SimRacing.org.uk

Hi all,

Since my change in circumstances at the start of the year, I've just no longer had the spare time I find it takes to work out good balanced PnG races. I don't feel I'm able to do it justice & trying to find time to race let alone practice properly, it's just not working anymore sadly.

Come the end of the current season (6/5/10), I'll have looked after PnG for a year... I think that would be a good time for me to step down & let in some fresh blood. I'm willing/able to continue helping out with server duties or what ever might be required, it's just the putting races together I can't manage. :(

Either stick a note on here or send a PM to Dave (or me) if you'd like to give something back to Simracing :)

As I said, I'll do what ever I can to make your life easy while you settle into the role, so nothing to be nervous about.

Chris

p.s. May I add, thank you for allowing me the chance to have my go. :)

Well i thought i'd beat the rush  :-[ and say thanks for all your work with PnG over the last year. Its been good to see how adventurous you've been to try different things even if it meant lots of work and lots of criticism(tokens ;))

yeah top job Legzy  8) lets just hope someone with as much enthusiasm takes up the reins. If i had the time i would gladly do it but never have any spare these days  :'( besides you would all complain about the ongoing Porsche championship  ;)

Thanks for all the hard work you've put into organising these events for us Legzy. Hope this allows you to spend more time racing with us 8)

Many thanks for all the hard work you have put in over the last year Legzy. I have thoroughly enjoyed the PnG races, even ones with those horrible Porsches (sorry MJ) & I for one enjoyed the tokens system.

Enjoy your retirement, lol. :thumbup2:

Thanks Chris and well done.

I'm sure the Legzy Dollar will be with us for some time.

Thanks guys.

As Goldtop, Geoffers & Clive didn't rule them selves out of running UKPnG, I think we can assume they're interested? :angel:

Sorry Chris but my time is very limited and what I have is needed to learn about PnG rather than run the whole shooting match.

As I have said in recent PMs, I think that the format has to change as it is too labour intensive on the admin side at present.

I really appreciate the effort that you have put in and thank you very much for that.  I have been involved in GPL league admin until quite recently and had had to drop it for the same reason as above, namely lack of time.

Time permitting, I may be able to help whoever steps up for the task, on an ad hoc basis.

Thanks for organising PnG for us Legzy.  I too liked the token system it helped us lesser drivers, at the back of the field, to race against the better drivers and hopefully learn something from them.

Bill

No Legzy, don't have the time. As anyone who has been on NoGrip may have seen I'm currently involved with organising the GTL & P&G races there.

How would you guys feel about a handicapped series similar to how Race2Play (NASRL) does it? It produces some very tight racing and championship standings throughout the field. To date, each round has seen a different winner. I've fallen from the top step due to 3 DNF's lately, but was only 1 point up on 2nd prior to that. 3rd in the champoinship has changed hands many times. Administration is fairly easy. Course selection is where most of the work lies. If interested, I could ask Mike Kolar if he's willing to allow the model outside his group. I don't think it would be a problem considering the racing is done in different time slots (US time vs UK time).

Thanks for all your hard work Chris. Being put out to stud isn't so bad :)

If your interested in shaping the future of UKPnG, volunteer for the post  :)

sounds interesting Mike, maybe you can enlighten us all with the rules a bit further?

As for simplifying it a bit, i think a more generalised race series, intervened with some single make races could be the way to go, ala MARA league. Getting drivers to stick with one car throughout a season would be good too so that they have to use it on a variety of tracks that may or may not suit it. Thats got be the best and most realistic equaliser of pace, though i am sure the cream will rise to the top as expected. I dont like the current 'choose best car for the track' format that happens regularly. Pick a car, race a season like the real racing world  :)
We could always allow a car swap with a points penalty like we try and do in srouk GT modern series.

We could even have a 60's touring series using that class only, a GT series (Under or over 2L) and use the single make events to use the tasty or more obscure beasts.

I don't have the experience or expertise to take this on Legzy. I'm still too new to all this but I would of course be willing to help out where I can.

