SimRacing.org.uk

As we can see the SROU forum is back up,( Thanks to Giz  ;))  it leaves us only 36 hrs before the next GT race is due to start to sort out the grid places.

The permanent teams would probably be OK and a few "subs" can be drafted in where required.

It is the Black and White teams that will now cause a problem. I was considering postponing the REIMS race for a week,  but unless anyone has any major objections I think we can just pull this off.

SO, ANYONE WANTING TO TAKE UP ANY OF THE PLACES IN THE BLACK AND WHITE TEAMS FOR THE REIMS RACE SHOULD POST HERE ASAP!!.
PLACES WILL BE ALLOCATED  AS BEFORE , IN ORDER OF POSTING ON THIS THREAD.



The next race in the short GT series is at Reims

date:-     4th Feb 2011

time:-     9:00 p.m.  UK local time

where:-   UKGPL chatroom in IGOR ( password for chat "savage")

Race Length:-  30 laps

Server password:-  Password will be posted on the UKGPL forum 24hrs before the race start and will be available in the chatroom before the race.

Qualification will be 20minutes starting at 9:00 p.m. Please do not leave the pits until 20 minutes is left on countdown timer. This is to allow all competitors to join the server.

The current permanent teams are.

Blue Team         Blue Team cars
Nicky Ickx             Ferrari
Paul Badblood        Ferrari
Lupo Minaro          Ferrari

Red Team              Red Team cars
Pod Zuitek                Chapp 2F
Ronnie Peterson         Porsche
Blito                         Lola

Green Team       Green Team cars
Phil Thornton            Lola
Evilclive                   Ford MK1
Francesco                Ferrari

Orange Team        Orange Team cars
Goran Jonsson           Lola
Hristo Itchov            Chapp 2F
Happy Al                  Mirage

Drivers are permitted to switch between the 3 available team cars race by race.

There are 2 further teams available for "part time" drivers although these could be converted to a Permanent Team, if 3 drivers can commit to attending all races.
To guarantee yourself a drive in the White or Black Teams you will need to post your intention to drive below before midnight on Thursday and places will be allocated in the order in which the cars are listed.


      White Team cars available for hire
1st applicant      Ford Mk1              Natan
2nd applicant      Ferrari                 Fulvio            
3rd applicant      Chapp 2D             Samb          

      Black Team cars available for hire
4th applicant      Mirage                 Cookie              
5th applicant      Chapp 2F             Jhalii        
6th applicant      Porsche              

There is space for a single Privateer wildcard entrant if all other places are filled in a..........Chapp 2D.

Rules:-
To score points you must complete the race. No finish= NoPoints
Each driver is permitted a SINGLE  "SHIFT-R" per race regardless of fault, which must be followed by a Stop'nGo in the Pitlane within 2 laps, or the driver will be DQ'd.

Still problematic I think. Took me three goes to log in :(

I'll be there this time.

if it is not a problem ill take my seat in a Black team driving chap2f, same as last fun gt race.


Juha

25 or 30 laps at Reims??

As this is basically a "test" series and as yet we have not noticed any unreliability traits in these cars ( the exception being one or two Lola engines failing) I am going to say 30 laps which should mean about 60mins racing.

I hope the current instability of the forum does not cause us any more problems.

I'd like to continue my not-so-brilliant services for the White team again this race  :). It'd be nice to be able to drive the Chap again but should anyone in my team object, I'll be happy to swap cars.

If I manage 5 laps I'll be pleased - I keep ending up in the corn - must be rye 'cos it is REALLY tough :)

Yeah, you can actually skate OVER it. If it happens to you, remember to come off it at good speed, otherwise you could be left hanging in the balance on the edge of it, unable to move either way. Wonder how I know that? :smartass:

This has the potential of being a very lonely and boring race.  ::)

personally im really looking forward to this one....

Tell me about it, even at world record pace with a slip stream, the Porsche is seriously struggling on this track.

I can do steady 2:08/9 in the Fezza but I keep crashing at Turn 2 - haven't managed more than 3 clean laps in a row... It may well be lonely for H. He'll be the only one left :D

Well if you keep crashing it means you're constantly going over your (current) limit. Just ease off and let it come to you. No point repeating the same thing each lap.

hi guys ,

i have altered the default setups so they have some oversteer

http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=6605

there are two sets one for normal people that like a little oversteer and the other for abnormal people like clive :)

john

I'd like to join Samb again in the White team driving Ferrari :)
Ciao

To be clear - I tried easing off at T2 a couple of times and then lost it at T3 because the line was odd - difficulty is trying to ease back without losing rhythm. I have found interesting ways of crashing. Also tried taking a tighter line into T2 and then span on the grass lol.

Difficulty is finding a safe speed whilst maintaining velocity - interesting learning experience. At the final turn I have outbraked myself a few times and found an interesting line behind the hoardings. This is great fun but I don't have a 'feel' for the setup like in the 65's so I am pretty much running the default all the time.

