SimRacing.org.uk

Car: Star Mazda
Track: Sebring (International)
Practice: approx. 18:00 for 150 mins
Qualifying: 20:30 (15 mins)
Race: 20 laps

Start: Rolling start (EDITED)
Flags: local only

THERE WILL BE NO RESETS AVAILABLE!

NOTE: All sessions protected by the main password, there is no seperate 'pre-event practice'
Password: see above (#post_event_password)
(2) Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R;group=255;theme=33)

Bring it on!  ;D

No resets!
What will Team Prodigy do on lap 2?  :-*

Brilliant track for the Mazda 8)

Just had half an hours practice!

Cooor !! awesome!! :)

5m 43s pb so far Chris!  ;)

Sebring and the Mazda go really well.

Had some of my best ever races with this combo.

Looks like it's all going downhill from here then! ;)

I'm pleased the Mazda won the voting, I haven't driven it for quite a while but I've had a lot of fun get re-aquanted with it so far.

2:01's for me so far so still a bit to find.

At least some of us have run the official races so should be able to stay on track! Now, can i work out which setup i used for it though....

Oooh check you Mr. Glass Half Full - I had Spanner down for T4 tops and I fully expect to be part of the scenery by the final turn  ;D.

I dont remember putting my name down for the Team Prodigy Display Team :P

I didn't find this in any dictionary. What does it mean? ;D

Maybe he just missed the "s" off the end, I need a beer :D

Ok am down to 2.04's now which is at least 3 seconds off pace. :'(
Soooo... before we get started, anyone want to give me the lo down on the Mazda.

How does it like to be driven!? trail braking!? etc.
Has anyone got a base set up!?
Which are the most important set up changes!?
Sebring is quite bumpy, the set up I current have has the softest spring settings etc. etc. and still is border line!?
or am I running with not enough wing!? or are bump and rebound the main adjustments!? on this car?
Just need a basic guide so I understand how to get the best from it!?

Ta

M.

I'm happy to give you my set-up Martin, it's one I randomly downloaded off the forums and tweaked the brake balance back a bit.

I've just been driving it like the Indycar...  :)

That would obviously be great Pops, thanks but was hoping someone might have a few pearls !  ;)

I find the Mazda is quite happy with trail-braking and I can attack the entry more than I could with the IndyCar.  Then you can get on the power very aggressively on the way out.  They aren't keen on riding kerbs though.

Oh dear! This clashes with the GTL anniversary event. :wetfish:

Mazda feels even better round here with the latest updates the car slides really nice and has much better feel under braking.  1.59's for me in race trim.
Just noticed Mr Kerr does 57's so we all need to try a bit harder.  :D

jezz, S3 starting already??

OK, sheepish apology for absence here. After all my whinging about the start time I will most likely miss this event. I've just got back from my bike club, where we now have a monthly time trial event using my rig. So my raceframe, projector etc is all dismantled and lying in boxes in the back room. Tomorrow we leave for Chester to visit daughter No1, who is at Uni down there (hopefully catch a bit of British Superbikes at Oulton sometime over the weekend too!). We wont be back until Monday night so I doubt I will have time to lug all my bits back in to the loft and get it setup before the race on tuesday.  :(

I'm out too.

I've just zero time at the moment due to circumstances. Hopefully in a few weeks I will be back once I've found a more permanent base in Aberdeen.

Sorry to hear you guys can't make it, hope you get sorted soon Brian.

My nice, safe set-up needs a bit of tweaking after the last update, it's a bit too enthusiastic on exit now whereas I able to 100% mash the throttle previously :D

I always seem to have a problem working out which setup in the folder i used last time i've run tracks. Can you create sub folders? None of them seem right at the moment!

I've been adding (2010 S1) to my recent ones as each build seems to make the old setups useless but when you've got 5 of those it doesn't really help. Need to keep better records  :-[

I tried sub-folders a while back, but they don't show in game!!

It is a major drawback and as you say it is very easy to loose track of your favourite setup for a particular track.

I think sub-folders do work now (build before last).

Actually, I think they did show and you could see the setups in them, but if you selected one it gave an error message. It would only accept setups at the car folder level. I will try again after Iain's comments.

New PC bits arrive on Tuesday morning... not sure I will have it built and configured before the race!? :(

Anyone figured out race fuel yet?

Was there a new build lately for the Mazda, and would it require totally different setups?

More grip from the tyres Rob but probably the same set up!

Yeah, the tyres were altered a bit, the car drives nicer now, but my setup hasn't changed too much.

Practice server is up, I should be around later after 8.

Well I can't tell you how much fun we've been having on the server tonight! That's despite still being 2nd slowest by the end of the night (despite my new PB :laugh:).

The only thing that can spoil my race now, is being hit by someone & having no way to repair my car. I just can't understand the decision for no resets.

I don't understand iR still keeping that ... damage model and no repairs in the pits, i.e. go back to racing in time to actualy race somebody. "Fast" tow? You get back on track, you're two laps down. That's the end of fun for me. :(

Sebring is great and I must say it always felt "too easy" in other sims. Here you must take seriously every corner. Every time. Quite bumpy as well on some places (T1) and I have yet to figure out the damping settings to fix these track "anomalies" - if it can be done at all. Fun track / car combo, though I don't expect to last the whole race. :-\

Ditto, ditto, ditto.... :(

Std of driving in the srou races has been worse than the public servers!.. imho and I include myself in this! ;)
I agree long term we should get rid of them but we need a few races with new cars etc. so we all 'settle in' !?
Getting knocked out in the first couple of corners whether it's your or someone else's fault is just not 'fun'
and seeing hours of practice go down the drain is not good.
I agree it's not as much fun running 2 laps down but I do like to at least complete an event even if I'm last! :)

Meant to add.. standing start ?????

There's no resets for the following reasons; as TT said, a lot of drivers think they're pointless as you end up 1 or 2 laps down and your race is effectively over, we saw a lot of drivers quit out rather than take the reset. Also, lapped card (due to resets) caused a few issues with overtaking cars on certain circuits last season which I'd rather avoid. My personal view is that it makes you drive a bit more carefully.

