SimRacing.org.uk

UKGPL Season 16 - Novices and Amateurs - Race 10 - 65 mod - Monza (GP 1955-71)

Tim and Natan will fight it out for the Amateurs championship, Honda versus Lotus, in the last race under the current format.  Storm has a slight mathematical chance should he return.  The races have been close this season, despite problems caused by splitting into two divisions.  Next season I expect the Amateurs to move to pro races at 50% distance, with adjusted allocations.  Pro level should be slightly easier to moderate though there have been few incidents this season.

Asbjeurn has a slight chance of winning the Novices title, so Sam may choose to enter the Novices race at Monza.   

There is the prospect of further refinements to the 65 mod, though if there is to be added slipstream I would prefer that the original top speeds be made accurate- the RSC thread is here:  http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=329607 (http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=329607)
While some consider the 66 tow excessive, the slower top speeds of the 65s would reduce this problem to a large extent.  Also, the current 65 model isn't that of the original cars as it was impossible to make it work- the crude solution was to increase top speeds 5%.  The 65s with tow might be fantastic racing- and of course the existing 65s would still be an option.

Please be in IGOR UKGPL chatroom by 8:40 p.m. (You will need to set up a channel called #ukgpl if you haven't already done so)
Igor and Race passwords: see above (#post_event_password)

Server ukgpl4
IP address  90.242.82.78

Race date = 3-2-2009
Time = 20:45
Track =  Monza (GP 1955-71)
Variant = 65F1
Damage Model = Int
Qually time = 30 minutes.
Race length = Long (21 laps)

Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=193&theme=6)

65 Mod

These were the 65 drivers
BT7 Bonnier, Baghetti, Hulme (Bonnier drove for Walker)
BT11 Brabham Gurney Gardner Anderson Siffert (Siffert drove for Walker, Gardner and Anderson were privateers)
Lotus Clark Spence Rodriguez Mitter Russo Solana (and Maggs Hailwood Attwood Amon and Ireland for Parnell)
Ferrari Surtees Bandini Rodriguez Vaccarella Bondurant Scarfiotti
Honda Ginther Bucknum
Cooper McLaren Rindt
BRM Hill Stewart

The 1965 season was the last to use the controversial 1500cc formula which had begun after 1960, to the initial advantage of Ferrari.  The 1965 cars are smaller than the 1967 cars and have less torque and hence more grip.  It was claimed that they 'cornered on rails', however this allowed the Grand Prix series to retain the use of circuits which were otherwise to prove extremely dangerous.

The 1965 cars are ideal for those new to GPL as they allow the tracks to be learnt in light reliable cars, however these are also full Formula One cars, and quite fast.... Graham Hill got pole in his P261 in 1965 with a time of 1'30.7.  Jim Clark won the race in a Lotus 33 with a fastest lap of 1'30.6. 

David Wright's 'Legends' site http://fp.gplegends.plus.com/ has the download of the most recent 2.0.1 version (under 'details') as well as being an exceptional guide to both 1965 and 1967, for those interested in Formula One history.

Unfortunately the current 65 mod download does not have default setups.  Default setups for all the cars and tracks that are likely to be used can be downloaded from http://www.neurology-crew.com/gplserver under '65 setups'.  Note that you will have to add enough fuel for the race, whether short or long!

I should be returning for this one. Got caught up in hour after hour of practice for a 24 hour sim race I did last weekend (which was an experience let me tell you!)

Haven't got time to practicing for this one. Have been caught up the last evenings with trying to save data from a hard disk that crashed. Luckily i succeeded on saturday, so now I can concentrate on practicing for tomorrow's race. Monza is a fairly simple track to learn, and I had a go at it a few weeks ago with some of the UKGPL'ers, so it shouldn't be too hard to get up to speed on it. Sam, will you be defending your position?

I'm undecided. Yes, it would be nice to win the Novices but I would also like to race with the Amatures. Guess i'll have think of something to stop you winning Asbjeurn  ;D.

After plenty of practice, it looks like I wont make it.  Good job I was out of it after Zandy anyway.

If I turn up what should I drive?

Nothing faster than a BT7   ;D

Or I shall cry.  :'(


We have enough bandits in fast cars as it is.  :P

well i'll be giving this race a miss like i did last one ... hopefully you will soon be playing with the updated 65's .

john

A BT7 please Ken, otherwise Clive will shed tears as only a Soggie could manage.

Good to have you return Storm- we're still short for the interleague on Sunday, you could consider that as well?

Thanks for the update on the 65s John.  RSC is offline, but from Paul's post there it seemed that you haven't made any changes to the existing cars.  It seems odd to retain the extra top speeds when you've added slipstream, just for the sake of one of the less popular ranks.  Is there a code issue with the top speeds, as it wouldn't seem to require more testing to fix them?

There you go, dangling that carrot again.....Mmmm, can't wait.....<excited fidgeting>......: ;D

Dangling carrots like that infront of me can only end in bitten fingers!  ;D
Glad to have you back Storm - Although it's terrible timing as I need this one won :angel:, and you tend to get infront of me and stay there!  :hammer:

Enjoyed quali and being swallowed up at start was exciting then it went down hill. After beginning to fight back, think I got clattered by someone rejoining from outside of Lesmos when i was at apex, not very good to be honest :'( Must have been lag or something but enough fun for one night.

Hopefully have more luck and time to pracci my starts before next season.

