SimRacing.org.uk

Onto our first race after the xmas break, Tom V O leads the Works with Hristo and John R in equal second. In Privateers Bernie and Ronnie are pulling a gap in what promises to be an exciting second half.

Subject to a viable number of entrants we are running two separate grids for Works and Privateers drivers this season. The Works will run on PRO Damage and Privateers will run on Intermediate Damage with the allowance of ONE shift-R reset. No Shift-Rs are allowed in practice unless authorized by the moderator. A Shift-R (fault or not) MUST be followed by a Stop & Go. A Shift-R for tyres/fuel is not allowed. Any driver taking more then ONE Shift-R OR failing to take a Stop & Go will be disqualified from the race result.

Race List = IGOR
Server(s);
Works = UKGPL_5
IP address = ping myjamesonline.net
Privateers = UKGPL_T7_2
IP address = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 09-01-2011
Time = 21:00 UK time
Track = Watkins Glen
Variant = 67F1
Damage Model = Works; PRO / Privateers; INT
Qualifying time = 35 minutes. Don't start until 30 mins left on clock to allow everyone to join.
Race length = 50 minutes (laps 45)
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R;group=277;theme=6)
The track can be downloaded from : original papy track
Add-on’s available at : http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=3620 (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=3620)

Please be in IGOR UKGPL chatroom by 8:50 pm UK Time

Reserve drivers should not join the server(s) until there are only 30 minutes of qualifying left. Please restrict chat to pit messages. Moderating will be by reported incidents only, however the moderators reserve the right to review any incident with a particular emphasis on lap one. The aim is to review the race the following weekend so incident reports should be submitted within five days of the race (ie the following Friday). We're hopeful most incidents can be resolved amicably and recommend a days deep breath with a replay review before posting. A sorry in the forum won't be taken as an automatic admission of guilt by the moderators.
The Works will run on PRO Damage and Privateers will run on Intermediate Damage with the allowance of ONE shift-R reset. No Shift-Rs are allowed in practice unless authorized by the moderator. A Shift-R (fault or not) MUST be followed by a Stop & Go. A Shift-R for tyres/fuel is not allowed. Any driver taking more then ONE Shift-R OR failing to take a Stop & Go will be disqualified from the race result.

With the token system chassis strategy will be a factor. A driver must have sufficient tokens for the chassis he drives in the race.  Any driver who does not have sufficient tokens will be disqualified from the result and his tokens will be set to zero.

Chassis costs;
Lotus 20 / Eagle 17 / Ferrari 15 / Brabham 10 / Cooper 5 / Honda 3 / BRM 0

To see your current tokens hover your mouse over your total points on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R;group=277;theme=6). Ten tokens will be added when you cross the start line.

The Championship is split into two sub-divisions, namely Works and Privateers. The driver split will be;

WORKS drivers

Kinghiro (R)	Evil Clive	Hristo
Tim FMG	Steve Bird	John Roberts
Al Heller	Vosblod	Jethro
Sam B	Bartosz (Pod)	Baab (R)
Beefpie (R)	Rick N (R)	JHalli (R)
Fulvio P (R)	Tommie van O (R)	EasternSun (R)

PRIVATEERS drivers

Bernie	Burtoner	Mike Turner
Billy Nobrakes	Bookie W	Nigel Smith
Fabio (Il Lupo)	Ronnie Peterson	Paul Badblood
Martin Maddog (R)	Ross Gilles27 (R)	Hannah (R)
Nicky I (R)	Happy Al (R)	D-Rock (R)
Toni Niemi (R)

EasternSun (R) - sub-division to be decided upon

67 Patch: The 1.3 Release of the 67mod can be used.

NOTE: Please ensure you join the correct server, due to the way we import if you start the race on the wrong server your result will not count.


Watkins Glen International ("The Glen") is an auto race track located near Watkins Glen, New York, at the southern tip of Seneca Lake. It was long known around the world as the home of the United States Grand Prix, which it hosted for 20 consecutive years (1961–1980). In the early years races passed through the heart of the town with spectators lining the sidewalks, but after a car left the road in a 1952 race, killing one spectator and injuring several others, the race was moved to a new location on a wooded hilltop southwest of town. Later a permanent race course was constructed on 550 acres, overlapping part of the previous course. Despite improvements, the circuit became unable to safely handle the increasingly faster and stiffer ground effect cars of the late 70s and a few horrendous, sometimes fatal accidents and increasingly rowdy segments of the crowd began to tarnish its image. Finally, in May, 1981, several months after Alan Jones had won the 1980 race for Williams, the International Auto Sports Federation removed the race from its schedule because the track had failed to pay its debts to the teams.

45 laps - holy moly. Not sure I can count that high...

True aliens have a distinct advantage.... they do not need to take their socks off to count to 45!!!  :shifty:

I never get to beat those pesky Ailiens, and rarely even grab a tow, unless generously offered one, which then quickly disappears.  They've plenty to spare, you know - there's no need of a reminder . . .  grumble! tumbleweed

Towing behind those UFO's - its the spin that's the problem :D

aliens have toes ?  :o

Not as such, they have feet and hands which can be compared to the feet of a frog or duck ;D .

I hope I can finally get a good result at this track. Looking forward to getting this oen out of the way as I really despise of this track :2guns: .

Tom.

Watkins Glen is not one of my favourites either, I don't know why, but I usually struggle around here in the Waza with my rear tyres on fire after 5 laps, so there should be a good smokescreen behind me if i last 45 laps!!   ;D

Tom should stay behind you then - he won't have to see the track!

Time to blow to cobwebs and resume battle this season. It'll be my birthday on the 9th so you all must allow me to win  :D. I've always liked the Glen, and drove the race of my life here back in S18. I'll just hope not to crash at The Loop on lap 1  ::).

If you do then I'll probably join you again  ;D
Can't decide what to drive as I normally have terrible luck at Watkins. I either manage the podium or crash and burn  ::)
So thinking I may even step back into a waza for old times sake/s**ts and giggles  ;D

It's my birthday then too Sam so perhaps the privateers will let me take top spot :)

No idea if I'll be able to make this. No landline internet so 3G only. Last race I did that it wasn't too bad, but still...

Turned out to be too much of a liability on this one. Internet lag on 3G/HSDPA is a lot worse than I anticipated, and the Honda was a wild beast that I couldn't tame.

Probably out for Brno too as have done no practice at the place and don't know the track.

really looked forward to this race and did some practice. pleased with my 105.17. qual.took a defensive line into the bend l2. the gap to the car behind was big enough and I brake a bit early and soft. smashed out.I was in a 50 50 desicion to just stick to left and let myself be outbraked.Just a tad closer and I would done that. too dangerous to defend there the hole race but I would see if I could shake him off first.If I braked on the ideal line he would very likely be in my blindspot when it was time to turn in. I wanted him in my mirrors. that was my desicion this time anyway.ofc that brings in the danger of getting smashed ,but I thought the gap was big enough.maybe next lap if the situation was the same I would have gone wide. I was "supposed " to go faster than him should do low 6 s in the early laps. anyway if not, I would have let him pass a lap or two later if he kept getting attackpositions(learned something from my very defensive driving early at zeltweg amateurs some months ago ;) ).will my dnf s never stop? 8 in a row if I count in the race I finished with bent wheel for 10 laps. Used some hours to modify my gearstick too and it doesn t slip out of third anymore. Didn t help much tonight, but in the long run It s good to have one less thing to worry about.
oh yes...the start was fun. my teammate bart had a real nice 5.12 q and we went out side by side.I took a wideline that made me loose so much speed that tom passed me.exciting yet  clean start.:) .

Great race that, and I actually managed to finish this one  :o. The Brabham was a delight through the corners but a complete sod on the brakes and on full tanks. I guess because the BRM is so heavy, I never really tended to notice the added weight in fuel  ::). Qualified 6th and had a reasonable start, but lost a place to Tim at The Loop and spend the next 10 laps following him. Eventually my canoes-for-feet got the better of me and I pressed the accelerator and brake and speared off at the Big Bend.