I don't think it's an unreasonable expectation that everyone can drive 40 minutes without needing a reset tbh but that said, we'll see how it goes and I'm happy to review after a few races.

If you want your race to last more than a corner then race more carefully. If everyone does it then we will all get around!!! ::)

It's utterly ridiculous to be asking for resets when the problem is that people are making contact not that the cars can't be repaired. We should be asking people to not make contact, not to think contact is ok and then allow them to have another go. There are still too many people that think door rubbing is an acceptable method of overtaking, even if the cars can take it a bit of it. In UKiR you know the cars are more brittle before you start so you should be giving more room and driving less hard to compensate and if you don't you are at fault.

I'm more concerned that we couldn't manage standing starts in GTR where the cars are far less brittle, so I'm VERY surprised to see standing starts STILL being used here. I think it's going to be a detriment to the racing to not be switching to rolling starts. Maybe I missed the opportuntity in some thread somewhere to comment on going to rolling starts, but I can't believe we're still using them and I really think we'd all be far better off using them.

If you do Class A races on the public circuit the standard is pretty good even in mid pack, BUT I believe that's a lot down to having rolling starts, which has made a HUGE difference to fewer incidents on lap 1 (where most incidents in Class A occur) since I left and came back. So much so that in Class A I no longer start from the pits to avoid incidents! You know to still avoid the Italians and race everyone else, but with a rolling start there is much less urgency to desperately try and overtake on lap 1. Put me in a Class D Skippy race though and I will always start from the pits cause they are incapable of managing a standing start and have the opportunity to reset.

Once you align UKiR with UKGTR start procedures (as much as you can) I think lap 1 will be a much better place to be and I won't have to consider starting from the pit lane even here which I'm sad to say I'm contemplating doing.

As far as driving the Mazda goes I'm still having the problem that the cars turns far too quickly for my liking. It's one of the things I hate about the F1 79 Lotus, which is even worse than the Mazda. The Mazda at least I can manage it, but I've tried a few things with the setup and I can't get the car too turn more slowly down to a stage where I can say I like the steering.

Anyone know someway to turn down the steering response for the Mazda? I've tried opposite ends of the toe-in toe-out spectrum, I've got the castor on minimum and there is no steering ratio option, so I'm at a bit of a loss to think of anything else to try.

Stiffer front springs, stiffer front roll bar, no rear roll bar, less front wing, less front camber.  They should all make the car understeer and slow down the rate of turn.  It'll kill the front tyres of course :(

I agree mainly Simon  ;)

I wasn't trying to get into the old debate about resets etc.
I was just trying to make the point that the first 2 or 3 races could be done slightly differently so we all
get time to run close together in new cars. After that then standing starts and no resets could be the norm!?
I agree about the Class A to D comparison.
I think we had it nailed in the end with the Indy car but did I notice srou had a few skippy issues!?
Having said all that, Oily,Legzy, Spanner and I ran bumper to bumper last night on the practice session and had a brilliant time!
( Do Mazda's have bumpers! lol )

I don't want understeer, I want less sensitive/responsive steering. I'm happy with the oversteer/understeer aspect of the setup. The problem I find is that even a small turn of the wheel result in a massive change of direction. Some of the other cars have steering ratio, but not the Mazda. Is there maybe a trick to do with the steering lock control settings (now that controls are customised per car)?

You could try less caster, although that will also reduce what little steering feel the car has.

I'm already on minimum, although tbh I can't say I noticed any difference between max and min castor in the Mazda which is also VERY odd as it makes a big difference on the other cars.

I thought the standing starts in the Skip Barbers were (maybe surprisingly) fine, we hardly had any issues into T1 in the last few races.

Unlike my usual thoughts though, I'll make a last minute change to tonights race and we'll have a rolling start, hopefully that should make it easier to avoid any T1 problems amd not need to use the non-existant reset ;)

Thanks Pops, I think that's a very sensible decision particularly for the first race.

There is technique to launching the Mazda where massive gains can be had.

Max revs in neutral with clutch at about 40%, dump it into 1st and let the clutch slip. This keeps the revs up and no wheelspin and the gains can be huge. Let the clutch out once past the point of bog down.

Obviously the problem comes when the guy ahead makes a bad start and does not expect to be jumped all over.

First turn is always fun at Sebring. With the speed arrpoaching T1 if one goes usually a lot go with them.

I just need to remember to select the correct option when I start the server tonight! lol

Have to agree with the Seriously Old ones, that was a lot of fun last night (best was a 2:00.6) - aside from the odd crazy moment we were able to run close lap after lap, it was quite intense between us at times with the gap changing by only tenths. I think I'm actually going to cry if I don't get a chance to do the same this evening in the race....it's got the potential to be a fantastic one. Like Martin I really didn't want to stop hot lapping last night!

For anyone who's interested, I'm in favour of the Mazda tweaks too - it feels to me like it's ever so slightly better balanced since the update and I was able to correct a couple of mistakes that would previously have definitely seen me swapping ends. I feel like I have just a fraction more confidence with the rear to attack and it's making for an even more enjoyable drive.

I think the rolling start is unnecessary personally, is somebody having problems getting a Mazda off the line? As Kerr says, T1 will be the prob and that's going to happen regardless - plus I reckon we're more likely to have problems negotiating that tight and bumpy last turn as part of a clumsy train without limiters than losing it getting the power down from a standing one but in for a penny as they say!

As for the resets, yes they'd be nice in some circumstances, last week I would have happily driven around enjoying the car (Late Model) after my shunt but I don't think that's really what our league races are about. That said, I don't think the lack of them does anything at all to the mindset of the drivers. If I touch anything I know there's a good chance my race is run so that's my incentive not to hit things/ people. However with a reset, a) I don't think it's simulating the real world circumstances and more importantly b) I wouldn't want to be responsible for causing problems for the rest of the pack by being a fast(ish) backmarker lapping in amongst everyone. No doubt it'll come back to haunt me but I'm not in favour, the agony of races ended early make the highs of good results that much more enjoyable.

