SimRacing.org.uk

The catalyst for this post was the very high number of incidents at the Brands Hatch Indy race but the general comments apply to most races, they could all be cleaner.

We're half way through the season and we still seem to be getting far too many incidents, far too many instances of cars leaving the track, cars making contact etc.

The following shouldn't be news to anyone I think it's worth repeating and we'd like all drivers to follow the SRouk guidelines;

1. Please come to the race with an adequate amount of preparation / practice. Without that it's very easy to ruin someone else's race. The Skip Barber is a very tricky car to drive and it is very easy to damage so should be treated as such. Practice sessions are available the day before and prior to the races to get experience running in traffic, sharing set-up's, watching faster drivers etc.

2. If a driver is involved in an incident involving another car during the race, they should report it by using the report form (found at the bottom of each event's page). If incidents are not reported it is very difficult to improve standards.

3. When joining from the pits or re-joining the track after leaving the normal racing line, please do it safely and considerately. Using the F3 display should help to make the decision whether it's safe to join the track.

4. If you are being lapped, please act appropriately, it is the responsibility of the car lapping to make the pass safely but the lapped car has an important role to play and a driver who is about to be lapped should not unreasonably hold up the faster competitor.

5. In qualifying sessions, don't race another car if your lap is spoiled or you are on an out-lap.

6. Practice session should be treated no differently to qualifying or race sessions. Normal levels of courtesy, sportmanship and gentlemanly behaviour are demanded. However, these sessions are designed for drivers to improve their skills and inevitably this may result in incidents and appropriate leeway will be given. Mistakes happen, especially when you are trying to find the limit. Blatant or deliberate trangression of the rules is protestable however.

I don't know if there is any plans to change things mid-season but I think we could do with some changes to assist.

Firstly the reset has to go in my opinion and drivers must park dangerously damaged cars.

Track choice should favour larger tracks at the moment. It's probably safer to have a big track and keep as much of the field apart for as long as possible.

It's clear guys are turning up with no practice. I still believe our race on a Tuesday should be the track from the previous iRacing week which would allow guys to get real race action in

I agree, but I'm happy to see out S2 as it is.

I agree on the resets. I think they are hindering much more than helping.

We saw in iRacing that the races immediately became cleaner when the resets were removed at the higher licences, I think, even if it's subconsciously, people do drive differently knowing there's that safety net. Secondly, because of the non-fast nature of the "fast" tow ;) the quicker guys end up way down the field and mixing it with slower drivers which can lead to mistakes.

Drivers should indeed park dangerously damaged cars, if someone is clearly off the pace and struggling this is protestable and would be looked at quite harshly I expect.

I have to shoulder the blame for the track choice this week, it wasn't a great choice in retrospect and was probbaly only going to result in problems.

I tried to match the tracks to the official series as far as I could this season but as I took the decision not to use Lime Rock or Summit (because those races weren't great last year either!) it wasn't that easy. I will most certainly use what we've learned from this season when I schedule S3.

I don't know that I have an issue with the resets - a fast tow is anything but fast - but comparing it to the pit stops in GTR2 when damage was being repaired it's probably faster on balance.  Until some sort of damage repair is implememnted in iR I would like to see one reset left in.


100% - a badly damaged car would be black flagged in real life, and continuing to hobble round in a very badly damaged car shows more disrespect to other drivers than it shows commitment to finish the race.

It would be good to follow the iR schedule to a certain extent - there's a good bit of variety in the Skippy schedule these days, and being a relatively low level series on iR I don't think that it's unreasonable for people racing with iR (even if only in private leagues) to own all the tracks the Skippy would be running.


Noooo - I had an absolute blast driving it - yes a number of incidents occuring was foreseeable, but on current form aren't they always?  I really enjoyed the car/track combo and would really like to race it again.

Well, no, we've had a lot less incidents on the longer tracks.

I was just reiterating your comment about having more incidents than we should - I know the corner count is about the same so there's no reason the IP should have been higher at Brands.

I think the greatest difference is the fragility of iR cars. GTR2 cars can take some beating and you  can drive them even damaged - much more so than iR cars.
Tow is a joke and I would rather use TOW instead to punish some silly moves by some drivers. :P

Sorry TT I'm not sure what you are saying?

