SimRacing.org.uk

Problems connecting to the Lobby?  Download this: (http://www.simbin.se/files/gtr2_ofp.zip)


All members welcome

BEWARE at turn 6/7 (straight after the Coke bridge), there is a shortcut right turn instead of the correct hairpin right 100yards further down the road. No cut track is given, but taking shortcuts on any lap (in any session) will be frowned upon. Everyone has to play the same rules. :)


Practice 1: 20:00 (20 mins)
Qual 2: 20:20 (20 mins)
Race: 20:40 (17 laps (about 40mins)) note: no warmup!


Cars allowed: See next post down for full details


Weather: Variable (with "30% wet" start)
Track: Sebring 2005 (Classic) (v1.0.2.0, download HERE (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3356.msg54521#post_sebring))
Make sure you know how to exit the pits and what the track layout is before joining! ;)
Time of Day Setting: 15:00
Start: STANDING

Minimum Pit-stops: None required.


Server: [PnG2.1] UKPnG S1
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

Notes:
(1) It's best if all drivers can make sure they are connected before the Qualifying session as drivers on track during qualifying will not see cars that join after they are on track until they go back to the garage.
(2) Please make sure you are fully aware of the SimRacing.org.uk Rules (https://www.simracing.org.uk/index.php?pid=7) especially the rules about in-game chat messages.
(3) You will need to install Power and Glory v2 from here (http://www.gtlw.co.uk/), 2.1 patch from here (http://www.gtlw.co.uk/) and enable terrain patch.
(4) Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=227)
(5) Drivers are reminded that they must select ISDN as their bandwidth, otherwise the stability of every-one's connection will be reduced.
(6) Remember that P&G has no 'Pit Speed Limiter' function, but our gentleman's agreement is that everyone will stick to a speed limit for the pit-lane of 40mph/60kph.

Clubmans & Tokens quick guide (see bottom for full details)

• All drivers get a Tokens budget for the season
• The faster the driver, the less Tokens they get
• The better the car, the higher it's Tokens cost is to use in a race
• If you do not attend a race, you will lose your average number of Tokens*
• Trust me, you do not want to run out of Tokens before the final race! :death:

Tokens 20 19 18 17 16 15 14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 0

Cars Available Porsche 906/8 GT40 Gulf Porsche 911 RSR 3L Porsche 906/6, GT40 mk II GT40 mk I, Porsche 911 IROC Porsche 914/6, Shelby Cobra 427 Roadster Ferrari 275 GTB Speciale Chevrolet Corvette L88 Coupe, Lotus Elan Shelby Daytona Coupe Shelby Cobra 289 Coupe (Willment), Corvette L88 Roadster Shelby Cobra 289 Coupe (not Willment), Shelby GT-350R CASC Shelby Cobra 289 Roadster, Ferrari 275 GTB/C, E Type Jag Lightweight 5 Speed, Corvette L72 Coupe Shelby GT350 SCCA, EType Jag Lightweight 4Speed, Falcon Weslakeheads, Mustang ATCC, Alfa Volumetrico E Type Jag Coupe, E Type Jag Roadster Ford Mustang Trans Am, Ford Falcon Mann, Chevrolet z06 Coupe Ferrari 250 C, Mustang NTK, Alpine 1300 Alfa Romeo GTA Corvette L76 Roadster, Lotus Cortina Works Abarth 1000TC Gr5, TR4 Lotus Elite, Ferrari 250 B, Mini Cooper 1275s Healey mk 2

Driver Ruskus Ayrton4_94 Paul968 Manteos Pippomox Lelero Madd-RIP Jos Verstappen Jose Arrogantio Pepz Ade API Minholos PR TrueTom IvAIAx Purdie Simon Gymer Blunder King icarus17 Mr_Oily PhSpok Psuedo Lazlow MJ SamB Mike Cook Andy Charman Dave Gymer Legzy Spanner Tim Robey JPV Geoffers Mcfids Tibernius Ross Picnic 57Goldtop Dave Shep BillThomas Wiltshire Tony OilSeal LigelC Lars Sch Jimmer Minton Burtoner

Tokens (for season) 46 46 49 49 49 53 53 56 56 60 60 60 60 63 63 63 67 67 67 67 67 70 70 70 70 70 74 74 77 77 77 77 81 81 81 81 84 84 84 88 88 91 91 95 95 98 98 53? 70?

Tokens Remaining 36 33 36 36 36 40 41 43 53 43 50 39 39 51 40 50 39 44 48 45 53 50 52 50 49 51 46 53 54 48 56 53 61 57 57 62 62 60 60 66 63 66 73 68 68 70 70 ? ?

Tokens Forecast (end of season) 3 0 1 1 1 2 3.5 3 13 0 7 -4 -3.5 6 -5 5 -8.5 -3.5 0.5 -2.5 5.5 0 2 0 -1 1 -6.5 0 1 -7 1 -2 3 -0.5 -0.5 4 2 0 0 3 0 1 8 0 0 0 0 ? ?

(Clubmans & Tokens Full Details guide to follow)


* = Your starting season Tokens budget divided by seven (races in the tokens season) = Your average number of Tokens (i.e. Legzy has 77 Tokens for the season, divide that by 7 & Legzy's average number of Tokens per race is 11. While Tony's average tokens per race is 13.)

After Cadwell Park and Birmingham this place seems awfully flat  ;D

Legzy, due to the success of the P&G series & a few of us not being able to race at Birmingham because of it. Do we need to be encouraging any new drivers at present?

Not being in this with my heart (only bored as not racing GTR2 every Tuesday anymore :( ), so there's one space free.  :)

Err, now what price should I set for my remaining tokens...  :whistling:

i do agree with that comment. Should we not unfortunately be shutting the door to any more newcomers for now? We are well over capacity and it only means preventing regulars from getting a race, as happened to a few last night. A tough call but ?....

