SimRacing.org.uk

On to America for the second race of the season.

Subject to a viable number of entrants we are running two separate grids for Works and Privateers drivers this season. The Works will run on PRO Damage and Privateers will run on Intermediate Damage with the allowance of ONE shift-R reset. No Shift-Rs are allowed in practice unless authorized by the moderator. A Shift-R (fault or not) MUST be followed by a Stop & Go. A Shift-R for tyres/fuel is not allowed. Any driver taking more then ONE Shift-R OR failing to take a Stop & Go will be disqualified from the race result.

Race List = IGOR
Server(s);
Works = UKGPL_6 (now UKGPL_5 - see note)
IP address = 80.5.200.198
Privateers = UKGPL_T7_2
IP address = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 24-10-2010
Time = 21:00 UK time
Track = Riverside 1960
Variant = 67F1
Damage Model = Works; PRO / Privateers; INT
Qualifying time = 35 minutes. Don't start until 30 mins left on clock to allow everyone to join.
Race length = 50 minutes (laps 27)
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

Please note we will now be using UKGPL_5 for the Works race (Privateers remain on T7_2);
Server = UKGPL5
IP address = ping myjamesonline.net


Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R;group=277;theme=6)
The track can be downloaded from : http://dixierunners.speedgeezers.net/mbtracks/ (http://dixierunners.speedgeezers.net/mbtracks/)
Add-on’s available at : http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=251 (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=251)

Please be in IGOR UKGPL chatroom by 8:50 pm UK Time

Reserve drivers should not join the server(s) until there are only 30 minutes of qualifying left. Please restrict chat to pit messages. Moderating will be by reported incidents only, however the moderators reserve the right to review any incident with a particular emphasis on lap one. The aim is to review the race the following weekend so incident reports should be submitted within five days of the race (ie the following Friday). We're hopeful most incidents can be resolved amicably and recommend a days deep breath with a replay review before posting. A sorry in the forum won't be taken as an automatic admission of guilt by the moderators.
The Works will run on PRO Damage and Privateers will run on Intermediate Damage with the allowance of ONE shift-R reset. No Shift-Rs are allowed in practice unless authorized by the moderator. A Shift-R (fault or not) MUST be followed by a Stop & Go. A Shift-R for tyres/fuel is not allowed. Any driver taking more then ONE Shift-R OR failing to take a Stop & Go will be disqualified from the race result.

With the token system chassis strategy will be a factor. A driver must have sufficient tokens for the chassis he drives in the race.  Any driver who does not have sufficient tokens will be disqualified from the result and his tokens will be set to zero.

Chassis costs;
Lotus 20 / Eagle 17 / Ferrari 15 / Brabham 10 / Cooper 5 / Honda 3 / BRM 0

To see your current tokens hover your mouse over your total points on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R;group=277;theme=6). Ten tokens will be added when you cross the start line.

The Championship is split into two sub-divisions, namely Works and Privateers. The driver split will be;

WORKS drivers

Kinghiro (R)	Evil Clive	Hristo
Tim FMG	Steve Bird	John Roberts
Al Heller	Vosblod	Jethro
Sam B	Bartosz (Pod)	Baab (R)
Beefpie (R)	Rick N (R)	JHalli (R)
Fulvio P (R)	Tommie van O (R)	EasternSun (R)

PRIVATEERS drivers

Bernie	Burtoner	Mike Turner
Billy Nobrakes	Bookie W	Nigel Smith
Fabio (Il Lupo)	Ronnie Peterson	Paul Badblood
Martin Maddog (R)	Ross Gilles27 (R)	Hannah (R)
Nicky I (R)	Happy Al (R)	D-Rock (R)

EasternSun (R) - sub-division to be decided upon

67 Patch: The 1.3 Release of the 67mod can be used.

NOTE: Please ensure you join the correct server, due to the way we import if you start the race on the wrong server your result will not count.

Riverside International Raceway (sometimes known as RIR or Riverside Raceway) was a race track or road course in Riverside, California. The track was in operation from September 22, 1957, to July 2, 1989. The track was built to accommodate several different configurations, depending on the type of car and race length. The three options on Riverside Raceway were the long course (3.27 miles), the short course (2.5 miles), and the NASCAR (2.62 miles) course. The original racetrack had a 1.1-mile backstretch from 1957 to 1968. Grand Prix were held there in 1958 and 1960.
In 1989, after the SCORE International held its last race, the track finally closed its gates after 32 years of racing. Part of it is now a shopping centre.

The last few outings on this track ended in a screen freeze for me (and not only). Hopefully something's different this time.  ::)

It might be useful, if Clive could arrange a session for Wednesday evening.  Incidentally, I've not found a river there yet, though the car keeps looking? :'(

Well, if you like long track guides and watching videos, I uploaded a practice lap along with a detailed Riverside guide, plus updated setup pack:


Riverside 1960 – Track Guide and Onboard Lap Video (http://racingleague.co.cc/hikiwaza/track-guides/riverside-1960-track-guide-and-onboard-lap-video/)

All Hiki-Waza related of course, but I think it might be helpful to anyone who's struggling.

Thanks for the link Hristo - the videos look great!  Their sound is music to my ears, without an on board stereo to ruin it.  But your Riverside performance seems a tad too modern - beautifully orchestrated, but too damned fast! :P

Thanks H really helpful, now I just need to find the time to put a few laps in.

Riverside is a tricky track. Here's the 1967 event, which hosted the Rex Mays 300, the last race in the 1967 USAC IndyCar season.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RshOAfDgE7Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2Vbh8cvAB0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PF7mMUZqH2g&feature=related

Tom.

Thanks Tom , really enjoyed that , what a great find , worth it just for the Jim Clark interview , the greatest driver ever  :)

 

Awesome find, Tom!

I remember watching this being broadcast - don't want to worry anyone, but  :  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPbl8RWYJ18&p=FA338EF901D9D829&playnext=1&index=41

Glad you enjoyed the 1967 footage :) . I actually had it on my HD but was too lazy to upload it so I just searched for it on YouTube ;) . Nailbiting finale with Foyt only winning the champ after he retired, went back to the pits, found out his reserve car had also retired, and have the leading driver pull over to let him drive for the rest of the race!

