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When starting UKPnG Season One, I believed that 'Clubmans' was a fun way of boosting the amount of close racing everybody will see during an average race. I remain of the opinion it does boost close racing 8), but....

The last thing I wanted is for anybody to feel their racing is being spoilt by the current system we're trying out. That was the reason I stopped publishing target times (people started getting stressed when they couldn't meet them). Dropping that worked for one race, but people are now finding new things to get stressed about. The current system is also proving not only quite time consuming for me (while my available time has reduced), but many of you guys are also putting in a ton of effort that is surely unsustainable long term.

So I am thinking we should look at alternatives that require less race by race management, but still maintaining some kind of clubmans approach. For example, in the current system we're having to rank every car selected according to how it performs at that track. That info is then in massively relevant at the next track & all the testing has to happen again ::).

This is Season One after all, so we have a bit of licence to experiment. I have had a suggestion for a slightly different method of 'clubmans' we could use from Paul, which seems worth a try to me. Hopefully he'll pop on here shortly to summarise his idea. Alternatively, someone else might have an idea & this would be the place to share it please?

So I'd like to encourage you all to add your thoughts on the current season, how it's going, what's right & more importantly what can be improved. Even if you've not joined us for a single event, tell me why not  :)

OK - here is the idea:

At the start of the season, all cars would be ranked using a points scoring system. Scores would be based primarily on time difference per lap for a quick driver on a typical track, normalised per minute. 1 point = 0.25 secs of time difference. The track used would be a mixture of fast and slow, straight and twisty. The scores would then be tweaked  to allow for other factors - fuel usage & tank size, tyre usage, wet weather ability (assuming we have wet races) and Ease of driving - tricky cars should be slightly cheaper IMO.

Each driver would be given an allocation for the season  - e.g 100 points. This would be done by estimating the speed of the driver over a 1 minute lap of a typical circuit - we have enough evidence already for that I think. Driver A who is 1 second a lap slower over a 1 minute lap than driver B would get 4 points (0.25 x 4) to use for every race in the season over driver B. If the season was 10 races long then driver A would start with 40 more points.

Every race each driver chooses a car, which costs x points from their allocation based on the score for that car. If they don't race then they are charged the average per race for their allocation. If they don't start the race then they also get charged the average, just to discourage people joining practice or qual for a minute in a very cheap car and then disconnecting (to save points).

If a driver ends up over-spending for the season then they are penalised a LOT for every point over - the idea is that they will certainly lose out by doing so and overspending is very much to be discouraged.

As I see it there are a number of advantages to such a system:

   - Far less effort for mods - no need to evaluate the cars per track. This is paramount as the current system is unworkable in the long term.
   - Drivers can choose any car within budget. If they are comfortable in one car then they can stick with it but others can pick and choose.
   - Drivers know from the start which cars they can take. No longer will they practice in one car only to see it change groups.
   - No arguments over fairness - everyone plays by the same rules, since anyone can drive any car.
   - It introduces an element of strategy - drivers who want to can choose the right car to suit the track. They can also choose which tracks to try to win and which to make a slow car work for midfield points.
   - It lets drivers choose to have a glory day in a fast car. The slower drivers will find that they are near the front more often (hopefully).


There are a couple of issues with this

   - How do we deal we new drivers?
      I suggest they are given a pro-rata allocation, working on the basis of a pessimistic assessment - in other words, we assume a driver is quicker than he might be, but if he turns out not to be then we bump his allocation later.


   - How do we deal with drivers who improve?
      This is connected to point one, but if a driver gets rapidly better then his allocation needs to be reduced.

Now those of us old enough to remember the glory days of the first age of online simracing (GPL) will realise that we've tried this sort of thing before. It was called 'tokens', and in some ways it worked well. In other ways though it didn't, and I can understand people having a few reservations about resurrecting it. I honestly feel though that this is different. People won't insist on driving the fastest car all season (which was the main problem before), so we don't need to cater for overspending (other than to make it prohibitive). Also, this is much more a fun league, so drivers are more likely to accept the quirks of fate that the system will throw up. I think we would end up with a similar feel to the existing championship, but with less work and some added strategic elements for those that wanted to exploit them. I commend it to the house!   