Or better still, create two leagues running on different nights  ;) :)

Remaining tokens for all drivers after two events, have now been published above (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6711.msg116729#msg116729), complete with your token spending forecast :o.


Also, the weather has now been confirmed at:

aww these stingey token dish outs are making car choices really hard for the last 5 races. I want to use my fave car in at least one round (the RSR) but there are several great tracks left where i would like to have a decent motor to use...hmm, tough call. Its so hard to predict.

Cant we have a bigger splash out next time  :-\  i guess what i dont want to do is use my best car on a track when my other friendly rivals havent. Not much fun if your out on your own, though i guess our super fast Italian friends would up there to beat !

I wouldnt want to alienate them (or other fast drivers) through reducing their chances to drive good cars as well. They want to drive nice cars as well at some circuits, but looking at what the quick guys are allocated, it doesnt give you much scope to pick anything other than the slow cars  :-\

Still cant get into the Lobby.? ???

Have you got & installed this Dan?
You need to run that for GTR2 too.

Might be up for a bit of practice tonight (8:45pm+) if anyone fancies it?

ooh, would love to join in on that, will see if i can sneak away a little later on  ;)

Well, having tried out a couple of cars tonight.... I love the track & will be aiming at (dry) lap-times around the 2:31 area (2:34 so far)  ;D

p.s. We had three cars side by side going round the last bend... I reckon we could get 5/6 easy!  :drool:

"Variable (with "30% wet" start)"

Sorry Chris... just a question. That means race will start surely with some rain, or this is only a chance of a 30% of rain?
Sorry for this newbie question :(

P.S. In which car you've done this good 2.31?!? I'm still on 32 low with the L88 roadster... but I'll improve soon.. I hope... Another question is: you've some championship race on Tuesday or Wednesday this week?

Cu :)

....it means that the start will be at 30% wet (so fairly damp) & may (or may not) get wetter or dryer.
You can test the wet settings offline, by selecting 30% rain. But I'll switch the server to 30% in a few days also, once more people are used to the track.
Hope that clears it up for you, I sure other might have wondered too :)

Only done a 2:34 so far (not 31 yet!), but it feels nice to drive & I've decided I'm going to try to take a different car in each event 8)

There is an rFactor race (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6780.msg118161#msg118161) on Tuesday (but I'm not doing it).

I'm never going to get close to 2.31 in my choice of car, my best so far is 2.35  :wheelchair: in the 4spd lightweight Jag.  :(

only did a handful of laps so far in a F275, great track, the final corner is mega in an old car  8) Not really got any times to post yet as was purely familiarisation laps.

Took me about 10 mins to find my way out of the confusing pits !  :laugh: i'd recommend you guys to praccy offline and follow the ai cars out before race night if you dont want to get an instant DQ  :-X oddly the exit wasnt right or left but straight on across what looks like a dirt track  :P

Hope we arent going to see 20 of the same car again  ::)...hmm, let me guess, cheapest big engined yank job ?

I'd love to race something else, but because of the stupid token system, I simply can't drive anything interesting.

Actually one of the available yank jobs (that's not rude is it?) raced at Sebring so it would be right to see a whole field of them. Also IMHO the only real way of achieving "close racing" is to have single or even duo spec races.

Wrong. You are currently able to select any car from about 42 different models, while many of the cheaper models are far from dull to drive!

But we currently have more people wanting to take part & enjoy these events then are able to join & race. Maybe if you've already decided that this event will be rubbish, you can give it a wide birth & free up the space for somebody looking to enjoy it. My preference would be that you give tokens a chance, but I'll understand if you can't get past it. :(

So do I buddy & for starters, you can be assured that I will be in a lovely little Euro number  ;D ;D ;D

Daytona was a very fast track & so we saw tanks everywhere.
Birmingham was twisty to the extreme, so we saw very safe car choices.
While Sebring is fairly fast, I'm hoping it's more of a middle ground that we see some more variation  :-\

If not, I will be introducing some 'selection guidelines' for the following race(s).  :-X ;)

Yeah great, driving a completely uncompetitive car and getting blitzt away by everything else. Problem is, I can't take my favourit cars (Daytona, Cobra and big Vette) without being out of tokens with races to go  :death:

The only good racing has been due to same cars on the grid, which makes the tokens completely useless, as the GTL system of restricted car choice worked. So not surprised there are a lot of same cars, as that's the only way these tokens "work".
And as long as these token system stays, I'm not in PnG.

put your handbags away ladies, P&G has been pretty civilised upto now  :angel: (dang, where is a hippie smilie?  ;) )

LOL, no handbags required. Sadly I think Jeff has made the right decision for himself, it's just the rest of us that miss out on a chance to get close to him on track (other then being lapped in a flash ;)).
Hopefully next season, we'll be able to offer two P&G championships. A 'Clubmans' schedule & a more 'traditional' type schedule as we'll hopefully find more slots for P&G.  8) 8) 8)

BEWARE at turn 6/7 (straight after the Coke bridge), there is a shortcut right turn instead of the correct hairpin right 100yards further down the road. No cut track is given, but taking shortcuts on any lap (in any session) will be frowned upon. Everyone has to play the same rules. :)

Hi guys! On Wednesday we'll have a test race for Sebring with free car choice.

Qualifying session starts at 8.30 pm (UK timezone)

Race starts at 8.50 pm

All your members are welcome and as ever if You want to join with us, send me a pm for the password. Someone of You already know it, and it's not changed :).

Hope to see some of you on Wednesday. Cu :)


 

Nice one Manteos & I think there is a fair chance I can make it this time 8) I remember the password too.
I've done some more laps but am still stuck in the 34's disappointingly. Will that compare to other peoples laptimes?

