SimRacing.org.uk

UKGPL Season 20 Novices Trophy (1965 Mod) Race 3 November 9th

Welcome to round 3 of the 65 Novices season, and we do like to be beside the seaside, oh we do like to be beside the sea.

For the second time this season the Amateurs have wimped out and instead of braving the Ducth sand dunes, they've opted for a ride through the country on a track near a pretty castle.

Anyway, for the brave souls in the Novices, Zandvoort was built in 1948 and hosted the 1949 Zandvoort Grand Prix, and in 1952 it was included in the Formula One World Championship, being skipped only 4 times in the following 34 years. In 1985, the Dutch Grand Prix was held for the last time before half of the circuit's grounds were sold and used for Bungalows.

The circuit was popular among drivers for its fast, sweeping corners, but putting a wheel on the sand would mean getting sucked off. Perhaps that's why it was popular among drivers? Either way, I'm sure we'll all have fun.

Please see the Novices registration thread for an explanation of the chassis allocations shown below:
https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=8416.0

FULL TIME

DRIVER	CHASSIS
Vosblod	Cooper
NHance	BT11
Miner2049er	Cooper
Il_Lupo	Ferrari
Billy NoBrakes	BT11
HappyAL	Ferrari
Gilles27	BT11
Burtoner	3
Nigel Smith	Honda
Ronnie Peterson	Lotus
Blito	Ferrari
Mark65	1
Artiglietti	Lotus
BadBlood	Honda
RogUK	Cooper
Norbert	Ferrari
Maddog	Cooper

RESERVE

DRIVER	CHASSIS
Karliss	Honda

Reserve drivers should not join the server until there are only 30 minutes of qualifying left so as to give the FULL TIME drivers chance to join, and drivers are not to go out on track until there are 30 minutes of qualifying left as this helps all drivers join the server successfully.

Please restrict chat to pit messages if necessary, and this includes the end of the race, until all running drivers have completed the necessary laps.

The Novice races are run under Int Long rules and all incidents will be moderated.

Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL5
IP address = ping myjamesonline.net
Race date = 09-11-2010
Time = 21:00 UK time
Track = Zandvoort
Variant = 65F1
Damage Model = Int
Qualifying time = 35 minutes
Race length = 27 laps
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

65 Patch: The 2.02 Release of the 65mod can and should be used.
http://bit.ly/bXzLhk

Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R;group=279;theme=6)

Right - aims.

1. Finish without more than one Shift-R
2. Set a PB
3. Don't take anyone out :(
4. Finish with only +1L (might be a bit ambitious)
5. Don't make H laugh when he sees the replay
6. Make HER proud

Only 6 is non-negotiable.

Wow!! Such a fantastic race!! :jumpjoy:
Sorry Rog to hit you at Tarzan: I did expect you would brake so early...  :oops:
Now I'm going bed: I'm really tired!! :surrender:

excellent race
Fabio, congrats on being p3 AND top Ferrari... i pushed you as hard as i could but you had me covered the whole way...
err, who won again? its all a haze for me already LOL

Well - got 1,2,3 and possibly 6. Dreadful though. Really nervous of taking someone out. Didn't enjoy that one little bit. Castle Combe should be fun...

GPL is very tricky at 20fps. Not sure what happened but it was my first race using V2 rasterisers and OpenGL so it may have been that though it has been fine offline. Couldn't get a clean lap and then in the race it was horrid.

I touched someone who rejoined on the racing line then moved out when I went to go round them but shortly after that my PC rebooted and ended an evening of misery.

Came up with a serious system error so maybe my 20fps was Windows related.

Anyway, on to Castle Combe which I'd better try and learn.

Firstly WD Ross. Second, so no complaints. The trusty Coop did the biz but lacked grunt on the straights - I had the choice to go to Mars World  :alien:

Quallied 5th and top of the 'wish we had enough drivers to run an intermediate division' Coopermen so was happy with that. Got a fantastic start and plonked myself into third - was worried I'd jumped it by mistake but I definately saw the flag fall.
Anyway trailed Art and Gilles until something went on ahead which left me just trailing Gilles the frontrunner. Try as I might with the Coops cornering and slipstream Ross slowly left me running solo. Two drives over the banking to  see if I could spot that famous nudist beach left me a hairs breadth in front of Fabio so it all went down to the wire.

Great fun and great racing...

I don't think it possible to have more mixed feelings about an event than this one.

Coming into it with a much improved setup, and a new PC which can hold a solid 36fps at all times, I was optimistic of being closer to AA and so it proved with second on the grid, albeit well behind in terms of time.

After making a reasonable start it all went wrong at Tarzan on lap 2 when I hit AA up the back and sent him onto the grassy bank. Spent the next couple of laps severely reprimanding myself before deciding to just press on and try to get first on the road, then let the moderators hammer me next week. My race pace was a bit slow, couldn't even get into the 29s but I eased away from Tim and was really pleased with my consistency.

