distance between us.
On lap 13 C.Clutch made a mistake and gap between us were just 3 second. Two laps later leader Asbjeurn Tverberg spin on Hugenholtzbocht(just love the name ;) ), and I was second 8).
Unfortunately half lap later I have a disco, and that was the end of the story  :'(


Thanks mate. Hope to perform better for the team at Monza :)

Enjoyed this one obviously.. my first win. Was it easy.. No it wasn't! There were guys out there faster than me who could have also taken victory, so there was a fair bit of luck in my win.
Qualified with an unexpected pole and was first into turn 1. had a smile on my face as i saw Asbjeurn had done one of his usual lightning starts to jump from 5th? to 2nd by turn 1. After our coming together at Brands Hatch (which was my fault - many apologies) i knew i had to be extra careful. I could hear his Ferrari breathing down my neck for the first few laps and was going cross-eyed watching him in my mirrors but eventually gapped him by a couple of seconds.
On Lap 8 (i think) i missed a gear shift at the end of the main straight, lost the back end and ran wide whilst grabbing a gearbox full of neutrals (Bit like Hakkinen at the Monza Chicane in 1999. Couldn't find any trees to cry under though). Asbjeurn got past, and after i had another spin due to trying to push he gapped me by quite a few seconds and i couldn't catch him.
A few laps later saw some yellow flags and a Ferrari facing the wrong way at the hairpin and i regained the lead. I knew he easiliy had the pace to catch me so kept my head down and concentrated. Asbjeurn must have lost his Rhythm a bit as he seemed to drop back and Geoff passed him.
I had quite a margin to Geoff so thought i'd ignore Pribluba and take the last 10+ laps nice and steady, enjoy the scenery..etc.
Unfortunately, Geoff decided to ruin my pleasant drive by punching in some very quick laps and before i knew it i was getting loose trying to match his times and begging the lap chart to get to zero as he closed right in.
I could pretend i was pacing myself and letting him catch me so i wasn't putting too much stress on the car, but the truth is, 2 more laps and he would have been on me and it could have been anyone's race.

Well done to all, even NHance who came out of nowhere with a 3rd place on the grid only to have an internet connection problem or something and couldn't do the race.
Next race Monza where i expect my BT11 will struggle.. with me driving it that is!

Well done, Clutch and Geoff, and well deserved podium to you two! I feel bad for Steve and Bartosz who would have beaten me if it wasn't for their technical problems.

At the qually I wasn't up to my best. I set a time that put me on second for a while, but soon was surpassed by Clutch, Bartosz, NHance and Steve. I wasn't able to take back the position, although I tried very hard - too hard. I messed up almost every lap, and only managed to get .08 seconds behind Steve on the last lap. Clutch on first, Bartosz on second, NHance on third, Steve on fourth, and then me.

NHance got a disco just before the start, which left a wide open space between me and Clutch and I could really pull away at the start and took the second position into T1. The first few laps I managed to follow Clutch, but still wasn't able to close in on him. With a few bad turns, the gap soon opened from 1 second to 2 or 3 seconds, and there was no way I could close it. Clutch was too fast, so I just had to settle in for second, and hope for Clutch to make a mistake. The gap back to Bartosz on third was increasing, so I figured I just had to keep steady laps, and the second place would be mine.

Then I saw in the distance that Clutch missed the braking into T1, and he didn't regain control before I was past. I kept my pace without trying to pull away. It was more important to stay on track and get as many points as possible, than taking chances on fighting for the win, so I figured that if Clutch caught me, I wouldn't fight too hard for my position, but you never know what happens when the fight is on...

Strangely enough the gap increased, and I started hoping for a win, but of course I messed it up in the hairpin and Clutch got past before I could start driving in the right direction. Damn 65 cars don't have enough power to spin around, so I had to take a three-point turn, which cost me a lot of time. Another mistake, and Bartosz and Geoff passed me. I was pretty soon up on Geoff's tail, and noticed that Bartosz in front of him again warped all over the place. I thought that Steve, who I had lapped when I still was in second place, had tried to pass Bartosz and crashed because of a warp, but that wasn't the case. Anyway, Bartosz suddenly was gone, and I was just wating for him to reappear somewhere right in front of either me or Geoff. Luckily that didn't happen, 'cause he was gone for ever.

After that I messed it up again, this time in the exit of Tarzanbocht, and Geoff disappeard in the distance. Now all I could do was concentrating on keeping the cars behind as far behind as possible. I did my best not to let that happen though, and had four or five really bad laps before I pulled myself together for the last laps,  and hauled in the last podium place.