Let me know what you think.

Paul

The only thing i disliked about the current system was that it denied me the chance to race my favourite (not necessarily the quickest) cars at different circuits and/or sometimes i would put a few hours practise in only then to find my car was deemed too quick (by an alien) then moved into another group, which is fairly frustrating. The plus side of that was i got to try out cars that i might not normally have driven and found to my delight they were a real blast to race with. (compared to the rubbish GTL versions...sorry but thats what i believe!)

I understand that the current groupings system must be tons of work for the admins so happy to go with anything that alleviates their problems with the effort required. Though on first read this new proposal sounds like a lot of work too ?

If we could trust the human nature of not always picking race winning cars, then i am sure most of us would just want to race our favourite cars in whatever class and enjoy the experience of emulating our old race heroes/cars. Alas, as we know from the past in GTL and P&G, too many go for the quick easy fast option of Alfas and Elans, fine if that is their favourite car, but i'd be surprised if there are that many classic Elan fans about ;)

We also dont want to get too wrapped up in rules and politics in our classics racing, so if this new system is easy to initiate and police then go for it ! I just dont want to suddenly see top heavy grids of race winning cars leaving the rest for dust.

I like the current version, although I can understand that it would be a lot of work for the organisers.


One idea I had a while ago (and I was going to suggest once the season had finished) was this. It's nothing spectacular, just thought I'd let you know about it:

The cars are sorted into groups in a similar way to Paul's suggestion, although it this case I'd say three tracks; high, medium and low speed. For example, Monza, Nurburgring and Cadwell.

After that the drivers are assigned groups, and they pick a car from that group. They'll then drive that car for the entire season. They would be allowed to change car once (as in UKGTR) without penalty.

This way the drivers get used to the car and they know exactly what to practice with. One thing I've found to be a problem before (at least it was with me) is when someone picks a car that's fast for that track, or fastest within their group for that track, without being able to control it properly. By keeping the same car throughout the season drivers would be more likely to pick a car they're comfortable with and can control easily.


I got the idea for this from a few AI races I did with one of the stock P&G groups sorted by pace. At Oulton, when it rained the Mini was fastest as a combination of the track and weather slowed the Jag Mk2 down. At a higher speed track the Jag would beat the Mini as it has more power. At a medium track it was fairly balanced, either could win.

How does your suggestion level out the drivers Tibernius?

They'd be sorted into groups the same way as before. If someone gets moved up a group they have to change car, but they don't get a penalty for it. If they get moved down a group they can either keep the current car or change to one in the new group without penalty. I haven't figured out how it could handle drivers joining partway through the season yet.

Nothing to figure out really Tibs, they would be put in a drivers group as per they are now & pick a car for the rest of the season like the other drivers in the group already did. They may or may not be promoted further down the line like you say.


I totally understand your frustrations on that MJ & am pleased you managed to take a positive view from it (of checking out new cars). But a change to the system (be it Paul's, Tibs or someone else's idea) will hopefully lessen the frustration for people.

Keep your ideas flowing in please guys :)

OK, I see what you mean now. The main problem I think is that people like to try different cars in this fun league. Personally I don't want to get lumbered with just one slow car all season. It also makes it hard to find a subtle way to handicap drivers. Part of the problem with the current system is that there are only 4 groups. There is quite a difference between the fastest driver in a group and the slowest, but they all have the same cars to choose from. My idea allows us to have a much finers distinction between drivers - perhaps only an extra few points, which might mean a quicker car in just one race over a close rival.

they werent really frustrations as such in the true sense of the word..more very mildly miffed in a huff and puff kind of way  ;D i soon got over it  ;)

The racings been great so far and the grids fantastically varied 8)

It could be that we end up using a combination of the best bits of different peoples ideas (who knows).

One of the strengths of your idea for example Paul is the way the drivers could be split up. Four groups as you say does make each group quite diverse (the current Aliens group ranges for example, from yourself to 'one of my team mates'  :laugh:).
One of the strengths of Tibs idea is that it is very straight forward, you know where you stand & issues with not wanting to drive the same car all season long can be solved by having the equivalent of GT1 & GT2 category races. Effectively giving each driver four cars over the season, which might work out as three races in each car. But I guess it does mean the Aliens are being very limited in car choice with only above average cars available at best :-\ :-\ :-\.