My best with the L88 is a 32.2 but it's a difficult car, and I can have a pace near to 2.33-34 with full tank... but I use to do a lot of mistakes yet... I think that your laptime will surely compare with the other drivers!

will try and join you wednesday again Manteos  :)

jumping on now for a while if anyones about?

err, isnt that 'shortcut' 1st right, the correct racing line corner ? always was in the ALMS races. The 2nd turning further down is just for cars that missed their braking at first turning and took to the escape road, to then be able to rejoin the track.

No Mark. Following the AI they go right down to the RH Hairpin.

That's a shame, I've been practicing assuming the shortcut was the correct line. That means I'm even slower than I thought I was ::)

I remember to everybody that if your server is down, you can use VDA server for training if you want :)

Tomorrow no other people will join the training race? C'mon guys :)

Cu :)

blimey thats odd, ive never seen the further corner used in any racing ive seen there on the telly. Even if you take the 1st right in game you will see it has all the 'rubber-down' racing line on it.

oh well.

After unwisely following the alpine herd for the last race, I'm going to splash out some tokens on the Cobra 427. Managed a 2.31 in an offline race with about 80ltr of fuel and it's a load of fun to drive round Sebring - the last bend is a hoot  ;D

I want to excuse with Legzy and Jpv, but I forgot that Today is the birthday of a dear friend, and I can't drive this evening... I apologize with you guys especially for the delay of mine announcement...

Try to Forgive me for this time... It won't happen again!

However, probably some people will be in server for some training, and if there's a minimum number of drivers you can race quietly even without me.... Sorry again guys!

Cu at the next :)

The following cars will now cost more Tokens to drive at each race:
Chevrolet Corvette L88 Coupe = 12 13 Tokens
Lotus Elan = 12 13 Tokens
Corvette L88 Roadster = 9 11 Tokens
Corvette L72 Coupe = 8 9 Tokens

The following cars will now cost less Tokens to drive at each race:
Shelby Daytona Coupe = 13 12 Tokens


Management regrets that these changes are obviously necessary due to the current global credit crunch crisis & basic supply & demand economics. The new token charges take immediate effect, but do not impact races previously completed.
Thank you for your understanding & cooperation in these difficult times.

I totally disagree with this change... No chances for stronger drivers to be competitive for a victory in any race... Why should I race agains people that can easily win due to a car that have 5-10 second of pace better than mine? It's a non sense racing for me... Changing the rules during a champ it's not good if you force the stronger drivers to lose every race... That should be good for the weakest, but you don't need training to beat me with a Ferrari 275 speciale or a Cobra 427, agains a Jag E-Lightweight.... a car that i TOTALLY dislike... At least with the previous method there was more possibility for everyone to choose some different cars, now this chance are over... why I have to race losing 4 seconds for lap... that's not racing... watching cars that pass you everywhere it's not my racing spirit... I don't want to win every race... but I want only the chance to be competitive for a victory, like all the other drivers, and at the moment I have NO CHANCES to win in any circuit, with the average tokens I can spend... I should take my L88 for other 3 races, and then give up, because I've no desire to be beated without any chances of fighting on track.
I'm sincere as ever and that's my opinion, it's not enough changing the car value, without any restriction of choice for everybody... In that way Tokens system is only a big damage for the stronger drivers, and wouldn't obtain the purpose of a different car selection on the grid...

Is the sudden change due to further testing observations on the VDA server? I'm stuffed now as my average was up to just over 8 tokens per race (8.2 to be exact), I can drive my preferred car for this race but then have to take less than ideal cars for the last 4 races, I'm a bit miffed tbh.  :(
Back to the drawing board.

The L88 roadster was a late addition to the list and didn't get tested enough. It was clearly the car to have in the first race at Daytona and is clearly again a no brainer for sebring before the change (for those on a budget anyway). The system isn't meant to work that way. Are you both suggesting we keep the values when they are clearly wrong?

I think you are completely over exagerating the effect of the change. Even the slower drivers will generally have to spend more than their average to get a 427 or a 275 special. These are people who are many seconds a lap slower than you in the same car. I just don't see how you can say that you can't win races without the L88 but not have had a go at the system in the first place for forcing you into 1 car? Pretty much evry quick driver would have taken the L88 had we not changed, and this can't be right.

You won't be able to win every race in the series - the spread is bound to mean that you have more chance in some than others. You should though have a chance to have a good race and over the season compete for the title.

No, I was just under the impression that you guys had finally decided on the values per car before we started. I wasn't aware of any late additions that could muck up the results as I couldn't do the first race so i didn't turn a wheel there.

I agree with Manteos. Since the token system there has never been such a  huge spread of laptimes. The token system kinda rapes the mod, as good cars won't get used, so why have so many cars in the mod of we'll never see them.

Let's just go back to the good GTL system of limited car choices per track, that way all cars can be driven and people will fight with people who they normally fight with.

How much is a victory worth if you're only winning because you're in a much better car  :-\? I hope the answer is nothing, as it's just too easy and can't be rewarding, can it?

This is all a bit of an experiment, and a bit of tweaking was always a possibility. It is unfortunate to do this now, but the L88 roadster was just too far out to remain where it was. Since I had not driven it I should have given it a test before finalising the values, but time was short and I assumed it was like the L77 roadster - a lot slower than the coupe. Sorry for that  :(

I can't agree with you. You have done 2 races, and the first you didn't make it off the grid. In the second, all the poeple who finished ahead of you would normally be miles behind you, and all the people you normally fight against were in the same car as you. The system wasn't the problem, you being too fast was!  :P (and the fact that ayrton dicsoed).