Appreciate the in put though.

Hi guys

if its possible

ill take my seat in a Black team driving the Mirage

greets

Axel

Clive and Goran,
T7 server is ready listening on Igor.
I've set 30 laps for Int Long race.

John thx for setups :)

Ciao

According to GPL rank, your PB is a 2:07 and you are one place above me n the timesheet! Concentrate on keeping the car on the road and we may be in for some fun!

I'm just worried about the slower drivers pushing me into that corn <ahem> ;)

If you are having probs at T2 Paul, and by T2 I am assuming you mean the right hander with the blind crest?, it might be because you are "backing off" mid corner?

I find with that corner that I need to brake/ease off and settle the car just before it bottoms in the dip before the bend and once I am on the uphill side (past the point at which the suspension might bottom) I can apply some power and attack the corner.

In all mods I find that cars seem to be more stable and responsive when under power, not necessarily full power, but positively being pushed.

backing off the power mid corner can cause all sorts of weight transfer issues from rear to front and loss of adhesion at the rear just when you want it most. Occasionally ( very occasionally!!) you can use that effect to get you out of trouble if you need the car to rapidly change direction to avoid some wreckage, but it is a 50/50 move in my book and might just as easily end in disaster.

It is the Courbe Annie Bousquet, Clive. That is the one you describe I think. The issue I am having is that as the corner tightens, the car isn't turning proerly into the corner and I slide wide - and then into, onto, over the corn! Game over!

I am finding it really hard to get the right line and find an apex. Either I go too tight and get the right hand wheels on the grass which makes it almost impossible to control into T3 (kink before Virage de Muizon) - or, and this is the more usual scenario, I go too wide and end up on the grass heading for the inviting cornfield. As you say, if I lift mid-corner, I lose it, generally a spin.

I think I am just going to have to brake earlier (at the moment I brake when I can read the 100m sign at the bottom of the approach) and stay within my limits. Might lose a second or two but better that than a wheel.

Incidentally, this is where you went wide in a BRM in the pre-race practice race and I was so busy watching you, I followed. lol I then marvelled at your ability to hold the speed through the next corners until you span in front of me shattering my illusions of your sheer brilliance :D

I was sandbagging of course  ::)


Maybe, turn in at the bottom of the dip a little later, and aim for an apex right on the brow of that rise and keep the steering lock on until you can see where the track goes. better to be in the middle of the circuit and still going well rather than running out to the edge and the cornfield.

Thanks. I'll have to get home and try it. My work aren't keen on me bringing in a steering wheel for some reason ;)

Because we had problems with SROU I was sure that race will be postponed and I have changed my plans. Now I might not be able to change them and race tonight. I have 24 tokens to spend on replacement driver. Anybody wants to race tonight in Chaparral 2f?

unlikely I will be there tonight.  Shame as I looking forward to not spinning at the final turn this time  :-[

Never mind, next race hopefully! :)

1 ford mk 1 in white color  ;D

Made 2 silly mistakes, took my Shift & R for the first one, second one stuck in the armco = game over.

A bit mad with myself.

Me too  :taz:  T2 corn both times  >:(

i got side-swiped by an over ambitious Lola on lap one and took my first shift-r.  Ran in a comfortable last place untill the car slid off the road for no apparent reason and stopped with no drive to the wheels... not sure what it was stuck on.
basically, a very dull and boring race with another big heapful of disappointment. Thus far this series is turning into a bit of a let-down :(

Me too but no corn!!  

Lap 1 I saw a mirage at T2

"don't worry those things aren't real"

it looks real!

"nah! mirages are figments of your imagination!!"

Well, it's coming at me from the corn field  :o

"don't worry its a mirage...it isn't real"

it's still coming at me??!!

"when you get there it will vanish, just like all mirages"

it really is getting very close and it looks very solid

"haha they always do, but don't worry"

but this Mirage is now right in front of me and spinning!!!

"Oh!!! you mean a "Mirage" not a mirage, don't hit that !! ITS REAL!!!"


it was!!   :-\............Shift -R and SnG


Ok steady drive to finish....... until at half distance I discovered alittle example of the GPL trackbuilders art that until now had escaped me!! a ruddy concrete marker on the outside of T3!!  So I parked on top of it ::)

very good and clean practise for me, i doubt Hristo didnt put all "horses" to the game or struggle with setups, and i ll was able to take poletime.

i was also notices strange delay with chap2f when taking starts from neutral to 1st gear.
Unforunately i was making one error on lap 2 and 3-4 cars was passing me, ---> shift-r + stop'n go and i was even more back.

Lap 5 or 6 i suffered screen freeze when driving on backstraight = game over .  :o

it was a enjoy driving Chapparal 2f.  ;D 

#

 >:( :( :o
even more bad : there are invisible walls round the track . stops you from return once your are behind them .