 

Qualifying went well, I was aiming for 36s but could not for the life of me get there, so sat second to Tim in the Honda. Bogged down at the start and lost a few places, and spent the whole race playing catchup before settling into a rhythm and putting consistent laps in to reel the gap. I got it down to about 1.8 seconds, then I got punted upside down into Parabolica whilst trying to lap somebody (haven't seen the replay, but I'll do that before I name names), reset the car, then tried to get back into that rhythm. Dunno if I'll have a penalty applied, but if I do I won't complain much. 2nd after that seems alright, though I have mixed feelings cos I wanted that win so bad! :D

Congrats to Tim for the win, Will for 3rd, and everybody else who finished. :)

Novices reults and replay here.

http://www.jamesonline.net/ukgpl/2009.02.03_Monza_Novices/

Monza - quite an easy track to learn for GPL (great to watch on the telly, atmosphrere..etc).
However, becuase it is quite simple in layout with only a few breaking points, it does promote close racing and i love it. Its good to race a variety of track types.
I finished 5th in the novices, but enjoyed it a great deal.
Followed Stemmler for a few laps until Grande Curva where he slowed a lot to avoid A.Tverberg who must have hit the barriers or something, i tried to aim for a gap as i couldn't slow enough and wasn't sure where he or Tverberg were going, but unfortunately i hit him - apologies. After building up Speed again i made it through Lesmos 1 & 2 and let Stemmler through as i had made the position up by hitting him.
Tverberg caught me after i made a slight error at Lesmos 1 a couple of laps later and we had a great side my side battle for the next lap.
After that i stayed within a couple of seconds of Tverberg and Stemmler but after pushing, spun it a couple of laps from the end to finish a distant 5th.
Great fun though, and the good thing about Monza is you can often see the next position ahead so it gives you even more motivation to push.

Great Fun

Congratulations to Tim on a great win both in the race and the championship!

This season was my first foray into GPL racing online and I loved it. Came in with no expectations but heartily chuffed to bag the win at Silverstone.

Definitely coming back for more and will try to find time for a bit more practice next season.

Thanks to all the other racers and especially the admins for doing such a great job - without the admins devoting so much free time we'd all be racing offline - never forget it!

Firstly, congrats to the Amateurs and Novices champions and all winners and finishers.
Qually wasn't my PB but happy enough. Race was going ok until the engine blew 3 laps in, hence a Shift/R and stop n go. After that it was a case of consistency. Ended up 6th (think my best result), mostly through others misfortunes but guess that's racing...
 
In summary of my first season -
I have to admit that, after I had a very shaky start at Mosport back in September, I almost hung up the wheel. Glad you guys talked me out of it, although with hindsight I did start racing online too soon.
Anyway, I'm pleased with my progress. Started from scratch five months ago and have now got to the stage where I sometimes actually do some racing, even if it is at the back  ;). I have had the honor of being made a Moderator and especially pleased Geoff, Mike and Bartosz felt I was progressing enough to join the Clark-Hill team - I'll do my best to repay your faith lads...
GPL is a steep learning curve but once you're past the initial hurdles it pulls you in - you fast guys seem light years away, but I guess the only way is up  :wacko:
So - I've enjoyed it, great bunch of drivers and great moderators who put in so much of their time to making UKGPL such a good league - I'll be back...

 :) ;) :D ;D >:(

First of all ;
Congratulations to Tim on a great very well  deserved win here at Monza and  win of the the Amateur`s championship too !!
Big hand to Natan makin it 2nd in the championship and to Storm_Cloud  making it 3rd  in there.

Congratulations as well to the winners of Novice`s championship in order : Samb , Asbjeurn and Steve !!
And of course to my friend Norbert making it to an great overall 4th in his first ever GPL season . well done mate !!

Well , I like to thank all racers taken part and as well the admins for making this 65 season so thrilling and enjoyable !!
And off course big hand to all those spending so much time and work  for setting up servers  !!


I am really looking forward to next 65 saison here to come .
Hopefully with slipstream , collision box and 60fps patch  on . who knows .   

Regards
Nicky Ickx

Very short racereport :

Qualy to me went ok , being 0,4sec behind my PB serves me 4th on grid .

Catched an excellent start , lifted me on 2nd behind Tim

I let Natan passed me by to open him his race to Tim and settled on  3rd  ,
Which was quit comfortable , coz did know Hristo`s car got too less topspeed here at Monza  compared to Ferrari..
Nevertheless we got an closed situation at Para , I guess , cause in my mirrors  I  saw him suddenly run wide . Sorry for that , but to me on my screen there was plenty of free space between both cars and definitely no touch/chrash at all. But cause my engine explodes couple of meters ahead , I can imagine the collision box indeed did simulate sort of accident at Para.
Later on I noticed two times the same thing happened to drivers I overtook . Apologize for that . as usual I forgot to save replay , so cant say much really.

Anyroads  , after my pitstop I could fight my way from end of the field up to 7th in the end. Surprisingly my engine did stay alive that part. Lol.

It's been a pleasure racing the 65s this season and I'm very pleased to have won the Novice championship  ;D (Providing the results stand of course  :angel:). I must say congrats to Tim on winning the Amatures and to the Soggies for winning the team championship.

I'm afraid I was needed somewhere else just before the race started so I joined the Novices and left, in hope of a couple of points for turning up. It was sad to leave the season on a whimper but nevertheless the entire season has been very enjoyable. Bring on season 17!

Another in a long series of crap races for me.

Bogged down off the line but not as badly as the Ferrari in front of me.  That let Evil get the jump on me but only as far as Curva Grande where he rear-ended Ken.  Luck was with me at this point as I passed between the two of them.

Settled down to follow Ginsters BRM but only as far as Lesmo 1 on lap 2.  At this point, on my replay, Natan didn't allow Hristo anywhere near enough room and Natan ended up spinning all over the place and causing all manner of mayhem.  Including bringing me to a halt.