I spent the next 20 laps catching Tim, and eventually began to hound him only for him to spear off at the last bend thanks to his PC having other ideas. Soon after that H was nipping at my heels and I cracked and spun off again at the Big Bend. It looked like I was set for 4th place but that turned out to be 3rd after H had an off at The Loop after he had a massive FPS drop. Bad luck there.

So I inherited a lucky podium which is a nice way to kickstart 2011  :). Congrats to Bartosz and Tom, on 1st and 2nd. If only I can get used to the Brabham on cold tyres.....

Absolutely woeful from me - tried to drive well within myself but clipped Hannah after he span which put me in the armco and cost me a lot of time. Never mind - tootle round and see what happens I thought.

I can only manage a 1:11 in a Honda so I was lapping at 1:13 nice and easy when Ronnie caught me from behind after I tried to let him past - one for the moderators but I fear the worst. Needed a Shift R and with the SnG I was four laps down! Slow and steady I thought - let lots of people through and just tried for consistency but on lap 25 just clipped the grass at the Loop and span ONTO the hay bales - my luck sure was missing.

Should have been a bit more gung ho. Went offline and did some practice and stuck in a 1:11.5 straight away <sigh>

Lessons learned but I definitely have some points - there were only nine of us but there may be some other points on the way.

Good learning experience but terrible race. Onwards and upwards.

Qualified mid field but soon found myself in fourth and with the front of the pack still in view. Unfortunately the usually bulletproof Eagle engine decided to shed a crankshaft after a couple of laps which shattered any hope of a respectable finish. Due to others' misfortunes I eventually worked my way up to 5th but a loss of concentration led to a silly mistake and an encounter with the haybales. End of race with a few laps to go.

I've just bought myself a new computer (well, secondhand via eBay actually but a massive upgrade on the one I currently have) so we'll see if that improves my driving. :D

Apologies again Paul. I never meant to collect you on the way past and thought a safe gap was opening up. But it was me doing the overtaking and me who hit you so no blame in your direction from me. Sorry.

Back to the rest of the racing. Having got away at the start taking it too cautiously resulted in an early spin giving Fabio the lead which he was never to relinquish. A recurrence of the same cautious approach towards the end of the race handed back second place to a hard chasing Bernie, tough to pass and impossible to lose. It was hard work trying to stay focused for 45 laps so hats off again to Fabio and Bernie for driving so well.

Just one of those things Ronnie - I was committing the sin of being too cautious as well.

Learnt a lot though which is the point when you are where I am

I had qually problems as usual , couldnt settle in spun off a few times pressing too hard and to top it all I blew an engine , so for the race I fitted taller gearing in the hope of sparing the mill and a softer rear bar to aid rear tyre temps .

Got a half decent start and set off in persuite of Mad Ronnie and the Flying Fabio with Maddog Martin chomping at my pipes. I had already abandoned hopes of keeping Martin behind and sure enough he made a sling shot up the inside going into the Loop , How he got round there was unbeleivable , full sideways on biggest slide I ever saw and the tyre smoke should have left him on bare rims , but he gathered it all together was somehow still in front coming out of the corner . A few laps later he lost it coming out of the final turn , the same one which seems to spell disaster for so many , including Ronnie who gave me a very hard time after recovering from his early off.
Ronnie had been pressing hard for a few laps and finally managed to draught alongside on the back straight , side by side into BIg Bend it was a case of "he who dares wins" I dared and lost when my front wheels locked up and I skated into the ditch handing Ronnie the place . Set of in P3 and was suprised to see Ronnie off again at the final bend . So P2 it was . I set off after Fabio using a few more RPM's in the hope of unsettling him but the gap was too large and he was long gone , ended with a PB and FLOTD on my final tour so was quite pleased with the result .
Grats to Fabio commiserations to Ronnie (again) and Teamy Mike who was doing good in P4 for so long , hope the new tackle works out for you mate .

Soggies Rules  ;D

 

No, Sam, I didn't have any FPS drop, it was completely my fault for going off. When you asked about lag in post-race chat I thought you meant something else, that's why I said "yes".

Qualifying was really competitive and I narrowly took pole from Bob, but it amazes me that I'm still whole 2 tenths off a pb which I set 9 years ago when I first started driving online with a joystick. For some reason I can't control the car well at Watkins and despite trying all sorts of setup changes, it didn't help.

The start caught me out a bit when the flagman didn't wait too much to drop the green flag, but I managed to stay in front until The Loop where Bob made his move and we went around the corner side by side. This compromised our exit speed significantly and what happened next is partially due to that.

Bob's Lotus naturally gained an advantage down the straight leading to Big Bend and so I slotted behind, with the other cars following close by and having a battle of their own. I began to lift up a bit to account for any possible early braking from Bob, but he really overdid by braking some 50 meters earlier than normal, and as much as I tried to slow down and avoid tapping him, it didn't work out and so we collided, going off as a result.

It seemed other people were either involved or went off on their own as well, so it took some time to get a clear road and return in the race. Bob returned in front of me so we resumed the chase, but this time in 12th position or so.

Just as I thought, GPLRA shows that we both suffered engine problems as well as some minor suspension damage, and I couldn't use the full capacity of the revs. It felt like missing a single cylinder or something. Even so, I had the speed to keep up with those in front and reel them in, and in the next few laps I passed a few people with Bob doing the same in front.

Eventually he lost more speed and let me by, so I continued the chase on my own and caught up with some faster drivers who were harder to pass. Rick was one of them and I closed-in on him in the Esses, but then for some reason he swerved right and left on the exit of the fast right-hander leading onto the Front Straight. He must've also applied some brakes as well which was really unexpected, so I narrowly avoided him.

Rick stayed in front until The Loop and I was following behind when suddenly near the exit of the corner he again seemed to have swerved a bit and hit the brakes just when we were hard on acceleration. This resulted in a contact and Rick went off. I continued without losing too much time, but now had Sam some 6 seconds up ahead and he proved very hard to catch up.

I took the majority of the remaining laps to close up on him and at one point I thought it won't be possible, but in one of those laps he lost 1-2 seconds and now I had him well in sight. Our battle never happened though as he went off on his own and so now I was in 3rd, with Bartosz and Tom totally out of reach 20 seconds ahead.

Finally, with 3 laps to go, I went too fast into The Loop and almost made it through, but a little touch of the grass edge at the rear spun the car around and the haybale flipped it over onto the armco, and that was it. It's a shame because 3rd would've been really nice considering all the problems.

Grats to Bartosz, Tom and Sam for making up the podium!

The last F1 driver who actually enjoyed wearing the number 13, was Mike Hawthorn, who won the championship in 1958.  He promptly retired, and didn't survive for long afterwards!  It's remained unpopular since.  First there was MH, then Apollo 13, and now me!  I must have words with Tim, at being thrown this number ag'in.  Grumble!

My Cooper was a one speed car - any faster and it would get upset and slow me down.  On cold tyres at the start, I was able to push harder, and held second spot for a couple of laps.  After that, it was a mater of making sure the tyres, were nice and evenly done by race end.  This wasn't helped, by the use of one or two harmless spins along the way, to break the monotony. ::)

With only a lap left, my car did a number on me . . . t'was about to become fuelless!  I'd foolishly not fuelled it enough . . . or had I?   I wondered if I could survive more than a lap on what little remained.  Billy was around 15 seconds behind, after my minor excursions, so with enough speed and some fumes?  Decided it was not to be.  Reset, and pitted on the last corner, of the last lap, with 4th spot relinquished in the process.

It looked like there was some great racing up front, with Fabio stalwartly hanging on to 1st - "Bravo maestro!" and Bernie and Ronnie swapping 2nd to keep themselves entertained.  There could be worse things to do on a Sunday evening - provided your car doesn't do a number on you!  >:(

     

About as good as could be expected. Started on P4 & finished 4th – although it really should have been 5th but was gifted the place because Martin wanted to save 2 shillings & sixpence by skimping on that last gallon fuel.
I do quite like the One x Shift R rule. Based on substantial historical evidence I suspected my ability to survive the Loop 45 times were limited & sure enough about mid race I had an encounter with the haybales. Having one life-line allows for one indiscretion but does encourage diligent driving – for example I popped an engine in qually so I was careful to keep the revs in check at the expense of a little speed.