Mike's idea sounds very interesting. If it's a system that works and if there's no problems in adopting it then why not. I like the idea of one car per series based on preference/ability of each driver. Just don't give me a tank ;)

It would be more than 1 car per series, but there aren't many changes. The cars choices are consistent throughout the series. I'll explain in more detail after the race tonight. I wouldn't be able to run the series (time and time zone challenged), but I could help by making car and track suggestions along with testing. With my time zone difference, I will not be able to run the server and make all the races. How much time to you estimate you spend per week organizing and posting results of each race Legzy?

Posting a race on forum = 5 mins (but you could do it like Tony, rattle them all off in one hit. Would probably be an hour for the season :-\)
Starting the server = 5 mins
Posting Results = 15 mins (once you've done it a couple of times)

The only thing that takes time is trying to find balanced cars for tracks. This probably takes me longer then most, because untill I have a seriously worked setup for a car that I'm happy with, I'm about as fast & consistant as Tony :-* my times can be all over the place.

Just to add, I intend to still race most of the time & so would be happy to help out with servers etc on occaision if the new organiser needed. :)

If I'm in the mood and I have all the historic and technical data to hand I can rattle of a series in a lunchtime. Did one today  :angel:

Just starts with an idea. A "what if"? probably thought about on the drive to work. Develop the idea into a race series, then tweak and tweak and test and test and refine. I find the hardest part is actually testing the cars on the tracks. I know Legzy is much more thorough than me in this respect.

The testing is the part I'm comfortable with. If Tony has his hands full, I can come up with a series. I would be in favor of handicapping the faster drivers; not with tokens, but tiers. Faster drivers get slower cars. Slower drivers get faster cars. Pit strategy would come into play. This type of racing gives an opportunity for everyone to not only be competitive, but learn something new each race.

Noooo !...lol  :laugh: only joking, i would enjoy some pitting in longer races but would it be necessary in our 40min events? unless you use 2x tyre wear perhaps.  :-\

My only qualm with an alien gifted driver like your good self testing Mike, is that you may be able to get a lot more pace out of a certain car than us mortal drivers could manage. Maybe someone like Ade, who's fast in most of these classics but not quite yet at alien status, could also test your car choices in advance as a backup  :-\ He's always on the P&G server anyway, as is Matt ! ;)

ps in my earlier post it said "interspersed with single seater races"..that meant to say 'single make' races, ie IROC or whatever.

Maybe. However, for me, better that than someone else testing and aliens being outta sight on race day cause whoever tested didn't get the best outta out of it (it happened back in my day rather a lot).

I'm sure whoever is lucky enough to get the post will have their own ideas but, using a system that does away with the endless comparison testing would make sense. In my opinion, there really are very few perfect match ups in PnG so tokens, the MARA way, Mikes way would be the best way forward. I would run that "clubmens" series one week and a one make series the week after.

Mike got my attention.  :)

Personaly, I don't enjoy too much one car make race, the spirit of historic cars are the so different
weights, powers and handling, that using a one make car reminds me todays GT1 cars (same weight, same height, same HP, same design, same paint, same....).
It would/should  be possible to use several sub-classes from a class at a same race, i.e. using the year and/or c.c. of each one. Another thing I hope to be done is a points scenary that who doens't finish a race would be penalized for that. Maybe points for all but with a huge difference between who finish and who not. Perhaps a success points for the race laps done...it should avoid the quiters after one spin or a crash that doesn't kill the engine. This is one subject I have been speaking for years and tried to raise to all.
Just as an example, last race at Nordscheleife I have done 1 lap without the rear wing at the GP layout to went to the pit repairs, which put me in last, I lost almost 5 minutes, but got back on track and finished. I really don't like to see grids of 20 drivers become 10 because of the spins and crashes that can be repaired.

Thank you.  :)

Mike Kolar from NASRL at Race 2 Play has agreed to share his Tiered approach to a "clubmans" series. You can read about the details here... http://www.nasasimracing.com/homepage/show_posts/15720

I'm of the opinion that people learn more (improved driving, setup skills, etc..) when driving 1 or 2 cars for an extended period of time. Because of this, I would suggest sticking with 1 set of cars (say the brute squad) the entire season. Track selection is key here because something like Lemans wouldn't give the slower tier cars a chance to finish well. Crystal Palace wouldn't give the bigger power brutes a chance.