Paul, the main question is that I can't take a "Serious" car to be competitive in the subsequent races. I don't like to be overtaken by a stronger car, and i will choose the car as the previous tokens strategy that Ayrton suggested to the "poor" VDA drivers. When my
tokens will be over, I'll take the Healey in the last race, and press the Esc button, or I'll do a single make against my VDA mate the last race... only to have fun with some car of the same level...
I like to be regular during a race... I dislike to make a strategy to be frequently in the high classement zone but with races that don't satisfy my "desire of fun"... The cars in 5-10 tokens zone will never be competitive with a 12-16 Tokens car... and that's nothing to do if you cut even the L88 roadster from the first zone... The L88 it's not a car for newbie if you want to drive it with manual clutch... You need a real good feeling with your gas pedal if you don't want to make a twisted race... It's the right car for the strongest people to fight agains some monsters like 275 Speciale, 427, L88 Coupe or some porsche etc... I can't make the Sebring race with a scandalous car like the Jag E- Type or a 9 tokens car like these: Shelby Cobra 289 Roadster, Ferrari 275 GTB/C, E Type Jag Lightweight 5 Speed, Corvette L72 Coupe... I don't want to be lapped every race... that just happened the previous race, and it's not funny, even if I was 6th in classification... I think that we're so far away from the previous method of racing, in which the strongest drivers has to sweat a lot to conquer a victory but had the same chances respect the others in every race.
That's racing! If i have to play with a strategic game, I'll play Risiko :)



 

Sorry Manteos, but that is just nonsense! As I said, those who can afford a 275 special will either be overspending their budget or won't be able to get as much from the car as you. I find it amazing that a seriously quick driver like you needs 557 HP to compete with much slower drivers in their 330 hp 'monsters'. Anyway, there are other options - the L72 is no slow coach and is the same price as the L88 was, and there are other yank tanks to choose from like the ATCC. Yes, you might not win if someone with a lot of tokens left takes a very quick car, but this isn't about winning races, its about getting the best finishes over 7 races. The idea of the tokens is to put you (and everyone else) about mid pack on average so expecting to compete for the win every race is unrealistic.

Paul... you know better than me that a car, especially in P&G, it's not valuable only by his HP, but you have to look at the chassis, brakes, and to a general stability that it's not the principal caracteristic of the L88 compared to a 275 Speciale...
Even the Ford GT 40 Gulf have less power than his sister Mk1, but I would never dream to say that the Mk1 it's faster in any circuit than its sister... isn't it?

What I find fundamentaly wrong with the token system is, is that it's all about fighting on paper. The championship needs to be close. I can't imagine anyone prefering that over fighting on the track, with cars that are competitive with eachother. A fast driver in a slow car will never the close to a slow driver in a fast car.

No, but on a power circuit like sebring, 557 hp goes a long long way! The proof of the pudding is in the eating though, and the fact is that everyone would have been in L88s next week had we not changed. This just gives drivers like yourself (and me) a chance to dominate races even against those who spend a lot more tokens than their budget allows, and this is frankly all wrong.

Just to stick in a couple of cents....hopefully you know I think you organising guys have done a cracking job since taking over both this and GTL, and I'm reluctant to be negative when you've put so much time in. Maximum respect for trying this system but I would also like the chance to race this mod in the same way we do with GTL.

I'm not asking you to abandon tokens as I'm not in the majority here from what I can tell, just to give the other format another go at some stage, particularly if this stands to replace GTL eventually. Slightly selfish but I have limited time and I find a small group of cars, and even single makes gives me a chance to drive everything, and is ideal for me to realistically pickup at the weekend, test and then choose something I'm going to enjoy racing during the week.

I too got quite excited when the general clubmans concept was introduced, I thought it could really mix it up, and we did have some fun races but given the choice, I'd rather a level playing field. Only my opinion but I'm happy for the leaders to sail off. I know I'll be mid grid at best in PnG, the standard is high but it means I need to work a lot harder to catch up and there's a lot of the appeal.

Again, I disagree [but then I would wouldn't I? - it was my idea  :)], and we have lots of evidence to show that fast drivers in slow cars can compete with slower ones in fast cars. Yes, with a wider range available in this format, we will get a bit more spread, but I don't think it will seperate drivers that much. You gain a lot in terms of keeping people at the same pace by giving slower drivers a bigger budget. You lose some of that by allowing a wide choice. Only time will tell which is a bigger factor. My money is on the former. If I'm wrong then I'm sure we will change, but someone else will have to do the work of finding similar cars for each track.

If you'll change the method I will be the first Tester to help you for that dirty work :).

Cu :)

Thx Manteos, I'm sure Chris and Tony would appreciate that a lot  :)

Going back to your previous posts though, I still feel that you are missing the point a bit. The clubmans series was set up to be 'fun' first and foremost, and it was unashamedly meant to give the slower drivers a chance to compete near the front for a change. You are very new to this scene, but many of us have been here for years and have raced the same people over and over again. I know pretty well where I am in the grand scheme of things, as do many of the others here, so a chance to mix things up adds an element of interest that would otherwise be missing. I don't need to be able to win to have a good race, and I don't think you do either. If a few people spend a lot and take the first few places, does that diminish a tough battle in the mid field if in the long run you still end up near the top of the table? I enjoyed the scrap in the alpine even though I was mid-field at best (although I forgot to stop the pit crew spending over a minute mending damage which cost 5 places  ::)) as I knew the elan boys were over spending. There is a car type for everyone that is roughly within budget, so just pick one and race it. Don't worry so much about winning, just enjoy the racing  :)    

I like the clubmans concept for exactly the reasons stated above. I also believe that a conventional championship on the lines of GTL (limited car choice per event) would also be very successful. Given the popularity of this mod, would it be worth exploring the appetite for running both options?