When I set off again I had Burt for company.  He passed me going into Curva Grande a few laps later but my hopes of using him for slipstreaming disappeared when he took to the sand at Parabolica a few laps later.

I found Ken looking lost and we both plodded on, although I think he was showing as a lap down.  He must have had a worse time than I had!

I think that the server was only showing one car behind because after a while my pit board said that Nicky was closing but all I could see was Ken.  With a lap to go, although I didn't realise it, Nicky cleared Ken and I was in trouble.  I had been closing on Evil but wasn't going to be able to get to him before Nicky got to me.

I made myself as wide as I could past the pits but there was no defence when he pulled right between Curva Grande and Lesmo 1.  I went into Lesmo 1 wide but Nicky seemed to lose control under braking and swiped me against the Armco, from where I rebounded into the path of Ken. 

When I set off, eventually, I found the car a bit strange and going into Parabolica the front right locked very quickly.  Not realising that it was the last lap I stopped and did a ShiftR, only to be told that the track wasn't clear.  The world and his mate came steaming past whilst I sat there in sight of the finish.  Including Burt!

The side swipe at Lesmo cost me dear.

Dave tried to put me in the BT11 at the half way point of the season but I declined on the basis that whilst it would enable me to run at the front, it was hardly fair on the other drivers, such as Evil and John Roberts who would still be trapped in the slow cars.

If next season's 65 are organised along similar lines and I am able to race in it, then I will be in a BT11 or Lotus. 

My best race meeting so far and I was hoping for a good one to close out the season.

Got a PB in qually both with the lap time and 3rd slot. Made a place into CG on Lap1 and my heart was a thumping as I have never run as high as 2nd in an official race.

I got messy in Lesmo 2 and got outhauled by Asbejurn then the next lap I did it again and this time it was Norbert's turn. I put up minimal resistance, making one go round the outside and the other (who was closer) have the inside.

Next Clutch got out of Parabolica better than me and beat me into CG so I was running 5th which I would have been happy to finish in tbh, but then came the mayhem at CG as the 3 in front of me decided to build a roadblock. I aimed to the outside then the inside but a Ferrari was heading that way so pointed it down the centre and luckily got through the carnage, unlike those behind me.

So, back in second I said out loud to myself "Take it easy, don't spin and you can finish 2nd." Not one to make things easy I spun at Parabolica which let the leader Bartosz get away and open up an 800yds lead which I closed to no less that about 700yds. It was all about keeping ahead of the chasing Norbert from then on with no sign of me catching the leader, even without my spin, but then I wouldn't have risked a pass anyway as Clark-Hill Racing may not have scored a memorable 1-2.

With 7 or 8 to go I noticed the fastest lap time was indeed not that fast so i had a few pops at it and got it with 4 to go. I still wasn't that fast but made a couple of errors that could have put me in trouble so I backed off and secured the 1-2. Asbejurn nicked the laptime from me by a midge's widgy.

Great way to end the debut season for me. Now to think about Season 17 and the possible formats.

 :( :(

extremly sorry for that Clive , hope you will except my apologize.

trouble is , to me there wasnt any problem while brakin into L1 , as well plenty of space between both of our cars .nothing happend to my car , was only my left mirror told me that there must have been something happend to you. damned hell its a pitty.  :( :(

hope the 65patch will come soon .

here a outake from an RSC thread . Paul explaining :

There is nothing wrong with GPL netcode.

We have been testing 66 for which I have modified the collision boxes to exactly match each individual car.
Providing the clients have a good connection to the server you can race wheel to wheel with 66. Last night I was pushing Stuart through Ascari at 160 mph, our cars did not fly into the air. We have also had some very close racing in the test sessions with wheels only mm apart.

There is a problem with collision boxes for other seasons. For 67 all the boxes are the same and as we know the cars are different sizes so there are errors there.

For 65 the errors are compounded because 65 uses 67 collision boxes and yet the 65 cars are much smaller. So although it appears in the graphics that you have clearance between you and the next car, in fact you do not.

For 69, although it also uses 67 collision boxes the situation is reversed. Because 69 is generally wider than the 67 you can be very close to other cars without incident.

Again this is all providing the connection between clients and server are good.



paul

http://forum.racesimcentral.com/showthread.php?t=298957

Well, what an end to my first ever season in a GPL league!  8)
After Zandy I realised I was only a couple of points off Natan (this was before the moderation and his penalty) and realised it was all or nothing here at Monza.
Not being overkeen on the nothing part I spent last Friday night working solidly on setups and simply working out the fastest and most efficient way around Monza - When I said in the pre-race chat that I did 100 laps I wasn't kidding, the lap counter had just flipped over to 0 again when I finished my final test run in the qualifying setup (Named 'Crazy Qualifying' due to the mind bogglingly daft camber settings and wierd gear ratios :ninja:)

I was slightly disapointed with my qualifying result as the setup was good for consistant 1.36.9xs when I created it, just couldn't find that extra tenth on the day even though Pribula was telling I was good for 1.36.6something. All 3 of my fastest laps were good for pole though so I was happy enough anyway  ;D