Are you saying you'd rather see the tow removed?

Personally I think having 1 tow/fix allowed would be a good balance (is that what we have now?).

Not allowing any wouldn't be the end of the world, but I personally would feel very bad if I screwed up and unintentionally caused damage to someone else and they had no way of continuing through no fault of their own.

I've reversed my position on allowing multiple tow/fixes now having had a bit more experience of iRacing.

Completely agree that continuing with a badly damaged car should be a very big no no.

Cheers, Ross.

Simply that I don't see any use of actualy using the tow, unless you stay in the race for the sole joy of driving. ;)
Reason?
Short laps: using the tow gets you at least one lap behind leaders. Anyone faster comes behind you, you gotta let him pass (1 lap behind) and you lose more and more. Joy of driving gets kind of stale. :P
Long laps: tow gets you even further behind, two or three laps. You might get back to driving against somebody if you catch the group that is marginaly slower.
Generaly a long lap track offers back more, even if you don't race against others (like Road America in the Skip) but I'm not comming here for hotlapping.

Keep or ditch the tow - I'm simply saying I'm not using it. :) 

For me the race went better than I hoped, I too thought it was a great place to race and it was amazing how many people were on a similar pace. I'd like to race here again.

On the tow, I'm ambivalent either way, 1 strikes a good balance.

Gary

Yeah, on the track side of things I have to say that I really enjoy the short tracks as well simply because there's always something going on.  Nothing worse than a mid-pack 20 lap drive around on your own.

Cheers, Ross.

I think we should have just one reset, it isnt much to ask for. I think also we or I do tend to race more harder and more faster because we dont have to worry about SR and IR.

Maybe we should implement divisions?

You tend to race less carefully in UKiR races? I did wonder if others thought the same. If so, that dissapoints me as the only reason I've got iR is to race it here only to find its low priority stuff for others. If thats the case, standards which I've not really been impressed with aren't gonna get a lot better? :'(

I'm pretty disappointed by that comment Rob, seems that type of attitude might be at the root of some of the problems we've been having.

Hmm, I wouldnt say less carefully, races are more competitive, in leagues than official races based on irating, with no SR/iR it is off your back bit. People like Brian Kerr are like good 5-6 secs faster, which is not a problem its just like I feel I have to push even harder to get a good result, which is more out of your "safety zone" and may cause incidents.

How can "being out of your safety zone" which "may cause incidents" possibly be "no less careful"?

Look at your results and incident count Rob. If you're having to push harder, it certainly isn't getting you good results.

Sorry to single you out here but I want people to start treating this a little more seriously seriously so we can all enjoy the racing to it's full potential in iRacing.

I also find some of the comments above very worrying.  Attitudes like this certainly explain the problems we are currently seeing on the track.

Just because there is no SR or iRating points at risk doesn't mean drivers have the right to take more risks...  This is not a game of AI drivers.  You are racing real people; who have taken time out of their busy lives to be on the track.  If you hit another car, chances are you have ruined their race and maybe even their whole season...

I personally pride myself on my safety.  I will never race without practise beforehand.  I will never make a move unless I'm certain it is safe to do so..  If someone happens to lose control in front of me I would rather bin my own car to avoid contact...

I used to think SRouk was a place I could find like minded people...  After recent races I'm not sure now. :(

Without wishing to fan the flames too much, I must admit I have been surprised at how discrete the moderation for iR events has been.  Back in my GPL days, races were picked over with a fine tooth comb and virtually every incident was analysed and feedback given to those involved.  This often resulted in penalties for infringements and a deeper understanding of the standards required was the result.

Of course this was very time consuming and required a huge amount of dedication from the mods.

I don't wish to denigrate the role of the mods here, as I think the work that goes on behind the scenes to make UKiR a possibility is fantastic and very much appreciated.  However, the ramifications for poor driving are not as harsh as they perhaps should be. 