As mentioned previously, that would certainly be where Tony & I would like to see Season Two heading. More P&G slots, allowing for both a clubmans & traditional style league 8).
When that is the case, the individuals that have a problem with the current system, should hopefully be less frustrated.

Happy racing  :)

I don't have missed the point Paul, I know that clubmans is a good way to mix the real values and to let even the slower drivers fight for first places, but if it means that the an alien driver, as I consider Ruskus or Ayrton, has to be lapped, we are far away from the other point of promoting close racing. This method without any restrictions simply change the values in field at all, and I don't think that someone would be pretty happy to give a lap to an alien due to his forced car choose for a strategy that let the faster drivers only a chance to compete for a good placement.
Previous Clubmans method helped to have some close racing, to make an example, I watched the table of Mosport's race, the first unlapped driver was Legzy (17th Position), in qualifying session, the max gap was 4 secs, but most uf us were into 2 secs by pole. Limerock was an amazing race, and the first lapped driver was in 14th position, with 13 cars in 1 min of max delay. In Laguna Seca it was the 15th the first to be lapped, only at Interlagos me and lele chosen a wrong car, but we trained more than 300 laps I guess for that race... things that won't happen again, because are now starting some Italian champs, and we won't have the same time as this summer to train... In Barber the distance in terms of laptimes was between at least 3.5 to 8 seconds... with Tony and Jose Arrogantio respectively at 10 and 13 secs... That's a 2 groups racing, and I think that most of us would like more a close racing than racing alone all the time...
Evenmore, I dislike to drive a forced car for every circuit, an Alpine for the twisted one, and the L88 for the medium-fast tracks, and that method don't let me enjoy a lot because I miss a lot some old fighting with you or Ade like in Lime rock (Elite vs Mustang like the giant vs the ant :)), and Laguna Seca (Elan vs L88). Even if I rembeber that I touched both of you, and I still regret :(, that was a fun Clubman race formula, with a big variety of cars, unfortunately til now the Tokens one didn't demonstrate the same skill, only in my judgement.
Anyway it's not a trouble to see what happens in Sebring, and I'll race for fun as ever, but I think I'm gonna take the L88 again, because for me it's a funny car on that track... Then because of my overspending, I'll have to take another 2 times the alpine, and the circle restarts :(.
I always appreciated your work guys, and I tell you this things always sincerly to improve this Clubman formula, that however had a great success watching to the attendance of every race.
We could make a poll after Sebring: "Do you enjoy more Tokens, Classic clubman, or your GTL actual method?". It could be an option, isnt' it?
Cu :)

You are arguing against yourself here  :D The only reason to change the values was to avoid the situation you say you don't want - being forced into a car! If we allow cars to be better than their token value suggests then you get exactly that, a race where everyone chooses that car. It is no coincidence that of the 5 cars changed, 3 are mentioned in your para above, and the other 2 are derivatives.

Top drivers are only going to get lapped when you get odd situations as we had at Barber - a track which rewarded small nippy cars and hurt the rest, and token values that made them relatively cheap. Anyone who took an Alpine must have known they were not likely to win, but could hope for a good midfield finish for a low spend. Those who took the elan could expect to be up the front but at a cost for future races.

could we start getting some laptimes up on the table please gents to give everyone a good idea of where they are at in their car choices. Obviously some may want to play a poker hand to hide their true pace but am sure most want to know they can race the best majority of cars on track with their chosen steed.  :)
I am still flicking between 3 cars at present with wildly varying laptimes  :P

in the wet i am running 2:44 in the 289 roadster, 2:36 in the F275-spez. Dry times i am 2:36 in the L88 coupe, 2:37 in the normal F275 so far but really havent had a proper praccy session, just a handful of laps here and there.

Having supported the PnG races from the beginning (yes usually from the last place on the grid) I do not recall that we had all the negative comments when SBG first put forward the clubmans concept.  Just seems to me that everyone was there for 'fun' and most of us enjoyed it.  No one appeared to be overly concerned that their ego would be dented if they didn't win - and lets be honest one or two of us who turned up regularly (me especially) will more than likely not win a race until "hell freezes over"

So maybe those who appear so dissatisfied should ask themselves 'what is really important to them' and take the appropriate action.

Although I am unable to join in a the present I am hopeful to return before the season ends and renew my battles with Tony to see who will come last.

Meanwhile, for goodness sake give Legzy and Tony a chance to consider your thoughts and put forward their ideas without all the reems of negative comments they are seeing

Laurie

My times also vary Mark, my dry times, in practice sessions, are  from a high 2.32 n the L72, a mid 2.35 in the 4 speed lightweight Jag, high 2.29 in the L88 Coupe and a mid 2.38 in the ATCC Mustang, most of my times are around the 2.39 mark in the lower group cars.

My L88 time was just out of curiosity as it needs too many tokens for me to race and not end up with poo cars in the remaining races! :)

Hope the times help.

That's a corking time in the L72! You sure you didn't take the shortcut across the hairpin on that lap?!  :laugh:

If only! :D I must admit it would be my prefferred car but I also enjoy the Jag, light cars are always so nice to drive.
What time have you done,much quicker no doubt? ;)

No, not at all! The L72 I was doing 34s at best, but the other cars I was around your times. Not done a great deal of practice so far, so probably more to find. Time is precious atm tho, so I'm not expecting much on Tuesday.

Just checked my career blt, (to make surry my memory was right) and tes I've just squeeked into the 32's, and may be able to get a few more tenths, a big maybe, in the slightly grippier quali session.

The L88's will destroy all competition though, they are beasts! my 2.29 was only using a quick setup and about 10-15 laps of praccy in it

Just a few words: I totally agree with Paul...full stop!


 

...and Legzy and Tony...thank you both for your hard and good work with P&G and GTL!