But I'm after everyone's ideas (even Goths ;)) & opinions at this point... so keep them coming  :)

Another strength of my system is that it is sort of self-regulating. If you have to pick a car for the season, you may find it isn't that great for the tracks chosen. If you have a free choice you can select the cars that work best within your budget.

Part of the idea behind mine (which I forgot to mention :-[) was that it would have a mix of all the types of track over the season, so all types of car would work. If it was, as Legzy mentioned, a 3-4 race season per car class, then we'd have say, Monza, Monaco and Donington, as an example.

Purely time constraints. I can't make Tuesdays, otherwise I'd be here.

Thank you Phil, good info. I happen to know you're not the only one in that boat.

I guess I have a couple of comments!

1. I love PnG,...... I now.... (was gonna use the word hate ! but I wouldn't go that far!).... think we should drop GTL. Sooner the better!

2. Love the clubmans but appreciate the effort involved is not sustainable. My main concern always comes down to time.. or lack of it!
I always want a choice of car but do not have the time or inclination to test every car combination for every race! Give me a choice of 4 or 5 may be? per race and I am happy!

3. Anything that promotes close racing gets my vote!

4. For some strange reason I seem to have this love of poorly handling, over weight, over powered cars at the moment! Don't know where that has come from but please make sure I always have one of them! :)

You guys can have the roller skates!  ;D

You shouldn't have to test all the cars though. Just look at cars which a) suit your style, b) suits the track and d) fits your budget. Seems simple enough to me.

not sure i like the idea of being able to pick cars to suit a track  :-\ The whole idea of a racing driver is to be able to get the best he can from a car at a variety of tracks. The flipside is i wouldnt want to be stuck in a Cobra at a twisty circuit but if someone uses that for fast tracks then they should also suffer it elsewhere !
I am worried that very quickly, half the field of available cars will become redundant/unwanted and we end up with grids of identical cars. :'(
Fine for the odd event but wouldnt want to see it every week.

Mark, everyone would have a different budget, so a lot of the drivers will have to choose cheaper cars. With the current system we get to choose from a range of cars, so I can't see how this is any different?

okay, its all fine with me, look forward to seeing what pans out. Well done and Good luck !  :)

Same here  :(

Can't we also use the rule to throuw out the most popular car for the next x races (like in the GTL Endurance rounds).

My random thoughts...

The whole point of this is to even out the field, so the faster dont take the fastest cars and the slower ones are allowed to pick slightly easier cars, right? But it seems people are getting a bit annoyed that the car choice is pretty limited and its something i've notice in GTL where we used to have races using the whole class, rather than just a select few cars allowing us to have a varied mix of cars which helped to even out the various abilities.

You've been putting people in groups, the cars in groups and setting target times which to me feels as though your trying too hard to restrict things and so are having to constantly adjust things every race. Clearly a slightly free-er, less constrained way be better.

Trying to classify the cars based on a few typical tracks might work generally but then I think you'd have to do some fine tuning on a race-by -race basis and also people suit different cars.

I'm not sure where you car choices have come from, but havent they all been put into classes in-game? Could you not use that? Would it not allow a greater car choice? Your kinda loosing the main point wth historic racing and thats the car variety seen so much.

Why not just stick with the use of an ideal lap time as thats the only way you have of being able to gauge how quick you are against others. Surely its what your using to put cars/ people into groups anyway? This should allow you to relax the car classes surely?

That's the ideal system Spanner!
Sadly people turned up & knocked a couple of seconds of the target laptimes. So at the next race other people don't want to be left behind this time etc etc..... It's human nature mate.

Only thing I know about Clubmans, is what we do in UKGPL, start season any car and depending on where you are in the league table, You have to take certain car, ie top 2 drivers take 2 of slowest cars etc. That way no pitstops needed, more close racing, Only need pitstops if you take faster car than your allowed?