I'd also like to analyze this past season at Race 2 Play using average points scored within each race participated to determine your car tier. This would help with any latecomers to the series not jump in a car quicker then needed after the 1, 2 race opener with the slower cars.

I agree with PR on some kind of penalty for not finishing x% of the race distance or better yet, some sort of benefit for finishing x%. I'm thinking finishing 90% race distance in 4 races gives you a credit to use a car from the next tier down (higher tier #'s are slower cars) in the next race. Credits could not be banked and saved at the end of the series for an unfair advantage. If you get a tier credit and you are in the highest tier (fastest cars available) then you could get the opportunity to drive a very quick car like a 906/8 or something like that within the Brute squad.

If there is interest, I'll do the testing. If we go with something like this, I could manage the testing, track selection, and tier management, but because I can't make it to every race, I wouldn't be able to run the server and the like.

Interesting idea Mike. For me, such a series would have to have a GT tier. Running just a brute or bees tier runs the risk of alienating those not liking those choices? Running Brute Squad, Busy Bees and then GT tiers sounds great to me.

Good call Ian. The GT cars are my favorites. Testing would have to determine a selection that could be broken into tiers.

 ???  anyone know what they are talking about?      :laugh:

Great ideas Mike and Ginsters. I would shy away from forcing people into cars they really dont like as that would just impact on attendance. So a decent field spread and/or classes would be the way to go. I think we need the odd single car-type race and special track event so that we can use some tasty cars throughout the season.

Track wise for a season we just need a decent range of fast and slower tracks so that no one car type can theoretically dominate all the time.

Mike,
Are you offering to run the show if you can get a 'server starter/results poster' type assistant?

If so, surely somebody who enjoys racing here would be happy to step up?




(Reminder - Starting server = 5 mins before race  /  Posting results = 15 mins after race)

Yes

I have always found in previous series that driving different cars each week was the main attraction.  The possibility of driving the same one or two cars for a whole season fills me with horror.  :scared: :yawn:  I don't argue with your belief that it aids drivers development but I join in races for fun - I have no aspirations of ever winning a race.  My main aim is not to be the last car on the road at the flag by keeping ahead of my fellow "backmarkers".

Well thats my twopence worth.

Laurie

If you are in the highest tier (lower season points total or lower average points/race) then you are free to choose any car from any tier. I think the brute squad has something like 10 cars available if memory serves me right. You could easily drive a different car each race and still have some left over.

checked out the link, all seems interesting enough but it leaves out a lot of cars that are available in P&G, like the e-types and normal fezzas etc. I suppose you cant have it all ways though and there seems a decent enough spread to try out different cars. We can only try it for a season and see how it goes. Then like the FIA (or not!) we can change the format if it proves generally unpopular.

I read all your ideas, and I found some of these really good. From my experience, I can tell that making a good car balance for every track it's something really difficult, and when the P&G 3.0 will be released, we'll have some other work to do testing again how every car is balanced agains the others. I can say this, seeing the results during our Italian P&G championship ROTW, in which are engaged even some MARA friends: it's impossible to give a Token value to each car for every circuit, because every car in P&G, fit better in some circuit than in some others (probably an Alpine would be competitive agains an Alfa Volumetrico in a circuit like Limerock park or Monaco GP, and absolutely uncompetitive in tracks like Riverside Can AM or Monza just to make an example), that's the real trouble in balancing these old cars.
In the ROTW Championship there's a simple running system. They divided the 12 races of the champ in 3 Garages, and the 4th event of every Garage was a Single Make special event. Every component of a team (composed by 3 drivers obviously) had to choose a different car on every circuit, and at the 3rd race of every garage every teammate should have driven all the 3 cars available. Generally every garage was composed by a fastest car, a medium car, and a slower car, to let all the drivers to compete in the first places at least one time per Garage. However this system don't need necessarily a team composition.