Then the start:
Was double checking my setup and furiously bailing fuel out of the tank having noticed the race was 3 laps shorter than I'd planned for, I think I joined the grid with only 4 seconds to go!  :o
Then proceeded to switch off all my pribula displays barring the gap behind/ahead display and nearly forgot to select first before the flag was raised  ::)
I made good when the flag was dropped as I made a perfect full throttle launch down the track, I was so pleased with this and the sound of someone behind bogging down (Jethro as it turned out) that I totally forgot about my unusual gear setup and plonked her into 2nd the instant I reached 12,000Rpm.
Major disaster! 2nd was geared long enough to take me through the entire Lesmos complex without changing so I was now at just under 8,000Rpm and watching Nicky making a slow advance on me in Prib.
Luckily the rest of my gearing was slightly more conventional so I'd stabalised the gap just before entering Curva Grande, where I managed to pull .1 of a second ahead, each Lesmos gave another .2 which had me at approx 1 second in the lead already!
The next two laps were a pleasure to drive as my race setup is so utterly controllable and easy on cold tires, lap 3 saw my first 1.37 and a gap of over 2 seconds to the car behind, It also brought warm tires and an end to my pleasure as the car entered race mode.
Gone now was the perfect balance of grip between front and rear tires, replaced with a slight tendancy to understeer that would rapidly snap to oversteer if a tire got too hot - it was however a very fast and consistant setup so worth the risk I felt, I have a few idea's to squeeze another tenth or 2 out of it for next time.....
I spent my time from here to lap 7 concentrating on fast clean laps, then I caught a glimpse of what I believe to be the temp guage showing nearly 120 degrees C!  :nuke:
As I was slightly pulling away from the field still I took to changing at 11,500 and occaisionally using third between the Lesmo's, this brought the temps down again and didn't seem to let Jethro catch me at all so I continued with the nursing....

Everything remained stable until about 2/3rds distance when Jethro threw out his balast and started to very slowly pull me back in, gaining a couple of FL's on the way - My 'safe' race tactics had to be thrown out of the cockpit now if I was to win so the 12,000 rev limit was re-drafted and where suitable I held 2nd between the Lesmo's (By this point the car was of course faster, I was hitting approx 13,500Rpm on these ocaisions!).
It slowed his approach but he was still coming, with about 3 laps to go the gap was 2.5 - 3 seconds when I caught (Burt?) spinning down the track on the exit of Lesmos 2. It seemed that each time I changed direction to avoid him his car would move that way :eek:
Thankfully he stopped spinning in time to see me and stay clear so I got past cleanly, at Parabolica Jethro wasn't to be so lucky - don't know what happened there but the gap went from an indicated ~2 seconds to showing the car I'd just past again (I couldn't seem to see more than 1 car back either) some 8 seconds back.
You shouldn't be penalised for your Shift R I'd imaging Jethro, and looking at the analyer I'm not 100% sure it cost you a win anyway.  :)
It would have been damn close by the line (under half a sec by my reconing :fencing: ) but unless I made a mistake under pressure I don't think you had time .

So, a very hard race despite the lack of wheel to wheel battles for position - thanks for keeping me sweating! (literally! I stank after that race :-[)


Thankyou to everyone in the league, you've been a pleasure to race against. I have fond memeries of battles with probably half of the field!
And - of course - A really big thankyou to the moderators and admin here at UKGPL, none of this would have happened without you  :notworthy:

Now I just hope I can keep my seat in the Honda as Mrs. Fujikawa has sent recruitment 'officers' to my house to request I join them - They have big swords so I don't want to have to say no!  :helpsmilie:


*edit:
Oddly enough my Replay analyser only shows peak water temps of 104 degrees and oil temps of 106  ???
Seems my safety ploy in the midpart of the race was unnessary, I also need to study my dials a tad more carefully so I know I'm looking at the right ones!

Mine turn ;)

I'm very happy with the race result 8)

In practice I beat my PB, and finish on pole.

I had a good start to the race, and very quickly managed to build 2 second lead. My problems starts when Asbjeurn came on second place. He was very fast that I just couldn't escape. For some time I thought that my heart will jump of my chest, like an alien ;)
On lap 8 Asby had spin, and my pulse were normal again. After that I have concentrated on making clean laps, and keep mike away from me ;)

I want to thank everyone involved in UKGPL for keeping that wounderfoul Sim alive, and letting me to race with you :)

As you seem to be well aware of the collision box problem, why not drive accordingly?? :)

It was a mixed season for me, with the Cooper being so underpowered and although that works for qualifying most of the time, except at tracks like Monza, it gives you no chance of passing in races and generally loses you positions at the start. So most of the time I had to push too much plus a few missed races, but overall it's been an enjoyable season for me.

About the Monza race, I was quite pleased with my qualifying lap but it was still only good enough for 6th I think. I had a great start though and could've gone even further up if I didn't have to lift up to avoid the Honda infront of me. Still managed to pass a few cars and on the run to Lesmo I was alongside what turned out to be Natan (thanks Clive) and although I outbraked him and kept absolutely to the inside he must've turned into me and sent himself off, but luckily for me my car didn't react too much.

I pushed hard while the tyres were cold and people were slowing each other down and similar accident happened on the next lap with somone when again I had the inside and the guy chosed to not leave much room, but nothing I can do about it.

I was up to 3rd or 4th at the time, can't remember, but to keep up with the fast cars ahead meant I had to take risks all the time which wasn't comfortable at all and eventually I paid the price by going off at Parabolica twice. First time it was when trying to go around the outside of Nicky (we didn't made contact, I just ran wide and touched the grassy edge), but that off didn't cost me much time and his engine expired infront of me on the s/f straight. For some laps I could almost keep up with Jethro but then he put the hammer down and disappeared into the distance. I guess I could've slowed down a bit and secure 3rd because the next one behind was some 6 seconds away, but I kept pushing and went off again at Parabolica, this time losing alot of time and many positions.