Really looking forward to this one - just hope my concentration can last the distance, I feel like I'm going to have to absolutely nail every apex to stay mid grid lol!

You could cheat the calibration.  Select custom controls for the car and then recalibrate the steering.  When it asks to turn the wheel 90deg, turn it more than 90 and calibrate it there.  That's one way of getting a bit less sensitivity.

Ok, so you turn 90 degrees but it thinks you are turning less than 90. Sounds good, but does that mean you can't get full steering lock as it's always less than what you'd expect?

Wouldn't you need more caster to make the steering less twitchy?  I may be wrong though.

Rolling start does seem a bit strange...

Not 100% sure I can do this one though as I've not had chance to practice yet so will have to rely on what I can remember from the iRacing races last season.  It was a great combo though.

Another very easy and 100% consistent technique for starting is simply to select 1st at red with no throttle and plant your foot at green.  The engine picks up so quick with no wheel spin that it's always worked a treat for me.  Seems counter intuitive, but it always seems to result in competitive starts off the line.

Cheers, Ross.

No, you will still get full lock.

I know what you're saying and I agree, but I don't think it's getting off the line that's the issue, like it was in GPL. It's the situation that presents itself as a result of everyone being that much closer to each other with many differences in speed. Rolling starts mean everyone is going roughly the same speed and if done single file mean that people are also spaced far further apart. Sorry forgot to ask if we're doing single or double file rolling (don't know if it's even an option)?

I know we all think we can manage it and should manage it but we didn't and couldn't which is why we went to rolling starts in the GTR cars and it helped to reduce the number of lap 1 incidents.

The last turn is actually much wider than it looks especially when going at pace car speed. If everyone leaves a nice gap instead of doing a WTCC style double file rolling start, we'll be fine. :)

I use this technique all the time with the Custom controls option ticked!
I set 500 degrees in game controller.
In theory 90 deg gives you 500 degrees when in the calibration screen but as Mike says, you can then dial in 400 or 600 etc.
Still not perfect but does allow you a little adjustment!

M.

Single file rolling starts aren't an option at present (unfortunately) so it will be double file.

Good luck to all of you in the Mazda tonight, I'll see you next week for the DP race

Gary

PS Iain - you ignoring me?

???

EDIT: Ah. sorry, I get you. PM being replied to!

No Ross the more caster you have the sharper the car should turn in .

Now thats a trick and a half !!  Made a massive difference to the feel of the Mazda....  cheers   :)

Yeah, I think I was thinking more about steering stability and the self-centering action of the wheels.

Really looking forward to this!  ;D

Server is up!

SROU driving standards = Class D public servers! .....err... told you so!  :-\

pointless racing when everyone causing a mayhem at turn 1, what a waste of a evening:/

Looks like the last update has broken the results import so it will be delayed.

Apologies for my spin in t1 - loads of lag with cars jumping around all over the place completely distracted me and I dropped it.

Once past the excitement of the first few laps, that was a long and pretty boring race...

Sorry that we connected in t2/t3 Peter, I don't have a replay of the early laps so couldn't really see what happened, but I think we were both just wanting the same bit track at the same time and you seemed to come off worse.

Cheers, Ross.

I sure didn't expect the front 3 to take each other off at T1  :o

That left me chasing Brendan for most of the race, trying to keep him under pressure.  After lap 15 he was getting slower and I closed right in, pounced for the lead when he made a mistake onto the back straight.  He then let me off the hook when a mistake dropped him 5 seconds back.

I won!!! WOOHOO!  ;D ;D

Grats to Darren and Simon taking the podium places.

Average qually sesh left me a bit further down the field than I wanted (and behind Pops - oh the inhumanity of it all) - but I was pretty confident I could run well in the race.

After the inevitable smoke, screech, and smash at T1 I made it through unscathed, and set about making progress.  I managed to get alongside TT into the hairpin, and thankfully TT didn't put up too much of a fight, and then I had to catch Shark and Pops who were hard at it  :-X

There was a bit of a train going on for a good couple of laps, until Shark got a good run out of Le Mans, and made the pass into the loooooooooong final bend ... leaving me and Pops to duke it out and let Shark get some breathing space ::).

I got by Pops in a similar manner to Shark, getting a run down the Ullman Straight, and getting the inside line was enough.  Pops wasn't for leaving me to dissapear though - really had to keep the hammer down.

After Shark span he got by Pops and I again (boo) - my mistake coming out of Le Mans and was powerless to defend ... we ran pretty close until lap 19 when I made a mess of T15, and that was that ...

Some good racing as the Legends v Shark fight goes on, and well happy with a much improved drive from me - just the solitary incident point, and going from 12th to 5th.  :)

I really enjoyed that.

I overachieved in qually to get 8th with a new PB and knew there would be pressure from behind so I had to drive well. Which unfortunately I didn't :(

It was great fun though with good close racing with Simon, Adam, Adam, TT & John

Decided to take the plunge and race after quite a gap from when I last raced anything.  I'm glad I did.

Started 11th. Took it very easy and was 14th after the first lap. Thankfully the were no dramas where I were.  I was able to overtake someone into the last coner on the next lap and that was it.  I pretty much kept it on the road from the and was part of a train for the most of the mid to last part of the race when two guys made contact in front of me which allowed TT I think to catch up with me.  He was faster but i hoped i could hold him off for the final few laps.....

I hit a kurb which pointed me in the direction of a nice wall.     how nice!!  ::)

Fun race though....It's good to be back!  ;D

Adam

Avoided the mayhem on lap 1 after qualifying 14th. I was up to 6th at the end of lap 1!! Chased Pops, just sitting behind him for a fair few laps getting into the groove and being sensible after some of the madness other people were having on lap 1. After a while I overtook him and found myself in 4th. Not to make life too easy for me I then span on the last turn about 13 laps in, losing 3 places and had to pass them all again (which was good fun and really clean, much better than public servers!). With Brendan running out of fuel I then got promoted to 3rd for a ridiculously high finish considering where I qualified, although again I was faster in race than qualifying after yet again not practicing.