 :o I've just noticed a possible issue with the ATCC Mustangs, the Total version has way more hosepwer than the other two, 405 versus 340 (Jane) and 322 (Neptune), are these cars going to be re-assessed also?  :'(

The assumption is you will use the high powered one.

Moi!  :D oh no sir not me.... :P high 2.34 for that one btw.

Work commitments mean I won't be attending this one.

L72 Coupe is a bit naughty in the wet! Best time so far at 30% weather and in praccy sessions is a high 2.36, its a case of softly, softly, creepy monkey!  :D

I was contemplating doing this, but having wasted 20 minutes trying to work out how to get out the pits, and then finding out I was driving the wrong layout (no cut warning if you take the modern hairpin! - thanks Ade) I think I'll leave the place to somebody who wants it more than me.

Somebody might want to update the race announcement to save embarrassment for anyone about to make the same mistakes...

Just realised I can't make this one!  :'( :'(

Have fun guys  :'( :'( :'(

Just to repeat:


It has also been added to the race announcement (which I thought I'd already done :-[)

Don't know if I'll be able to do this one :(... If I'll return to home in time I'll surely race... Otherwise guys... have fun :)

Oh my, That was a good one! Was slow to get going as, I think King? was late starting, so got mugged down to T1
a few went wide or maybe fell off within the next couple of laps, and had some really nice tussles with various
people, twice it was dueling 'Vettes, three ina line . granted mostly with me the third in the line
Last few laps were King, Me, Paul. King kept making mistakes to let me catch up, very generous that I thought
Paul was mostly catching me, and had occasionally to throw his car sideways to avoid my slower corner exits
Nontheless was a huge grin for most of the race  8)

Grat to Pody, and to MADD for falling off, then working his was back up to 3rd.

that was a corker but could have been so much better for me.

Qual went as well as could be expected. All the BHP giants stole the top half of the grid as expected and with my final lap of the session i moved up 3 places to be fastest of the slower cars  ;) Then found out i had done whole qually sesh with 45mins race fuel onboard  ::) :laugh:

Race start was brilliant, got a great jump on several ponderous yank cars off the line and then got past several more as they slid about in the wet through the next few corners. Those wet kerbs were treacherous !
Got right upto 6th for first 3 or 4 laps but knew the US beasts would reel me in with their bhp advantage eventually.

King started monstering my mirrors with his beast and i then committed the time old mistake of giving it too much gas out of a tight corner and oversteered straight into the armco, damaging my suspension and losing about 5 places or more  :wetfish: Was gutted after all that hard work as hadnt put a wheel wrong in the rain up until then :'(  Worse thing was i then ran wide with the wonky wheels at next corner onto one of those tarmac runway run-offs and as i rejoined at more pace than normally able, i got clouted very strongly by andys Cobra. :( I can only assume i had pulled out in front of him and if thats the case please report me to the mods. I saw a couple of cars spin in the mayhem  :-[

Now i was down in about 17th? and it was a long lonely drive trying to play catch up, enjoying a good scrap with API along the way.

I was taking chunks of time out of Lazlow and Goldtop in front in the same cars and caught Goldtop for a great scrap for final two laps. I got past him up the inside in that fantastic last corner with a smooth ferrari broadside slide..yeehaw ! 8)

I am still totally undecided about this token system. Once again we seemed to have a race of two halves of cars though at least this time there was a nice mixed grid. :)

Strange smaller grid tonight...only 19 ? bit odd after the last few scrums to get in.  ???

Congrats to lele (dont know why he didnt take a slower car and still whup us all ??? ) and Legzy in his beefed up fezza  ;)   8)

Disappointing race for me, but I knew I was going to struggle with a lack of practice so played it safe and took a Shelby Cobra coupe to save a few more tokens.

The first few laps were great fun, battling with the mid pack Fezzas and Corvettes ;D but then span a couple of times when the rain came down harder, & stuffing it into the barriers a few times didn't help.  >:(

This put me right at the back and most of the last few laps were pretty lonely but I finally caught API just before the end to finish in 16th spot.

I'm glad I got lapped, otherwise I would have run out of fuel. I was caught out by the dry laps at the end  ::)

Took the slower fezza as I thought it would be a safe bet in the rain. Quali'd near the back but had a great start and ended up 8th/9th by lap 2. I was soon caught by the yankers as they got into their stride and I settled in 12th.

Had nice fezza wars with Lazlow and MJ but ultimately succumbed to their superior skills/experience. I was particularly gutted when MJ drove past me in the last corner to put me down to 14th  :wetfish:

Still, a frugal night for me as far as tokens spent/points gained and a very enjoyable race.

As Paul predicted, the L88's were uncatchable on the straights and to be fair I had a hard time getting past his L76 and even some of the Fezza's and GT350's even on the straights,

Got tapped at the start after catching a slide which sent me to last and then got squeezed  >:( on the grass later on after going as far right as I could and had to avoid contact by not braking for the corner to get in front of a car beginning to turn in to the corner, thus sending me to last again (I await the replay).

And that was it the red mist came down and I was really peed off by that point, so just drove like a man posessed, clawing my way back to an eventual 3rd place, which if I'm honest was about as high as I could have got even without my issues.

Grats to Lele and Legzy, if only I'd had the tokens I would have taken some seriously fast machinery, but then on the flipside I wouldn't have had such great scraps during the race (Matt,Pribeiro and McFids spring to mind.)

Swings and roundabouts I suppose.

Good fun!

I took the Shelby Roadster to save tokens and still hopefully be competitive. It wasn't. Not with me at the wheel anyway :P

Qualified 19th and last.