The backmarkers were exemplary today, thank you to them for making my life easy. Well done to Tim and the charging Fabio for their podiums. Finally, a big thumbs up to Blito who scored a good fourth place and is improving rapidly.

Judging from laptimes of the last Zandy AM race 2 seasons ago, AA's time would've put him in contention for victory:

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=7185#event1872

Can’t help but being a tad disappointed with my pace once again. I did a lot of off line practice and was hoping for better than I got.

That being said I think it was an OK race for me. I was at the back of the pack, and had one or two battles with a few people. My start was appalling, my clutch didn’t work and I was very slow off the line. Sorry to anyone who had to dodge around a very slow moving Ferrari.

After that I was almost at the back, I was following Mike, but I made a silly mistake, while watching his car rather than driving my own car. This left me at the very back. I caught up with the pack after a lap or two, and then passed Karlisss going into the first corner. I would like to apologies for my pass their, as I did not intend it as a pass, I got my braking wrong and had no choice but to go for the gap, thank you for seeing what happened and staying on your line.

After that I picked a few places after people fell off, and had a battle with Nigel and Ronnie. Both of them were faster than me so all I could do was keep to a tight line around the circuit and cover the inside for turn 1. I managed to keep my place for a few laps, but then Ronnie was too late on the brakes going into turn 1 and hit me.

Ronnie got past me at one point, with a great move on the outside of turn 1, but he spun a lap later letting me past him again. It was quite nail biting at this point, and going into the last laps I saw that the leader was catching us. I continued to defend my line into turn 1 and was looking good. My lap board showed last lap, and the chequered flag was being waved, so I pulled over thinking I finished in 9th place. It took me a few seconds to realise that the flag was being shown for Ross, who was right behind us at that point, and we still had another lap to go. D’oh

Anyway, thanks for the good race Ronnie, you were so much faster than me, but I hope I kept to my lines and we both raced fairly. Also to Nigel, I thought that you’d disappeared up the road from us, I was quite surprised to find that you were behind us on the final order, so something must of happened to you.

Well that brought me back to earth with a bump. My PC was broke so not my usual practice but happy with qually. Wow, did the starter drop the flag quick or what. I was still on tickover so crawled off the line & lost a place. Some offs & missed gears meant I dropped further back. It was me you hit Mike. My car was damaged so shift R & S&G. Won't argue about it here but.......  . Think I was last by then. By this time I had "lost it" not red mist or anything just completely lost the rythem of the track & any confidence as well. Seriously thought about packing it in but that's not the way to get points.

For a long time I was catching Karliss but spun twice when I got near. Finally passed him. Lap 18 my engine blew so another shift R & S&G. I am really trying to adjust my style not to use engine braking but finding it difficult. Its ok telling Bad Blood to read Evil Clive's how to avoid it I should have re read it myself :-[.

Well done to the podium drivers but there was a rumour on chat after the race that Ross was a naughty boy again. Also to AA for that qually time which I think was faster than Goran the last time Novs raced here.

One to forget I think ;D

Norm H

I didn't fancy my chances at 'The Dunes. 'The Novices field is getting so competitive, that every second lost on the track, is many places lost on the grid.  And pre-race practice had suggested, I'd picked up a persistent interlude. So griding in 9th spot was no big surprise.  

I was relatively happy to be 7th after the initial shuffle, and quickly found myself at the tail in a high speed train of four cars.  With no easy passing opportunities, I decided to wait for a derailment.  It was many furious laps, before things culminated in a spot of bother, as our locomotive was briefly sidelined, by the first carriage.   And as luck would have it, I was able to nip through in all the locomotion, and arrive at a surprised 3rd spot! ;D

Things were coming together rather well - the car was behaving beautifully, and I was driving beyond expectation.  So I took a moment to relax . . . and that's when it happened.

My preferred seating, for on-line racing is a suitably inclined Recaro, with good lateral support for exuberant cornering.  Except in reality, I've an adjustable office chair, with a pillow stuffed behind my back, and a wheel drawn up somewhere North of my knees - thus is life.  When I'd relaxed, the pillow fell to the floor, which meant driving more than half the race with my back, bolt upright.  So I glanced behind to find it, seeing as my driving was so masterful . . . and immediately commenced a grassy moment, prior to the main straight.  Now in 4th, I headed down the straight, and made a grab for it. This instantly pulled my headphones from their socket, and things all went rather quiet, except while I silently shrieked!    :taz:       
                                                         
I now had the task of resocketing my lead at 150mph, while driving blindly towards a sharp right hander!  It's amazing how young racing can make you feel - I suddenly had the dexterity of a 4 year old!  Briefly parked it on the grass, and got it all together in 5th.  Except, having being somewhat distracted, it was now time for a silly half spin a lap later.  So, now in 7th, and at the rear end in a train of three.  "How far the mighty had fallen!" I modestly confessed.  