The start of lap 1 looked just how most Mazda races are in the public servers, if you avoid the mayhem you can get a top 6 or 7 finish easily. Good luck moderators! ;D People driving far too close to each other and not leaving a decent gap on the rolling start meaning they've all ended up in the same place at the same time and then because it happened at the front the rest of the field have suffered too. Be sensible even if that means you think you might lose out, make sure you get round lap 1 and then race. Just follow the next guy and stop trying to race each other into T1!

There was some very sensible driving from the old guard I was around and I had fun racing the likes of Pops and Adam although I stilled didn't really get the car much tbh. Mike's trick with the steering was a big help to make it less responsive, but the setup I made changes to just before the start of the race ended up having a tiny bit too much understeer.

Anyway, great result for Mike and Team Shark with a starting 1-3 and well done to Darren on the 2nd place too.

Well I was one of the lucky ones to not get hit by one of our famously safe dodgy SROUK drivers. ;D

I did however manage to get myself in a bit of a pickle cutting over one of the inside corners of the back to back early chicane (T4?) whilst watching another driver over braking :laugh:. It told me I had to slow so I got pushed back to last & then had a good few laps racing with some of you, probably the closest with Ross... but i think he seemed to pull out of the fight after about 3 laps inches apart. Good fun while it lasted 8)

Back on my own from then as people dropped out & the concentration went as I tried to nail fastest laps each time (nout else to do but try to enjoy myself) & finally nudged a wall. Just lost the one place back to Ross as I retired in 11th.

Lovely combo, shame so many still suffered on L1 T1. A single file rolling start would help, but not sure if side by side didn't make it worse :-\ (worth trying again probably).
I reckon we're approaching the time where we start dishing out yellow/red cards & race bans. Simon was right, having a reset or not is not targeting the problem. Thoughtless selfish driving. (Now give me back my reset :P ;))

Lol, was pure luck that I managed to avoid you. ;D
Managed not to hit anyone this time. YAY for me! ::) After being overly careful through spinning T1 cars I managed to get a spin after catching the wrong kurb. That was fairly in the beginning, so managed to pace myself and get back some places. Like this car, was feeling much more confident, more than any other iCar so far. Corvette is nice, but I'm slow in it (too). ;)
Grats to all finishers. :)

Just got everything back together at about 10.00pm this evening so missed all the fun!! But isn't this car absolutely right on the money now. I have just been to a public session at Road America and I was grinning from ear to ear. You can catch slides, you can ride curbs and generally just have a blast. I managed a mid 2:04 and looking at the few qually times posted so far that isn't far off the mark. Roll on Brands Hatch!!

Well not a good start to the season.  Got mugged at the start and had John to the left of me and someone else to the right and just caught Johns rear wheel which sent me flying.  Luckily enough i never wiped nobody else out apart from John who spun but then i dont know who's fault the incident was . Cant quite work it out as we touched before i had a chance to turn in. ???

Grats to Podium.

Anyway on to the next one which should be good.. The mazda at Brands is great fun!!




Ken i totally agree with you... Car is much better to drive now , Feels like a kart.

Dan sorry about that t1, as I turned in I actually thought I was hit from the rear but turns out it was you outside me, I thought we turned in together but you had to turn in a little sharper being on the outside, may have been lag though really sorry, car was horrible to drive after that could not turn into any left hander at all and struggled to keep anyone behind me never mind overtake anyone, finally got a little more used to the handling and caught up the bunch in front but could not really pass anyone with the car as it was.

Sorry to whoever it was I hit into the final corner did not expect you to brake to early there but totally my fault apologies

Always the worst thing when your race effectively ends in t1

And yes fantastic to drive now they fixed the kerb issue

Seconded, resets don't fix the issue! I really want the srou iracing leagues to work out but may be this is the type of pain we have to through until we get it right?

For the record, I entered turn 1 and saw cars everywhere, tyre smoke... eased off to avoid a spinning car and got rear ended!  :(

The great fun we had monday night on the practice server is my only consolation.

Looked roughly to me that 2nd, 3rd and 4th went into T1 side by side, lost it and took out the leader!

I'm not naming names on purpose as I personally don't hold any one person responsible, I just want us all to approach this better in future!?  ;)

We could (should?) do single file rolling starts and ignore the built in rolling start. So you set the server to standing start and we do a regulation SRou rolling start like we do in UKGTR. I think most of us know that procedure by now and it works well to space the cars out and stop these situations where there are a lot of cars too close together for the first few corners of Lap 1.

The replay says it all really. There is no particularly stupid move or anything at the front. Poor old Gary in the lead gets taken out with the contact between John and Dan and then everyone else is just trying to avoid it all, some more easily than others. It does make me annoyed that some drivers can't just accept losing a position and get through T1 and then race for the remaining 19.9 laps than *shock horror* let off the throttle and make sure there is a gap for everyone at least at the start! :-\

Our normal rolling start procedure would have helped last night because there wouldn't be that many cars going into T1 on Lap 1 battling for position. There would be gaps between everyone and we'd probably all get through bar anyone losing it on the bump. Perhaps we can consider using it in future?

I've always tried to treat the double file rolling start as if it's single file. I actually got a slightly better start than Darren, who was alongside me, last night but it wasn't decisive so I eased off to let him have T1 as he was on the inside and I slotted in behind. Nice & safe.

At the risk of agreeing with Shark again :o, a regulation SRouk start might be a good plan. I propose we try that next race.

Anything we can do to make it safer I'm all for.

 ;D

I'm happy to try it - especially as Brands has much more chance of T1/2 carnage.

I guess the only difference is that we can't hold the cars on the pit limiter as we used to in GTR, so the procedure can't be exactly the same, but lets give it a try.