Ronnie, Fabio & Bernie seem to be setting to pace this season. Nevertheless enjoyed my midfield battles with Mike, Nigel even if they were mostly settled by driver errors. Also a note of thanks to Paul and Hannah. I’m not used to lapping cars but when it did happen they left an obvious gap at the right time.

I think this was Fabio’s first win in a 67 UKGPL race – well done.

Results uploaded and replays in the usual place, any Incident Reports by close of play Friday please. A review of the Privateers shows everyone complied with the single reset rule.

Decided to splash out on the Lotus again for this round and it was shaping up nicely.  I was surprised to qually 2nd and only just behind H, who I didn't expect to get anywhere near.  Come the start and I got away reasonably, surprised by the quick flag.  The lotus power then enabled me to pass H into the loop, where I almost lost it.  The power then took me past again before the fateful shunt from H.  Quite an extravagent impact, my car flying through the air.  I did brake a bit early, anxious not to throw it away so soon, it still being L1 and all, but can't agree with 50m too early, from the replay 10-20m max.  (Something else here, I am not as good as H so he probably brakes later anyway, for reference I was usually braking in the lighter bit where the racing line breaks).

I was able to rejoin but the engine had lost power and it felt as if I had traction control, gutless out of the corners and only taking 5th more than halfway down the straights.  Not sure if that was anything to do with my later spins, etc, I was pushing quite a bit into the corners though.  Caught and somehow managed to pass a few cars before I saw H behind me.  He seemed to be quicker and I wasn't sure how much damage he had so let him by.

I was soon lapped by Bartoz but was able to keep his pace for a while.  Pleased to finally finish 6th, but was hoping for better after splashing out!

Just been allowed my 1st 10 minute break from her flogging for my pathetic performance. :-\

I was quite content with my race pace at around 1:06.5 on full tanks, although my quali time was hardly any better. After some early shuffling off of the grid and a couple of haybale harpooners at the Loop I found myself tucked up behind Samb's Brabham and just ahead of him that ex-waza Tim. This was ok for the early race and I was happy just cruising along waiting for the fuel load to drop a little.

But, when you are not concentrating fully and your mind wanders, you start looking at Prib to learn where all the usual suspects are that you cannot see ahead or in your mirrors. Its about then that you realise you have missed your braking marker for the Loop and ............

ouch!,,!!!  owwww!!!! ooooooh!!  Yes!! I will concentrate next time !!! Yes Maam!! I'm very sorry. it won't happen again!!  ouch!!........ :scared: :scared:

You lucky b*****d, you lucky luck b*****d!

All I got from Gundy was a glare!  A long cold despising stare!! It's worse than torture!  I wish he'd just hit me, twice, with the ceremonial wand!!  I can't stand it anymore!!

Some rare footage of a CHR pre race briefing....don't tell everyone!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFB8WeElPdE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFB8WeElPdE)

Very convincing , a little bit worrying about the possible long term effects of eating all that sushi   :-\

Could I perhaps suggest a nice juicy steak pie or two , say twice a week for starters , might help to re adjust the hormone imbalance   ::)

@Bob - I doubt I brake later, especially in the Honda compared to your Lotus. And I also didn't expect the early braking considering we had a much slower exit off The Loop, so those 2 things were a factor, plus the fact that I had cars glued to my back and wanted to avoid being rearended myself. Bit of a doomed situation and then there was also the warp exagerating the contact... a shame.  :-\

@Evil, you know well that Pribluda is the real evil... - uninstall it once!!! ::)

First I'd like to congratulate my teammate Bartosz on a great & well-deserved debut win in Works :thumbup2: WD to Tommie & Sam for the podium too.

I was feeling all GPL'ed out towards the season break so during the Christmas hols I mothballed my wheel & only dusted it down again a few hours before the race. Pleased to find that a quick practice refreshed my lost mojo somewhat but I was a bit rusty & a persistent man-cold wasn't helping my progress. Well whatever the excuses, I clearly wasn't going to be fast enough so I just took the cheapest car that I thought I could get round the Loop 45 times (Cooper) bolted on my base setup & hoped for the best. Quallied on the back row but unfortunately got collected at Big Bend by a spinning Brab on L1 so found myself separated from the rest of the pack. After that I just tried to keep a consistent pace but despite my best efforts just couldn't find enough speed to fend off anyone. Last of the finishers... hoping to do better next time out.

Hi all,

Well, that went quite well actually! Was struggling slightly in qualifying, but still managed to quali in a posisition from which something was possible. Although surprised by the quick drop of the flag I was still very well off the line and had to hold back not to rearend Bartosz. Didn't want to switch lines as well so just tried sticking as close to him whilst not running into Hiro at the same time. It worked and when Hiro took a wide line into T2 I could overtake him for P4.

There was now a reasonable gap between the front three and the leaders, with Hiro having lost momentum as well behind me so I was in a comfortable position. Managed to get a little bit closer at the Loop when Hristo and Bob's accident accured (which in my book is H's fault but that aside, I'm no admin ;D ). Bob scared the heck out of me when he warped right across the track in front of me, but it didn't cause anymore problems for me thankfully.

I then set on to chase Bartosz but he was doing a very good job running fast times. Suddenly and unexpectedly I spun at the last corner. I was starting to wonder if the Glen was trying to get even with me, after all it was going a little bit too well. I was now 8 seconds back but managed to recover before Tim in his Waza could catch me. I even managed to shrink the gap down to 5 seconds before I spun again on the last corner! I was about to set P1 out of my head but seeing the gap being only 10 seconds I figured I might as well push a little bit harder, without risking everything by going flat out. I also promised to myself not to brake so late into the last corner anymore.

Bit by made I gained a little bit on Bartosz almost every lap, so I got the gap from 10 seconds about 25 laps before the finish, to 1 second in the last lap. However Bartosz did a very good job, drove fast and clean so I ran out of time to really challenge him and try an overtake. But I was and am still really happy with P2, Bartosz really deserved this one, he was fast and didn't make any mistakes where everyone else did.

Grats to Bartosz and Sam, and to the podium of the Privateers!

Tommie.

Sry again Tom. It wasn't a pass attempt, only when I braked your car came closer and closer and I said "oh my god again this night!"
I had an iRacing race before and at first lap I rearended the car ahead in the same way, I think I had more lag than usual last night that caught me off guard. :(

Ciao

"Some reason" perhaps would be that I had lost a bit of control and was gathering it back in.  And no, I didn't apply the brakes.  No behavior there worthy of a fist wave.


Again I got a bit wiggly and again, no, I didn't apply brakes.  This time you had 5 seconds to observe my instability but in your impatience you elected not to take the different line to the outside which I had wanted to leave open to you on the exit.  Really sorry that my lack of total mastery of the sport nearly cost you 3 to 5 seconds.  My new race strategy needs to be "stay behind the fast guys."  Maybe you can help by not getting yourself into situations that put me ahead of you.

Oh come on, Rick, 5 seconds?! You were as quick from the mid-corner (The Loop) onward and we were having just about the same acceleration, and given that the corner is taken flat out on the exit and that you had a superior car, it was impossible to do anything about avoiding you. You lost speed all of a sudden, it was not a gradual loss of control which I could've predicted. Nobody expects someone to slow down on a part of the track which is taken flat out, especially when they normally have the speed to be as fast as you and when you're fighting with them for position.

As for fist waving, I believe it's appropriate and justifies my frustration at that specific moment.

This reply makes me want to pull over as soon as I see a Waza in my mirrors ;) .

Tom.

Maybe you can give us an example how it should be done? I suppose you know in advance when someone is going to suddenly slow down ahead of you in a place on the track that is taken flat out, or when someone is going to brake 30 meters earlier than normal. Teach me how to do miracles, Tom, because it's very easy to talk from the side with a know-it-all attitude...