I believe that the Clubmans approach is the racing equivalent of Nirvana. A seemingly easy to achieve ideal, but is actually almost never possible. It is time consuming and can often become unraveled on race day.

I think it was a good idea to try it but now is the time to say enough is enough, time to move on.

As someone who constantly enjoys the thrill of being lapped you would perhaps think that being able to take a faster car than my "betters" would be an attractive propostion. Alas it's not. If I did ever win in a Clubmans event it would feel like a very hollow success. I'd rather try to do better against guy's who aren't hamstringed with inferior cars thanks.

There are many, many different challenges that can be arranged all of which will involve substantially less management time than this current regime. Some fine examples have been mentioned above. My personal favourite remains the concept of "here are 12 circuits and here are 12 cars, race one car at each track, Go".

Any more thoughts & opinions guys?

One more option. I used to run in a GPL league centuries ago, where the cars were points handicapped
granted there were only 7 cars, but a win in a Honda got you a lot more points than a win a  Lotus
The handcap was set at the begining of the season. and you had to use each car at least once.
Not sure having to use each car would be required here with so many to choose from
but points per car means people can drive anything they want, but if they want to score big points
they have to compromise.

How many preset performance groups are there? 3? so 20 points for a win with a group 3 car
15 in a group 2 and 10 in a group 1. Same scale down to whatever placing gets 1 point, so no points
for 6th in a group 1 car, no points for  9th in a group 2 no points for 11th in a group 3 (something like that)
Would need some thinking about to work out some proper numbers, but would be only once before the
season. If there are any glaring exceptions in the car groupings during the season these could be
"promoted".

Legzy, I can understand that the current clubmans system is unworkable in the long term. I must say I find it annoying when the cars I've been practicing with gets bumped out of my group.  :-X

I feel that Paul's system is a bit too complex, and people will abuse it by deliberately taking v slow cars in a couple of races and then blasting the opposition by taking a v fast car in the next race.

I quite like Wiltshire Tony's idea of taking a different car for each race, but will it satisfy the guys who want to stay in the same car?

Even if you decide to ditch the clubmans concept I will keep racing PnG as I enjoy driving the cars more than GTL, at the moment I just can't get motivated to practice for the GTL races.

Hope you find this useful.....

Just my two penneth - personally I'm all for simplicity. I think it's been great fun and also fairly brave to test the Clubmans concept out but I would be happy to use the tried and tested pick a car from a pre-selected group and then race approach that works so well in GTL.

Some really innovative alternative suggestions but I'm just not convinced it's necessary.

i'd say maybe give Pauls method a try out for a few races and see how it pans out, just as we have the current clubmens approach. It is only season 1 after all, and a learning curve for all with this great mod. It may work out all right or give us more pointers to tweak the intended system further.  :-\

So who's going to be driving 56 cars over the same circuit to give them all a value?

Paul !  :laugh:

Yes, I'll do it if enough people want it to happen, but so far the response has been rather luke warm   :(

As I see it, we can either go back to a GTL style system, which will take no account of drivers and so spread the field out, or find a way to get a clubmans type system. All the alternatives suggested so far seem to have many of the same problems we already have - mainly that matching the car groups to the pace of the drivers in that group is very difficult. Any system which tries to create fixed groups at the start is doomed to failure IMO, as the groups will be seen as wrong within a couple of races (based on our experience so far). The reason for suggesting the new 'tokens' system was that it cannot suffer the same problems - drivers have a free choice within their budget and the whole thing will adjust automatically. It has the added benefits that there is a wide choice of cars available, which suits those who like variation, but allows people to run the same car all season if they like. I can't think of many people who this system would not work for - please say so if you feel that it doesn't work for you.

I also don't really understand why it is seen as complex? All drivers need to do is look at their budget, pick a car that fits that budget and race. You can do more if you want, but it won't change the racing that much. What is the problem with people saving a few points to have a good car in the odd race? Don't we all like our moment at the front? The GTL system is much the same - people accept slower cars and drive them for fun rather than results. This system lets them drive for fun and have it count as well! The GTL system though would mean that the field would be much more spread out. I personally have really enjoyed the mixed up races so far and I'd like to see them continue. It won't happen with the current system though because I'm not prepared any more to spend hours beforehand testing every car to be sure it is handicapped correctly (maybe someone else will, but they'd be mad IMO!).