Can you not use the built-in pace car and use the SRou rule of only going when the car (in the position) ahead goes, instead of when the green light is shown? So pole goes on green, then 2nd, then 3rd, and so on.

Well that was a real shame.   :-X  Felt really confident i could get a good result in that race as ive been racing the Mazda's all last season and especially with the really fast guys not here.

Was quite surprised to get pole as John and Dan seemed a bit quicker in practise, i guess they didn't quite hook a good lap in Qualy. Was a bit nervous for the rolling start but i think i did it ok and got a decent gap on Dan but as i was turning in i got hit on the left rear from a spinning car and that was it  :( must of broke something as the car was undrivable so had to exit out.

I dont think standing or rolling start would of made much difference as people just need to be more sensible, 3 abreast in to T1 on lap 1 is gunna lead to trouble. I took T1 a little slower than normal as i didn't want to bin it and with cold tyres but i guess when people get a good start and get a sniff of getting past someone its hard to resist  ???

Grats to podium.

I guess that could work - and the field might not get quite so strung out then, as well as having the problem of an inconsistent pace lap removed.

BTW, are the incident reports going to be "automated" from the results or should we be entering them as normal?

I'm afraid I haven't yet automated the parsing of iRacing's incident chart data but will do my best to produce them manually to assist with picking out incidents that need reporting until I can provide a tool to do this automatically.

Even if I automate the parsing of the data though, it won't generate the required incident reports - it's more of a helper for the mods.

Cheers, Ross.

There is nothing wrong with the start procedure we used in last nights race.  Trying to change it is not going to fix the problem, just mask it. 

The problem is the overly aggressive attitude of certain drivers!!!  Trying to go into T1 at Sebring 3-wide is asking for trouble on any lap, especially on lap one when everyone is running on racing fuel and cold tyres.  Also, people need to realise that the position of the cars around us is not fact just an approximation. Until we ALL realise this and allow the cars around us more room we will always have these problems...

I vote to keep the double file starting procedure we used last night...

Sorry I didn't make it guys.  We had an issue at work and I didn;t get home till gone 8:30. :(

I'll be there for Brands.

Paul
:)

I do agree with you Darren, but things like altering the start procedure to space people out will mean that drivers have less opportunity to be that way because they are more spaced apart. But yes I do agree with you that it's not the cars being brittle at fault or the start procedure, it IS the drivers and once the racing is underway, we still have to rely on the drivers to not drive so close if they're not capable, or give more room to allow for differences in braking points and so on. You almost want to say no overtaking until T2 or maybe even Lap 2 if it continues like this though. :-\

Yes there is a problem with starts, we all should of stuck to starting from the grid and not rolling, I cant explain how pissed off I am, I know i wasnt that fast but I did actually put some practice in for this!, When i protest my incident, think they will be lot of cars involved in protest, I seriously think some people should get a right ticking off. I dont know if you do same sort thing in GPL ie 1st lap incident gets bigger penalty then rest of laps.

Grats on Mike winning and a Shark win :)

Thats my 2 cents..

Note why are the results showing make of car Dallara?

That's who makes the chassis.

Oh ok, just thought they did the Indycar.

OK, I don't know what the answer is to this but the responsibility most definitely must lie with the drivers.

It's not the start procedures or the lack of resets that are to blame.

I don't want to have to enforce single file rolling starts or arbitary rules like "no overtaking before turn 2" but until we can manage to not have so much contact I can't really see much choice.

Did anyone manage to save a replay?

Ok new here but my 2 cents worth, for me the parade lap was terrifying, half the time thought I was going to get taken out going around the outside or inside of someone, so I would def like to see that as single file until the start straight, if we carry on with rolling starts, but try and keep in formation as well.

The start was just one of those things IMO. But I am happy with whatever you guys decide on starts, I like the excitement of a start, yeah it hacks me off when I make a mistake or I get taken out by someone elses mistake, but that IS racing some times it sucks especially when you put in a few hours of practise, but think RL drivers get to take it easy into t1 or t2? no its about racing, would make it a little sterile for me if we said no overtaking till t2 or t3, its half the fun of it for me, especially when you are in sat in 4th place and the 3 leaders take themselves out lol.

Well like I said open to anything really just my 2 cents :)

yep, uploading it now. :)

UKGTR start procedure works fine, so I vote for the same in iRaces. :)

To me, there's nothing wrong with either a standing start or normal rolling start.  I learned a long time ago that there is no rule you can make that will prevent T1 incidents 100% of the time.  It's purely up to the drivers to make it work.  GRC uses standing starts with grids of 30, it's rare that we have a big pileup.

If we continue with rolling starts, use the normal pace car lap, but everyone should get into staggered formation.  When the green goes, you should go when the car directly ahead of you in your line goes.  You'll still be spaced out a little more which gives us a better chance.

Don't start treating the drivers as idiots.  Pick a start method, stick to it, and we will work it out.  Anyone who doesn't isn't gonna be scoring many points.

Well, we tried it and it didn't work, did it? There was the usual pileup in most of the iR races here - two seasons. I think it's time to try something new. Single file starts showed good results in T1 for GTR2, so... :-\  Even Legzy can make it now as there's no pit limiter button here. :D  One point, though: if we get into single file starts here, it might affect the routine on public iR races.

There have been plenty of races that have had a clean start, you can't reject a start method after just one try.  If we do go to the manual rolling start method, then please extend the race by a lap so that we have the same number of racing laps.

Here's another situation:  we do a manual rolling start and someone brakes wrong and spins at T1, taking out 2 other cars. It won't guarantee a clean start.

iRacing's dodgy netcode and collision detection just makes it harder.

There's no "right answer" to this, I wish there was, believe me ::)

Until evidence presents itself to the contrary, I believe a single file rolling start gives the best chance of a clean start.

This isn't real life, it's what we do for a hobby and as such we don't have the time the professionals do which makes ours even more precious.