Made a good start in the wet and by lap 1 I was up to 11th as I picked my way through the spins.
Got passed by a couple of quicker cars and had a couple more in my mirror but was enjoying the racing.
Then I hit Mark Jonzo hard as he rejoined the track. It was not a good rejoin Mark and I think you should have waited for us to go by, but no hard feelings, one of those things.

This detached me from the pack. Managed to catch and pass API and Tim Robey but after that I just lapped on my own. Still enjoyed driving the car, this mod puts a big smile on my face.
I will just have to go for a quicker car next time!
 

Sorry for the delay in posting these.

Replay and provisional results posted

LapChart (http://www.granum.plus.com/20090922%20P1T/index.html)

The Shelby GT350 is great to drive on a wet track. While the conditions were constantly raining,
I managed to stick in 3rd place and managed to pull away from the drivers behind me. By then I was
gaining almost 2 seconds a lap, despite losing time for the top 2.
Then, on 3rd or 4th lap, I distracted myself  ::) with the XD hud readind the temperatures on the
long fast right just before the hairpin and lost it to the grass, hiting the wall.
Fortunately I had a 10 seconds gap for 4th place and kept the 3rd.
Only that, after the silly incident my car was oversteering maddly to the right and understeering maddly
to the left, and locking the rear wheels while braking.  :o
More, while raining, I managed to be competitive with the Shelby Cobra and the Corvettes.
But when the rain stops I couldn't hold anymore the more straight top speed from them.
Anyway, I enjoyed the race and the scrapps with Madd, Geoffers and Pepz.
Congrats to podium, specially to that light Fezza and the pilot top driving.  :)

Cheers

Really impressed with the car choice spread chaps  :).
Six different cars in the top six!
Thirteen different cars across the nineteen driver field!
I guess the downside of the varied field was that we were a bit more spread out then ideal :-\. We can't win! :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:


Well luckily I loved driving the F275 Speciales, loved the track & had the occasional crack of thunder to keep me on my toes... so I very much enjoyed it.

Was gutted when Madd seemed to lose it at about T3 on lap one, I think we would have been pretty close all the way. Not sure what happened, by the sound of it somebody must have clipped his back end? I was up the inside line & didn't see it happen :(

That was it really, made a good start... watched Lele (who like me, had also spent a few extra tokens here) disappear slowly ahead & PR disappear slowly behind. Just sat back & enjoyed the driving experience 8).

Tokens remaining table after last nights Sebring race:

Driver Ruskus Ayrton4_94 Paul968 Manteos Pippomox Lelero Madd-RIP Jos Verstappen Jose Arrogantio Pepz Ade API Minholos PR TrueTom IvAIAx Purdie Simon Gymer Blunder King icarus17 Mr_Oily PhSpok Psuedo Lazlow MJ SamB Mike Cook Andy Charman Dave Gymer Legzy Spanner Tim Robey JPV Geoffers Mcfids Tibernius Ross Picnic 57Goldtop Dave Shep BillThomas Wiltshire Tony OilSeal LigelC Lars Sch Jimmer Minton Burtoner

Tokens (for season) 46 46 49 49 49 53 53 56 56 60 60 60 60 63 63 63 67 67 67 67 67 70 70 70 70 70 74 74 77 77 77 77 81 81 81 81 84 84 84 88 88 91 91 95 95 98 98 53? 70?

Tokens Remaining 29 26 30 29 29 29 32 35 45 31 42 36 31 41 31 41 30 35 39 34 44 40 43 40 40 42 36 42 48 37 42 42 51 54 44 47 51 48 48 57 50 53 60 54 54 56 56 ? ?

Tokens Forecast (end of season) 3 0 2 1 1 -1.5 2 3 13 -3.5 7.5 1.5 -3.5 5 -5 5 -8.5 -3.5 0.5 -4 5.5 0 3 0 0 2 -6.5 0 4 -7 -2 -2 4.5 8 -2 0.5 3 0 0 6.5 0 1 8 0 0 0 0 ? ?

Mr Arrogantio, Tony & Ade being the biggest Token hoarders... anticipate them splashing out in the races to come :o
While Purdie, Dave & Sam are currently the leading shopaholics ;)

Great fun in the L88, & nearly managed a podium.

I got a terrible start & got passed by a few cars until the Vette got up to speed & clawed a couple of places back. Collided with King at T2 when he cut across my nose & then went mowing on lap 2. After that I started to move up the field with a little help from my straight line speed advantage.

Had some good racing with PR & Pepz but eventually got clear in 3rd place. Pepz was not far behind until the final lap when we caught a couple of backmarkers. One took to the grass & we caught the other at the esses near the end of the lap. I had to slow a bit more than normal, which caught Pepz out & we had a 'moment'. Finally came in 5th!

Congrats to Lele, Legzy & Madd. :thumbup2:

Seems that the new "toll" for the L88s was more appropriate watching the race report  :), and that Paul & Legzy were right! Good to see such a great variety of different cars in the first places, and the cars between 3rd and 6th position finished in 3 seconds! Must have been a great fight! Grats to Lele, Legzy and Madd (due to a great comeback!), and to all finishers! I see a good battle for the championship, and I'm happy that lele is the actual leader, but the road is still so long... First positions are so close with this new scoring system. That makes things even more interesting for the next races!

Unfortunately I had to jump this, but I hope to be here for the next in Edmonton!