It's one thing wrecking someone because you drive as if there's nobody in front of you and a completely different thing when the driver ahead of you does something out of ordinary and unpredictable, and you don't have enough time to avoid contact. If you want to race with someone else, either be predictable and be ready to face the consequences. Just being ahead of someone doesn't lift up any responsibility off your shoulders.

To me it's the risks of close racing and such situations are simply racing incidents. Either that or you should never fight with anybody on the track.

I overtook some people at Mexico :) . It was clear Rick was having some problems with his Brabham, also from your close encounter with him a corner earlier. It would maybe have been better to observe how Rick went through the Loop without pushing, and if he got through OK start putting a little bit of pressure on him and observe his weak spots for a lap or two.

In case of a rearend collision, the driver behind is always at fault, except when the driver in front purposefully does something to increase the risk of the driver behind overtaking him. The driver behind can anticipate the situation much better than the driver in front which gives him an advantage. The driver in front cannot control the situation so he should focus on the racing, untill the driver behind moves alongside, usually just before a corner. When this happens the driver in front should leave room on the inside so he doesn't run into the driver behind. In my opinion :) .

There are always going to be unexpected things when running close to each other. Therefore the driver behind has to keep some kind of safety margin at first, by observing the driver in front, to make sure the future pass is done succesfully and without a collision. You also need to make sure that when you are about to pass someone he knows where you are. I usually do this by trailing his inside rear wheel on the straight prior to the corner, so he can spot me in his mirrors.

Tom.

Oh, I see, you think I had always ended up hitting people instead of overtaking them.  ::)


It was clear? You weren't even there! If you mean looking at the replay, how was it clear he had a problem? He simply lost control due to pushing too hard. And assuming he had a problem, why did he keep fighting me at full pace instead of making way? You make no sense. When you accept to fight with someone and you're being unpredictable, don't blame it on someone...


OK, Tom, let's go in a server and I'll let you follow me very close, then I'll slow down suddenly somewhere where you normally go flat out, then you tell me it's always the driver behind who is at fault.  ::)

The driver behind can only anticipate things which are within the normaly boundaries of racing and that excludes everything which is the opposite of what's expected. Otherwise you expect miracles from people and it's rather arrogant when you can't do such things yourself (or maybe you can?).

You speak about moving alongside, but I guess it hasn't dawned on you that this is only possible if you close up completely within the slipstream, especially if you're in a slower car. You're simplying things so much that you're missing the essentials.


In some situations you cannot afford to stick behind a driver for many laps and figure out where he makes mistakes before you make your move. The race is only a limited number of laps and you take up any opportunity that arises. Besides, even if you follow someone for 10 laps, he can still make a mistake you don't expect, so it's rather pointless assuming you can increase your safety margin by much just by following behind.

And you're speaking of passing - who is passing who here? I wasn't making any passes. It has nothing to do with passing...

I really don't understand why you make irritating comments like "I think it was H's fault but I'll leave to the admins" and the likes, how does it involve you at all and who's asking you? To me it's obvious what you're trying to do, but it's just laughable.

Not to comment on this in particular, I wasn't there, but don't forget you can report incidents via the srou system (see top of thread 'submit an incident report'). I don't think reporting should be seen as a last resort and anything you submit is confidential. The moderating system is in place to review any incidents impartially based on the UKGPL guidelines/rules.

so it's down to 30m now is it H?!!! Just winding you up, not that you need it, Tom certainly got a bite.

Calm down fella, no need to try and explain away every little issue.  If you criticize others you've gotta expect summat coming back atcha.  Only a friggin race, starting to worry how much this means to you.  Have a beer (assuming you drink), I can heartily recommend Weihenstephan Hefeweissbier, it's a quality beverage.

Bob.

Such a fantastic race! The Glen is one of my favourite track and my first win at UKGPL happened there nearly two years ago...
Sunday I did the same but, in a 67 car, it tastes... soooo good!!!

I started the race from 2nd place and, luckily for me, Ronnie spun at the end of the second lap and I said goodbye to everybody :rockon:
It wasn't so easy to keep the concentration for 44 laps and I had heartache when lapping some drivers but in the end I saw first the chequered flag :jumpjoy:

Grats to all the drivers and to the race organization

See you all in the hot South Africa

LONG LIVE GPL, LONG LIVE UKGPL!!

I spoke from memory, you checked the replay, so I believed you and said what it is. 30 or 50 doesn't make a difference, does it? In a way, the reason for which I said 50 was because we could easily brake some 20 meters later than usual after our compromised exit from The Loop.

I'm calm, but when someone speaks about things that involve me without being objective, I can't keep silent. Unless we resolve any such disagreements, these things will keep happening again and again, so no, it's not just one race, but it affects our racing in general.

Sorry to wind you up like that H. I was really just stating my opinion about the incidents without considering how much it might have upset you. What do you say we fight it out at Kyalami in a few weeks time? Bring it on ;D .

Tom.

No bad feelings, Tom, I'm just trying to make myself clear. It won't affect my racing in any way, whether it's racing you or someone else, I play by the same rules. Kya, yuck... don't count on me doing much at that one.  ::)

Being that I almost got sideways what made you think I could to be flat out on the exit.  What makes you think I would fight you for the position with 30 laps to go when you're at least 2 seconds per lap faster than me?  You caught up to me midway thru the esses.  Before that you were still a spec in my mirror.  After my esses bobble and your skillful avoidance of me, our gap opened up slightly going down the straight.  At this point I thought, "OK, that was scary, I'll let him by after the loop".  The rest is history.

You followed me close for about 1/4 lap.  That doesn't exactly qualify as a major impediment.  Your fist shake shows, as you say, your frustration.  So I'll say again that a little more patience would really be beneficial.  Especially to the guy in front who almost always gets the worst of it.

You didn't just get sideways, you slowed down by quite a margin - there's a big difference. If you just got sideways and carried speed, I would've had enough time to react. Given that I was trying to get into your slipstream down the following straight and that up until your slide you were just slightly slower (thanks to your entry), I cannot anticipate a sudden change in speed nor I can do anything about avoiding you unless I had gotten sideways and slowed down at about the same time as you, or a few hundreds later. If you observe the replay, I did try to slow down but it was too late for that. As you probably know, it's rather difficult to slow the car down when it's in a corner and on the limit of grip.

As for patience and waiting, I don't expect that anyone is going to let me through, why would they? So from that point of view, why should I back off instead of be on the attack? I wasn't attempting to pass you in either the exit of the esses nor inside the loop, so you can't say I took you off because I was impatient to pass you. Please take responsibility for what you did as well, because if you see it clearly, it was either both of us at fault, or neither of us. And that's just the definition of a racing incident.

I'm going to repeat myself, but: Guys, could you please continue this in PM's? If it doesn't wok, maybe just use this magic button called: "Submit an incident report" and let this be decided by a moderator ;)

Back to my race:

I wasn't happy with my qual.I've made my fastest lap at the beginning and later I couldn't improve it(probably I was just pushing to much). At the end of session. I've noticed that I'm still 3rd and leaders should be in my reach, so I decided to concentrate on the race.

My plan for the race was to stay close to the leaders and keep both Tom's behind me ;)

Start wasn't great and into Esses I was 2w with Tom(KH). Afther Esses Tom left behind and soon I had different Tom behind be ;) Because that fight with KH at the beginning of the race I've lost time and leaders gained advantage, but I wasn't worried about that because knowing both of them I was sure that they will fight with eachother and I'll be able to catch them again. They didn't disappointed me and before Big Bend I was pretty close to them. I saw that they are still fighting for position, so decided to take it easy and wait for them to make a mistake. Unfortunately they did crash and suddenly I've become a leader.
I hate to be a leader in league race, I just don't feel comfortable in this situation and I can't make myself to drive fast. Luckily I was feeling quite comfortable on cold tires and I was able to make a small gap between me and Tommie. Afther few laps Tommie made a mistake and lost few seconds, but he quickly recovered and started chasing me. I was quite worried about how fast He is chasing me. Then he made a mistake again and again he started to make me worried ;)

With 10 laps to go, I was sure that Tommie will catch me soon. I was driving as fast as a could(but still not as fast as I'm able) and luckily I saw the checked flag first :jumpjoy:

I promise this will be my last comment in the forum but since it's come this far I'll finish my point here.