To me no question : this version of Reims is an NO GO for racing , till this major programming mistake will be removed .
Anyone knows how to contact Ginetto ? He should be able to fix that , I guess.


 ;)sorry Blue-team mates , for not beeing able to reach the shattered flag .

hope next track , we will be on , is proper  .

Track: Reims             Fri Feb 04 23:40:23 2011

PRACTICE TIMES

Pos No Driver                           Team     Nat      Time      Diff Laps
 1  21 Juha HalliGT                     Chap 2F  FIN 2m00.973s              8
 2  14 Hristo ItchovGT                  Chap 2F  JPN 2m02.107s   01.134s    5
 3   5 Fulvio Policardi-GT              Ferrari  ITA 2m05.008s   04.035s    5
 4  20 Göran JonssonGT                  Lola T70 SWE 2m05.306s   04.333s    7
 5  57 Sam Blood                        Chap 2D  GBR 2m05.945s   04.972s    4
 6  24 Nicky Ickx GT                    Ferrari  VEN 2m06.286s   05.313s    5
 7  11 Pedro Berg_vd                    Chap 2D  HOL 2m06.556s   05.583s    3
 8  18 franGT Molteni                   Ferrari  ITA 2m06.918s   05.945s    9
 9  12 StuartGT67 Bartosiak             Porsche  GBR 2m06.937s   05.964s    5
10  39 Paul Whitfield GT                Ferrari  GBR 2m07.123s   06.150s    8
11  38 natan vix gt                     GT40 MkI BEL 2m07.303s   06.330s    8
12  37 Alastair BaldwinGT               Mirage   GBR 2m07.472s   06.499s    7
13   1 Phil ThorntonGT                  Lola T70 GBR 2m07.719s   06.746s    8
14  25 Zachariah Blito                  Lola T70 GBR 2m08.699s   07.726s    5
15   7  EvilGT                          GT40 MkI GBR 2m09.847s   08.874s    6
16  15 Ronnie Peterson                  Porsche  ITA 2m13.428s   12.455s    8
17  16 Fabio GT Locarno                 Ferrari  ITA 2m16.598s   15.625s    5
18   2 Sport Cookie                     Mirage   GER   No time   No time    0
19  27 2 UKGPL_T7                       Porsche  ITA   No time   No time    0

All times are official
Generated with GPL Replay Analyser


Track: Reims             Fri Feb 04 23:40:23 2011

RACE RESULTS (After 30 laps)

Pos No Driver                          Team     Nat Laps   Race Time       Diff    Problem
 1  11 Pedro Berg_vd                   Chap 2D  HOL   30  63m40.453s           
 2  57 Sam Blood                       Chap 2D  GBR   30  63m53.398s    12.945s
 3  14 Hristo ItchovGT                 Chap 2F  JPN   30  63m56.409s    15.956s
 4  20 Göran JonssonGT                 Lola T70 SWE   30  64m09.711s    29.258s
 5   5 Fulvio Policardi-GT             Ferrari  ITA   30  65m08.963s  1m28.510s
 6  39 Paul Whitfield GT               Ferrari  GBR   29  65m06.323s   1 lap(s)
 7  15 Ronnie Peterson                 Porsche  ITA   28  63m53.940s   2 lap(s)
 8  38 natan vix gt                    GT40 MkI BEL   21  46m24.135s   9 lap(s)
 9   7  EvilGT                         GT40 MkI GBR   14  31m19.924s  16 lap(s)
10  25 Zachariah Blito                 Lola T70 GBR   14  32m07.344s  16 lap(s)
11  24 Nicky Ickx GT                   Ferrari  VEN   10  22m46.824s  20 lap(s)
12  18 franGT Molteni                  Ferrari  ITA    8  19m05.499s  22 lap(s)
13   1 Phil ThorntonGT                 Lola T70 GBR    7  16m05.480s  23 lap(s)
14  16 Fabio GT Locarno                Ferrari  ITA    6  14m33.538s  24 lap(s)
15  21 Juha HalliGT                    Chap 2F  FIN    4   8m49.415s  26 lap(s)
16  37 Alastair BaldwinGT              Mirage   GBR    2   5m20.091s  28 lap(s)
17  12 StuartGT67 Bartosiak            Porsche  GBR    0   0m00.000s  30 lap(s)
18   2 Sport Cookie                    Mirage   GER    0 DidNotStart  30 lap(s)
19  27 2 UKGPL_T7                      Porsche  ITA    0 DidNotStart  30 lap(s)


Race results are unofficial
(Replay might have been saved before end of race)