The final couple of laps saw me slowly closing in on the two cars ahead, but it wasn't enough and with 1 lap to go my PC restarted for some reason.

Grats to Tim for winning the title!

It's not just the collision boxes you have to consider, have you read this?

http://www.xs4all.nl/~westrab/gplol1.htm

and this

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=5318.0

I have watched the replay of the incident with Clive and I'd have to say you had the corner and the onus was on Clive to stay wide. On my replay at least the cars get very close before the warp contact but it just looks like the normal GPL prediction error and could easily have happened in 67's I'd say.

Crazy warp contacts that send cars off wildly happen even on LAN with very low ( < 50 ms) latency, it's just the way GPL's dealing with it. Considering how old the sim is and that for years on it still had the best (and still has one of the best) net codes it just takes a bit of cautious driving to avoid any major problems when racing close. Of course mistakes do happen now and then.

I had given up the corner and I thought I was staying wide.  But I wanted to be close for a tow on the back straight.

In this series of pics shows what I am looking at, which could well be different to everyone else.

The first shot is as we approach the corner and from that point onwards Nicky starts to weave a bit under braking.

The second shot is as Nicky first starts to move out and the thirst is where the contact is made good and proper.

Throughout the sequence I am moving to the left of the racing line and stay on the outside of the track.  When contact is made we are probably just left of centre.

I put it down as lost it under braking because of the weaving under braking and the fact that the final swipe sideways took place over several frames rather than the usual warp flick from one position to another.  But it could be a bit of warp. 

I still think that Nicky was being a bit less than generous, (on my replay) with regard to the room he was giving me, especially when you compare his position with that of Hristo overtaking Natan at the same point.

Think I prefer being overtaken by H.  Which is fortunate because it happens so often.  ;D

(http://www.planet-venom.co.uk/gpl/CL&NI_a.jpg)
(http://www.planet-venom.co.uk/gpl/CL&NI.JPG)
(http://www.planet-venom.co.uk/gpl/CL&NI-c.jpg)
(http://www.planet-venom.co.uk/gpl/NV&HI_L2.jpg)

Hello,

Really enjoyed the 65 season, a big thank you to everyone who took part, especially the mods and the race organisers.

This was my first season racing online, and I’m very glad I did it. It was a huge learning experience for me, and I’ve got to admit that at time I never thought I would be able to race against other people, as I was so slow. I’m glad that I made all the races, even if some of them didn’t last long for me. Next season I hope to enter the Novice 65 championship again and hopefully an other series, maybe the 66’s or 69, depending on how they are run?

The story of my Monza race is a bit of a disappointment for me, I had a chance of getting quite a bit of practice in for the race, and I thought I was doing well, so was looking forward to the race. I started qualifying in the Novice race, and was OK, I finished 2nd on the grid, not with a personal best but close enough and would not of been able to beat the pole, really big well done to Podkrecony_Ziutek, you where the class of the field.

I started the race slowly, I was very cautious off the line, and let Mike go without a fight, I’ve lost too many places at the start due to being silly. I was slow on the first lap and Norbert and Asbjeurn both got past me, but I wasn’t too worried. End of the second lap and I was fighting off a quickly gaining Clutch, and made a huge mistake under braking for the final corner, I was too busy watching my mirrors and not my braking point, ended up braking far too late and getting stuck in the hedge. I had to wait for the whole field to go past until I could Shift & R, after that I was just trying to control myself and stop any other mistakes. I took my stop and go and carried on to try to save something from my drive. I was doing OK, then I disco’d :(

Just in time to start the Amateurs race, I joined with 3 minutes to go, only time for 1 flying lap, I put in a 1:38 dead, which I was surprised to see put be 9th on the grid. At the start of the race I made sure I kept of off everyone way, and pretty much jest let anyone who challenged me past, which of course put me last, but in a way that helped as I came across the mass pile up at the first corner and tried to slowly thread myself through it, but couldn’t, I hit a spinning car which destroyed my engine, which ment I needed a Shift & R.
After that I pretty much settled down for a steady run and tried to make the least amount of mistakes as possible. I caught Steve Bucket after a few laps but didn’t want to risk anything and as such stayed behind him looking to see if there was anywhere I could get past. We both caught a cooper recovering on the start finish straight, Steve got past but I didn’t and the rest of my race was spent following the cooper. I didn’t really want to risk being silly so didn’t try too hard to get past, he was really quick getting out of Lesmo 2, I did get a run each lap going into Curve Grande but I didn’t want to try a risky move.

In the end I was very happy with my clean race, I felt I was quick here, and I was very happy to get the 5th fastest race lap time for the Amateurs race.

Well done to all the racers, and especially this season race winners and champions.

As another note I’m delighted to be able to say that I have joined the Clark Hill Racing team for next season. A special well done to the drivers of Clark Hill who finished 1st and 2nd at the Novice 65 race at Monza, you’ve certainly set the bar high.

It amazes me seeing just how much space there is on the track with  the overhead shots , yet when your sat in the cockpit the world looks a whole lot different  :o

 ;)

To me ,following the picture 1, 2 & 3   , its definitely still Clives corner .
And its me coming in a way to a car , which is at least on same height and for sure not behind.

Well as I said , I am sorry on that . wasn’t my intention to overtake in a rude manner.
But  as I said as well , to me at that situation it was totally different looking :
No car beside me on the left.

But again : I apologize for that .

Yes, but you must have been aware Clive was there somewhere. Have you read Clive's posting that I linked earlier? This is not real life, there is little or no peripheral vision. ALL DRIVERS NEED TO BE AWARE OF THAT AND TAKE IT IN TO ACCOUNT.