Because you're massively faster than them?  I understand this is a point of view you are not familiar with.  But for many average drivers, not all, efforts to hold off drivers of your caliber for more than 1 lap usually prove pointless and unnecessarily stressful, often ending badly.


I fully admit to fault for not being in control and losing speed which triggered the chain of events leading to the incident.  And I do totally see it as an incident, which is why filing a report never crossed my mind.  But I'm not going to back off on my position that you're intense desire to immediately get by me, a driver way off your pace, even while you could see I was struggling, was too aggressive and unnecessary.

And just so you know, I'm not mad.  It's not like you wrecked a wonderful season I had going!  :laugh:  It's just disappointing to crash out 1/3 of the way into a race when your plan was to surrender the position 5 seconds later.

And that's all I got to say about that.   :angel:

To you 1 second (and probably much less in race trim on full tanks with overheating tires) is massively faster? Given that you had a car with a better engine, you can EASILY compensate by keeping me at bay down the straights. I've raced countless number of people who are normally a bit slower than me, but were able to race me on equal grounds for half the race or even the whole race sometimes. As an example, you can ask Clive Loynes if he remembers a certain Mexico race.

And what do you mean by "average drivers", you really consider yourself as such? Please, Rick, I've raced you not once before and sometimes you were even holding the upper-hand, so I'm rather surprised you're trying to sneak out by saying you're lacking pace, potential or skills.

It's a point I'm perfectly familiar with, but unless you've changed completely over the last few months, it's not a point I can apply to you as a driver. It's exactly because I've raced you properly in the past that I see this situation as not typical to how you would usually react on the track. Forgive me if I'm wrong about it.


My desire is simply to race with other people and that means overtaking them. To do that against someone in a faster car means I need to get into their slipstream and that's all I was trying to do at that moment. And believe it or not, I always feel bad when something like this happens because in the end I continue and you (in this case) spin/crash off and retire, but at the same time there's no going back.

If you observe my race report carefully, I didn't address it to you or anyone else, but just expressing my train of thoughts fresh from the race because I think it is only then that you can be as honest as possible. I wouldn't have replied and started this discussion if you didn't try to tell me what I should be doing when placed in such situations and trying to showcase your mistake as something that removes responsibility. If that wasn't your intention, fine, but it looked like that to me.

@Pod, if you don't like it, don't read it. If a forum isn't meant for discussing things, whether good or bad, I don't know what it is for.

Hehe, if you didn't file a report, then who just did?  ::)

It's not like don't like it. Actually this kid of discussions are quite entertaining ;) Problem is, that it don't solve anything. In most cases both drivers in the end will agree, that they don't agree with each other  ::)

In my opinion submitting a race report is the only way to clear the air. Also it doesn't have to end with penalty, all you have to do is to ask for no penalty for the other driver.

Just submitted my statement for L1 shunt, I didn't report this so must be a moderator action...or another racer. 

The racing is fun for me and while I acknowledge the need for moderation I consider it to be over the top, sometimes more stringent than in real F1.  Everyone is racing to have a good time and I'm sure there are no deliberate premeditated actions.  I do enjoy the racing though, which I why I am still here (hopefully I won't be booted out for this!).

Roll on Kya, one of my favourites.

Bob

Don't know.  Ask the moderators.

Just to clarify anyone can submit a report not just those drivers directly involved. It doesn't really matter who did. My personal position, as a division moderator, is I wouldn't normally submit individual reports. If I was going to look at incidents mentioned in the forum I would review the whole race.

Since it wasn't either Rick or Bob, whoever did I can only pity them... Neither case has anything to do with them and that leaves personal grudge as the only reason for them to submit a report on both incidents.  ::)

Hmm, things got personal. Grats to former teamie Bartosz on the win. Shame I couldn't go for this one, but it was too much of a risk with no practice on full tanks and an unwieldy Honda. Kyalami's not holding out much hope either, despite the fact I luuuurve the place.

Why do you pity them? I know for a fact league moderators like it if reports are filed, just to make sure races are dealt with cleanly. It sounds like you are intimidating people not to file reports for accidents, which is against the wish of the people running the league, as Tim literally asked us to file reports in this very thread. I doubt it very much anyone would file any report because they held a grudge, but to prevent people from making the same mistakes twice. That's how it was at GPLRacer's, T League's, Fun-Liga's, or any other league I've driven races in. And this league appears to be no different.

Perhaps it's unusual that a driver not directly involved files the report, but as you explained to me, you've got nothing to worry about so I don't understand why you want to keep things quiet. I trust they'll do what's right and don't issue any unfair penalties.

Just to make things clear, I didn't file a report for this race, but I will file a report should it happen that I collide with someone else. I can only learn from my mistakes if I know I made them or not.

Please don't take it personal Hristo, I don't want to attack you at all, I just disagree with you that's all. I'd hate to see another message written by an annoyed Hristo. That is not my goal. My goal is to state my opinion about the subject you just brought forward in your post I quoted. That's it 8) .

Tom.

Last orders for this on any reports gents. Looking to close it off soon.

This is the first time someone files a report for an incident I'm involved in and they are not, in fact - 2 separate incidents. First time in what, 6 years? I'm 100% sure it wouldn't have happened if the incidents weren't mentioned and discussed here on the forum, so the reasons why someone did it are obvious.

It has nothing to do with intimidation because I have no reason to intimidate. If someone feels intimidated then that's their own problem. And no, I'm not worried, in fact I'm not even going to add anything to those reports - it's all in the admin's hands, I have trust in fair and objective judgement. Besides, I already said more than enough in this thread concerning the incidents.

I don't take it personal at all. If I did, some people would see special treatment from me on the track, but that doesn't happen and won't happen in the future unless I have to defend myself. The rules would prevent us to run with people who may end up deserving "special" treatment. Nonetheless I'll be watchful on people's habits when racing me compared to how they race other people; any difference would become obvious and revealing to what their intentions are.

As for being annoyed, wouldn't you be if you were in my shoes? Think carefully about it before answering...

Yes the reason is obvious, he wants to know who is wrong and who is right.

What do you mean with special treatment?

I wouldn't be annoyed. As I said, I can only learn from my mistakes if I know I made them or not.

In the case you would get a penalty, would you feel angry towards me? I lengthened the discussion about the incident involving Rick, so thought I'd ask.

Tom. :)

Hristo I like to think we are a friendly league. You do some great posts but let's calm down mate - does it matter you were reported - there's no reason to get upset.
I'll treat you as I would everyone else re modding...

And why all that interest all of a sudden? I've been involved in incidents in the past...


I mean changing your driving style against another driver whenever you race him/her directly.


You won't be annoyed if someone who makes a mistake blames it on you for not finding a way to compensate for their mistake?


I won't feel anything regardless if I get a penalty or not. I'll just keep something in mind for the future and you'll notice it in how I approach races and do future race reports. Why should I be angry with you anyway? Take me out of a race first and then I could be!  :D


I don't doubt you will, Tim, and I'm not so annoyed for being reported but for people trying to blame their own faults on me instead of taking responsibility. Case closed anyway, looking forward to your moderation report.

Filing a report is not about trying to blame the cause of the crash on your opponent. It's about people learning from their mistakes to make sure it doesn't happen again. Filing reports should result in cleaner races and therefore more fun.

Good to know there are no problems between us :angel: .

Tom.

Well, I do find reporting someone elses incident rather odd myself. But there can be good reasons for that, if you think the drivers involved are prone to similar misbehaving or that they are gaining an unfair advantage by getting away with things they shouldnt. I don't consider it particularly gentlemen like, but it is something I myself would probably feel ready to do in the right circumstances.