Good discussion, my vote goes to giving Paul's idea a go for 3 or 4 races!?


M.

Don't think the idea of setting up the required data for 50+ cars just so you can have "3 or 4 races" is going to be received that well. But I've been wrong before so who knows?

I've seen Chris' pages of notes!  ;D
Bet he and Paul could do a first draft reasonably quick!
Call it 10 cars for 4 races!? Whatever suits to give it a quick go!?
Just a thought!

M.

To be honest there is already enough data available to put together a decent list. It won't have all the cars and I'm sure there would be a few anomolies, but it could serve as a starting point to test the idea. We can always tweak the values as we go along.

::) ::) ::) :P

Ill will be able to help out with any cars that need testing (what with no work on and nursing a busted little toe) i have a lot of time on my hands at the moment ;D
I don't mind how its decided to be run (whatever takes the least amount of work for all involved will be good)
Am i right in thinking with Paul's idea if your not  fussed about the championship you can blow all your credits on some smart racing cars ;D or do we have to stick within our budget for the season?

                                        I just wanna race P&G :thumbup1:
                                                      Cheers Ade

Yeah I don't think it's so complex that I think we'll have trouble understanding or anything Paul - the point was really just that perhaps the extra legwork isn't necessary in a grid filled with a variety of very different cars. I actually don't know as we didn't run it for too long before giving Clubmans a bash. I'd quite like to see how it pans out naturally. Anyway i'll be there regardless and am happy to try various systems.

Just for my own curiosity, is a reverse grid an absolute non-starter!? A double header with some sort of reverse grid would be about as close as it gets although I have a feeling it isn't going to be doable. Dug this up where they seem to have botched something together but can't work out if it's a scripting thing or if they've actually had to change the tracks themselves - http://www.nogripracing.com/details.php?filenr=6248&readme=1

I had assumed that people wouldn't do this as it isn't really cricket is it? The is no easy way to stop it though, so I think we can just ask drivers to abide by the spirit of the rules.

and Me !!  ;D

Tokens... I can't believe anyone's falling for it again...

All Paul's scheme does is turn the arbitrary driver classifications into arbitrary token allocations.


Then it's pointless. You might as well just ask the faster drivers to not take the faster cars - it's just as likely to succeed and a heck of a lot less complex.

Once you've all switched to P&G we can send those cars through the UKGTR balancing processes... ;)

I knew you'd be along soon enough to mock Dave  ::) There is a world of difference between this and the system used in UKGPL. Allocating drivers is a nightmare and hugely intensive. In an ideal world it would be fine, but it takes hours of effort for every single race, and you still get drivers complaining that this car or that driver is in the wrong group. The tokens system will take all that away and let the drivers take a car that suits them. It also lets us grade the drivers much more finely than the 4 groups we have used up to now.


It's not pointless at all. If a driver wants to completely ignore the system and drive what they want, then a) they won't win the championship, b) they will probably have a lonely time up the front and c) everyone else will know it. The crowd here are pretty unlikely to do this, mainly because the league relies on trust and goodwill anyway.


What - you mean let the AI drive them? It gets it badly wrong in some cases, although it isn't that far off most of the time.

Don't you dare touch our lovely cars :o

I can't resist a good tokens war :tank: :fencing: especially in a series where I'm not competing. :laugh:


Unless it's all changed since your first post, your proposal was based around allocating initial token budgets based on ability. So what you'll get is drivers complaining that they've got too few tokens, or that somebody else has too many.


You're starting to sound like Clarkson. "The 370Z balancing system is clearly superior in all areas but I'd rather have the Z4 token system because I can't bring myself to admit it." :P :P :P Inevitably there's some continuous refinement required, and the introduction of new cars has thrown all the balls up in the air again, but it's worked very well in GTR2 where the classes are relatively close to start with.

I think you are missing the point. Balancing the cars won't do the job, because we also want to balance the drivers. We are also trying to measure the cars, not equalise them - you can't balance a GT40 with a healey!