Cu :)

   
Hello to all yesterday I enjoyed pretty good duels and pilots all correct, then the rain made it even more fun to the race, I struggled with the Corvette L x 88 used the first time only yesterday, but a lot of fun and hello to the next
King :laugh:

   
Hello everyone, great game yesterday even though there were 3 riders strong, we brought the VDA in the standings more 'forward as possible. Tokens are now very few sell dear but our position .. hello

Yesterday the race was very funny, difficult and aggressive ;D ;D...the start was very difficult for the rain in fact i find me in 14th position due the to cold tyres temperature. >:( After 10 laps i have conquered the 5 position...but in the final part of the race I come back close to Geoffers, and in the first corner of the chicane in the 3rd sector I tapped him, waiting for let him by, but another guy touched Geoffres again, and I decided to go.
The result was a 4th place, and I want to excuse  with Geoffers for the tap.
sorry Geoffers  :( >:(

Put a report in Andy, i deserve it. Really dont know why but i just didnt think and rejoined the track normally from the concrete run-off. I think that because i was surrounded by loud US engines upto that point and then heard nothing, my brain told me it was clear track at that point. Felt very bad when i saw you spinning behind me.  :-[

A blot on my copybook. Otherwise a good fun race, the Fezza was great fun to drive around Sebring, just outgunned horsepower wise. Perhaps the only way to close the pack up is using similar output cars but i prefer the wide spread of great cars we saw on track in the clubmens rounds. Tough one to call. :-\

Thought I'd just make sure you're all aware that there is a strong chance of a Fun P&G race tomorrow night (Thursday) at Barcelona:

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=6815.msg119037#msg119037

I took the safe option of the Z06, which was not too slow but still quite cheap. Qual was OK, but off the line Geoffers had a shocker, which completely bottled me up and lost me umpteen places into T1  :( Round T1 I was starting to get the odd place back, but at T2 a rather poor rejoin ahead caught Ade out and we both ended up in the barrier  >:( Now at the back of the field I started to chase down the cars ahead, and was soon gaining places as others fell off or made small mistakes. I spent a lot of the race fighting with first Pepz and then King, and especially Matt Rowe, who was very closely matched in his L72. We passed and repassed, and as the last lap started I was closing in, but I got a bit greedy at the corner onto the back straight and spun. Not a problem though, as the gap was 20 secs back to Tibs, so I ended up 9th. Hopefully the tokens saved will repay me with a better result later in the season.

Congrats to the boys up front, esp Madd for his storming drive back through the field  :thumbup1: Just shows that you didn't need an L88 for a good finish!

Made a big balls up of the race by selecting the wrong tyres - I thought the R106's were good for the wet, which after trying them are definitely not. This after qualifying in 2nd and splashing out on a 427  :'( I can appreciate them modeling the real tyres but there is something to be said about keeping it simple with just the generic types: soft, medium, hard, etc.

It was, however, good fun racing Madd as he and I were fighting our way back through the field as we both fell off the road earlier. But my tyres were pretty useless by this point and I pitted to put on proper wets. That was more like it but I was a lap down and a hinderence to other drivers whom I was trying to unlap so I called it a night.

Great track and weather combo!!

Thanks Paul, it was hard work but very enjoyable, 15 overtakes isn't too shabby, L88's for babies imo  :P , and in relation to my rather annoyed post yesterday the driving that caused my 2nd off was quite forceful but not as bad as I initially felt, and I was unlucky to be tagged after catching a slide in the beginning, but there's no point making a song and dance about it, a racing incident imo.

And tbh I could only have got 1 place further on the podium at a push to pip Legzy but it was not to be.

Roll on the next one........hmmm car choice?

just a thought, and excuse me if its been thought of already recently, but why dont we allocate points to 'groups' of cars so that regardless of tokens used, people are still earning points towards their respective FIA groups that the cars belong too...ie Grp 2, grp 4 etc.
 That might encourage more to take slower cars rather than automatically going for the faster models. It might have helped at tracks like this one or other quick circuits.  :-\
Would that work?

Not sure how this would have made any difference Mark. All the cars bar 2 were from one group, and one of the 2 exceptions ended up at the back!

This was more about choosing the right car than people seem to realise. You and several others took cars which didn't excel at Sebring, where power was at a premium. There were several good options for the same token value that others took (Madd used only 9 & I used 6), so I don't really understand the complaint that tokens were to blame for the larger than normal race spread.

I think that some people (me ;)) might be grateful if you could offer any tips on that sort of thing at future races Paul. I didn't really twig that Sebring was such a power circuit till quite late on. Luckily I'd already stumbled over the 'Specials' which was a lovely drive. But I'd appreciate any suggestions at the next couple of races... if you'd be happy to of course?
Others may or may not appreciate too 8)

Well, it is a complex subject, but there are some easy ways to get a feel for the cars which work at a certain track. The simplest is just to set up an offline race with the AI running the cars and see which cars come out best. It isn't aways accurate (best to run a few to get the full picture) but you can very quickly get the picture if certain cars are likely to dominate.

Failing that you can always look at the circuit characteristics and make a judgement.

If a track has lots of long straights then you need power. Otherwise you are a lot slower on those straights because drag at high speeds is more important than weight. You also want good aero to reach the highest speeds.

If the track has few straights then cornering ability is more important. This means light weight, good tyres and balanced handling are the things to have.

Most circuits have a mix though, so you then need to look at the proportions of straights to corners. Perhaps more important though is to look at the types of corner. If they are mostly tight then the powerful but heavy cars will suffer less, as they will gain more accelerating than they will lose turning. long, high speed corners are different though, as the heavy cars will have to lose more speed on the way through, and will probably not get it back on the next straight.

So, to summarise

mostly long straights - high power, good aero
mostly tight corners - light weight + good power
mostly quicker corners - light weight, good handling
mixture - make your choice based on the ratios of power, weight, straights, tight corners and fast corners

ah, your probably right. Just wonder if it was more of a 'mindset thing' though and that people automatically go for the faster powerful cars as that will give them more bags full of points :-\ whereas if they could also score good points in a slower car, the variations in car choice might be more abundant ?
I'm sure i am just complicating things further so ignore me...i'll go back to my beer  ;)