Nail on head hit! This sums the whole point of why having no resets will automatically make the whole standards instantly better. Re-Read what you said and reverse it. Presently if you screw up now its not as bad because that person has a reset. Fine by itself but it doesnt necessarily encourage you to drive safer because both yourself and the person's race you have ruined have a second chance. Take away that second chance and its more likely you will drive safer knowing the consequences for both yourself and more importantly the victim and there is a good chance the incident wont happen in the first place.

I dont mean you Ross literally by the way this applies to all of us.

Well, I'm easy either way as I'm all for cleaner racing and personally speaking I'm always aiming for as clean a race as possible myself - certainly in terms of avoiding car to car contact.

Cheers, Ross.

Normally I like the idea of a reset because online racing is always more messy than the real thing and it only takes one person to spoil it for several others. The tow takes such a long time that it isn't a great help a lot of the time. For that reason I'm bothered whether it stays or goes.

Perhaps the top 3 inc point scorers should be the ones to pay for the next week's practice & hosting? ;)

...or maybe a cash fine is levied and collected at the end of the season that goes towards hosting costs?

...or the next season's hosting costs are split proportionally based on previous season's incident points?

Obviously hard to enforce though I guess.

My thoughts on this are that it could be an attitude problem :( People might be being far too aggressive.
I always race with the mindset that it's a real race, I don't want to crash hit anybody or end up in the wall, so I try drive with that in mind all the time.
Take away the saftey curtain of the reset, it's race over anyway if you have to reset.

A lot of the errors I'm seeing are down to lack of control which can catch anybody out, but often most mistakes are coming from the guys who join the server late.

It may be an assumption but that appears to be lack of practice.

Not flaming anyone and not wanting to start arguements so need to defend youself, but over the last couple of races at Brands in the Indy car and Skip I've found myself at the centre of incidents.

One was purely a slight error that caused the car ahead to spin and there just was no space for me to pass without contact.

The next was a driver who lost control and still kept his foot in and travelled across the track.

The last a driver was caught up in an accident which was not his fault. He had to reset and to do it as quickly as possible he stopped as soon as he could forgetting he was over a blind summit.

Guys seem to have completely forgotten simple things such as rejoining safely after an off.

I fully understand iRacing cars are harder to drive than the likes of GTR2 but I fail to see how that has changed the driving attitudes on track as it has.

Simple basic things now seem to have been forgotten.

Well said Brian. My feelings exactly, hence the reminders at the top of this post.

Can I remind everyone that driving close to 100% for 40 mins is a very, very difficult task in these cars, I'd venture to say that there's only a handful of drivers here who are capable of doing that.

Sometimes slower IS quicker, especially when you don't fall off.

There's absolutely no way I should be finishing top 10 in these races, I'm usually around 20th quickest in laptimes, but I seem to be managing it. With very few incidents too, maybe there's a link there.... ;)

I'd be loath to see the short tracks dropped completely. As someone else commented, they are a "busier" experience and I think they suit the Skip better than droning round somewhere like Silverstone. And the tracks aren't the real root of the problem.

I do think removal of the tow/reset will be the answer in the long term. I'd like to think my record is pretty decent on average (no incidents at all in the last race that has prompted all this discussion), but I have been known to make the odd howler (sorry Pete/Brendan). But if there was no reset I'm sure my subconcious control would not have let me get in to those situations, which were both as a result of running too close behind another car.

Divisions won't help - you'll be racing exactly the same people you're racing now.

The serial overdrivers - and I certainly count you amongst them, Robert - need to learn how to read the subtle clues that they're beginning to overdrive and back off a little. Missed apexes, locked brakes, little slides under power - that sort of thing. If you ignore the signs and just keep pushing it's a matter of when - not if - you crash, and then it's a matter of luck as to whether you take anybody else with you.

Is there anyway we can attach setups to our posts on here?

Just to make things really easy I think it would be helpful to have a selection of setups at hand.

Although I don't think setups in the Skip will help drastically but in cars like the Dallara you can tune the car to drive nice or right on the edge.

Also can we have some method of posting videos of laps etc?

I actually hate posting videos to be judged and trying to give advice to other drivers on how to drive but I would like to help.

I'm pretty sure we all have different driving styles and from what I read I'm one of the very few drivers that drives the Skip using right foot braking only.