Yikes Martin, hope that doesn't happen to me on the 24th...

Tom.

Morning gents

Going to give this round a try while I'm back home, I'll be very out of practise though.  :P

See you on track  :)

Well up for this one, been trying the BRM, seems okay but I'll probably get blown away when racing you guys.  Can't get anywhere the 1:48 I saw on H's vid, but no surprise there!

Hopefully I'll make it over the line this time and grab some tokens!!!

The Honda's a bit nuts around here, but I'll have to give H's setup a try, as my Rouen setup (no Riverside Honda setup, Rouen was the closest I could think of to Riverside) is a bit unpredictable - GH2 modified with 5th lengthened and diff adjusted.

This might amuse you lot - Was working on my setup a short while ago and got bored a little after getting the gearing about where i needed it....

So I decided to 'weld up' my diff and do some laps on race fuel to see what happened - so a 30/30/6 setup ensued which resulted in the following ;D

Riverside flying lap on Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKoD2ePaeS8)

As you'll see in the vid I'm spending most of my time in corners fighting the car and make plenty of mistakes as a result - but the thing that suprised me was the fact my 1st flying lap with this setup resulted in a 1:51.9 despite having nearly 40laps worth of fuel on board, multiple errors, and cold tyres!  :o

Now I've shared that I guess I'd better go and finish the proper setup.....

Please note we will now be using UKGPL_5 for the Works race (Privateers remain on T7_2);
Server = UKGPL5
IP address = ping myjamesonline.net

I will update the main race post.

Well, the BRM is not your usual chassis and it definitely works better with unconventional diffs. I have always find it to work very well with a high number of clutches and also less lock on the power side. It's something I saw Michiel Pompert use long ago and really liked it when I tried it. Give it a go if you want - 85/60/5, 85/45/5 or 85/60/6. You'll find it very controllable, in fact I suggest any BRM driver to try that.

I will not win this race but I will paricipate

I'm currently developing a 30/45/3 (Or is it 4?) and finding it very fast and controllable so will probably run that or something very similar  ;D
Will have a quick spin with your suggestion though  :)

I've tried all sorts of diffs with the BRM back when it was about the only car I was racing, both in UKGPL and BREASTS. For some tracks I liked using 60/60/3 or 60/45/3, but 85/60/5 and 85/45/5 were my most common choice. And it's not that I use such diffs for the other cars as you may think - I use 45/60/1 45/85/1 and the likes for most other cars. Sometimes 60/85/2 or 60/60/2 as well. But BRM is just different...

So after doing a lap worthy of 6th on the grid, and managing to take it easy at the start with everybody being supercautious, I slot in behind John Roberts on the run down to that hump-hairpin-left-b****rd. I selected neutral which I thought was first, hence me nearly stopping on the apex. Finally selected a gear and accelerated towards the next corner, where I completely forgot where the braking point was. Wheel wiped off, and I was looking forward (kinda) to this.

:/

Oh dear Jethro - although that might mean I didn't finish last.
I haven't turned the wheel in a week let alone looked at this track so decided to make the best of a bad job, sit out Qually and tootle around at the back keeping out of harms way.
Well I went slightly wrong on the first lap and found myself driving on the wrong side of a very very long wall. After that a freeze put paid to my mysery.
Anyway will fiind time to do some practice for the next one.

Was having a great battle with Clive (How on earth was the Waza doing the final turn so fast?! :o ) until a screen freeze on about lap 4  >:(

That was shaping up to be one hell of a battle too, Clive was killing me into the final turn every lap but I was pulling back ahead an equal(ish) amount from T1 thru to the hump each lap too....
Gutted to leave in such an ignominous way and hope my car didn't hang around long enough to cause any probs  :(

Quallied 2nd - running 2nd & enjoying a nice tussle with john when along came the SCREEN-FREEZE. Great. Doesn't this track have a bit of a reputation for freezing? And how come whenever FMG gets screen freeze, so do I?? :blink: I know it's part of online racing & all that, but it does make the whole thing (even more of) a lottery when this happens.

My screen stopped too.....right when I hit the barrier  :(

My flaming car bounced back on to track and Tom (KH) ran into it, but appeared to continue, hope there wasn't too much damage.

A fairly miserable race on a track that I hadn't had a lot of practice on. A poor quali followed by a couple of spins on the first lap put me way behind the pack but I soldiered on until a screen freeze with about 6 laps to go put me out of my misery.  I was being lapped at the time so I hope I didn't cause anybody any grief.

not CTD for me ,but it disconnected from server

After a PB in qualifying, I couldn't quite make a good start and that allowed Tom to take the lead, and he proved quicker than I expected in the early laps.

Although I could close up on him in some places, he would just motor away on the straights, so I had to try and put as much pressure as possible. Just when I was able to close in a bit and possibly have a run in his slipstream on the backstraight, his engine expired and I inherited the lead.

It went very well for a while, the car working great, the tires within reasonable temperatures, but after 6 or 7 laps it started going downhill for some reason. I think I was getting a bit bored and that caused a loss of concentration, but there was also a problem with my front-end under braking and turn-in - it was a bit too responsive and unpredictable.

This led to one off just after the esses in the braking for the slow uphill right-hander. Then a few laps later I clipped the wall on the inside of T1 after the front-end just gripped more than I expected. As soon as the car washed off out of control to the right, I just waited for the impact. It was a serious head-on impact and although the suspension and tires didn't suffer much damage, the engine was seriously damaged.

I could barely accelerate and the engine was hardly managing to rev up in 4th gear even on the longest straight. This allowed Rick, then Evil, then JR to pass me within the next few laps. Just when Juha was closing up and was probably going to pass me as well before the finish, I got disconnected. There were 5 laps to go.

It turned out we all got disconnected and I suspect the server froze completely. I don't know why nobody seems to remember, but we've always had screen freeze problems in UKGPL with this track. I don't know if it's down to server settings or something else, but something needs to be done before we run this track again. Someone said in chat that it runs fine in other leagues and Privateers didn't seem to have a problem either, so I suspect it's down to server settings, but who knows.