After the two ahead of me met with misfortune, the chequers fell on an uncomfortably placed 5th placer, following a dominating drive by Ross, and Vosblods nature defying Cooper.  Then Fabio, who doesn't seem to realize, he's supposed to be a back marker, and flung himself at the podium.  While I suffered the injustice of being beaten by a cushion! :(    

My heart bleeds  ::)

My race was a bit like Maddog's but I didn't lose a cushion lol. I was following karliss closely when he braked for the last corner and I warped a tiny bit and suddenly seemed very close. Panicked a bit stabbed the brakes and span. Ah well at least Norm was slow... I'll pass him on the right - aaagh - he's pitting. I need to go left - I know what, I'll violently jerk my steering wheel round. That'll do. Ah yes, hello spin. At least it got my tyre temps up :D

Norm soon caught me up and took his rightful place. Later on I span and couldn't find a sufficient gap to rejoin - by the time Norm passed me (again) - I was 'parked' at Tarzan - AA was in sight. I need a 400yd gap since my four penalty points. :(

Boy I need to practice. I take solace that I can't be further back at Castle Combe although multiple Shift_R's on a lap look likely - I could set a record race time!

and the race according to blito......

very pleased with my 6th place in qualifying, with a new PB of 1:29.88 (i think).
Lined up on the grid only to find the car wouldnt select first gear! Dont know if maybe i lost the server connection for a second or so but it threw me totally! So much so that i wasn`t ready for the flag and i was mugged by four cars on the run to turn 1.... followed the pack ahead for lap one and had a look at passing... errm somebody in a british car into turn 1 lap 2 but chickened out as my Fez was a bit unstable into the hairpin. Settled down into a rythm, picking people off as they spun in front. Fabio was just about in sight for the whole race, occasionally dropping back to just 1 or 2 secs in front then opening up to 10 or so before dropping back again.. i think he was just teasing me!
Once again i think my performance highlights the importance of consistancy - every lap was between 1:30.5 and 1:31.9..  hardly put a wheel wrong at all and i`m very very pleased with 4th place. Just to put everyones minds at rest, i dont expect toequal this result for the rest of the season.. i mean... spa, imola, adelaide, anderstorp..... urgh! horrid horrid tracks!

I just want to say a big well done to Karliss for his exemplary manners and professional driving etiquette when being lapped. Very impressive m8, well done.

Congrats to the podium boys.

Sorry Al, yeah there was a bit of warping at my end, yes you braked earlier than I would have liked but I braked too late into turn 1 on lap 15 and it was my fault that I went into the back of you. you were driving great lines to keep me at bay. Just looked at the replay of that waving chequered flag for Gilles behind us, great photo finish for us NOT!!! Sorry again and down to me.

Hi Ronnie, just got an incident report submission about our coming together, can I know if you submitted the report yourself and your view about the incident?

If someone submits a report that involves another driver, that other driver automatically gets notified about the report by receiving a PM here on the forum and is given a chance to submit his/her own view of the situation.

The moderator can send you that notification, without any of the drivers having submitted a report, according to what it says on the email I received.

In this case it might be relevant for me to know if the driver has submitted it himself and his views about the accident, before contacting the mods myself.

Hi Attlio. H is right you should be notified I know I am! As instructed and to be helpful to the moderators I check out the replay asap and and look for incidents I am involved in especially where I cause a shift-r or take a shift-r I and submit a report. To be honest I invariably always ask for no action to be taken against the other driver (this case was no exception) as its all part and parcel of racing online. The incident we were involved in resulted in me taking a shift-r but no stop and go as I deemed at the time it was not my fault. However its not for me but the moderators to decide if I was right. As usual whatever they decide is good with me. Great pace by the way in qualifying and the race.

We use the reporting system to keep submissions confidential. Basically you can respond stating your view of the incident which will be taken into consideration but neither driver can see the others comments.
I'd reccommend you just respond stating your view of what happened then the moderator will look at all driver submissions, together with any submitted clips, and review the incident against the replay. Obviously Ronnie has opted to respond here in this instance.

Speaking to Attilio reminds me of something. The next novice race at Castle Coombe is scheduled for 30 laps?? That is going to be a pretty short race of not much more than 30 - 35 minutes, particularly at Attilio's pace. 

Hi Ronnie, it looks to me like your car has been damaged (probably a puncture against the fence) in the second of the 2 spins you had in that same lap. You are limping around finding it hard to turn right well before we clash. Thats the reason you had to take a SR.

If confidentiality is such a substantial matter, I probably should have sent a PM, apologies.

In this case, and for obvious reasons, I felt it was important to me to know what Ronnie was reporting to the mods.

Short for some than others - If we only do 30 mins I'll only get 26 laps in :D I am pretty consistently doing 1:08 - 1:10 but I just can't get it right - I know there are five seconds there somewhere but there is no way I am going to get to the pace of you podium boys. :(

i keep spinning on the first right hander after the kink left - I assume there is some kind of slope there but I can't see it. Anyone else find that corner tricky?