Much of the hard work we've put in so far has been because the AI is a crude way to measure the cars and you need a consistent human driver to make an accurate assessment. Just ask Legzy, who starts with the AI and then changes it all when we actually drive the cars!


Yes, I accept that may happen, but there is almost no way to avoid this without horrid performance balancing  :censored: At least we can make things better than a crude grouping of the drivers.

Why? Why are you trying to do something which we've tried to do repeatedly, and failed at every time? We've been down this route with ballast, restricted car selection, reversed grids. In the end, in UKGTR at least, we've just accepted that some people are faster than others.


Of course not - but if you to think you can come up with a system where they can be in the same class, in the same race, and meaningfully compete with each other just by putting a fast guy in the Healey and a slow guy in the GT40, you're in cloud cuckoo land! :P

Just out of interest - how did you get reverse grids happening Dave and why didn't they work? Was it the whole grid or top 10 only? Why is the sky blue and water wet?

Since you haven't been here up to now  :P, you won't have seen how successful some of the races have been. Yes, it is a pipe-dream to expect everyone to be exactly equal on every track, but trying to use the different cars to even up the differences in driver ability seems a worthwhile cause. I know you don't agree, but not everyone thinks like you - plenty here seem to like the clubmans concept, and all we are doing it looking for a way to make it practical over the long term. Anyway, this league is a bit more about fun and just enjoying the driving, so I think it is much easier to make it work. 

Isn't balancing the cars sort of the opposite of what we should be doing? Shouldn't we be using the difference in performance between the cars to level the drivers?

if these cars get bloody 'balanced' i will leave this league faster than a nitroused cobra  >:(

keep your mitts off them  :death:......please  :angel:  ;)

This mod was put together by total classic car racing enthusiasts/anoraks and has taken about 3+ years so far to put together. To 'balance' them would be a total farce and travesty.

End this troll-talk pronto !

Seconded.

I've posted a poll for all our current & potential drivers to let me know how you want 'UKPnG Season One' to continue... Here (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6620.0)

The poll closes on Friday afternoon.

You are correct.

That is why we used Clubmans, to increase the amount of 'close racing' drivers were enjoying in every race. The front runners shouldn't disappear into the distance & the back markers don't get left behind.

I'd love it if I could just say in the race announcement, "pick a car that you enjoy & can lap at 1:52 consistently". I'm even willing to try it if enough people think it will work. I just think that some people will suddenly (on race day) find that they can go a lot faster then they thought. What happens then? :-\

If people vote for continuing Clubmans this season, we'll work out what method of clubmans to use after that.

Que booing but.........I like the faster drivers to zoom off into the sunset.

It's more like a race

No booing here bud - think Clubmans has been a worthwhile experiment for sure but I'm happy to have the fast guys in front too. Something to work towards so I think we should at least finish out the season standard stylee and perhaps take stock after. Lets be honest, it's not going to be boring with you two gits at the helm is it.

Anyway have voted accordingly!

Appreciate the massive effort you put into the Clubmans thing Legzy
but - as a class 4 driver - if I am really honest, I find it cheating when I run in the top 10 with the likes of Paul968, JV, Ade, (pick any alien).
For me the challenge is to finish in the top 14 and ,like said before, the quicker guys are a benchmark for me.

No problems here running in the back.. the leaders always appear quicker in my mirror than I like  ;D