However, I would also feel appropriate to attach my face to it. Whats the point in taking the responsibility of filing a report, and at the same time trying to avoid to be publicly associated with that action. If your reasons are defensible, making them clear in the forum or even privately through a pm is the most respectful way to behave, which comes with the obvious advantage of clearing off possible misunderstandings. I suspect thats what annoys H the most.

Sorry I poked my nose, this is not any of my business in this circumstance, but it could well be in the future since we all end up being involved in each other races sooner or later. Also, I better make clear that I dont even have looked at the on track incidents you are talking about, the issue transcends them I think.

What it's supposed to be about and what it actually is are two different things. I seriously doubt someone would bother filing a report for an accident he/she is not involved in just to try and learn anything in regard to racing/driving.  ;) It should be obvious to you that by reporting such incidents, there can be only two outcomes: either it's labeled as a racing incident or the driver behind is penalized. The one in front would never get penalized regardless of what they have done. So you can see where my suspicion for the reasons of reporting come from...

And also, would you learn more from what the drivers involved in the incidents have discussed between themselves (as it happened in this case) or from what a moderator's decision is going to be? Anyway - what's done is done. UKGPL has had fair judgement on incidents in 99% of the time, so I believe this is not going to be different.

@AA - you nailed it, yes, although by seeing the true reasons of the person who reported I'm not annoyed so much from it, because it's like they're claiming "I can't beat you on the track, so I'll play dirty off-track and use whatever means possible to handicap you". Isn't it what one would call jealousy? Pity and laughter is the only thing I have in store for such people.

And you're right it can affect future races, but there's an easy way to avoid all this - avoid being honest in your race reports. I don't like it, but if that's what it takes, then so be it.

I wouldn't call it jealousy. The driver reporting the incident is trying to make sure something similar doesn't happen again. There is no point filing reports whilst holding a grudge. League moderators are going to review to incident objectively anyway, so if you file a report only based on holding a grudge you'll get nowhere.

There is only one reason for not being honest, and that is when you feel you should get penalised, but you don't want to. Otherwise I would have nothing to hide. So there's no need to avoid being honest. Also, I've seen drivers apologising about an incident right after a race, in order to show that they knew what they did was wrong and they won't do it again. This sometimes stops the opponent from filing a report because the objective is already achieved.

Tom.

It WILL happen again. It's part of racing.

What I meant by being honest or not in your race reports is speaking out incidents that you were involved in detail and from your own point of view, as well as showing how you feel about it.

Moderation published

Just want to point out 2 things:

1) Less than a second in the 1st accident is quite a lot of distance on the track. There is a limit on how early you can brake to provide a buffer for the driver ahead. Since it's lap 1 though, I do agree with your overall view on it.

2) The quote you provide for the 2nd incident does not apply to it at all:

"Never run into the back of someone in front of you. This is probably one of the silliest things one driver can do to another. There’s few excuses here. If you are behind then you have the responsibility to drive in a manner that will not lead to you running into a car ahead. It doesn't matter if you're faster, think you have the right to be let by, are more talented, or think that all slower drivers should not hold up faster drivers. If you're behind someone then that's your tough luck. You have to earn your pass the same as anyone. However frustrated you may be, or whatever, it is your responsibility not to run into the car in front of you. Even if their braking zones occur earlier than yours would normally, then tough luck. You have to anticipate these possibilities and drive accordingly."

This quote is in its majority for cases where the driver behind is attempting a pass or running too close before a corner, usually on a straight, and when the car ahead does nothing out of ordinary, but still gets rearended.

In our case it's a corner exit which is normally taken flat or nearly flat out, the driver ahead loses speed all of a sudden, and the driver behind is caught by surprise, tries to react, but runs out of time. There is a limit to how much you can do to react on time, especially within a corner and within certain distance of another driver.

If we penalize the following driver for any contact due to mistakes of the driver in front, then slipstreaming anyone would become too high of a risk to be worth taking. What would happen if I tap the brakes next time I have someone on my back (brake test) in a place on the track that you don't normally brake? Expect a miracle from them and have them penalized if they're unable to deliver?

I'm not appealing, but I hope we can be more tolerant on such situations in the future. You have to account for things which are part of racing and are inevitable to happen again and again. Everyone carries some responsibility for being predictable and safe for those around them, whether in front or behind. I don't want to pay for other people's mistakes.

Thank you for the moderation. Obviously as with any accident these ones must have been very tricky to moderate so thanks for your hard work and clear explanations.

Tom.

What would happen is I would track you down and run you off the track! ;D .

Tom.

Not if I retire, you continue, I report you and you get penalized.  ;)

Can somebody explain to me, what is a normal braking point at L1?

1 second earlier than H?.... Sorry couldn't resisit, I'll keep my beak out of that one!

At Watkins and assuming we're talking about the Loop then for me on L1 it's way earlier than nessicary unless through some small miracle I'm leading.
I'd probably lift 50 meters before the brow minimum and then start gently braking maybe 40 meters before said brow, if the traffic is heavy or in dangerous positions then I'd lift/brake earlier still so I could hopefully avoid any shinanigens :)

The first big braking zone of any track on Lap 1 can never really be said to have a 'normal' point, it's nearly all traffic dependant

 ;D :thumbup2:

------

At most races including The Glen, I brake about half a second earlier than usual, but not as intense. This allows me to sometimes avoid cars crashing out in front of me, or outbraking themselves behind me when I notice them in time in my mirrors, by applying the throttle again for a very short amount of time. Not being on the limit allows me to move away from the racing line quicker and notice what the people around me are doing more because I'm not pushing to control the car. Taking it too easy is dangerous as well (pace might surprise people behind you) so I try to push to about 85 - 90 % on the first lap. Unless I'm in front because then I don't have to worry about hitting cars from behind myself.

Also forgot to add that due to the harmonica effect cars in the back of the pack will have to brake much sooner than the guys up front as well, so this affects your braking point in lap 1 too.

Another tactic I use in the race is when a guy behind me is running real close and is making me nervous he might run into the back of me under braking, I take a slightly defensive line and try to stay just inside of the racing line until the apex. This way when the guy behind me outbrakes himself he'll have the room to avoid me.

Because there is virtually no slipstream in the 67's (it's too short for me to use anyway) I just run behind the inner rear wheel of the guy in front so he should be able to see me in his inner mirror clearly and knows where I'm at. I usually try to run as close to him as possible on the straight, but if I can't get alongside I use the same method as I would in lap 1, braking slightly earlier but less intense, and hope the guy in front outbrakes himself and either goes off or compromises his exit so I can get alongside in the next corner.

Tom.

There is no clear rule on where you brake on Lap 1 - you don't arrive at full speed to most corners most of the time, you have cars not just in front of you (unless you're in the lead), but also very close behind you, so you need to be as predictable as possible.

Lifting up the throttle slightly before applying the brakes, just to signal to those around you that you begin to decelerate, is very important. You should also consider that by getting a slow exit out of a corner due to going side by side with someone automatically gives you slower top speed down the next straight, so that obviously shortens your braking zone.

If the driver in the lead brakes early, the driver behind has to brake earlier, and the drivers behind even earlier, so there is a limit to how much earlier you can brake in reaction to those in front of you, especially if it happens all of a sudden without warning and way before the usual braking mark. It's a situation that is inevitably going to lead to incidents now and then, and that is why, just as with the other incident (but for different reasons), I don't agree with the statement "the driver behind is ALWAYS at fault". That's silly to me. It puts unreal expectations on drivers to perform beyond the scope of human reaction and car physics.

Oh, and one more thing - I've had been involved in HUGE amount of similar situations over the years where I've been in the lead and I spot someone braking too late behind me. Do I sit around and wait to get rearended? No, I lift up the brake pedal, prolong my braking zone, even accelerate for a moment, just so I give the driver behind some more room, even if it means going wide into the corner. Especially when I realize it's partially my fault for having such situation happening due to braking a bit early than the driver behind expects. So I'd rather lose time or position by going wide or even go off on my own, than just get hit. You would've seen people getting penalized 10x more if I wasn't doing that every time...