RACE FASTEST LAPS

Pos Driver                                 Time Lap
 1  Hristo ItchovGT                   2m03.329s  22
 2  Pedro Berg_vd                     2m04.017s  19
 3  Sam Blood                         2m04.190s  30
 4  Göran JonssonGT                   2m04.642s  27
 5  Juha HalliGT                      2m05.130s   2
 6  Nicky Ickx GT                     2m06.201s   5
 7  Fulvio Policardi-GT               2m06.455s   4
 8  Paul Whitfield GT                 2m08.545s  11
 9  Phil ThorntonGT                   2m08.866s   7
10  natan vix gt                      2m09.685s  20
11  Zachariah Blito                   2m10.059s   7
12  franGT Molteni                    2m10.136s   3
13   EvilGT                           2m10.310s  13
14  Fabio GT Locarno                  2m10.819s   4
15  Ronnie Peterson                   2m13.282s  10
16  Alastair BaldwinGT                2m26.972s   2
17  StuartGT67 Bartosiak                No time
18  Sport Cookie                        No time
19  2 UKGPL_T7                          No time


LEADERS

Driver                           Laps
Juha HalliGT                     1-3
Hristo ItchovGT                  4-7
Göran JonssonGT                  8-19
Pedro Berg_vd                    20-22
Hristo ItchovGT                  23
Pedro Berg_vd                    24-30

Number of lead changes: 5
Number of leaders: 4


LAPS LED

Driver                           Laps led
Göran JonssonGT                  12
Pedro Berg_vd                    10
Hristo ItchovGT                  5
Juha HalliGT                     3


HIGHEST CLIMBER

Driver                           Start Finish  Change
Ronnie Peterson                     16      7       9 
Pedro Berg_vd                        7      1       6 
 EvilGT                             15      9       6 
Zachariah Blito                     14     10       4 
Paul Whitfield GT                   10      6       4 
Sam Blood                            5      2       3 
natan vix gt                        11      8       3 
Fabio GT Locarno                    17     14       3 
2 UKGPL_T7                          19     19       0 
Sport Cookie                        18     18       0 
Phil ThorntonGT                     13     13       0 
Göran JonssonGT                      4      4       0 
Hristo ItchovGT                      2      3      -1 
Fulvio Policardi-GT                  3      5      -2 
Alastair BaldwinGT                  12     16      -4 
franGT Molteni                       8     12      -4 
Nicky Ickx GT                        6     11      -5 
StuartGT67 Bartosiak                 9     17      -8 
Juha HalliGT                         1     15     -14 


ON TRACK LAPS

Driver                           Laps/Total    Percent
Göran JonssonGT                     (28/30)      93.33
Ronnie Peterson                     (26/28)      92.86
Fulvio Policardi-GT                 (22/30)      73.33
Pedro Berg_vd                       (20/30)      66.67
natan vix gt                        (19/21)      90.48
Hristo ItchovGT                     (16/30)      53.33
Sam Blood                           (15/30)      50.00
Paul Whitfield GT                   (13/29)      44.83
 EvilGT                             (12/14)      85.71
Zachariah Blito                      (7/14)      50.00
franGT Molteni                        (6/8)      75.00
Nicky Ickx GT                        (5/10)      50.00
Phil ThorntonGT                       (4/7)      57.14
Fabio GT Locarno                      (2/6)      33.33
Juha HalliGT                          (2/4)      50.00
Alastair BaldwinGT                    (1/2)      50.00


RACE LAPTIME CONSISTENCY
(first lap excluded)

Driver                    Avg Deviation  Std Deviation  Avg Laptime   Laps
Alastair BaldwinGT                0.000          0.000    2m26.972s      2
Pedro Berg_vd                     1.504          2.154    2m06.883s     30
Göran JonssonGT                   2.220          3.599    2m08.105s     30
Fulvio Policardi-GT               2.239          3.777    2m09.073s     30
Sam Blood                         2.253          3.773    2m07.522s     30
 EvilGT                           2.266          4.281    2m12.193s     14
Ronnie Peterson                   2.356          4.254    2m16.252s     28
natan vix gt                      3.094          5.064    2m12.109s     21
Zachariah Blito                   3.506          6.230    2m14.619s     14
Hristo ItchovGT                   3.795          5.961    2m07.706s     30
Paul Whitfield GT                 4.206          5.754    2m14.541s     29
Juha HalliGT                      5.415          5.944    2m13.253s      4
Phil ThorntonGT                   5.932          6.480    2m15.485s      7
Fabio GT Locarno                 10.388         11.267    2m24.558s      6
franGT Molteni                   10.962         11.850    2m20.175s      8
Nicky Ickx GT                    13.915          2.217    2m16.818s     10


All times are unofficial
(Replay might have been saved before end of race)

Generated with GPL Replay Analyser

Thanks for getting the results up so quickly Goran. Went for a PB on the last lap - crashed into the corn and had to Shift-R. Apart from that had a couple of tussles with people that was fun in the early laps, coupled with a good start and a good qually, I found myself in 9th or tenth. Had a dodgy patch where Evil got past me after I span at the first hairpin and then knuckled down, caught him up and ... then span again. Grrr. Ronnie got very close in his Porsche. THIS WOULD NOT DO. So - I concentrated and pulled out some time on him. Last ten laps had to grit my teeth but kept Fulvio behind (I did have half a mile to play with).