Crumbs I really should be working hope no one spots me. Your right Paul that corner is tricky for me as well and I suspect some suspension tweaks might be in order but at what cost to the handling on the rest of the track. Some practice at the weekend for me I think. The problem I might have is the apparent sameness of the rest of the track that after a while you just forget where the hell you are and go sailing off!!! This one could be down to survival as much as speed. Good luck.

What you guys have just discovered is Quarry Bend, and yes it does have negative camber in RL too.

This corner is as notorious in real life as it is in GPL!!!!  Urban legend has it that 40% of all accidents on UK circuits happens at Quarry!!!

Entry speed to Quarry is not as important as the exit speed.

Just to show you how the professional do it....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJfYO4qKAso&feature=related

I've always considered Quarry fairly flat - compared to Tower at least  ;D
(Can't remember if Tower is as dodgy in GPL as in real life)
Quarry is dangerous more for the braking zone over the brow into a left hander before turning right hard, it's so easy to upset the car too much or simply fail to slow enough. The camber is the least of your problems  :)

quarry is not a worry for me - i shall be busily getting drunk with the father-in-law on race night so i wont be there at all...

For a minute I thought you mean "flat out" and was going to oppose!  ;D

I've heard it said that if you go into Quarry under full control, then you're not going fast enough.   ;D

Combe is a tricky place to get right over 1 lap let alone 30.  Don't worry too much though, the marshals are good there to pick up the pieces  :laugh:

I have found a short cut at Quarry through the daisies... doesn't affect my lap times much <ahem> and it is kind of Ronnie to suggest I need to tweak the setup - as if that actually makes a difference to me with my 'oh so fabulous' car control. ho ho.

You kicked my ass at the Ring Paul, why not the Castle!

Ho ho - the only way I can kick your ass is to drive through - like I did at Mosport lol.

The main reason is that there are unlimited Shift-R's so driving very very slowly (like I did at the 'ring - bet you've never done a 12:09 :D) will not work :(

Also you are sufficiently quicker than me that you can afford a Shift-R and stop and go every two laps and STILL beat me! Mind you Mexico is very crashable so I am hopeful for that one :)

Thanks anyway for the encouragement.

Apologies but the moderation for this race may be late and not done until after Castle Coombe. Not sure yet but don't be surprised if it comes out after Castle Coombe

Blah blah blah busy blah blah blah lousy pay blah blah blah 3 kids blah blah blah wife blah blah blah real life etc.

I'll do it - Mind you there would be a LOT of disqualifications :D

Anyway I've got four kids so stop moaning - we had two boys, wanted a girl but knew we didn't want four. Twin girls :laugh:

Mind you, a couple we knew in hospital had got pregnant after his vasectomy as he didn't want more than three - TRIPLETS  :o

Actually there would be 14 to be precise. Think about it Mike - you'd be OK :D

Race Mod published. thank you for your patience.

Thank you for the effort Mike.

Some questions popped up while reading:

- Why is it I had 2 penalty points before Zandy, I get 1 point there, I have now 4 penalty points on the board? 2+1 = 4 at UKGPL? Theres something I am not gathering obviously.

- Why is it that a racing incident plus a S-R doesnt bear the S&G thingy? Thats the same it happened with the clash with you in Mosport, don't think you S&G there either. That is obviously assuming the S-R is caused by the racing incident. Of course. So theres something I am not gathering here as well, obviously.

- Not to be anal with somebody else's race, but since this somewhat involves me again, is 1 + 3 = 4 at UKGPL as it is for me? Not clear either, read the rules and didnt find anything unusual in the maths there..

Finally, sorry to Nigel, I had completely forgotten that incident due to a couple of others that much more severely messed my mood...I seem to be willing to climb on your Honda at some point  :P, that wasnt my intention. I had a look at the replay, and you were hiding in my blind spot for 4 secs before the accident, so I must have checked and thought no one was there. Should have gone in slowly slowly, glad to see you went on unscathed though. As for me, I just moved around my 1 point on the board for that, doesnt make much of a difference. Or...are they actually 2 points  Mike? ;)   

The points system is not that simple if I remember correctly, so for example a single warning may = 1 point but a 1 place penalty may be more points. Points don't equate directly to penalties.

Somebody can explain the yellow card and points system more fully than I can.


Because a Racing Incident is not deemed to be anybody's fault as such. Had Ronnie been found at fault then he would have had to take a SnG but had you been found at fault he would not. As nobody was found to be at fault it is a free SHIFT-R.

Not enough disqualifications IMHO  :laugh:

Thanks Mike

- Since the Moderator (?) is not able to, would be grateful to have that explained by Mr. Somebody, from the regulations it seems as if they equate.

- According to the regulations, cases where a no-fault S&R would NOT apply are:

A racing incident; for example, the driver is knocked off the track during an overtake.

Oh, but also: The driver makes a mistake on their own, for example, blowing their engine or crashing after a loss of control

Theres written rules, and applied ones, just need to know which ones which. So, next time I bend a suspension, I just need to wait for the next chicken?