My target is to see things progress here and will do what I can to help, if it be share setups, replays or anything else I can do, I'm more than willing to offer my time and assistance.

Lets not turn this thread into a personal bashing session and concentrate on how to improve things.

Darren's comments are very similar to my own views, I won't race if I've not practiced enough and feel its a duty to do so if I'm going to be racing against others who have spent time learning tracks. I also agree with Brian and I'm happy to do anything I can to help things progress here.

Oh and Darren, still plenty of good races to be had here, you've just been unlucky recently but I'm looking forward to another scrap like we had at Silverstone.

Regards
Gary

From the sounds of it, I'm in the minority, but I sort of agree with Rob - without SR or iR it is easier to push that little bit more. I'm not sure he means that he deliberately takes less care, more that subconciously you do. My attitude is that I don't want to spin anyway as I want to finish well, but I'm prepared to push the car enough that a spin is possibility. Looking at the races up to now I think all the quick drivers do this, but it doesn't mean that races are necessarily spoiled.

I've watched the replay a fair bit now and the problems imo are not so much the number of spins as the way they are managed. Drivers need to do whatever they can when they go off to avoid affecting others (even if this compromises their race) and those approaching incidents need to be ready to back off. There were several cases on tuesday of drivers ignoring both of these things. I also think that tuesday was different from previous races - a lot of drivers felt they had a chance to do well and knew that they could lap within a few tenths of the leaders. This made for a very competitive race but also one where people drove closer to their own limits, hence the incident count.

Yes Paul, but do we want people pushing that extra bit, egged on by there subconcious? As Ian said earlier, to last a whole 40min race doing that is very difficult, and some drivers are going to have a very poor season if they continually spin in every race. It doesn't matter whether the overdriving is deliberate, or subconcious, the result is the same.

I have to agree about the attitude required when approaching incidents. I think the main reason I was able to pick my way through the mayhem on Tuesday was for that very reason. I was quite prepared to back off when I saw yellows, or even just spotting a puff of tyre smoke. Some of it is just down to luck though, often no matter what you do the spinning car ahead just seems to be magnetically attracted to you!!!

My method of preparation is I drive until I build up pace and this takes some time. Once I feel I have achieved the fastest times at that risk level I start giving it more.

To be honest my practice session end up very messy as once at that stage I'm trying to find my maximum ability at every corner and often I exceed that in practice.

Come the race I know to draw my neck in and drive as fast as I sensibly can and to be honest I don't push as hard to know a mistake might come, I'm on the pace where I feel a mistake will not be there.

From the races I've won most have come where I've made a good start and pulled away over the first 25% of the race. Old mentality would have said to me push and win by as much as you can. Now I give more thought to doing well than diving fast and often that means driving just to match the car behind.

As for the SR iR debate, I want good SR and iR. However I'd much rather be viewed as a good honest sporting driver than anything else. Figures do often tell a story but it's not always that clear.

But how are you going to stop it Ken? It is exactly the same for drivers in all the other Srou events? Drivers will make a judgement on how likely they are to spin, and if they keep doing it then they will change. You can't legislate easily for this as pretty much everyone does it. The skippy is hard to drive quickly and errors are going to happen. I agree that drivers should not race if they are not capable of staying in control but other than that I think the system should concentrate on teaching drivers to manage their mistakes better. There is plenty of incentive not to spin just because it will kill your race.

Help stop it by removing the tow/reset. As has been stated, iRacing cars are more difficult to drive and more fragile than GTR/PNG/GTL. The best comparison is with GPL, and it has been mentioned that in the early days of UKGPL, it was the removal of the reset that finally cleaned up the racing.

Yes, it might help, but I don't see it having the same impact. In GPL shift R was your friend and you could up and racing seconds after a fatal crash. Here the same crash dooms you to being at least a lap down if not more. It wouldn't change the way I drive, or most other imo because a tow isn't much better than being out. At least if you are out you can do something else!

Yes, agreed, but it might be worth trying with resets removed just as a social experiment. Just to see if we are being influenced by some subconcious phenomina, eventhough our logical concious thoughts tell us a tow is as good as being out of the race anyway.