6th due to attrition but pleased that I did not crash into the corn for 28 laps. Had only managed to string together three in practice. Slow average but steady and very pleased with sixth.

excellent result there Paul! You`re really starting to get the hang of this now.. hopefully we will have a few good battles on the coming races :)
 

Yesterday I wasn't at my best...
Qualify: I wasn't able to complete a good lap, so I started from last position.
Race: after my second shift+r I had to quit
Sorry Blues for such bad result and grats to Paul for his brilliant 6th place!
Unfortunately I will miss next one: see you all at my home track next 18th of February

Thanks for posting the results Goran.

Grats to Pedro, Samb and Hristo  and well done Paul!!!        Looks like Hristo was not as lonely as he was expecting to be  lol ::)

Still no sign of the "unreliability" of the Chapps?  

I was expecting to see more mechanical retirements from the supposedly more fragile cars in these races.  Maybe if this is the sort of race length that suits most people ( 50-60mins) I will have to revise the token values of some cars for future series.

personally, i find them too long, Clive. I tfind that one hour of racing without a pit-stop is a recipe for aches and cramps... not to mention stupid driving errors caused by falling asleep at the wheel!

I can't agree with your version of that incident Jason.  Yes we did make contact but my move was not overambitious IMO.  I followed you into T2 then as you went wide I managed to keep a tight line all the way round the corner and I was hugging the right hand kerb as I entered the straight.  There was a spinning Mirage that probably distracted you but I was almost a full car ahead when you moved over and hit my nearside rear wheel with your front wing  (it is like that on my replay, maybe different on yours).

I think the problem here is visibility with the GT cars is a lot less than in the F1 cars.  So we all may need to adapt our driving styles to compensate.  These are fun races but we should take the opportunity to learn from these sorts of incidents before we run a formal division.  Some informal moderating would be ideal but I know the moderating team are hard pressed for time.

with srmz having some problems atm  i've posted my altered default gt setups on the ukgpl temp board

http://clarkhillracing.freeforums.org/altered-gt-setups-t295.html

john

Thanks for those John. After Reims last night I'm hoping you have fitted the Porsche with a turbo charger.

My race was quite the yo-yo effect, but unfortunately it was the lower point in its travel which coincided with the end of the race.

Having done no practice at all before the race, I was surprised how difficult it was to set up the car for this track, even though I used my Mexico setup which worked fairly well there. The demand on the 3 speed gearbox were much greater here though and it wasn't just before the race when I finally managed to dial in decent ratios. The handlind didn't improve much though - the car was unpredictable under throttle, especially out of the last corner, and it was also very unstable under braking and on corner entry, particularly for both hairpins.

My start was bad because of a high 1st gear ratio, but once the torque picked up I could follow Juha from some distance and try to get into a rhythm. That didn't quite work out as I went too fast into the last corner at the end of the lap and rested upon the little wall there with a bang. The car took it well though and I resumed the chase, but Juha was now some 2 seconds in front. I wasn't worried at this point, because Qualifying revealed to me, much to my surprise, that these cars provide an enourmous tow trail behind them, just like the 66 mod. I don't think it's realistic at all, but anyway...

I managed to keep the gap to Juha stable for a lap, but then had a lapse in concentration on the straight before T2 and found out that the distance markers on the side of the road are actually quite solid - hit one of them as I went slightly over the grass and the car spun into some objects that followed, going into the air and landing upside down: Shift-R #1 and the beginning of the Yo-Yo effect.

The race is a bit blurry in my memory from this moment onward because I had to race with many people, but I'll mention things I recall. I was recovering somewhat OK and actually managed to take the lead after a couple of laps when Juha retired, but Goran was right behind me and benefitting from the slipstream. I was thinking this is perfect for the Orange team and that if I can pull Goran around, the others behind would drop back and lose any chance.

Sadly this was not to be as I ran wide in T2 and met the unforgiving hayb... "corn" field, and although Evil did his nature call there before the race, their sticky nature has remained unchanged. Shift-R #2 and another drop of the Yo-Yo.

I found myself in 6th or 7th, but quickly moved up to 4th and now I had Sam, Pedro and Goran somewhere in the distance. I was obviously already handicapped due to running full tanks after the shift-r, but the car was quite fast once the tires warmed up within 2 laps. I also managed to get used to its braking habits and to take the hairpins better, but it wasn't ideal. Oh and something I forgot to mention - my FPS was dropping every time I had more than 1 car in front of me, so that was very difficult to deal with.