Does this  (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/no_stop_and_go)clarify the situation?

Yellow card system is explained here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/yellow_card_example)

Well Mike is Mr Somebody and he is supported by Mr Chief Moderator.
If you wish to appeal please send me a PM

Sorry Phil, it doesnt, those are the pages I went through myself.

It says: 'every 2 yellow card points a driver has above 2, will automatically incur an extra lost place on subsequent penalties and warnings.' I had 2 penalty points, 1 was added to those 2, it should be 3, not 4. Why is it 4?

Also it says: 'Cases where a no fault S&G would NOT apply are:

A racing incident; for example, the driver is knocked off the track during an overtake.'

What does knocked off the track means then?? This would apply to the clash between me and the moderator (?) in Mosport.

In this case though, its rather the case of:

'The driver makes a mistake on their own, for example, blowing their engine or crashing after a loss of control'

Funny thing, I get 1 place lost and  2 penalty points (but why 2??) because I shove someone  whos sitting in my blind spot for 4 secs, without causing him any harm whatsoever, whilst trying to recover after having been reared out of the race and with a zillion cars roaring past me.

The guy who rears me from first to dead last gets 2 positions lost (but his penalty points are 2, equalling the positions lost in his case, why?), which added  to his previous 4 should put him in 4th, but he sits 3rd on the board (why?).

And, especially, someone who spins by himself, bends the suspension, then limps around and crashes into someone else,  and then pretends he has to take a S-R  for that crash gets....a pat on the back from the moderator (?)

I dont need to appeal anything Tim, I did shove someone so I have to yield to what the moderator (?) makes of it.

What should be clarified is the system of penalties, a clear reason why sometimes you get 1 place lost =1 penalty point, or 2 places lost = 2 penalty points, and sometimes you get 1 place lost = 2 penalty points. That is of public interest I think.

Also it should be clarified the problem of the no fault S-R, because as for the posts above, the regulations clearly state something which is not being applied as stated. This is of public interest as well.

And last, but not least, it should be clarified the episode with Ronnie. It is obvious that next time I damage my car I could do the same manoeuvre as him. Just want to be sure I will have the same treatment by the moderator (?)

I will reply when I get home from work, but for the record, you seem to be accusing Ronnie of using an incident to get a free reset while the replay report shows no significant damage on Ronnie's car and I think that if you wish to accuse a driver of doing something like that it should be as part of an appeal to the Chief Moderator.

As for not explaining the points system fully to you, it was 11:20 at night and I was going to bed. I suggest that a little more patience may be in order.

Also your keyboard appears to be broken as every time you type Moderator it appears as Moderator (?)

I don't think AA is accusing anybody. He's just trying to tell you that the way the rules are applied to the situation is not fully clear and creates some ambiguity, so a detailed explanation would help lift up any doubts. Both for yellow card points and shift-r/pit stop.

I think you're being unnecessarily hostile, Mike. Read his posts again and you'll see what I mean. Even if there's some irritation in his way of writing, it only stems from lack of understanding on these issues and I think he's not alone in that, I'm also a bit puzzled how some decisions came to be. It has nothing to do with accusations, but an attempt to clarify things and fill-in the gaps in the rules if there appear to be any.

I'm sorry AA you feel I deliberately waited for you to come along and let you crash into me so as to avoid a stop and go (playing chicken I think you called it). It never crossed my mind and never will. Sure I race to win but second only to racing for fun with other drivers like yourself. Take the next race Castle Coombe for example. I remember some fantastic laps at the end of the race with some guy in a lotus trying to get past me ending in last lap last ditch overtaking manoeuvre which was never going to work and running into me from behind. It could have taken me out but I was lucky and he went off instead and I held onto the hard fought place. Just a racing incident as far as I was concerned. Hold on I remember now it was you behind me. Sorry AA if I upset your race and apologies to Al who I rear ended (which I owned up to immediately). I can assure anyone overtaking/lapping me I DO NOT drive my car any wider than it needs to be. Safe driving everyone and see you all at the next round. Last but not least big thanks to Mike for the moderating.

Guys I think we need to get a handle on this.
Firstly there are reasons why we submit Incident Reports and try to avoid specific forum debate. Correspondence regarding incidents should be kept confidential and private between the drivers concerned, and whilst public debate regarding general issues raised is healthy, open discussion can lead to unnecessarily antagonistic situations.
The moderators give up their free time to review incidents and, I can assure you, decisions regarding penalties are not taken lightly. All incidents are reviewed in light of our penalty guidelines here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/penalties) but we do have to make impartial judgements.
With my moderators hat off I would feel putting a question mark against the word moderator and asking for Mr Somebody could be construed as derogatory. We have human emotions and I appreciate the way things are written can be misconstrued but let's be polite.
There is an appeal system in place and, rather then just myself making a snap decision, I have the able assistance of our Senior Consultant Clive.