Maybe we're not displaying the cor ethos of this league enough. It is not all about uber-competitiveness and if you want that then this isn't the right league for you. It's first and foremost about racing cleanly with other drivers, being sporting and then competition. There is plenty of competion left even after putting being sensible and giving each other room first (as the many seasons of GTR and other titles have shown), but if you're so desperate to beat someone that you can't see that it's best to finish behind them than risk taking them or both or more people out then this is not the league for you.

There are no cash prizes or real trophies at stake here so really it's not that important, it's just a game and we want everyone to have a good time. What we'll remember most when we hang up our helmets will be the sporting behaviour and close races, not the winning, so although competition is important and one of the reasons we do it, it has to come second here. There are other leagues and iRacing itself for uber-competitive driving.

Replay is here...
http://www.teamshark.org.uk/SimonGymer/files/SRou - Mazda - Sebring.zip (http://www.teamshark.org.uk/SimonGymer/files/SRou - Mazda - Sebring.zip)

It'll be interesting to see how the DP start goes. I'm starting to wonder if single seaters aren't compatible with the 'core ethos' of SRou after all...

At risk of agreeing with a Gymer for possibly the 3rd time this month & it's only the 5th day...  :surrender: :helpsmilie: :whistling:
I agree totally.

& also at possible risk of repeating ones self, but in the interests of our cor ethos of being sporting... any chance of a reset? :-* ;D

Personally my paramount aim at the start of any race is to get through T1 without crashing. But as has been said the problem comes if you've made a decent start sometimes it's difficult (phsycologically speaking)to ease off on the run towards T1 and that results in bunching. As soon as cars are side by side there is potential for contact and with so much to occupy you at the start of a race it is even more difficult to keep track of the position of all cars around you.

Also comparing to real life you have to say T1 Lap 1 must have the highest likelyhood of an accident at most levels of racing, just look at F1.

I don't think there is a magic solution, but you would think single file rolling starts should ensure enough seperation to avoid contact.

(http://www.davegymer.org/images/orly/owl-ruse.jpg)

Just to add to that, I'm often wary of braking too early for T1 in case I am rear ended by the car behind. So it is a fine line between avoiding that situation or rear ending the car in front. I can't be the only one who finds speed differences harder to judge in sim world compared to real world?? Once in to a race you can follow a car for a lap or two and learn where their brake points are, but at the start you have to make split second judgements!

Agreed Ken, it's very hard to judge speed in the sim world.  T1 is the most difficult and dangerous place in a race and I simply aim to get through there in one piece so that the race can start properly.

I still can't get sub-folders to work. I still get the same error message, "Can't load setup" or something to that effect. Same setups work fine when just in the car folder.

I can confirm that sub folders work in this build at last, but not in the previous build

Does it only work for one level down from the car folder then? I just thought I had mine in a track subfolder, then the setup builder name subfolder after that. Do you think that might be mine doesn't work. I will try again tonight.

Ditto!  ;)

I think we've got a vague concensus around a single file rolling start so we'll try that for the next race.

Seems like there's two choices; have a standing start, ignore it and do a pace lap on lap 1. That has the drawback that we don't have a pit limiter to get everyone at the same pace which could possibly cause problems.

I think a safer approach might be to use the double file start but at the last turn, drivers in the even cars slot in behind the car in front and then it's standard UKGTR start procedure.

I agree with Shark 100%

I think the rolling start worked ok but you dont have to stay in double file all the way round on the pace lap, just go into double file before the last turn like they do in the GT1 World championship.

But as a few have said here already its not the type of start which is the problem. Mistakes will happen and always will but people need to be sensible.

The etiquette in this league for all titles has been fantastic since ive been here but one thing was lacking from that race which was disappointing :-X

Can't say I like the idea of trying new start procedures in a league race, that's something to play with in fun/test races.

I couldn't believe the level of 'trust' some drivers had in this race. People dive bombing me on both sides at the same time while I followed the car in front in the braking zone. If I had attempted a pass at the same time and we had a 4 car pile up. If the standard of driving in our GTR2 races was like this I'd have left ages ago. Can't see the removal of resets had any baring on peoples overly aggressive attitudes.

Will the system let you do that? I know you can play it fast and loose during the pace lap itself, but won't people get black flags for not lining up correctly out of the final corner?

Yep.

I'm more in favour of keeping things as they are - but drastically increasing the penalty for daftness at the start of the race.

I've never viewed T1 as an opportunity to gain places, I'm looking to get through, get into single file, and then get racing.

Damn you Parle for making me do this....

I agree with Adam.  :o

Hmmm.. I'll admit I didn't think about the black flag possibility for not lining up properly  ::) :-[

Maybe an alternative is to keep the double file start with extra bonus penalties for T1 contact.

 :thumbup1:

I guess the next question is what sort of penalty?  A position penalty is worthless if the person at fault quits the race, so it's got to be something that impacts the next race for them.  A 2-5 place drop on the next race results?

Thats what I said, bit like GPL modding, 1st lap incidents cost more, than incidents in race!

Fair enough 3 wide in to T1 is not sensible but... if you look at the start i didnt get a good jump and 2 cars pulled along side so by the time we got to the corner we were side by side .  Maybe i should have rolled off but what if John rolls off aswell and the car on the other side of me , You end up with 3 cars saying "after you " "no after you" which would cause havoc for others behind.  
I just think is was one of those things that happens SOMETIMES, 2 cars in the same place at the same time.  A few people seem to be talking as if it happens all the time which i totally dissagree !
We didnt seem to have any problems witht he Indycar even though we were entering the first corner at a much higher speed.

Yes if this happens 2 or 3 races in a row then i agree there is something going wrong big time and people should be singled out and penalised.   I totally understand people being annoyed and frustrated when they have put alot of time and practice i do myself . ;)

Would be a real shame to have a single file rolling start as i dont think there is major problem , to be honest i think a standing start would be better as then we get to the first corner at a lower speed.


John ..not your fault we just got to close, more of the fault would probably lay in my hands, Maybe i should of lifted a bit and slotted in behind.

I agree with Dan.  Looking at the replay it just looked like a relatively small issue that in this case just happened to cause a number of cars to spin out - unfortunate, but it just looked like racers racing to me.