Pedro and Sam were so involved in their own scrap that they kept slowing each other down and after getting a massive tow down the backstraight, I managed to pass both of them going into the last turn.  ;D This didn't last for long, because soon after, just when I was seeing Goran's car not so far ahead, I had another off at T2 while trying to keep a wide line with Pedro on the inside. Shift-R #3.

By this time I was running twice more fuel than most other cars, including the front runners, but still I managed to close up on them after a couple of laps, probably due to Goran becoming a part of their 3-way battle. With another extreme tow and a bit of aggressiveness, I managed to go from 4th to 1st in a single lap, just to lose it again soon after with an off and half a spin at the last corner. No serious damage done (these cars are made sturdy, I give them that!), but there were only a handful of laps left by this time and my only realistic target was Sam in 3rd place up ahead.

Even though I caught him up within a lap or two, passing him didn't lead to anything positive because he was instantly benefitting from my slipstream and re-passing wherever he could. One thing which slowed us down more was that for some reason, any time he passed me, he refused to return to the ideal line. That compromised his next corner entry and I was forced to slow down a lot more as well, so overall we were losing time to Pedro and Goran who by this time were out of sight.

This continued until the last lap where I messed up the last corner and couldn't have a final go at Sam's car before the finish, but it turned out Goran dropped to 4th so I got 3rd place. I'm definitely not happy with the result, but I suppose it could've been worse. The mod is too heavy for my machine though (even with reduced graphics) and with these awful mirrors it's near impossible to race safely with other people. Anyway, Rouen should be much better, so I'm looking forward to that!

Grats to Pedro for a well deserved win, you were really fast! Grats to Sam too (I hope you get better connection soon) and to Goran for bringing it home for another solid Oranges result!  ;D

-=Hristo=-

I hate to mention this Hristo but you did read the rules??

"Each driver is permitted a SINGLE  "SHIFT-R" per race regardless of fault, which must be followed by a Stop'nGo in the Pitlane within 2 laps, or the driver will be DQ'd."

Hopefully no one is looking. Better luck in the next race anyway.

To quote Mike from a different context Ronnie...

"Shut up you fool. There is a place at stake here!"

Hristo will hate us but it looks like 6th and 5th for you and me respectively! Well done.

Ah, well, I was suspecting something like that, but it's OK.  ;D

Without those shift-rs I would've retired, so it doesn't make a difference, besides it's just for fun. Oranges will get back to the top at Rouen. ;)

OK - I've arrived. I beat H and Evil. In a fair(ish) fight. Admittedly I may not be such a good driver (don't think the jury is out on that one!) but I drove that race within my capabilities and achieved a PB in qualifying. I've followed their advice and am striving for consistency and predictability and am consequently not such a liability to those racing me.

Thanks again to the Wazas for their help. Now I've just got to get five years experience under my belt and I'll be fighting them at the front :D

Nothing escapes the eyes and ears of.................. :scared:......................... The Moderator  muhahahahahahahahahah! :nono:

That race was excellent fun. I too was struggling with the Chap's 3 speed gearbox and made 2nd a bit too tall which compromised my drive out of the hairpins. The start went well though I narrowly missed Fulvio's stricken Ferrari and was soon batting Goran in the Lola. After a couple of laps, Nicky, not far behind me and Goran braked too late and went on the grass to avoid us. I missed him by what felt like an inch. Distracted somewhat, I went on the power far too soon and spun the car round losing places. After rejoining, I was actually driving quite a good race. I had a particularly excellent duel with Pedro which lasted nearly all race. With H and Nicky occasionally joining the battle.

Eventually me and Nicky had a coming together at the hairpin which was a similar repeat of what happened in the Spec race with Clive, only this time, Nicky flipped his car requiring a shift r. Big apologies for that. Soon after it was back to business with Pedro and lap after lap we battled and soon after we had Goran in our sights to join in on the fun. For a few more laps we had a 3 way duel for the lead but sadly with 6 laps to go, I ran wide and the sweeping left hander before the first hairpin and went off into the scenery, leaving Pedro and Goran to have their on battle. When I rejoined, I had H for company and we battled till the end of race. With me having the advantage of the tow on the last lap. That resulted in 2nd place after Goran's Lola cruelly blew and engine with one lap to go with Pedro claiming a fine win, and H solidly in 3rd.

As for my internet, after seeing the replay I can only grovel and apologise. You'd think Virgin Media, with a 20mb connection and using an ethernet cable, even though it may have been peak time, would be able to deliver me a stable connection for a game designed around a 56k modem! It also has the uncanny ability to display everyone around me perfectly, yet I'm warping about all over the place on other people's screens! If I can find a source of such a high ping and fix it, I think everyone here will breathe a sigh of relief!