1st Garage was composed by:
-Lotus Cortina Works (the slowest of these 3)
-Alfa 1600 GTA (Not Volumetrico!) (medium car)
-Alpine Renault (fastest car)

Each driver had to chose a different car in every race during this first stage, that included these 3 circuits:
-Leipzig 67 (Link to the official practice laptimes by clicking on the top of the page on the Circuit Name:http://www.racingontheweb.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=265 (http://www.racingontheweb.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=265))
-Mosport 1977 (Link to the official practice laptimes:http://www.racingontheweb.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=265 (http://www.racingontheweb.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=265))
-Donington park (Link to the official practice laptimes:http://www.racingontheweb.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=265 (http://www.racingontheweb.net/index.php?option=com_wrapper&Itemid=265))

As you can see by these laptimes, these 3 cars, driven by drivers of quite same skill (leaving the first 4-5 aliens always in front), are so close in these circuits, but to prepare a champ like this you need a lot of testing work in every circuit. My idea is to exploit this work to make less comparison and testing, at least to give an idea of which cars should fit better to have some close races with each other.
The last year Chris tried to follow a similar way, and some of us gave him a hand trying to balance the cars in some groups, but in my opinion cars were too much to be tested in only 2 weeks before the race, and this fact caused some starting grids with really distant times between slowest and fastest drivers, and sometimes especially with the Tokens system, some of the fastest drivers had only few chances to compete for the first positions, that sometimes caused some bad feelings, because the car range every race was too high in my opinion.
My idea is to use every database of laptimes in all the championship in which some of us had been involved till now, like that of MARA friends, or Mike Miller Race 2 Play races reports, our ROTW P&G Championship etc etc. to work out a solution that in every race can put even the slowest drivers to compete sometimes in the front rows, but not with much than a 3 cars choice in every race, because it will be very difficult to find more than 3 cars that can battle with the same pace.
I believe I have a good deal, and I hope I have been equally clear explaining my thinking.
I conclude thanking Legzy for his great and hard work till now, and all people like Paul, Ian, Mike (forgive me if I forget someone) that every time has tried to help him in this work. I'm sure that here will be find a valid person that will follow his pretious work. I'll be always available to speak my mind and help you to work out some good races for this great Comunity!
Cu guys :)

First of all a big thank you Legzy for organising the GTL & P&G series last year. Good races especially the cracking 3 hr Le Mans endurance race.
Really appreciate the effort! Maybe you end up like that other former director, talking alien gibberish and taking podiums like clockwork  ;)

Personally I'm up for everything (Le Mans endurance with Mini's?) and looking foreward what our new director has in store..

Nice.

So who enjoys racing PnG here most weeks that would be happy to step up to start the server & post the results?





(Reminder - Starting server = 5 mins before race  /  Posting results = 15 mins after race)

I'm happy to anouce that Goldtop and I will be managing the server and planning the events next seasion. I will be testing the on vehicle/track and format duty while Goldtop is on server/results duty. I will not be able to make all the events, but will make it to as many as possible. I'm currently testing the slower group of cars in the handicap format I'm planning. Last weeks race at St Jovite should give you a taste of what's to come. The format will include pit stops so I suggest you practice those early. A lot of time can be made up or lost in the pits. I'll share more details in the coming weeks. I'm looking forward to continued close racing with the group and hope I can hold the torch as well as Legzy has done so.

May I be the first to say congrats to both of you, I'm looking forward to next season already 8)

Many thanks to all three of you.

We couldn't race without you.

Many grats to Mike and Goldtop for their new hard work!!! I'm sure that you'll go on with the same passion of your good predecessors :)

If you need a hand for testing the car, or something I can do to help you, I'll do it pleasantly, and don't be afraid to contact me by pm or something else, now that I'm slowly returning to drive by my steering wheel :)

I can only wish you a good job!

Happy Easter to all UK Simracing guys!!! CU soon on track!!!

Glad to be onboard for this and really looking forward to what Mike has in store for us 8)

I'll be learning the ropes behind the scenes over the next few weeks and hope to keep things running nice and smoothly for all our PnG events.

Many thanks to Mike & Goldtop for stepping up to the plate. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Thanks for the effort. Really appreciated.
Can you lift a tip of the veil and tell us if there are any endurance races planned?
Would love to see them return to PnG  8)

Thanks for all your hard work Legzy and good luck in the new GTR post (more money? :)).

Best of luck to Tudor and Mike, although I'm sure you'll be fine. 

Congrats and good luck both.  ;)