You're in the minority with that one Hristo. 99% of people I race with, when being overtaken tend to react instinctively based on whether the overtaker is in the mirrors or not.

I find Watkins Glen is a difficult circuit to overtake cleanly on anyway because the place is so damn quick. There's only 1 place you can do a clean contested overtake with enough of a slower speed differential and driving styles, and that's basically a last-corner lunge up the inside. Everything else is 3rd gear upwards.

I am very disappointed with this moderation. As I wasn't resisting and being helpful <ahem> I thought Ronnie and I should swap places ;)

In all seriousness, I am very glad there was no penalty attached either way - it was just racing and I certainly learnt from it. Thanks Tim.

I always thought the spoon was the best overtaking opertunity at the Glen , not that I do much of it these days  :-[

I'd like to avoid any long debates but there are these two;

There is also a reduction of 1 place to recognise the partial loss of control. Brake testing though is a whole different issue.

Of course, Tim. But the reason I mentioned it is that it doesn't make any difference whatsoever for the driver behind. Whether it's loss of control or intentional brake test, the driver behind has to react to the same thing - unexpected change of speed. Would you penalize the driver behind every time it's loss of control and never when it's intentional brake test (and even penalize the driver in front)? In fact, would you even be able to distinguish between the two? I doubt it.

Not saying I'll ever brake test of course, but just giving you an example that things are always the same for the driver behind and the driver in front carries a lot of responsibility for being predictable, and should be prepared to pay the price for any failure to do so. It's part of racing, as I mentioned already.

IMO you're mixing up agressive driving with the intention to get in front of someone at all cost with being surprised by an unusual behaviour of the car in front. Both can lead to the same results, but the reasons are totally different.

P.S. I don't really understand what "total loss of control" means. You're either in control or not. You either slow down all of a sudden or not.

I see your point but, and I don't know how everyone else feels, if someone was guilty of deliberately brake testing others it would go beyond normal penalty rules and I doubt anyone else would want to drive with them. I do disagree with you in that the driver in front must pay a price if they lose control, the whole ethos here is not to penalise someone based on their driving skill more their judgement and racecraft. I hope that makes sense, difficult to word it.
Some things are open to interpretation but the rules in this instance are pretty clear cut and don't leave much margin although the penalties do take into account a driver losing control by a progressive reduction in their severity.

Finally, I do very much appreciate that some chassis involve much more effort to race/pass then others and require a tighter style of driving. However, the way it works here in general, normally those with the more 'exacting' chassis would be those expected to be more adept in their racecraft and car control. I mean that in a positive way.

What I mean by "the driver in front must pay the price" is not that he should get penalized, but that if the driver behind can't avoid hitting them, they should accept the consquences of the collision. It's nothing to do with penalties for the driver in front, but to label it as a racing incident when the circumstances are such that neither driver was at fault (or both's fault, depending on point of view).

As for racing craft, there is no handicap system here in the Graduates, so you don't always end up with fast drivers running slow cars and vice versa. With the exception of single-chassis teams like Hiki-Waza, anyone can run any car. You can't automatically expect better judgement, better reactions and better driving from someone in a slow car, and penalize them if they fail to that. Nobody is driving with the intention to put others in danger and that includes me, but when they put themselves in a dangerous situation there's a limit to how much those around them can do.

I often get a wheel on the grass, lift off, over correct and suddenly I am starting to spin, sometimes I can save it, often not but I am definitely not fully in control. Other times I will make a bigger mistake and spin - at that point I am a passenger - i.e. "total loss of control"

What I mean by "the driver in front must pay the price" is not that he should get penalized, but that if the driver behind can't avoid hitting them, they should accept the consquences of the collision. It's nothing to do with penalties for the driver in front, but to label it as a racing incident when the circumstances are such that neither driver was at fault (or both's fault, depending on point of view).

Words fail me with the above thinking. Right or wrong it sounds very much like I'm coming through, I'm faster, get out of my way or else!!!!!.

Thank god (thats the moderator by the way) that we adopt a more civilised approach in the Privateers series. Paul, sorry again mate.

Well you stil fail to UNDERSTAND the meaning of my thinking and my words then. It's not something you do intentionally! It's not like you're actually thinking "I'M COMING THROUGH, I'M FASTER, GET OUT OF MY WAY". I'm really becoming short of words to explain it in any different manner so some of you can actually grasp the reality of such situations... it's like you're totally failing to understand the idea of racing and the risks involved, neither of which have anything to do with the arrogance and lack of respect you try to imply on my behalf.

Do I really have to go to the extremes and sacrifice a couple of my own races, just to prove the validity of my point? Would you change your way of thinking if I let myself be taken out by drivers behind with actions that take them completely out by surprise and they're unable to react, would you blame them 100% for such incidents and say they employed the "I'M COMING THROUGH, GET OUT OF MY WAY" mentality? This is becoming really frustrating...

@Paul - does it matter whether you're completely spinning or not for how much you experience a sudden loss of speed? You could be in complete lack of control by your definiton and still carry a lot of speed so nobody is going to hit you from behind, or you could be momentarily sliding and trying to correct it, yet lose a lot of speed as a result. In fact, it's PRECISELY the effort to regain control of the car which leads to sudden loss of speed, because otherwise the car would simply continue with its previous speed and direction...

The point is not the relative speed - it is the definition of "Total loss of control". Just trying to clarify. See your points, not trying to argue those one way or the other - it is just the way I interpret that phrase.

Cheers

Sure, I know what you mean. But in this case it's only when there's the presence of the so defined "total loss of control" that the driver behind is lifted up from some of the responsibility and given a much lesser penalty, if any at all. That's what I disagree with, because the consquences of such "total loss of control" are much easier to anticipate than any effort to regain control by the driver in front.

See your point. I can't really comment as I've never been the faster driver ;)

“As for patience and waiting, I don't expect that anyone is going to let me through, why would they? So from that point of view, why should I back off instead of be on the attack?”

“In some situations you cannot afford to stick behind a driver for many laps and figure out where he makes mistakes before you make your move. The race is only a limited number of laps and you take up any opportunity that arises.”

“What I mean by "the driver in front must pay the price" is not that he should get penalized, but that if the driver behind can't avoid hitting them, they should accept the consequences of the collision.”

If by previously saying the above you did not imply “I’m coming through, I’m faster, get out of my way or else”, I apologise. But I think even you can see how your statements might be interpreted. If you meant sometimes you are behind a driver who holds you up, who has more straight line speed, faster in the corners, able to brake later, simply driving excellent lines which do not afford you a passing opportunity, whatever. That sometimes you just have to wait for your chance to pass safely and if they don’t make a mistake settle for your current position. Well then we are in complete agreement. If not, we just beg to differ on this topic and should both move on.

The point is, you cannot simply wait for a pass to happen. You create your opportunities. Especially if you're in a slower car, you have no other option. If you rely on the driver in front making a mistake while hanging behind applying no pressure, then that's no racing at all.

The proper way to do it is close up, apply pressure, use any opportunity you get and go for it. In the situations we're discussing, I was still at the early stage of closing up and applying pressure, not going for a pass or disregarding the fact that I have a car in front and decided to push it off track. That is never the intention.

Everyone should know the risks of racing (especially online in GPL with the warp issue) and know that if they make a mistake, it may bite them back. It's just the way it is and has nothing to do with what mine, yours or anyone else's intentions really are. The question is do we penalize such outcomes based on flawed logic and limited understanding, or do we simply accept it as part of racing and move on?

Meaning?

That to me suggests you think that people here don't know what they are doing with their 'limited understanding'.  I think you'll find that there are some very knowledgeable people involved in the processes and decisions that are made which try to make the racing fair while still being enjoyable for the majority.  You cannot expect a set of rules and regulations that cater for every single event and situation.  Sometimes circumstances work against you and you get unlucky, sometimes life just aint fair, but lets not get into the every single little minute detail of incidents and accidents or all you will end up doing is driving (excuse the pun) people away who are here for light relief, fun (remember that!) and ultimately enjoyment.  If you are that passionate that the rules are based on fatally 'flawed logic' then why race?