We didn't seem to have any freezes in the Privateers but all joking aside it might have something to do with the spacing of the cars - its tight in the Works not in the Privateers so each screen has less going on. Just a thought.  Cheers to Tim for hosting us.

BTW I did a PB in Qually as well - and I wasn't last on the grid  ;D - mind you my PB was 2:00.55  :'(

They both had the same grid settings Paul. Well done on the PB by the way - a PB is a PB, doesn't matter on the time.

I need to check the server replay (if there is one) but a re-run for Works is looking likely. IF this happens does anyone object to the xmas break (not actually on xmas day or anything silly)? The alternative is to tack the race on to end of season, either way it might also be subject to a change of track dependent on testing.

My race started with the decision of which car to race?  Went for the faster but more perilous from a choice of two, after on-line practice. ???  

The vista at Riverside, is one to savor, as I've a track addon, which mimics the local landscape beautifully, and I was on form for Sir Jack.

Practice started well, and I was just winding up for a quick lap, when I was unceremoniously ejected from the track, twice!  Hmm . . . t'was time to check the carset - remove custom car paint, throw on some 2D helmets - ejected again. Reluctantly removed majestic landscape, and was readmitted, but into a completely different world!  Came to the kink in the main straight, and well, sort of de-kinked!  A DQ to turn around, so I pressed on regardless, behind the track barrier.  What would Sir Jack say?  It was a half lap before I could rejoin the bloomin' thing again!  What kind of a horrible universe was this, I'd landed up in.  Sob . . . sniffle!  Had a few minutes left, so promptly blew the motor.  "Stop the world, I want to get off!"  Luckily, Sir Jack, and the nice nurses at the asylum calmed me down, and I was ready to race. ::)

It briefly looked like a nice battle was shaping up, between myself and poleman Fabio, who'd blitzed the field, in his Ferrari.  But I quickly became too familiar with the scenery . . . a couple of times.

The track no longer seemed odd, but my car did.  One final off, and the thud discoed me from a cruel universe, where I  didn't belong.  Grumble!  And it seems, I was not alone . . .   :-\

I've no probs with a crimbo break race aslong as you don't clash with the P&G fun race being planned (Here at Riverside as it so happens!)
Would like to re-run here if poss, but if there's no certainty of a reliable race for all then a different track would be in order I feel  :)

What's the point of a re-run if we face the same track (or server) problems? I suggest until it's figured out what's the problem, we either run a different track or use a different server.

All that if it's impossible to recover race results of course.

I'm agreeing with you H  ;D ;D ;D

Really?

14 drivers start.  Maybe 3 or 4 are individually discoed before the mass disconnect.  That means ~10 drivers are still competing.  The P1 and P2 cars (maybe more) completed at least 22 (maybe 23) of 27 laps (81%) before the melt down occurs.  And yet a re-run is likely?

Remember the race we did that accidentally ran only 12 of the announced 36 laps.  Those who missed the impromptu chat line stating that the race length was setup wrong ran with 3 times the needed fuel weight.  That race was only 33% of the planned length yet was judged a fair race and not worthy of a re-run.

With 81% completion I don't see why you should jump over option 1 and 2 to get to 3:

--reconstruct the result based on the replay, if available;
--declare the race to be red flagged at the end of the preceding lap and take the final results from that lap; or
--declare the race null and void and arrange for it to be run again.

And oh yeah, in keeping with full disclosure... yes folks, I was that P1 guy!   >:(

Aha ;) - as I say no ruling yet. Have to check if there is a replay first. It is 'under consideration' and further advices will follow. The Red Flag guidance is here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette), 'reconstruct the result based on the replay, if available' .

The problem is the server saves the replay only when the race is finished (or even when the race session ends and quits the track?). Judging how we all got disconnected at once and how the server kept showing "5 laps remaining" on Igor racelist, it must've locked up completely (screen freeze like what usually happens to drivers).

Without a replay we can't reconstruct the results, with the exception of the first few positions (you 1st, evil 2nd although he's not going to admit!, jr 3rd, me 4th and juha 5th), without any real known time gaps in between and without an official result file to import into the system.

I don't mind if this is done, because it was completely my fault for throwing away the lead and I can't demand a rerun, but without knowing which drivers were in all the point-taking positions at the time of or 1 lap before the server crash, it doesn't seem like a good choice as it will disrupt the championship for some.

"getting a bit bored"

Charmed, I'm sure!!!!

"We didn't seem to have any freezes in the Privateers "

Yes we did. See my post above.

;D
The BRM takes some work to set up right as it's so different, that combined with my habit of discovering the balence was still wrong through massive crashes was getting old, fast!
Was great fun once I finally had it doing what I wanted though ;)

Sorry Michael - I wondered where you had gone. When you caught me and pulled out a lead I was determined to calm down and catch you so I concentrated... and span :(

Wierdly my steering wheel short shifted me a couple of times without any intervention from me which gave me a few trips across the countryside. Damn cheap wheels. Never mind. Fun though.

I did 15 laps prep for this event, and it showed. Off the pace in qualifying, I hit Bernie early on lap 1 and spent the race of the race toiling in midfield, trying to keep the car out of the barriers. Due to others' problems I was up to 5th at halfway when I ripped a wheel off in the esses and had to retire.

The next round is at the Green Hell so I don't expect much from that either!

Hi all,

Short race for me, but a fun one. I was a good two seconds back in quali so didn't really expect too much for the race, but everybody seemed to be taking it real easy on the first lap and this allowed me to blast by Al AND Hristo before the wavy straight! Incredible, I was in the lead... After that the race just started settling down with Hristo starting to put pressure on me, when my header went belly up just as I was about to shift. I didn't abuse the engine at all IIRC so must have been plain bad luck.

About a rerun on this track, Ginetto can fix it so there will not be any more freezes. He has just recently done it for Thruxton where we were racing with GPLRACER, and also did it in the past for Zeltweg and maybe  few other tracks. He's finished with all GT tracks at the moment so he may have time, just send him a PM or something at SRMZ.

Bye, Tom.