I dont understand why people think removing the reset will solve it. I cant imagine anyone going into a move thinking 'well I've got a reset if i muck it up'. If you do tangle with someone then your going to be at least a lap down, your massively dissadvantaged and your probably running on your own for the rest of it. So i can kinda understand TT's view where he doesnt use it.

It's a one make series, the cars arnt easy and seems to amplify the difference in everyone as the field can be spread by quite a margin. Any advantage is likely to be in the tenths over the next person that its going to be virtually impossible round a tight track to use it and would likely need a risky move. You dont have much spacial awareness around you and the wide angle mirror is very deceiving. I find i'm alright defending from someone if i can see them in the mirror as they are behind but as soon as someone tries something i'll just move out the way because once they along side you have no idea whats going on.

Totally agree with the spacial awareness comment, but again nothing unique to iRacing. That is how I approach any sim racing, if you can't see the car behind he is very likely to be alongside you. On Tuesday I could have tried to block Paul in to Druids near the end of the race, but I lost him in my mirrors, there was only three laps to go anyway and I was still on for a podium. All those thoughts quickly ran through my head and so I just stayed wide and let him through!!!

I also acknowledge that the current tow is as good as being out, but as I mentioned, it may be worth trying just to see if we are being influenced by something in our subconcious.

When someone totally new turns up to a ukgtr2 race, they tend to be a bit rubbish & are offten a bit of a moving obstacle. But while it might lead to the odd incident, usually it's no big deal because of the general experience level of others with the sim.

In iR we've got a massive % of drivers new to the sim, some experienced iR drivers not making enough allowance on track for the inexperienced drivers (yet are shocked when things get messy). A lot of iR cars are difficult to judge 'closeness' to other obstacles, yet we've not only picked two of the hardest cars... But we're shocked when things go wrong on tracks like Brands & Summit!

Jumping on the no resets band wagon is not the answer.

Shoot me if I'm wrong. :P

NOTE - Just to clarify, I'm not blaming anyone... Just saying there are too many factors involved to think removing the single repair option is going to solve all the problems.

My first few laps tend to be very messy but after that I try to build up speed in each turn gradually, so that when I've overcooked it I don't actually go off, just run wide, lock a brake and so on. It's an enormously useful skill because in a race you cannot afford to go off if you want to do well (unless you're a super alien :alien:) and if you can't read the car and work out when you're overstepping the mark without going off in practice you'll certainly not be able to do it in the race when there's so much other stuff going on.

It's a skill you'll need to race in real life too, where the cost of an off can be inifinitely higher than it is in sim racing.

That looks bad when you take it out of context like that but as I said I practice until I'm safe, then push the boundaries only to pull back to a safe level for the race.

Over the races I have done here other than the Skip race at Silverstone last season I've not made many mistakes.

I did get 10 incident points the other night but 8 were other cars spinning into me, one I just touched the grass and to my defence my one off was not bad.

I was up the inside of Brendan and got on the power too early for my tight line. Fully aware that if I tried to correct to the over-steer the likelyhood would be I would turn into Brendan.

In my attempts to avoid an accident I just allowed the car to travel in it's own direction to roll safely on to the grass and wait for a safe gap to pull back into.

You're a super alien though. :P :laugh: :alien:

Any chance we can have a stickied iRacing thread with maybe the top 10 things to remember when racing.

If so, I would like to add.  If you spin, both feet in. 

My own incident which unfortunately caught Darren out was caused by my trying to retain control on the grass.  Had I braked hard and let the spin come to it's natural conclusion, I could've rejoined in a safer fashion.  By braking, the spin at least carries on in a straight line and makes it much easier for following drivers to predict and react.

I certainly agree that drivers need to make sure they are predictable when coming back on track, although it is understandable that drivers want to avoid the barriers too.. The other thing is not to move unless you are sure there is a gap. F3 makes this quite easy but people seem too eager to get going again.

Thanks for the reactions and opinions to everyone who posted. We won't change the reset rule this season but we may change it for S3 and see how it goes.

The intention is to try and improve the quality of racing and I hope if everyone bears the main points in mind then things will get a bit better.

I don't think there's any reason drivers can't re-join the race safely, incidents involving poor re-joins in the future will be looked at very closely.