I still think you where OK in the incident being discussed though. If I have someone coming up the inside I always assume they wont be able to stay as tight to the inside as they would like and therefore give them a very wide berth.

Seconded, however it mostly comes with racing experience.

Can somebody chuck the server replay online please? Would like to submit an incident report, but can't work out what time on the server replay it happened.

I put the server replay up on the web site Tuesday night.  You can access it via the normal link on the UKGPL Home page or click on this link (http://replays.cap35.net/sorted/UKGPL%20S16/Novices/S16_NAT_R10_Amateurs_Monza.zip).

Dave linked me to the wrong page then.* ;) Musta missed you putting it up. Thanks. :)

*Or my eyesight's completely f***ed! There's me thinking it's linear, but nooooooo...........

I don't want to preempt the moderator here but if I may point you to the appropriate rules you should be able to judge for yourselves and hopefully come to the same conclusion the moderator will make.

There is still overlap so neither driver had won the corner outright, there is still a lot to fight for.

If you can't see a car in your mirrors then you must assume it is along side and therefore hold your line accordingly.  Have a look at the section on blind spots here (https://www.ukgpl.com/rec_dvr_beh/rec_driver_beh.htm).  When fighting for a corner drivers should keep to their own side of the track.  The penalty guidelines cover most scenarios - check here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/side_by_side).  Can you pick out the relevant scenario?  The moderator will have to.

Thank you for being so courteous.  Good manners make all the difference and make the whole on-line experience more enjoyable for everyone.


I would like to echo Ken's point about staying wide if you are being overtaken.  The characteristics of warp are such that the driver on the outside is more susceptible (for a detailed explanation look here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/warp)).  You are asking for trouble taking an aggressive outside line (not that I am suggesting Clive did here).  Incidentally it is the server replay that determines whether or not there was actual contact.  I assume the screen shots are from Clive's replay and if so, I think you'll find Nicky's car will not be quite so far left on the server replay.  As has been mentioned above, the 67 collision box used in the 65s is slightly larger than the car itself, this complicates the moderators task when determining whether or not warp played a role.

P.S.  Anybody who calls this right is potential moderator material ;)

That should keep 'em quiet.  ;D

Though it's often useful to appraise collisions and other incidents on the forum, I'd like you all to submit reports as well!  If we hadn't run on combined grids at times this season might have been report-only.  Next season will be pro, and report-only moderation.

I wasn't comfortable with Monza, while improved collision boxes might make a difference the Amateurs was a little of a shambles for an experienced field in 65s, and slipstream won't make it easier.  Lesmo 1 is difficult to take an outside line on, but that shouldn't be a surprise, and Curva Grande should be an easy start compared to others.  Perhaps having a longer race will make a difference.

I've analysed the server replay Captain, and these are my findings. :)

Clive got a good run out of Curva Grande, but Nicky got an even better one and drew along the inside of Clive before the braking for Lesmo. Upon braking, Clive was ahead and turning in, Nicky braked later, slid wide and hit Clive thus starting the chain reaction that caused so much chaos (great to watch on the replay BTW).

In my opinion, collision boxes do not come into this one *even though they're obviously too big for these cars*. Yes it was a factor, but Clive was on the outside, heading on the ideal racing line and the outside of Lesmo 1, and Nicky plain didn't give Clive enough room for both of them to make the corner. If Nicky had been just ever-so-slightly earlier on the brakes, or turned into the corner and took more of the inside line and thus left Clive a little more space, the incident could in all likelihood have been avoided, and I'd put money on Nicky blasting past Clive up the inside of Lesmo 2 and being let go ahead of Clive without any tagging.

As it turns out, Nicky got away absolutely scot-free, and Clive and Ken had the mutha-of-all-shunts!

Nicky: you need to be more aware of your surroundings, but also of your car placement when overtaking cars. When you plan an overtake, think where the other car will be when you're up the inside or round the outside of somebody, and give enough room to account for drift under braking or warp / lag. It will save you a lot of hassle in the future and set you up nicely for the 67 cars.

I think it's been unnecessary repeated a few times already what Nicky has done wrong and what he has to do, I doubt he hasn't learned by now, so give him a rest.  ::)

As for example of bad outside lines watch my two passes on Natan and someone else in the first few laps, but hopefully people learned from those as well.

As long as people try to race each other as they would do in real life (presumably) incidents will happen, though we're lacking the fear (of injury) factor.

In my (real) experience, fighting over a corner when you have been out manouvered or beaten is a waste of time and effort.....at best costing you time that you have to claw back before another crack at them, by which time they will have consolidated the position and are back in their groove and harder to catch and dislodge. Or at worst....a big mistake ending with you or both having a painful slide down the road on your butts. Clearly, conceding the corner early and putting yourself in a position to achieve a good drive off the corner, allows you to put pressure on the other competitor before he/she gets comfortable in the the new slot, and with a bit of thought and planning, perhaps a successful attack at the next corner.....or even just 'showing a wheel' to keep piling on the pressure til a mistake is made and you get a free shot at the position.
A half arsed passing effort is only gonna make YOU the target at the next corner....so make it good, and make it stick. Sometimes even slowing back your laptimes 1/4 or 1/2 a second makes it very difficult for an opponent in a similarly powered machine to 'get a run on you', provided you keep it tidy and online.