Privateers race at Riverside: 27 laps driven, 27 laps completed, not a screen freeze in sight. Great server.

Commiserations to Fabio and his fleet footed Ferrari who really deserved the victory. I kept him in sight but was never going to catch him. BUT he caught a dose of Hristos boredom and lost concentration with 2 laps to go allowing me to steal the victory. Great race.

Lesson learned. For me speed is great but counts for little without concentration and focus for the whole race.

It could have been a great day to remember: my first UKGPL victory in a 67s and even a hat trick but... :death:

Server was OK: not even a latency or a quality problem.

On Saturday night I just discovered how big is my feeling with this track and how great is the setup I got from the Italian recordman on Riverside. :wub:

I had an old PB, 1.58.XX, but on Saturday I immediately cut down 6" on it  :scared: :scared:

Then, on Steve's server just before the race, I got my PB, 1.50.218: it's my first negative rank on a non-papy track :jumpjoy:

On qualify I managed to get the pole time on the first 20', then I just tried some laps with the full tank (I never did it before...)

At the race start I was immediately having "braccino" (it means short arm in english: in Italy it's said when you are fearing to win...) so I had a quite bad start, with a small contact with Martin Hunt, and the first lap was very hard, with his engine's roar in my ears...

Then it was a little bit better but, as soon as I got a quite big gap from the second driver, "braccino" came up again and again...

On lap 14, while I was lapping Hannah on the slowest corner of the track, I spun so Ronnie pass me and got P1.

Then it was easier for me (maybe I'm not used to P1  ;)) and in lap 17 I passed Ronnie, after setting the FL of the race, and I finally lapped Hannah without any issue...

Then "braccino" catched definitevely myself: after lap 23, with a gap of 27.51" from Ronnie, I was starting to drive slower, to avoid any mistake...

On lap 25 I went wide on the hairpin after the Esses, I hit the wall and lost the left wheels: Shift+r with Stop'n'Go... :oops:

Ronnie passed me and I tried to catch again P1 but, in only two laps, it would have been a mission impossible and so it ended. :cursing:

The final two laps were fantastic: Ronnie closed every small room to stop my attemps to pass him and I had to be careful to avoid any contact that would have ended the race for both  :fencing:

WD to Ronnie and... shame on me :censored:

CU all on the next one

Long Live GPL - Long Live UKGPL

Tough luck again Fabio I could not believe my luck when I saw you coming out of the pits. The final two laps were indeed fantastic and really exciting. I knew you were faster so I tried to take a line which got me into the corners on the inside forcing you to take the long way round. I think I was fair and appreciate that you were equally fair in not risking us both failing to finish an excellent race. I'm looking forward to watching a replay of those final laps again when its available.

Great idea Tom, I'll let him have a breather then ask.

Firstly Works. OK the bad (or good depending on your perspective) news is there is no replay/report available. Under the circumstances I have provisionally rescheduled the race for Sunday 19 December at the usual time. We also have the same track pencilled up but that will be subject to testing and any fixes needed.

Turning to the Privateers the results are uploaded and you can now submit any incident reports, close of play Friday 29 October please. I have checked the situation regarding Sh/R's-Sng's. All clear bar one; I have Nigel taking a second Shift/R at 15m57s, this will result in an automatic race disqualification as part of the moderating process. I will put the replay up in the usual place shortly.

A shame that this race ended as it did for so many people, and more importantly, it ended for me just when victory was a tantalisingly close possibility!!!!!

From pre race banter I deduced that a race pace of around 1:49 should be competitive, but some early practice laps proved that iwas not using the correct lines and I bent several barriers with impressive consistency  :-\

It was not until qually started that I began to find the right line for and get some decnt laps together.

I must confess that the pace at the start almost caught me out as everyone seemed to be crawling along!!! But eventually everyone got their act together and we picked up the pace. I was tailing Tim in his BRM and was quite comfortable, waiting for the fuel load to drop and the pack to spread out a bit.
I could afford to take it easy through the bends as Tim said because I had the final corner nailed and would gain over a second on Tim through there without really trying  ;D
That little advantage bit me in the a** when tim went all wobbly on entry to that final corner and slowed suddenly I had to throw the waza into a spin to avoid him and keep it away from the barriers. Well, that sent tyre temps sky high and allowed Rick through in his Eagle to pass both of us. Something I was to regret later.... :-\

I cruised for a couple of laps to let the tyres cool and slowly hauled Tim in again, only for him to vanish just as I was getting in range. Tom v O retired and so did a few others , now I know that was probably from server probs. Then John was seen lurking in the grass and Rick and myself were 2nd and 3rd and I was closing on Rick every lap. Then ..shock!!    Hristo was crawling down the straight just as I caught up with Rick, but I could not quite take advantage and get past into 1st spot. The next 10 laps or so, were a cat and mouse game where I could catch Rick but not quite get into position for a passing move, although it got close a couple of times.
With about 7 laps to go I decided to up the pressure and try and gain the win for HER.
I could lap quicker than Rick was going but I did not know if he was on the limit in that Eagle, although there were enough "wobbles" to indicate that he was trying reasonably hard  ;) just as things were going to get interesting Rick vanished, as did everyone else, then it all went black!! I know that night falls quickly in the desert, but that was ridiculous!!!!

I was very pleased to join the server without problems , although I did have a fright when my screen froze in iGOR and I had to re boot  ::)

A lack of tokens due to my previous none start saw me take the BRM and lots of practise laps needed to get it up to speed . Comes the race and thinking the H16 to be a gas guzzler and had no idea how much fuel I would need, I "tanked it up" Got off the line OK but took it easy into the S's on cold tyres , not wanting to visit the Armco on that mad turn 4? but then got a rear end clout which put my off track and at the back of the field, then trying too hard to catch up I lost the rythm and made several more mistakes and had to take a S/R at one stage , not sure if my steering was out but couldnt seem to get anywhere near my practise times .
Had fun passing people then spinning off and having to re pass the same cars , I think I went past hannah about 4 times and noted how much her driving has improved  :) (Not convinced the Lotus is the car of choice for you though hannah,  there are better cars for L drivers  ;) )  

somehow finished on the podium so not a bad day out and enjoyed the BRM for once (Thanks to H for the set up advice )