Anyway the why's and wherefore's of the specific penalties aside, which should be submitted via the appeal process, there seem to be three issues;

Free reset
I feel this is a confidential issue that should be kept private. I will not comment suffice to say I would recommend a review of the GPLRA mechanical report.

Penalty Points System
As Phil has already mentioned an explanation of the system is here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/yellow_card_example).
So, using that system, your points are as follows;
Mosport - 2 places/penalty points (+ 4 yellow cards)
Zandvoort - 1 place/penalty point (+ 2 yellow cards, total now 6)
Every 2 yellow card points a driver has above 2 will automatically incur an extra lost place on subsequent penalties and warnings.

Hence, having 6 yellows and incurring a single penalty at Zandvoort, loses you an extra place totalling 4. This now leaves you with 4 yellows (ie the 6 minus 2 for the lost place).
I hope that clarifies things.

Resets - Stop and Go's
As Phil mentioned the rules are here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/no_stop_and_go).
I must be honest I have never looked at this line in detail;
'A racing incident; for example, the driver is knocked off the track during an overtake'

We have always treated it as a no fault Shift/R unless the driver concerned is at fault. Neither would I expect a Stop and Go where an incident ahead was completely unavoidable. Common sense needs to apply here and each incident needs to be taken on it's own specific merits.

Tim...I think the confusion stems from the fact that the severity of the penalty doesnt count toward the number of yellows. In the example within the rules a penalty losing only 1 place is not mentioned.  So 1 penalty, if it is for 1 or 2 places, is always 2 yellow cards. This means I got 2 penalties in the first 4 races (one lost me 2 places, the other only 1), and they sum up to 4 yellow cards on my board. Not 6 Tim, as for my latest understanding of the process. Or you got it right?

-'Mr Somebody' was in response to Mikes comment 'somebody can explain the yellow card system better than me'.

-If a moderator can't explain the penalty system, how is he going to apply it? For this, but not only for this, the question marks. They are meant to be derogatory. Mikes attitude is often blunt and dismissive, I have had enough, he can get a bit of his medicine back and surely will be able to cope.

-Common sense in applying the rules is fine, as long as it is applied consistently. The way rules about s&g are stated is however confusing, as you yourself imply in your post.

-I did obviously check GPLRA mechanical report before submitting my report about Ronnies clash. But, have you? I am sending you a PM in a minute. Please reply when you have time.

-I think this obsession with privacy also leads to lack of clarity, if Ronnie had a clear explanation for the incident to give in a direct way in the forum, all the fuss would have been avoided. 

- For the game to go on I need you to organize it, but you also need me to come and play it. Please lets not start the 'if it werent for me' whinging carol.



 

Oh, and thank you to Hristo, who took the time to intervene, and admitted some confusion about the application of the rules on his side as well. I did appreciate that.

Hi Attilio,
Yes Mike's a big boy and can look after himself but we also need to keep some decorum on the forums which is why I mentioned it.
Re penalties - what you are looking at is just an extreme example. You get 2 yellows for each penalty place - your board is now showing 4 as 2 have already been expunged by the loss of the extra place.

Yes I agree common sense needs to be applied in a consistent manner, I'm always loathe to change the rules (they can't cover everything but have stood us in good stead for many seasons) but perhaps some clarification on S&G's might be in order in this instance. Yes I had not studied that rule and I don't know the rulebook inside out but I know where to look them up ;D

Anyway I look forward to the PM and, of course, we need you and everyone else or we have no league. Constructive criticism, suggestions and ideas are always welcome. Your highlighting of the Stop and Go rule is a case in point.

Tim, I havent lost any extra place....

@ Podkrecony

yeah, but also:

You have 2 penalty points instead of one.

Gentlemen - toys back in prams please.

It can get quite emotional when looking at racing incidents but surely the rule has to be:

1. Be polite
2. Be honest
3. Trust other people's integrity and sportmanship.

I have done a LOT of looking at other peoples racing and nobody in UKGPL is unfair deliberately. I myself have four penalty points but have NEVER intended to cause problems. Indeed I appealed about an incident which the moderator's looked at carefully. I still have the points but I appreciated the time put into it.

Let's keep it civil so that we can enjoy the racing.

The issue wasnt what people meant to do, thats in their mind and it is not possible to clarify it.

The issue is about what they tried to make of it afterwards. And this is a fact, easy to understand using replay and GPLRA reports. A fact that stands clear wether or not the moderators and others decide to turn a blind eye on it.

However, looking at the positives, knowing you can get away with this does make for a very handy information to have.

Sorry for butting in as I wasn't the moderator, but I do object to this implication.
A fact is something incontrovertible and with absolute proof. Blind eyes cannot and would not be turned in any circumstances.

I see parts of the forum that you don't. I know what was inferred.


I can, I chose not to at that time. I apply penalties for each incident and judge each incident on its own merits. Only when a regular or frequent pattern of behaviour becomes apparent do I need to concern myself with the totalling of yellow cards etc.