Mind you, complex setups that require most of your concentration to drive, don't leave a lot of your concentration dollar (borrowed from Keith Code) to apply to racecraft. We should be working towards the same concept employed by builders/designers of modern fighter aircraft. They are ridiculously easy to fly, as pilots with less than 100hrs TT convert to them, so that the majority of the pilot's time can be employed operating the defensive/offensive systems on the aircraft.
Therefore, the easier the car is to drive, the more time and effort can be put into racing it in traffic. And then there are the 3 main things that build a good racer. Practice, practice and....you guessed it, more practice.
There aint no magic bullet here folks, time in the seat/cockpit is the key. Which is why so few of the MotoGP ratbags are any good at actually racing. Most are good cutters of fast laps in practice/testing, but only a handful are any good at actually racing a motorcycle. And due to the stupid regulations they operate under, the riders get so little time on the bike before they are forced to race them. It shows in the quality of the races. And F1?.....well lets not go there.
Geoff.

Well said Geoff , but I'm a little bit worried reading your post that maybe your giving too many of my secrets away   ;) ;) ;)

Yes, agreed. I do feel a little responsible for starting it but really all I wanted to do was politely point out that you can't just go blaming the collision box for every contact that's made in the 65's. Driver awareness is the most important key to succesful online racing. I am no saint myself and have had my fair share of yellow's over the course of my UKGPL career, but I'm just trying to cut short the learning curve for others. I know it took me ages to loose my real life racing instincts in close combat such as squeezing and block passing, you can rarely use them online for all the reasons discussed.

 ;) ;)

After studying all hints , comments and shouts , ( and to me those shouts are absolutely ok , cause it was simply me did major mistakes ) , I now understand  why & what I am have done wrong all the time.
Thanks for those link Phil.

Well , I simply lay back on an totally wrong imagination on how the blind spot in GPL really is. ( my fault due to my stupidity . )

My idear of how the blind spot works was like this:

(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu176/Nicky_Ickx/wrongblind_spot.jpg)

didn’t realized that the blind spot goes even into front direction

(http://i645.photobucket.com/albums/uu176/Nicky_Ickx/real_blind_spot.jpg)

so my misunderstanding of that ,always had have make me think , the moment no car is to see beside me it must been  that far behind me ( red line ) that my process of overtaken did finished.
Damned bloody wrong by me .lol.

So hope my apologizes will be accepted.
In that above context I agree that collision box failure for 65 mod doesn’t count really .

Well I will try to build in my new knowledge in to my driving style quick.

And of course , plz correct my scored points at Monza to none.

Sorry for that trouble Clive , Ken and all.

See ya all soon on track

Regards
NickyIckx
.
 :D

Just one more thing to point out. The view behind on the diagram is the view from the mirrors. This is the same view in both left and right mirrors. The view you see in the mirrors is just the image from a centrally mounted camera on the back of a car. So that is why you only ever see a car that is directly behind you and it is impossible to see a car that is either on the left or right.

To build on that, even with the "Look Left" and "Look Right" keys, your visibility is still reduced. The best viewpoint is chase-view, but that has major drawbacks when it comes to driving effectively with these cars; I can't describe it but others might be able to.

One drawback is that while chase view has more peripheral vision it has no mirror at all. And also I think most of us prefer the virtual car racing experience rather than the virtual helicopter pilot experience.

I have a button programmed on my wheel to flick to chase view.  I used to use it a lot when I was starting out with GPL but these days I have become better at knowing where everyone has gone to from the last view in my mirrors.  As has been said.  I general if they have disappeared then you assume they are alongside.

I wouldn't recommend the look left or right buttons unless stationary.  For me it would be an almost certain crash.  Just can't decouple my arms from my brain when the new view arrives and I just steer into what suddenly appears as an almighty drift.

They can be usefull when rejoining and you have managed to perch yourself somewhere that doesn't allow you to see who is bearing down on you.

I used to have similar difficulties with look left and right but I have trained my brain to cope. The key is not to linger on the view, I only flick the wheel button for a very brief glimpse, but enough to see if someone is there.

Exactly what I have set up Ken.. Its invaluable when things seem to be getting close, and a glimpse is all you need.
Of course it does not stop you rear ending an innocent party who is in plain view occasionally...... ::) :-\

Ah!  You mean Evil Wheezer's signature crash.  ;D

I think that the ability to look to the sides is well worth having for the 66mod.  And if they are really going to bugger about with 65s then that as well.  At present, in 67 and 65, you usually only need to deal with one attach at a time but in 66s at somewhere like Monza they can come at you in bunches.  You move out of one bloke's way and end up getting a hail of abuse from the guy you have just sent into the trees on the other side.

Yes, it was while beta testing the 66 mod that I honed my look left/right skills!! I didn't even have any mirrors at all!! They kept changing the car 3dos so it was pointless spending time editing them to create my virtual mirrors and I just can't drive at default FOV's anymore!!

Interesting discussion. I've had my share of crashes caused by my not so successful attempts to pass other drivers, but I don't blame the collision boxes for those, only my own clumsiness.  :laugh:

Anyway: First of all a big thank you to the organisers of this league. I have a few years of league experience, from NGPLS, and although I'm not dissatisfied with the way that league was run, I must say that I'm impressed by how profesionally UKGPL is run, compared to NGPLS. Kudos to everyone involved! :thumbup1:

I'm very pleased with the way my race started and how it ended. Only some messup in the middle put a stain on my performance. I knew before the race that this track invited for some side by side battles, so I decieded to take a bit of an unusual approach to the practice. I drove on one side of the track the whole lap through for a whole stint, then the next stint I changed side. I managed to get below 1:40 driving on the outside of the track, and the training method was effective. In the race I felt much more secure when I got side by side with another driver through the turns.