Noted I had almost enough fuel left to do another race  :D

  

OK I still have to view my replay, but I'm  absolutely certain I will be DQ'd from this one. It was 3 Shift'Rs
I can only claim I was caught up in the excitement ! If the replay shows that I spoiled anyones prospects by staying on track I shall fall on my sword, and apologise whole heartedly. Everything seemed good on lap 1, I was tagging along in 4th, nice and steady, then the car responses became inconsistent. Don't know if the tyres reached meltdown or not- must get Prib. So it went for a while - a few good laps followed by a Shift'R.(Yes I know now I shouldn't :) ). Then everything settled down until 2 or 3 laps from the end when- wait for this -a mouse ran over my foot and my knee-jerk reaction caused a stack of boxes under the desk to fall on my pedals lol. If you saw me pulled over on the outside of the left hand hairpin- thats why. Connection was good, really steady- but I had bad understeer and couldn't get good corner exits. Turn 8's banking was the only thing giving me good corner speed anywhere.
Well done to the podium guys, and enjoy that sixth place Paul.

Connection problems kept me away unfortunately, congrats to the top finishers and survivors.  :P

Good fun while it lasted, though I continued my recent string of dismal results. Qualified near the back again, thanks to lack of practice and skill  ::). Made an okay start, passing a couple of cars but slid backwards in the race. Ended up having a mighty battle with Juha, which was actually me just driving a wide BRM to keep him behind, slowing us both down and allowing Tom to close  :angel:. Eventually, Juha had a drag race with me on the straight and I ran wide on the kink before the last bend to give him space. Soon after all four wheels were on the grass, and the inevitable crash into the barriers occurred, one wheel missing, race over.

I didn't realise the server crashed and have no problems about a rerun, though I will be on holiday during that time meaning I can't thrash you all next time around  ;). Looking forward to the madness at the Nurburgring.

I wouldn't say lack of skill, Sam, judging from so many races in the past, so it must be lack of practice. BTW, I don't know if you got my whisper in game chat during Qualifying, but you were warping really bad. Juha also said after the race that it was impossible to close up on you for that reason. Are you on wireless? I remember Jethro warping like that when he was on wireless before.

Oops, I didn't realise that was directed at me H! For the past few weeks, I have been using an ethernet cable so I expected to at least have a stable connection. I must admit, everyone was warping a bit from my perspective but I assumed it was the server given what happened at the previous spec race. Having said that, my latency was unusually high this race so big apologies all round for my lack of awareness. I'm also getting the occasional FPS drop on my laptop despite the speedstep being disabled and original graphics. I miss racing on my desktop PC, it made GPL so much less painless!

I must admit, I am finding it harder to find the time practicing this season which might explain my lack of pace lately. Could just be that the competition's improved mind  :D.

I was ejected like most were with 5 to go, gutted as I was in 3rd, albeit due others having issues.  Disappointed we can't declare results and are instead going for a re-run, but totally understand why. I have experienced similar ejections in the past, but on those occasions only one at a time seemed to be thrown out...I'd assumed it was something with my settings.

Did anyone notice me warping?  I am running without wires and always have been.  The other cars I got close to all seemed fine from my view.

I was surprised I managed to make it through err...22? laps without hitting anything, I had lots of crashes in practice.  Set a pb in qual then opted for a cautious start (particularly after issues at previous race).  Was passed by Jethro at the start, but he took himself off a few corners later.  Was then passed by John who seemed to be a bit quicker but due a few spins from both of us, ended up behind me. I was wondering whether I'd manage to keep him at bay when we were all ejected.

Two races on and despite taking the BRM for both I still have no tokens!  I know it doesn't matter but seems ironic.

Enjoyed the race though, track seemed a good challenge too.

BTW Cheers for the classic clips, loved the Clark footage, wish I'd have been around to see him race, seemed like he was in a class of his own and only drove as fast as he needed to.  I saw the Senna tribute on Top Gear, all the past and present drivers singing his praises, but couldn't help wondering if Clark was better?

You were 3rd? I thought it was Rick leading, followed by Evil, JR, me and Juha. I don't remember seeing you pass me, hmm.

And yes, you were warping, though not as bad as Sam. I noticed it during Qualifying.

Sadly we will never know , different era's . Both drivers excelled and were the best of there time , the only thing I would say is (and having seen both drive ) Clark never seemed to be trying that hard, he made it look so easy , almost boring to watch until you realised just what he was doing ,though he said himself he didnt understand why he was so much faster than the others .  smooth as cream .

In contrast Senna always looked as if he was on the edge , escpecially quallifying . but would have loved to see them both on track , dont think Clark would have approved of Sennas driving mannersthough  ;)

No I was third  ;D

Clark vs Senna hahahahahahahahahah. In the Brazilians dreams in his dreams.....

So race postponed until a) track is sorted and b) date confirmed?

Senna was voted the greatest racing driver of all time by over 200 other F1 drivers, both young and old:

http://f1greatestdrivers.autosport.com/

I don't think it's possible to compare different eras and particularly in Clark's days, one would rarely go on the limit because it was so dangerous and the cars were so fragile. His talent was/is undeniable, but competition wasn't as pure back then - looking after the car, respecting those around you (they were friends off the track, more or less) and not going faster than needed was how races were conducted.

Plus Clark never really fully understood why he's so fast, although he probably guessed right it has to do with concentration and he seemed to be much beyond other drivers in that respect. Senna on the other hand was a very conscious and aware driver (and human being), and he purposely pushed his own boundaries to limits where others wouldn't dare (or be able to) go.

It's a shame Clark died so early, he could've gone on to race many more years and achieve many great things.

Its all a matter of personal opinion. But wait a minute the biggest disgrace to formula one figures at number 2. If you include cheats then yes I suppose the likes of Schumacher and Senna will be considered highly by some. Multiple world champions they yes but great drivers NEVER in my opinion. Clark was a multiple world champion and a great driver, in my opinion the greatest of all time so far. Good to see Ronnie in there at 19 and ahead of Andretti as well, clearly some people understand the meaning of a great driver even though he was nver world champion.