Examples please? I have rarely if ever conversed with you. If however you feel I am not moderating the division on a fair and impartial basis then please submit your feelings to the Chief Moderator who will look into the matter on your behalf.



My Mummy said to ignore that bit.



I disagree. Forum debates and arguments that drag on and on are never helpful and each driver submitting their own incident reports to the moderators is the cleanest way to do it. If at the end of the moderation process there is a disagreement then the appeal process can be used.


This is UKGPL Season 20. I think that speaks for itself.

Why not just make stop&go mandatory for any shift-r, regardless if you're to blame or not. It would lift up a lot of doubt, ambiguity and spare a lot of work for the moderators. It's very difficult in the heat of racing to judge a situation objectively sometimes and you have a few seconds to make a decision whether you were to blame for an accident or not. Otherwise there would be a lot of races decided/adjusted outside the track and that's unwanted IMO. Let races be decided on track and just accept that racing incidents can, and will happen, and sometimes you get the short end of the stick.

It's an interesting thought and one I've had before. It does more accurately model real world racing that way, for example an innocent victim of a crash may still need to pit to change a punctured tyre or replace a broken front wing for example, meaning the difference between 1st and 5th.

There is always the option of not taking it and if found to be at fault adding 30seconds on at the end, but in Novices I look at all incidents anyway so it is no extra work in that division.

Perhaps we could include that thought as a part of our mid season review and canvas driver opinion.

I don't see that blameless driving would improve matters on the track. :-\

What do you mean? There would still be penalties handed out for those who are responsible for an accident, if any. It doesn't change a thing in that regard.

My point was only to avoid judging whether you are allowed a free shift-r or not in the heat of action, because it's rarely a clear situation and it almost always opens up a can of worms and moves the outcome of a race outside the track, after the race is over.

This argument is being dragged on and on because of your continued opportunistic avoidance of the issue at stake.

If you lack the tools for an articulate discussion in public, then do have a private one from behind the moderator shield, but please quit wasting everybody's time with ridiculously unsubstantial replies.

Chief moderator has been pmmed, and has forwarded those exchanges to you.

The issue has now moved on to the fairness and trustworthiness of your so called moderation, which lacks any kind of moderating effect, weakly confusing authority with a right to prevarication. It is far too easy to go and hide behind the chief moderator, try and put up some kind of articulate argument on your own. You could find out you are actually able to.





 

I tried to defend your case, AA, but I think it's you who's now going overboard. As someone said, these people do all this in their spare time and by free will, so there is no obligation. As a human element involved in it, mistakes are bound to happen from time to time, so why not you both just clear this out without involving negative emotions in it? I'm also interested to hear a clarification on the shift-r and penalty points rules, but there's no need to go beyond that in such a manner as you do.

I am avoiding nothing and have made my opinion on the matter public in the form of the race report at the top of the thread. People may disagree with it and can lodge an appeal in the proper manner.


I am not the one wasting time and for me the matter is finished when I publish the report unless an appeal is lodged. Again, I urge you to lodge an appeal if you disagree with it.


As I said earlier, if you think I am being unfair or not being impartial, make your complaint official.


I have not gone to hide behind anyone, I am telling you to go to him and complain about me officially.


Far from being drawn into a public argument which helps nobody, I really do not having anything further to discuss with you on this matter. You are not only being quite rude and provocative but you risk alienating yourself against not only the moderation team but your fellow competitors.

This is supposed to be a game, a hobby, something enjoyable, and for me it is just that. When it ceases to be enjoyable I will walk away. I would urge anybody else here to hold a similar philosophy.

OH, will I keep my serene night of sleep in that case.......yeah, think so.


And for me, so lets keep it that way, maybe also keeping an eye on the ones who, trying to be unnecessarily clever, spoil the fun for the others.

For the record Mike, I implicitly trust your integrity and I have found all the Moderators to be fair and helpful - even when I don't agree with the moderation (which has happened). Several have gone out of their way to offer help and constructive criticism privately. I appreciate it.

I want to put on the slate that the thing that attracted me to UKGPL was the openness and welcoming attitude - I surf these forums quite a lot and this thread is astonishing. Way too personal.

So. to everyone - c'mon. This race was a month ago. Let it go and take any frustrations out on the lap time!

Keep it kind.

Mike, I don't think he meant to appeal against the judgement, but to ask for a clarification of the rules. I don't see why that can't be public, it concerns everyone and I agree on that it's needed. For instance, there are situations which are not covered by the shift-r rule in particular.

Why not separate appeals and clarification, and discuss the latter here, disregarding who insulted who and who got hurt by who, and who was at fault and why, etc...

Anyway, I do support a vote against the non-pitstop shift-r for next season, even if I don't race in the division, I think it's the right way to go.

I completely agree with you Hristo, general issues/clarification should be aired. I have sort of replied to the two issues but will put something more formal up asap.
As Mike says the whole Shift/R - Stop and Go issue is up for discussion prior to next season. I introduced a compulsory stop in Privateers but for different reasons.