The qually was a bit weird. Early on Norbert was on pole with 1:38.68, according to my pribluda. A few laps later I got a 1:38.68 also! After a while both me and Norbert was pushed down the list by other drivers, so I had to push on. However, I was not able to get a proper lap, but I managed another 1:38.68! Later I improved my time with a few hundredths, but didn't gain any places, so I ended on 6th, but three almost identical times on the same qually, that's weird! :o

Race start. I had Norbert on my right, and Clutch in front. Clutch had a bad start, and I had to back off a little and wait for him to get up to speed. For some reason he slid to the right, and opened up for me to pass him on the left. Norbert came up on his right. I thought I gave him room, but I see now in GPLRA that me and Norbert really squeezed him between us. It's a wonder that didn't end in a massacre!

I got past Clutch safely, and had more speed than Norbert, so I gained to places before Curva Grande. Alastair and Mike was side by side in front of me, Alastair on the outside, which he apparently didn't feel comfortable with, (He should try my training methods! :P) so he backed off and lost speed, so Mike got away. I had a better line, and soon got onto his slipstream, so towards Lesmo 1 I was able to get up on his side and outbraked him so we went side by side through the turn. Thanks to my practice, I was able to keep up the speed, and again, Alastair had to let another one through thanks to his insecurity in those situations.

Next one was Mike. I had to work a bit harder to catch him, but already on lap two I slipstreamed past him going towards Parabolica. He tried to take a defencive line on the right, so I went for the outside through the turn. I stayed there through the whole turn, just to make sure not to crash. We went side by side on to the front stretch and towards Curva Grande, and I thought to myself: "I won't back off! I won't back off!" So he backed off, and I was past.

Now I thought this was the best I could get from this race. I never thought that I had a chance in hell to catch Bartosz. He was so fast during practice that I thought he would pull away from all of us. Well, qualifying is one thing, racing is another, apparently. Somehow I managed to reel him in slowly, and he had a bad line through Curva Grande a couple of times, so by lap 6 I was 0.7 seconds behind him. Entering lap 8 I was less than 0.7 seconds behind, and not far from catching his slipstream.

I guess I got a bit eager now, and lost my head a little. I got a bad entrance to Curva Grande and spun. It could have gone well, if it wasn't for Norbert and Clutch approaching. While truying to avoid me, they crashed into each other. Norbert spun into the rail, and I lurked past him, but hit Clutch, who spun in front of me. Mike sneaked by this mayhem unscathed, while Geoff only just touched me, enough to send him spinning off the track and into the rail. Norbert and Clutch got away, while I needed a couple of seconds to collect myself. When I finally got going again, Geoff was still stuck in the grass. I was a little hot still, and messed it up in Lesmo 1 as well, before I pulled myself together. I had lost enough time now!

Now I thought that Norbert and Clutch was too far ahead for me to catch them, so I kind of settled in for fifth. After a few laps, though, I realised that I gave myself a too large margin in the braking to Parabolica. Norbert and Clutch didn't pull away, so I knew then that I could catch them if I braked a little later there. I started hunting them down, and it didn't take long before I had them within reach.

So when Clutch had a bad entrance to Lesmo 1, I got up on his tail before Lesmo 2, and got a better exit onto the back stretch. Now an almost epic fight began. I got up on his side and we went side by side through Ascari.I outbraked him towards Parabolica and got a bit wide, so he came up on my inside and we went side by side onto the front stretch. Having the outside line, I got better speed onto the straight and got ahead, but he got into my slipstream and got past before Curva Grande. Now it was my turn to slipstream him, and I got past and went first into Lesmo 1. Braked a little late and lost a little speed, so he got on my tail again, but I got a better exit out of Lesmo 2, and pulled away. Now Norbert was my target.

While I and Clutch fought for fourth place, Norbert had the opportunity to pull away a little, so I had to really push to catch him, but I did. Lap by lap I got closer, and by lap 17 I was so close that I started aiming for his gearbox, to make use of every little trace of slipstream that might come my way. entering lap 21 I was so close that I really thought that I could make it. Exiting the Lesmos I got into his slipstream and passed him on the outside going towards Parabolica. I got a bit wide through there and thought he would be on my tail going onto the front straight, but he didn't, and third place was mine! In the last turn on the last lap!

I can't remember ever being so happy for a third place. I cheered and yelled so much that I was afraid I'd wake my one yera old son, who was sleeping in the bedroom nearby, so I had to control myself. It was a really hard fight, all through the race, so I was really pleased with myself. Only the mistake(s) on lap 8 flawed an otherwise perfect race.

Good points Ken and Clives, but you forget it's just much easier to rely on the car's engine sound to judge where someone is. I find it more than enough most of the time, except when there's a bigger group and you can't distinguish who is who. As for looking left and right, like you say - a glimpse is enough. Focusing on the sound and trusting your ears more than your eyes in general seems to be a good practice. Vision can be so deceiving.

Sorry, but someone had to  ;D

 :laugh:

I drive by a simple rule. If I hear (an)other car(s), I just keep my side of the track until it's gone, either past or behind.

Edit:The rule is simple, but obeying it isn't always easy. ;)

Graham Poole's Monza efforts seem to have been attributed to GrahamP again.

How does that happen and is there anything that Graham can do to fix it?

I've corrected the entry.  There's nothing Graham needs to do.  There was an entry for him as 'GrahamP defunct' in LM2 as well as G Poole, I'd supposed that the correction to the last race would take precedence.  However, I have since acted and 'GrahamP defunct' has been expunged!  If he'd wanted two names he should have used a hyphen like any normal man, or Loot's old chum Lord Justice Potter-Hesiod, who most certainly isn't normal.  

.... or a Lord.