I think we're getting OT here, but what the hell...

It all depends on what you consider "great" to be, personally I agree with Ronnie's sentiments - the way a driver conducts himself, on and off the track, has to be part of the equation. As a result I admire Senna and Schumacher but can't put them above Clark after some of the the things they did in their career; Suzuka '90 for Senna, any number of things for dear old Michael. I also feel that Senna's death has somewhat enhanced his legend and allowed people to forget his misdemeanours.

Although I was too young to watch him at the time, my all-time greatest has to be Gilles Villeneuve. He was as fast as anyone from any era, a superb racer and scrupulously fair. And a true gent by all accounts - that's got to be worth something.

Agreed gilles! But as I say its all a matter of opinion. Except in Schumachers case of course, only joking. Now I really should get some work done today.

Well, I like Clark and I like Senna, but who's better?



There's only one way to find out!!!!!


FIGHT!!!!

 :fencing:

 ;D

I can't believe Surtees at 23!  Top 10 minimum!

It's about driving ability, talent and results. Regardless of what Schumacher did, you can't deny his abilities and achievements throughout his career. I was never a Schumacher fan, but I can't deny the obvious.

As for Senna, how and when exactly did he cheat in his career? If you're referring to the feud with Prost, that's hardly about cheating. None of his 41 wins are based on any form of cheating, unlike Schumacher's.

You say it's about personal opinion, but yours seems to be based more on emotion than anything else.

Gilles, lots of people fail to understand what situation Senna was put in and it's completely different to anything Schumacher has faced in his career. FIA was run by a certain frenchman who was doing his best to make another frenchman come on top. When Senna came up through the rankings and opposed a challenge, they had to resort to dirty tricks to stop him. It all escalated in 89 and 90 was a logical consequence. The alternative was for Senna to give up his dream and career, and let those bastards get what they wanted.

As for outside behaviour, Senna was more of a human being than anyone else I've seen in my life. It's not so obvious though, unless you dwell and research into his life.

I'll take them anyway I can. Like Evil said 1:49 should have been competitive so I was pretty pleased with my nearly sub 2:00 ;D

Blimey, what I have done?!

I knew that would get some debate going!  Sorry if this is the wrong place for it.

I admired Senna, but given I am British I was always cheering for Mansell, who in my view was one of the few who could beat Senna, even in an inferior car (Hungary 89 for one, where he won from 12th).  Mansell and Prost were pretty much the only ones not to bow to Senna's intimidation, which is possibly what Ronnie was referring to.

Cheers,
Bob.

:wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub: :wub:

I was nearly 17 years old when I watched his fatal crash live on TV: one of the worstest day in my life... :'( :'(

I cant think of any other driver who was respected so much globaly by his colleagues as Jimmy Clark

His achievements outside of F1 were legendary , much more than can be said for either Senna or Schummaker put together.

Statistics of F1 show the most succesful drivers , but does that mean because you have won the most WC's you are the "best" driver ?
Sterling Moss for e.g. never won a WC (came pretty close a few times ) but few would argue against his greatness .

Schumaker was beaten fair and square by Damon Hill twice  ( but got robbed of one title),  now Damon was good but you wouldnt bet money on him winning if he had the same car as Schumaker !

Clark had a habit of winning in cars that were not always that competative , certainly no one else had much success driving Lotus cars.

Often wonder what he must think about the modern day "safety mad" bunch who wont drive tracks without massive run off areas , use of  space suits , all those driver aids , etc .

We know what Moss thinks of today's patsies , but he's too much of a gent to say it out loud .

On the subject of Schumaker , he does make Nico Rosberg look very good  ;D

I agree that Senna's motives were different to Schuey's. Senna was shafted by the FIA at Suzuka in '89, he was robbed of a fine victory (his chase of Nannini at the end was incredible) on a technicality. Then in 1990 they left him on the dirty side of the grid which lead to his poor start. Whilst I sympathise with that, the way he rammed Prost like that was dangerous and indefensible. Taking someone else's life into your hands, just to make a point to the FIA, was stupid. That's why I don't put him above Clark. He's still a legend though - way ahead of Schumacher in my reckoning anyway.

It seems to me, there's a great divide in the process of deciding the greatest of the great in Formula 1.  There's the pre-sponsorship era, and the modern era, with it's added necessities.

From the earlier age, where talent and a bit of money could set you on your way, we seem to dwell more on recent drivers, and specifically, those within memory for some of us.  It's Sir Stirling who first comes to my mind.  Unlike Jim, he drove a wide variety of F1 cars, so his ability, and his adaptability, were proven many times over.

Judging by modern standards though, Jim Clark was the greater of the two.  He picked the right team, drove to perfection, and won 2 titles.  He was certainly the shrewder of the two.  Moss often chose to drive for an underdog, but this didn't make him any less great at the time. ;)

With the modern era, a drivers talent now extends beyond the track, and into the commercial world that feeds it.  Nigel Mansell isn't the first name to be mentioned amongst the modern greats, with only one title, though he certainly had talent!  Alain Prost on the other hand, has three titles. He usurped Mansells seat twice, to equip himself for this.  It was done I imagine, with tact and diplomacy.  So, does this make him the better driver?  Perhaps so.

Senna and Prost went head to head at Mclaren, with little to choose between them.  And it seems likely Prost was the shrewder of the two, behind the scenes, so it's gratifying that Senna is recognised as the greater. :)

Sad, that Schumacher and Senna spent so little time, competing together.  But it seems to me, each era leaves us with only one great name, and they were destined to be separate.

So how do we reconcile these two eras, where sportsmanship, and driving for the underdog, were once a viable part of professional conduct.  And where politics, personality, and maneuvering, are now a driving force behind who sits where?

I think you'd have to look at performance - how well each driver did during their career.  And how few notable mistakes they made.  Consistency is a mark of greatness.  And of coarse, dating back to earlier times, did the driver survive for long enough for consideration!  We are all a part of posterity.
 

I don't know about Schumacher, but do you really know about Senna's achievements outside the track or you're just saying that? And what has Clark done outside the track? I'm not aware, though I've read and seen a lot about him, and he was really a genuine kind person, and everyone liked him, but I don't know about any achievements outside the motorsport world.