Finally, as for not changing lines when overtaking H, to be honest I was fairly certain we would not catch Goran and Pedro with the laps we had left. I was really being a bit selfish and just trying to stay ahead  ::). I wasn't convinced I'd be able to stay in the tow and keep up through the bends as you were dynamite through the sweepers and I on occasion, would not get a decent run out of the corner, particularly with my tall 2nd gear.

I hate to say "we told you so"!!!!... but I will ;)  well done Paul   ;D

Results and points for the Mexico and Reims race are being prepared and should be posted tomorrow ( with luck!!).

Rouen,both for GT and spec,wich must be?I have the historical.Must be the standard original Papyrus?
As explained in a message to Phil,also in this race no point for me.This time was mainly my foult.One time an error during the breaking (shift R) and the second engaging the 3 gear,i went in neutral and the engine is exploded. >:(The GT engine are more fragile compared to the other mod .
I'm sorry to give nothing to my team :-[,in terms of point,i hope to arrive in the next race ,also last but to arrive.

Rouen will be the original Papyrus track.

Fran, i think most of us failed to finish at Reims, and i believe Clives rules are no finish, no points... so thats two straight races in this series where I have retired through multiple shift-R ....

Phil, i`ve watched the replay and I must apologise, i was so pre-occupied with  the spinning Mirage that i was utterly unaware of your move....

Guys I think I have broken the Shift-R rule too. I had confused with the rule of another league where you can reset twice in a lap followed by a S&G :(
I blew the engine as soon as I put in first at the start, sorry to who was damaged by that. Had to wait for all the pack passing me to reset. Soon after at T1 or T2, don't remember, I was out in the corn and had to reset again :(.
After some early passes the rest of the race was a battle to not fall asleep with nobody around, until 5 laps to go when I went wide at the last hairpin, luckily without much damage.
Ciao

NP.  Knowing where the other cars are at all times without being able to see them is the hardest part about racing on-line IMO.  The mirrors (or lack of them) on these GT cars make it even harder.  If we do plan to run a GT Series next season it might be better to allow limited shift-Rs rather than run it under PRO rules.

I like to Thank Juha for inviting me for this race.

I was just driving a "Pickup" race at Reims in a Ferrari when Juha invited me.
In the UKGPL-Chatroom Evel told me I could paticipate driving the Chap2D.
I Never had a go with it at Reims, but what the heck, it's for fun.

And It was Fun!
Working together with Sam to get back to Göran,
The little mistakes we made,
The fair and safe driving,
The coming and going of Hristo ;)
Great fun!

Therefor I would like to thank UKGPL leage and driver's for such a pleasent drive!
Man, those GT's are great, the sound, the tow, the handeling.

Congratulations Sam and ? Hristo or Göran.
And sorry for snooping of leage points?

Greetings Pedro.

Phil said   "If we do plan to run a GT Series next season it might be better to allow limited shift-Rs rather than run it under PRO rules."

When the GT's were released, and I dreamt up this format, I soon realised that those mirrors were going to be a real problem especially in the Chapps!
I was tempted to allow unlimited Shift-R's, as this was going to be a "fun" series, but the information about the various cars that was issued when the mod was released made great reference to the reliability factor of all the cars.

 It was that info on which I based the "token value" of the cars and hoped that over a few races we would see things levelling out.

As I understood things:-                                                                            Observations so far in this series.

 The Chapperals  ( 2D and 2F) are supposed to be fast but not too reliable..........certainly the fastest cars on most circuits so far but not noticeably unreliable yet?
 The Lola nice drive but very fragile engine....................................................seems quick and reliable in the right hands ( Goran) but there have been a few "failures".
 The Ferrari quick and very reliable...............................................................there have been a few engine failures but generally most retirements have been driver error I think
 The GT 40's  
             MK1   a bit slow but generally reliable...............................................my experience with it so far would agree with that.
             MK2  and Mirage   faster but unreliable................................................ not enough info to draw any conclusions really, although Al seems to have tamed it.
             Mk4   very fast but unreliable and a tank to drive................................ definitely a "tank" and very fast in a straight line, but unreliable?? not sure yet.
             Porsche  the slowest car but nice to drive and ultra reliable....................seems to be accurate description.

If the relaibilty factor was/is accurate then allowing someone in a Chapp 2F unlimited Shift-R's was going to skew things very much in favour of those big fast cars, and the Lola would certainly benefit.

Even allowing the Chapps a single Shift-R enables them to easily recover the ground even with a SnG. So far it appears that if driven with an eye on the rev counter and careful gear changing, these cars are lasting through a 50-60 minute race. Maybe we need longer races to really test these cars, although the general consensus seems to be that the current race length is about right?

For the Porsche and the Mk1 Ford to be in with a chance, on any circuit with a decent straight, they have to gain places as the heavy brigade explode and retire.