Well, yes but no :)

Yes we should discuss the SnG rules but not here, we will create a separate thread or perhaps discuss it in the upcoming mid season review thread rather than in this race thread where it will get lost.


If the membership vote for it, and even though it is documented in the rules when and when not to take a SnG, if new drivers to the league are either missing it, not reading it or misunderstanding it then we need to address that.

There has been a lot of heated debate on this thread concerning the rules and interpretation of them.  Something for which I feel I have some responsibility for.  So I feel compelled to try to clear up a few misunderstandings. 

When I became Chief Mod in Season 14 I took over responsibility for the rules and so I got to know them quite well.  I made a few minor changes over the years but the league rules have remained reasonably intact and have served UKGPL very well. 

However there are two areas that have changed a lot.

1.  Specific rules for specific divisions.  When I started racing with UKGPL we only did one race format (original 67 cars with handicapping using pit stops).  Now we regularly use 65, 66 and 67 cars with a range of handicapping systems (chassis allocation, championship positions, tokens etc).  So each division has specific rules.  Sometimes the division specific rules can contradict and override the league rules.  This is rare but it can happen (First potential source of confusion).  If in doubt the specific rule for the division must prevail.

2.  I created the Penalty Guidelines.  The rules can be interpreted differently and hence penalties can be awarded inconsistently.  To try to improve the consistency of the incident moderation I created a set of scenarios of differing severity for the typical incidents we get in UKGPL.  These scenarios are not exhaustive but they should help the moderators decide on an appropriate "punishment" and the drivers to understand why.  If this isn't happening then it implies there is something wrong with the guidelines, as I said I do not claim they are perfect.  The term penalty is being overloaded so I've used the term "punishment" here to describe the moderator's decision.

Please note there is a difference between the "punishments" described in the penalty guidelines and the yellow card system (another potential source of confusion).  The "number of places" or "time added on" a moderator can award are manually entered into the race results system.  These are directly traceable to the moderator's decision and are easy to understand.  The yellow card system is NOT manually applied.  The race results system in SRou automatically determines the number of yellows cards and hence "Yellow card places" dropped.  This can get very complicated when several yellow cards are involved.  To work it out manually is a pain but the algorithm in SRou has been thoroughly tested and I know it is right.  The Yellow card system is used throughout all the leagues running under SRou including UKGPL.  We don't control it we just use it and trust it.  The published explanation (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/yellow_card_example) is correct.

On the issue of trying to get a free shift R by allowing yourself to get bumped off by someone else.  I don't think this would be a sensible strategy to adopt.  You are likely to loose far more time limping around waiting for an incident to occur than would be lost simply resetting and doing a stop and go.  The suggestion that all shift Rs should be followed by a Stop&Go (and hence eliminate this potential strategy) has been tried before in Masters Season 12 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=163&theme=6) but it wasn't adopted in the other divisions because it was seen as unfair on drivers that were quite clearly the innocent party.  The organizers need to make a judgement and decide on the lesser of the two evils.

Notwithstanding ambiguities in the rules, the drivers must accept the divisional moderators decision or formally appeal the the Chief Moderator.  If the rules or guidelines are at fault we normally have a mid season and end of season review where these issues can be debated.  However, it is not normally considered good practice to change the rules part way through a season.  Any rule changes should only come into force at the start of a new season.

I hope this puts some historical context on why things are the way they are and that we can move on.  I'm not saying things are perfect but there are generally good reasons why things are done in a particular way.

Thanks for the thorough explanation, Phil, and I agree we should discuss it separately in its own thread when the time comes, Mike.

Just want to say that I'm not against free shift-r so much for the fact that someone can manipulate it and try to get hit on purpose to take advantage of it, but because it's not always possible to judge a situation objectively in the heat of action and from the limited point of view of your own cockpit, and a wrong decision here regarding shift-r can lead to race results being adjusted outside the track later on. Anyway, I guess I'll repeat all that when the time comes.  ;D

After a goodnights sleep let me just say. Congratulations to Vos, Blito and Ross on the 1, 2, 3 finish and commiserations to Fabio who slipped off the podium. Ross, despite your win at Castle Coombe I suspect your mirrors are going to be full of hungry wannabe contenders at Spa. With over half the season still to go watch your back, the chasing pack is coming.

woohoo! second! Equals my best ever UKGPL result :D
 Once again proof of the effectiveness of finding stability and driving within you limits :)
Pity that i have no idea where those limits are for the next few tracks!

Well for Spa the limit is just how fast you can get those little whizzy bits to turn without them wanting to part company from the rest of the car.

The Ferrari should go well there but my Cooper is undergoing a ballast reduction process in preparation.

Have you ever sat in a Cooper? It can be arranged...................

Yes well done to Blito who has showed consistency is just as important as speed. I really need to stay away from the moderator for a while or I will cost myself too many points.

Ronnie, I'm a wannabe too :) I expect to see some of you in front of me, not just in my mirrors. Looking forward to some good battles over the next six races.