And BTW, I was never a Schumacher fan, I was initially a Senna fan, then Hill was my favorite until he retired, then I cheered for Montoya. Since then I've never really been a fan of anyone. And although I agree on all you say about Schumacher, you simply can't deny his abilities if you've watched closely all these years.

In terms of competitive cars, Senna had the best car in only 1 season of his career - 1988, but he also had the best opponent of the time in the same car. There are very few occasions when this happened to anyone else, in all the history of the sport. In most of his other seasons he drove the 2nd or 3rd best car on the grid.

In any case, it's really impossible to compare drivers from different eras directly. It's more appropriate to name the best driver in a certain era. In terms of extracting the absolute maximum of a car and doing it over a race distance, and more importantly - over a whole career - I think that's the reason why Senna was voted #1 by all those other F1 drivers (some of which are on the list, and some of which raced and have known drivers of different eras).


True, it's not an excuse for his move, but I wouldn't call it cheating. Nobody else was ever put in such a situation, certainly not Clark anyway. That's why one cannot judge it so easily, it was an absurd situation to be in.

There's one similar season I can think of that went in a similar fashion, though in a lesser scale. For anyone who knows what went behind in 2003, Montoya and Williams (and Michelin runners in general) were put in a similar situation, with the F1 government doing anything it can mid-season onwards to deny them a chance against Schumacher and Ferrari, so they don't lose the title. It was a disgrace what went on behind curtains in that year which was Montoya's best chance to win the title (and he really deserved it).

It was in a similar way later on when Bernie (not ours though) decided Schumacher had enough and it's time for Alonso and Renault to take over. One can notice something similar since Hamilton came into F1. But again, I don't think it measures in scale to what happened in 88-91.

@maddog I completely agree with all you said, except for Prost being on par with Mansell. Prost might've not had fiery performances on track (except in his earlier career), but he rather had Clark's approach in extracting as much from the car as necessary and nothing over it. His style was ultra smooth and yet fast.

And I also agree that you can only divide eras and name a best driver in each one, and that only driving performance should be taken into account when looking for the greatest driver of all time. I'm pretty sure those 217 F1 drivers did something like that and I would imagine they know better than us since they actually communicated, worked and raced with those on the top 40 list. Moss, Stewart and other older drivers were certainly included in the voting.

BTW, if we step outside F1 as it is and go to Grand Prix racing before the second WW, there were so many exceptional drivers. Given how early F1 cars were basically slightly improved pre-WW2 cars, Nuvolari and Caracciola should rank amongst the greatest. It's simply that there wasn't an established category that makes ranking them very easy, but their feats on the track were remarkable.

I saw Senna race a lot during his early career, especially in Formula Ford & FF2000 & it was pretty obvious then that he was an extraordinary talent (especially in wet conditions). Later I did some work for some of the teams that knew him in FF & the people I spoke to said he was a top bloke & a real gent (as opposed to some of the stories they related about Mansell!) I've probably mentioned it before but the time that really sticks in my mind is the 1984 British GP at Brands - I was standing at Paddock Bend for 1st Practice & on his first run Senna's entry speed was so quick compared to everyone else that all the spectators ran back from the fence in panic! :D

Actually even more off-topic but another one who really stood out in club racing was Johnny Herbert - I'm certain if he hadn't had that terrible accident in F3000 he'd have gone on to achieve much greater things in F1. Interesting that H mentioned Damon Hill too as he seems to be hugely underrated as a driver - didn't see him bike racing but saw him have some really impressive club races in his early career.

Yes, I've read about how talented and promising Johnny was before his crash, such a shame. It seems to have broken him mentally in some way.

As for Hill - had he started at a young age with karting and gone through all regular steps of 4wheel racing, I think he would've achieved much greater things. Starting in F1 at the age of 31 and achieving what he did is remarkable. I still believe he was the better driver at Williams in 1993, although Prost was probably in his own decline.

Though its impossible to compare drivers from different eras , we all have our favourites , my favourite drivers over the years weren't neccesarily world champions although they could have been given the right circumstances .
There have been so many really great drivers , impossible for me to name a favoutite from the years I was an active supporter , but for pure driving talent and pleasure to watch Ronnie Peterson or Jochen Rhindt would take some beating .
Never saw Gilles drive except for his first drive in a McLaren at a wet Silverstone GP but his performances in the hopelessly uncompetative Ferrari were the stuff of legend . Dont have much interest in the modern stuff , I think the advance of technology has ruined the sport to the point where it has become almost boring to watch , a bit like slot car racing  ::)

  

A million miles from modern F1 and the debate about "best driver ever" but watching these two clips of cars that actually have some character, and are NOT clones of each other running in precise processional ( slot car) style lap after lap perhaps shows where technology has damaged entertainment in modern motorsport.

So many classes of motorsport now have become straightjacketed.....Vive la difference!!!! where a good driver in a completely outclassed car could  really show his ability, even if he did not win. Whereas today without a huge budget and 2000 boffins winning a GP is just a dream?? :-\

Back in the 60's it was not uncommon for F1 drivers to moonlight in Saloons and  GT classes at weekends, something that the pressure of the modern F1 circus does not allow until, like Coulthard etc. they step down from Bernie's ( Ecclestone)  game.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5UfZ2Mnugk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJfYO4qKAso&feature=related

It just so happens that the driver of the pale grey A40 ( in the midfield pack) is someone I know...and he is 70 yrs old!! and the Waza in training in the red and Gold Lotus Cortina is his son.