Happy to discuss as you rightly have done, and you made your point and initially I thought very well, right up until you got personal, surely time to move on!

Hi Hristo,

I can't understand why you're saying this as well. The 'Recommended Driver Behaviour' page has been there for over 10 years now, every league uses it and you're now saying it's flawed logic and the people who wrote it or use it have a limited understanding of the sport? So, everyone who runs a GPL League is wrong and you are right? Or did I misunderstand what you are trying to say?

The whole deal here is that when you run into someone from behind, you get penalised. So don't do it. Now thát's racing. When you still think you have to perform miracles in order not to hit someone from behind, you really have to reread the mentioned 'Recommended Driver Behaviour' page again, as it describes in detail how to avoid such incidents. Thát is the norm, thát is the racing.

That is also what I meant with 'learning from it'. You've seen now that such situations as the ones you've been in at The Glen can cost you a penalty, not no mention wrecking another driver's race. The penalty is there so you try to avoid getting into the same situation at Kyalami. If you are unsure how, you should take a look at the 'Recommended Driver Behaviour' page.

Also, it doesn't matter if you are wrong, you don't have to attack people just because they don't agree with you. There have been numerous posts now in which you literally call people arrogant and respectless towards you. There have been no posts in which people curse at you. Of course, some people who wrote in this thread could have been annoyed, but they never cursed at you up until now, yet you cursed back at them. I find this offensive. You should be able to contain yourself just like the rest of us, so we can discuss things in this forum politely. If you disagree we can always take it to the track and fight it out there.

Tom.

You've obviously not been following the discussion carefully if you assumed that by "flawed logic and limited understanding" I was aiming at people (or someone in particular) or at the rules as a whole! Why do you force me to repeat myself if you're not going to bother reading it? Anyway, here again, this is what's flawed in its logic and created from limited understanding:

The way total loss of control is interpreted as harder to predict and avoid in case of two cars following each other closely, and the way partial loss of control is supposed to be something which puts the responsibility onto the driver behind and gets him penalized as a result. As I said a few posts earlier, the reality is completely the opposite, and if you care to read up, you'll see why.

I understand very well the need for consistent rules and this always puts limitation, leading to situations which don't fit well within those set of rules. But when was the last time any of our current rules have been thoroughly reviewed like I'm trying to do here and been changed? We're basically using rules which remain unchanged for years. Just because they've worked fairly well for the majority of the incidents so far does not make them absolute.

And I don't see how any of what I see gets personal. Just like someone replies to something I write, I reply back if I disagree and have something to add. If that's what getting personal means, then it's not a bad thing. The idea is not to try and prove to someone you're better, but to prove a point regarding our racing. It's all in good faith to improve future racing, nothing more.

And Tim, I don't blame you for the penalties at all. You judged the situation based on the set of rules and your own observation of the replay, so that's fair enough to me.

You need to have a word with yourself!  You talk to people as if you are better than them.  Not acceptable. 

Just because you are recognised as the fastest driver that regularly competes at UKGPL, it does not give you the right to talk down at someone.  I, and I'm sure Tom and everyone else HAVE read the thread, in detail and interpreted it in the way we decide to, not in the way you obviously feel it should be.

And yes before you come out with it, I do have a problem with you, yes I know you don't care; That, is you're problem.  In your world its all about you!

I will not add any further comment, because clearly you're not interested in anyone else's opinions other than your own. So carry on on your own arrogant course and us mere mortals will sit quietly at the back trying to enjoy what we're doing rather than picking it apart bit by bit.

I am not expressing an opinion either way but can I suggest that we just stop posting on this thread down for a while. Nothing positive is being added. The race is long done. Perhaps it would be better to agree to disagree?

Talk down? Or is it that people feel that way because of their own personal problems. Is it that simply by employing my simracing experience to discuss these issues it leads to some people, when they lose the argument, take a 180 degree turn and start acting as victims, dropping the discussion and trying to make look as the bad guy?

This is exactly what you've just done as well, Steve. I explain to you what I meant and which you obviously misunderstood, and instead of admitting you assumed wrong and try to think on what I actually said, you try to make me look as the one who has a problem.

Where have I said something that claims "I'm better than you"? Find a single point of those I made which I hasn't been backed up, proven or and validated by the hundreds of races I've been in, racing on the limit and fighting for victories. You and everyone else who thinks like you do need to have a word with yourselves, not me. The person who reported me without even being part of those incidents is a bright example. It's all in your heads, so don't blame it on me...

Well,ok I will comment again!

Look this is all getting a bit over the top and unnecessary.

My only personal problem is a very annoying cat who wants fed all the time!  But that's nothing to do with this so I wont go into details.

I think it is quite unnecessary to insinuate that me or anyone else has personal problems, but if that's the way you feel then so be it.

I'm not sure how you make out I've turned anything and become a victim. I have nothing to be a victim of.

Now try reading this and previous posts in a soft nice calm voice rather that the angry oppressive tone that you seem to apply to everything else!  You may then see that most here are just as passionate about the real and simulated racing world as you, but sadly don't have the same mastery in this particular area that you have impressively achieved.

Anyway as Uncle Paul has suggested, I'll agree to have a different point of view, because actually I don't disagree with your principle point; I don't necessarily fully agree with it either but it is an area worthy of review.

Have a nice day!

If it's unnecessary, why did you start with it in the first place? I'm simply throwing the ball back at you. We were merely discussing something specific when you suddenly had to jump to conclusions about something entirely different - that I need to have a word with myself, that I think I'm better than others and that I talk down to them and how all that's unacceptable to you.

How did you come to those conclusions is beyond me, but to me it certainly speaks of personal problems or some grudge against me, whether you're aware of it or not. But I guess you're going to turn what I just said around as well and say how I'm talking you down again. This is what playing the victim role means, Steve. Your own doing, not mine. I'm not even interested in this, it's completely off topic, but since you brought it up, here you have my answer. Don't go saying it's me who's turning it into a personal thing, because I'm simply reacting to what's thrown at me.

In any case, if you really see the logic in what I spoke in regard to racing and you agree with the principle, then there was no need to say all those other things. If you disagree with what I said, either bring up constructive criticism as I try to do or ignore it.

I've looked at the replay for this one and it seems simple to me. Hristo caught Rick up quite quickly and could see him struggling to control his car in the corners before the incident occurred. Rather than exercising a little caution he got even closer to Rick in the Loop despite the fact Rick was continuing to slide around, and the inevitable occurred - Hristo hit Rick up the back. As a result 100% of the blame lies with Hristo and the rules were applied correctly by the moderator. End of story - move along folks, nothing to see here.

I've hit people up the back a few times (just ask Evil!) but at least I show some contrition afterwards (in some cases I have reported myself to the moderator). Hristo, if you just said sorry to Rick then I don't think there would have been any need for all of this narky debate afterwards.

However for us mortals it is nice to see that the aliens can get it wrong every now and then  ;D

I completely agree :) . Unfortunately Hristo doesn't seem to agree with the rules. I just hope he'll use more caution when racing the next time.

Tom.

Wow! Personal problems, a grudge, victimised and not in control of my mind enough to recognise it! I really must go see my doctor.

Now where did I put those two pencils to stick up my nose.

Guys I've never closed off a topic before as I don't think it's the way to do things but let's leave it now. Seven pages on one race thread is liable to crash the srou system ;)
I'm not belittling the issues raised which should be discussed but I think we just need to take a step back (and a breather)...

Yes let's bring on Kyalami! I'm down to a 1:19.21 now, although admittedly it's in the Lotus. Did 1:19.60 in the Fez but perhaps there's more there. I just gave the Lotus a quick run to see how fast that time in the Fez really was and it seems it was pretty fast because the Lotus was only faster due to the Cosworth V8 in the back. Still, it boggles the mind how Phil Woodward is able to do a 1:17.72 in the Fez and is able to go even faster in a Lotus! Still, being only a second down on a WTCC Macau race winner isn't too bad even if I do say so myself ;D .

Tom.