A couple at the front did seem to end up too close to each other and ideally that should have been avoided, but the end result seemed to me to be unfortunate circumstances rather than deliberately erratic or aggressive driving.

Personally, I'd prefer to go with standing starts and heavy penalties for those at fault on L1 incidents where unnecessary and avoidable contact has been the result.  If that doesn't do the trick, then I guess something else needs to be done.

At the end of the day, we're here to race - even though it's virtual - trying to make it ultra-safe in T1 will probably only shift the issue to the next corner.

Cheers, Ross.

OK, got it working, but it seems the setup will only work if saved to the sub-folder within the game. But I can't see a way to create sub-folders in game. So you must create your sub-folder structure in windows in advance and any setups downloaded and used for the first time must initially go in the main car folder before saving them to the subfolder of your choice in game. Workable but tedious. Would be better if you could just put them where you want in windows.

Absolutely Ross, never said there was any erratic or malicious driving.

We do know however that if we can change the situations that people get into then these things occur less. This is why we went to single file rolling starts in GTR2 and by spacing people out we take them more out of the situations they get themselves into on lap 1. Once racing is underway there really isn't much you can do in the procedure, but we can do something about the start that isn't penalising anyone it's just changing the situation for everyone.

I don't believe it shifts anything to the next corner if you space out the start, if anything as the lap progresses more and more spacing occurs and each corner becomes safer until everyone is pretty much in position and ready to race normally. It makes things more sedate and gives more time for everything to happen.

No one is saying we're going to race perfectly without mistakes or without competition, all we're trying to do is space people out at the start so that we get off better than we have been to allow for more racing for the other 99% of the race.

I would hope it's not a problem "introducing" a new start procedure (standing start + single file) because most of the drivers here already have experience of it from other series at SRou. Pit limiter isn't an issue, we just follow at the pace of the guy in front. 75mph in GTR, which seems fine for here too in the two cars we're running this season.

I'm happy to go with whatever's decided to be honest - it just seemed a bit like this thread was trying to erradicate the racing part of the racing! ;)  (I do know that's not the intention though!)

Cheers, Ross.

All good discussion guys....

If I go back to my original questions prior to the race!...

I think with any new sim or car/track combination we all need 2 or 3 races to get familiar with the car and racing close...

We had this with the Indycar and the Skippy ( I'm just talking iRacing BTW )

What I was proposing was trying to find ways to ease us all in!

So unlimited resets and rolling start say on race one!?

One reset and standing start on say race 2

and no resets and standing start on race 3 .....

See what I mean? then we get an opportunity to get it wrong a few times while we all learn to race these new cars in close proximity and then go back to 'proper gentlemanly racing' as is the strength of this forum and all of us!

 ;D

Sorry Martin, I just can't see any real benefit by having resets.

I want everyone to treat each potential spin/crash/screwup like it will end their race and drive accordingly, i.e. within their limits, not right on the edge.

We're all capable of driving 40 minutes without incident if we approach the race with the right attitude.

As always - happy to race whatever format you think's best Pops but while we're discussing it, I'm with Dan and Ross on this one.

People are going to crash regardless of how much we sanitise the starts. Poodling around for a clumsy lap to reach T1 at a greater speed than we would otherwise isn't the answer IMO. I have agreed in the past to the rolling approach but only when getting big powerful cars off the line and grip is the issue. With the Mazda it couldn't be easier.

I think we should stick to standing starts and penalise heavily those who are clearly at fault for causing incidents on lap one (at least a 10 place drop).

I can't believe at this stage that anyone really thinks they can have any kind of incident without ruining their own race, and for that reason I think we just need to avoid knee jerk reactions, rack up as much experience as possible with the cars and penalise anyone taking the mickey heavily.

I don't think it's a knee jerk reaction because this isn't something new that just happened for this race and we have experience from many years of organising league races that have shown us certain things.

You can say the Mazda's are easy to get off the line, but there are some drivers that react so much quicker on standing starts than others that it creates situations we'd all be better off if they weren't in, because instead of having a nice spaced field you get people overtaking on the grass, 4 abreast, all on cold tyres aiming for the same bit of tarmac when your mind hasn't got that focused yet and your periperhal vision is not that great to be trying to work out where everyone is exactly.

We've had rolling starts in UKGTR for a very long time because we discovered over time that it was the best solution to create an environment where the race could get underway with fewest incidents whilst not stopping any competitive driving then or later on. All it does is create a more spaced approach to the start, it doesn't stop overtaking.

Whilst I'm on that subject, I'd like to reiterate that you don't need to overtake or be overtaken to be having a competition!

I'm not saying that means I don't try and overtake, utter rubbish as this is a competition of course it is, but you can't go around dive bombing and racing so hard that only half the field is finishing. It's pathetic that only between 50% and 80% of us are finishing races and we should all be ashamed of the fact that the finishing rate is not nearer 90%-100% (ignoring disconnections or PC crashes).

New cars, new tracks, new game is no excuse. If you can't drive at the pace you're trying to yet then take your foot off the accelerator! I didn't manage any practice for that Mazda race and qualified with a lap I could manage and no faster in 14th. Yet I finished 3rd with a fastest lap way down on the top 2. Why? Cause I accepted that I wasn't ready to go that fast yet and decided it was better to drive slowly but comfortably over trying to go faster than I was ready for. That's the sort of mentality that everyone should be aiming for as that is what SRou was about.

The problem is that if it continues like it has been then you will lose more people like me because we're not going to turn up every week just to be divebombed at the first opportunity, or taken out at the start by someone that doesn't know the meaning of letting off the throttle, or wrecked by some hotheaded person that refuses to drive patiently or safely. We can get such uber-competitive driving elsewhere and that is not what SRou was about.

And I know I've posted a lot on here, but it's because I feel very strongly that we're in danger of losing the foundations upon which this league was built. Uber-competitive driving is creeping in too much and personally that's not why I joined up.