I agree, though ironically a couple of years ago Damon started turning up at a 100cc arrive & drive karting series that my friend regularly races in. I think the idea was to give his son some of the karting experience he'd missed - though it was great to hear that Damon was completely down-to-earth & also took part in numerous kart races. Sadly that means I now have to endure my friend's regular boasts about how he beat Damon Hill! ;)   

Now there's a guy who knows how to enjoy Quarry  ;D

Sorry Hristo but we beg to differ. In my opinion my opinion I repeat, I think your wrong. Dress it up any way you want but Michael Schumacher was and is a cheat. The fact that his team mate/s were NEVER allowed to compete with him, often having to give way in fact, makes determining his actual driving abilities difficult. The only level comparison we have is his current form and Rosberg is making him look less good. As for Senna deliberately driving into another driver is totally and utterly insane. Getting back to the point, there are numerous drivers who could be described as great someone mentioned Gilles Villeneuve and I would'nt disagree. I am a huge Ronnie Peterson fan obviously and I would call him a great driver compared to Schumacher and Senna even though he never won a world championship. But having watched them all through the years, as much as I regard Peterson as my personal favourite of all time, Jim Clark was the greatest. The man could drive and win in anything and did. He was a genius behind the wheel whether in championship or non championship races. But its just my opinion and its not the end of the world if people disagree with me.

Unfortunately true , cant deny his talent ,  but results and statistics dont tell the whole story  :o

 

It's a separate thing - his dirty moves and his driving abilities. It doesn't take much to see he's a great driver from any of his onboards and his race performances throughout his career. It really depends what "greatest driver" means exactly. If it's about driving the car, then you can't ignore Schumacher, despite his bad moves.

Calling Senna insane for driving into another driver just means you're judging it from the side without (trying to) stepping into his shoes. He didn't do because he lost his mind, on the contrary, so that rules out insanity. He was anything but that.

There have been so many bad moves over the history of F1 and through the whole field, but people judge Senna harshly because he was in the spotlight and because he's not expected to do anything wrong. Same for Schumacher really, though his motives were rather different and his bad moves - numerous.

I agree with what you say about Clark, but as I said earlier, he rarely had to go on the ragged edge or rather - he couldn't afford to given the high level of risk back then. Gilles Villeneuve was probably the first who really went near and beyond the limit consistently, but it bit him back. With the safety increasing over the years, drivers could explore the limits more often and that's where Senna excelled beyond anyone else.

Talking of great racing - I may aswell share this with you lot aswell - it's from last weekends race ;)

Ozy V8 awesomness (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpEp3janpEU) - Enjoy one of the last bastions of real racing left at the top level  :thumbup1:

I watched that entire race yesterday (Thankyou Youtube  :angel: ) and all 2 hours of it were fantastic  8)

Keeping this freindly I hope, but I just see it the other way round to you Hristo. For me driving at the limit was infinitely harder and related to driver ability in Clarks day. Would Senna and Schumacher have coped without the pampered cars of their eras which allow drivers of modest ability to have a go these days, I don't think so. We will never agree on Schumacher the man is a joke. Senna for me was a great but flawed driver. I'm no Prost fan but potentially he could have killed him, not the act of a sane person. Just my opinion emotionl or not. Its not very difficult to find a great quote regarding Clark but its very hard to find a bad one. The same cannot be said of you know who.

"Clark came through at the end of first lap of the race so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident"

- Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jimmy Clark at Spa-Francorchamps 1967

http://www.f1-grandprixhistory.net/Clark.html

It is beyond doubt that the modern cars are much tougher physically and mentally than the cars of the past. 80s and early 90s in particular were probably tougher than any other period in the history of the sport, because on one hand they had very high G-Forces, similar to today's, and on the other - much bumpier tracks, stiffer chassis, longer races, manual gearboxes and clutches. The stress was immense and I don't think any of the 60s drivers were fit enough to cope with the cars of the 80s and later.

On the other hand the difficulty in the 60s (as well as 70s and 50s) was coping with the FEAR of having an fatal accident, something which (sadly) happened much too often back then. From that point of view those were really great people who risked their lives every time they would go out on the track. But only someone stupid would have driven a car on the ragged edge back then - they would rather only go as fast as necessary, often looking after the car as well. For Clark it was just naturally easier to reach closer to the limit than the rest, but I don't think he ever took big risks and it was probably a mechanical failure that led to his death.

Would he (and others of his time) done well if they were born (or lived long enough) to race later? Probably, but their approach would've changed. I have no doubt that the same is valid for any driver of a later period such as Senna, had they been born earlier. The ability to focus and control the car remains, regardless of the time period.

Again, different eras, different requirements. And no hard feelings of course, just discussing.  :)

P.S. Great read about Clark BTW, thanks!

P.P.S. Oh and another thing - driving skill was much bigger factor back then when the cars were so unreliable and uncertain, as well as different from one another. With the cars going closer and closer to each other mechanically and aerodynamically later on, driving skill was making much less of a difference. This obviously led to closer lap times and more competition, but the difference a great driver would make is still noticeable, though more obscure.

Privateers moderation published.

Is Riverside on 19 December for works racers only?

Yes due to a re-run, Privateers have done it already.

Phew - its my best ever...

For this rerun, could we do a testrace at Smoggies 1966 Riverside track? I haven't tried it yet, but it has a historically accurate layout (the Beckman version we used intended to simulate the 1960 USGP but accidentally used the 1971 layout with altered entry to the last banked corner), and more importantly, hopefully has no freeze issues. It's listed as BETA but that doesn't necessarily mean it's not suitable to use online.

Could provide some extra practice at the same time :) .

Here's the link to Smoggies newer track:

http://gpltd.bcsims.com/?sbtd=rivers66

Tom.

I don't see why not unless anyone has issues. It's a case of finding a slot where we can get a few drivers. I might be able to get the use of T7_2 on Friday but not sure how many could make it. Alternatively (or in addition) we could do a quick test after one of our division races if enough are willing to hang around.
Could do one after the Specs (although that might be a bit late) but I'm not around next Tuesday. Anyway will check re server availability and post something up.

Well I asked before but didn't get an answer, so again - has the screen freeze problem of Riverside 1960 been fixed? And if not, I support the idea of running another version of the track, as long as it's announced in advance.

This is what Bartosz is proposing, but I agree with Tim, a test run to try it out is needed. Friday should be fine for me provided I'm not down on my backside kissing the ice.

Same track.
As the IGOR Racelist is now back, which means we might get some pick up drivers to fill out the numbers, we'll run the version Tom has suggested at 9pm Friday 10 December as a test (subject to having T7_2). I'll put up a separate note for this.