I saw here a lot of comments about clubmans, and when i arrived here alone, before i decided to start this adventure with some mine teammates, it sounds me like a great idea, andthat idea worked till the last race, where me & lelero probably done the wrong choice respect to the others, even if on Sunday we wasn't so far from ade's lap times with the L88.
If you want to continue with the drivers grouping system, we should have much more information about the laptimes of slower drivers, because I saw that mine laptimes, done with manual clutch and full tank, were so different between laptimes of some other group B or C drivers with the same car, and i think that maybe it's not the right way to have a clear vision of the real possibility of any driver on every car of his group... because it depends first of all by the knowledge of the circuit, by the fellings with a specific car, and some other things difficult to set per every circuit. 
Tokens approach should be a difficult work at the start, because Paul should have to assign tokens to the people in a subjective way looking at his consideration of every driver. I trust in him, and if you bet on this way for a few races, we can see how it fit to the clubmans approach.
The other way, as i seen in the last posts, is that everybody should fight for the position that he deserves, that means less work for you, and for us, but cut off the chances of victory of the slowest drivers, and will increase the gap between faster and slower.
I want to have fun during a race, and in the last one I missed so much that i had no fight during the race, except for 2 laps with mr_oily.
I think that should be good to give a try to the Paul's idea, and if it doesn't work to return to something similar at the first races, but with a less restrictive groupings, and a target Time to keep in race pace, penalizing in some way who don't respect it, and go costantly faster than this time during all the race. That should be done enlarging the car groupings or eliminating directly the drivers groupings, leaving a freedom choice to everybody in respect of that time limit. Everyone will find the right car to have the "right pace".

The Poll we were running to see if people wanted to keep clubmans for the rest of this season has now finished.
Results:
22 votes for keeping Clubmans racing
4 votes for changing to standard racing
3 voters had no big preference.

Which tells me that people do want to continue with Clubmans racing for UKPnG Season One. (Thanks to everyone who took the time to vote)

So now we've decided we're going to continue with 'Clubmans', which version do you want to try? We've had a couple of suggestions:

In no particular order:
1) The Token system, where you get to choose how good a car you want to drive at each race, but you have a season budget depending on your driver ranking.
2) A Target time is announced, a reasonable selection of cars given & people pick a car that they reckon will allow them to lap consistently (or no faster then) the target time.
3) Using a selection of the cars (that have been ranked) for the season, people choose a car that they'll stick with for the season (one change permitted without penalty).
4) Any other idea I might have missed?

Let me know if I've missed anybodies 'Clubmans' idea or if you have one not mentioned yet. I guess I'll have to stick another vote up ASAP.


p.s. if anybody really enjoys seeing all the other cars disappearing into the distance & lapping them, it's always been possible to select a slower car. Just thought that might be worth a reminder  :-\

Personally i think the current system has worked well. Yes i do find it frustrating to be denied the chance to race my favoured cars but at least it meant i got to try out other cool machinery from that era and found to my delight i really enjoyed driving some of them.  :)
Going on my own races, i would have had several potential top 10 finishes if not fallen off or knocked off at different points in a race, and that is normally where i finish...top 10, so would conclude from that, that the cars i was able to drive were the right pace to suit the field. If i ever finish in the top 6 then i count that as a great result and it always gives me something to aim for and challenge the faster guns.  8)
If you all analyse your races, how many of you would say you were unfairly penalised or prevented from running/finishing in your normal expected positions range ? I bet if anything, the only people who noticed changes to their results were some of the lower grid end finishes who were able to have their chances of glory increased and therefore enjoy their racing that bit more, and good for them  :) whereas fast guys put in slower cars probably had plenty of racing and overtaking to achieve their normal lofty heights instead of zooming off in a 2-3 horse race.

We could always throw in some free-for-all car choices every, say, 4 or 5 races so that everyone can take their favourite machinery into action. That would work well and hopefully cater for everybody throughout a clubmens season.  :)

Well.... seems i've been proven wrong with the popularity of standard GTL racing.

Have a slight preference for the Token system because I can choose from different cars.
Don't like the idea of running the same car for an entire season, the are some many great cars to try in PnG !!

I've not seen anyone adding any new ideas or pointing at any I might have missed, but I'll give till the end of the day to be sure.

I'm tempted just to go with the 'Tokens' system, as I remain convinced that just having a 'target laptime' will fail instantly. Any thoughts/objections?

Token system might be a nice choice.

Lets give it a go for a few races!?
Might be a good idea to decide how many!? 4? 5? so we have time to see if it pans out?

M.

As I'm sure you're aware, I've published details of the Road Atlanta (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6619.msg114716#msg114716) race for the 11th August, which is using the existing system but with just a handful of cars to select from.

Moving forward, we'll use the rest of the current advertised season (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=214&scoring=406&theme=4#ch406) (7 more races) to enjoy putting the 'Token' system through its paces, starting at Daytona.

More details & any required info will follow. :)