Here here, well said that Shark :)

Me too. :)

Me too :)

Look at my racing record on here, I pride myself in minimal dnf's!
Which is why I get frustrated when I get taken out! :)

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=7739.0

Great forum, great people, great racing!

Great discussion!   ;)

The thing with the UKGTR procedure is we are all well spaced out because we are only going when we cross the line and are using the pit limiter to help space our selves out. The thing with the iR way is we are all going green at exactly the same time so those towards the rear are approaching the first corner significantly faster than the front rows concertinering up nicely(!) for the first corner.

I had the green coming out of the last corner from the back and with no real means of knowing whats going on i.e no yellow flags or spotter warning me. Unless we can replicate the UKGTR method somehow without getting penalised in game then i think we are not going to get better at it. At least a standing start reduces this disparity in speeds aproaching the first corner and means the field is a lot more compacted which should help give better visibilty of whats going on.

Thing is we are all approaching the first corner not knowing what anyone else is doing or going to do.

Its not just the incidents that are starting to put me off, its the continual moaning on here about it trying to preach to everyone else because they are better than the rest of us and speaking down to people, from everybody. When we a reading the forum we all know whats right or wrong but people are making split second decisions when under pressure in a race and if you put people in the same situations they likely to do the same things, it ends being down to peoples nature. People are going to drive how they feel there able to drive, even if they realise they are going to fast to avoid someone/ something. Can we please just get on with the racing and not make rash decisions.

We managed a rolling start in the Indycar last season without any T1 mishaps (I think) at all.

A double file start should be (according to Pops' Big Book o' Racing) the cars on the even spots (#2, #4, #6 etc.) slotting in behind the 'odd' car on the same row unless they get off to a blinder and have the requisite overlap before the first turn. If they don't then they should ease off and roll in behind.

If you go when the car ahead goes, just like a UKGTR start, it will make for a nice clean procession into T1, nice and safe.

I'd like to give the double file start another go at Brands next time, I think we can make it work.

I'd missed that - nice post Legz, agreed, it's a blinding league!  :-*

I think you guys must be seeing something I'm not - the picture you're painting sounds pretty grim Simon. I haven't attended all of the SROU iR races so I think I must've missed the ones where the foundations of the league have been crumbling.

Are we really repeatedly having T1 pile-ups due to uber-competitive driving?

Completely agree that if we have a problem in this area there's more than enough people, vastly more experienced in simracing than I to help address it, and possibly single file rolling starts will be the answer - my point is that I don't agree the problem you're talking about actually exists yet. I didn't believe it when you suggested it before we'd started the season and one rolling start (albeit double file) and one racing incident later I'm still not convinced.

Attempting to compound the argument for rolling starts by quickly moving on to general driving standards is too easy. Nobody wants to be deliberately divebombed but how often has that actually happened? And who can't recommend letting off the throttle after the incident!?

I'm not saying at the end of the season you won't turn out to be right, but IMO you're being too negative too quickly.

I think (as I am) Shark is getting a bit cheesed off with the general amount of contact we're still having in these iRacing events despite now being in season 3 and nearly 30 races experience.

Yep, can totally understand that Pops - I just doubt whether rolling starts will be the answer. I also think Mark's bang on with what he's saying about disparity in speeds heading into T1 but lets see how we get on at Brands.

I do think we should look at heavier penalties for those trying silly moves at any point during the race though.

Thats a very good point Spanner  ;)

Would a feature request for loose grids bear any fruit, I wonder?  They worked wonders in GPL.  A driver is far less likely to make a move from 0.2 seconds behind than 0.1.

I've never submitted one so have no experience of how much attention iRacing pay to us plebs.

I know it doesn't really address people's behaviour, with which I have no problem by the way, racing is racing after all and incidents are inevitable.  In every form of motorsport, T1 is where the majority of incidents occur.  Yes it's frustrating when you're involved but I think you need to embrace the lows just as much as the highs to really appreciate the sport.

Great post Simon...  You have echoed my thoughts exactly...

I was ready to walk away from SRouk last season due to being constantly taken out of races in the Skippy last season.  If it wasn't for my team mates I wouldn't be here now.  However, I'm glad I stayed because I have since had several great races and I have you guys to thank for that.

The only reason I posted earlier was because certain people on here were too quick to blame the system and wanted change.  The starting procedure isn't the problem and I see no reason to change it after only 1 race!!!

I'm not trying to be "negative".  I'm not trying to "preach to people", and I certainly don't think I'm "better" than you guys...  Just check out my lap times.  :laugh:

But like Pops, I'm just getting cheesed off with the amount of car contact and DNFs we are still seeing. :(

I still completely agree, the system is not the problem, nor is the starting procedure, whatever is chosen, BUT, by changing the system or procedure by which you start you do change the way drivers behave so in fact you can enact a change of driving standards through changes to the system alone. :)

Hope that makes sense.

Anyway that's the last I'll say on the matter as I need to practice for the DP race! :)

Having only done two Iracing races with SROUK, both of which I crashed in!; I'm not exactly the best person to talk about this but....

Simon has a point. If you change the situation at the start, you reduce the possibility of accidents happening, however I'm not sure that Rolling starts would be as effective in Iracing as it is in GTR.   

I propose a standing start version of the GTR Roling start i.e  The first row only go when the light goes green; every row threreafter only starting when the row ahead of them has begun moving.  Once underway the even placed cars getting behind the odd numbered placed cars.

This will leave enough of a space between the rows as to at least allow the safe negotiation of the first corner.  After the first corner full racing is in effect...hoepfully. 

Any good?

Now I'm totally puzzled. I just bunged a large setup collection in that I got from the iR forums and the first one I tried loaded fine straight from the subfolder where I'd put them using ME.

Something is not right

Sometimes you can load them other times you cant, i found a way to make it work, have the setup in the route dir and the sub folder, if it does not load from the sub folder load the one in the route dir, then load the one in the sub folder it will work ok, no idea why but it does, something not right though!

Moderation is complete, this race is official.