It would be good for all those involved to post their views on the cars that they are driving in this series here,  then maybe I/we can adjust the token value for a longer "official" series later in the year.

I think we should definitely run under Pro Rules if we make an official GT division, otherwise it would turn into a hotlap fest with intermediate damage and shift-rs. Pro damage/rules would enforce more careful driving and less risk taking which I think is closer to how the cars were driven in reality. The drop in FPS for older PCs and the bad mirrors in particular are quite a downside though...

Martin has sent me a PDF explaining how it may be possible to make virtual mirrors for the GT cars but I haven't had time to look at it yet. I hope there is going to be an official solution/tweak about it soon and perhaps a lower-polygon/mipmap update for the mod. As it is, personally I get a drop of 4 fps just by having more than 1 car in front of me, even if the cars are a couple hundred meters into the distance. It makes me think the car meshes keep their high polygon count despite how far they're from your viewpoint. And yes, I do run reduced graphics already and it's the only mod that causes such fps drop.

And of course, I hope they fix that insane unrealistic long slipstream and the ridiculous heat-up of the tires under trail-braking leading to complete lock up of the wheel.

Thanks for the summary of the performance of the cars so far. As one of the Porsche drivers I can confirm they are indeed the slowest but easiest to drive. But then any car can be easy to drive slow and they are a lot harder to drive fast. But it can be done, particularly in the hands of Stuart I suspect. Slow in a straight line yes, but very stable under breaking which can typically be left later than most and nimble so alternative lines can be considered.

As for ultra reliable the jury is still out. Despite an unexpected podium finish at Silverstone, the underpowered Porsche felt even more gutless than usual after 20 laps. The GPLRA mech report confirmed that I had suffered an engine problem with just under half the race still to go. This despite what I considered careful driving at the time.

My prediction is that after Reims the Porsche will be back in the mix at Rouen but heaven help it at Monza!

Got frozen pc  >:(

Hope this works  ;)

Results so far for the GT Fun Series.

If you spot anything disastrously wrong please phone our complaints dept.  :laugh:

 (http://img147.imagevenue.com/loc587/th_19974_GTresults_122_587lo.jpg) (http://img147.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=19974_GTresults_122_587lo.jpg)

It's not a big issue for the front runners, provided you get a clean start there usually isn't a problem.  But it is a different story for the guys in the middle of the pack and to the rear (where I normally start from), it is quite common to be taken out for no fault of your own.   

Yes I agree in principle which is why we started running more PRO races.  However how many times does the innocent party get taken out and the risk taker gets away with it?  Quite often IMO.  I suggest there is no conclusive evidence that PRO rules means less lap one incidents even if it does encourage less risk taking. 

I'm not suggesting anybody is driving recklessly, it's just very hard to know where everyone else is in the early part of the race and these GT cars make that even more difficult.  It's no secret that I'm not the fastest driver in UKGPL (LOL) however I am reasonably safe to drive with because I am pretty good at knowing where other cars are, but I do get it wrong sometimes.

Taking it easy isn't the answer either, I've tried that and end up getting rear ended.  The only safe way to start the race IMO is to go as fast as you can (the guys ahead will be faster and will pull away regardless) and stick to your own side of the track until you are sure it is safe to move across.

If we have to run PRO rules to ensure drivers look after their engines then perhaps we need to have a rule (for the GT division only) forcing drivers to stay on their own side of the track for the first few corners or even no overtaking on the first lap?

for those having problems with the mirrors why don't you just clean them of objects and dirt ?

i have cleaned mine but have kept the objects (engine/engine cover, inside of car).

john

Yes works fine  ;)

Looks like the Orange team will take some beating.

For those of us who are technically challenged  ::)  exactly how would we go about that???? ???

hi! JR  how about releasing mirrors here ?,   i know theres lot of people who may use

Phil, isn't this what we have penalties for? If someone takes someone else out (or just hits them), the penalties would prevent it happening again or at least reducing the chance. Over time those who are too aggressive would mellow down (or get banned LOL) and those who make mistakes from pushing too hard would ease off and stay within limit. I tend to agree with the sticking to your lines after the start, I find it very risky when people move to the side with the whole pack so closely bunched up and also drivers going 3 wide for a pass on the inside/outside.

JR, of course, if the dirt and shades can be removed, that would probably be enough. Instructions please?

I'm doing brilliantly here - I got eight points in Mexico and I wasn't even there lol

Not looking forward to Rouen - 2:10 and that's dodgy!

Very much agree, Phil.


This is effectively back to the 'rolling start' scenario.  Definitely worth considering, and perhaps GTs may be a good place to trial it.

ADC do run the 'no overtaking before T1' rule which does work.  Although, looking at the other side, I do see why it isn't liked by some. Getting a good start is all part of the race.  It's a tricky area, but would like to see the option of a rolling start (or T1 rule) at least considered in one series.

You can always avoid being rear ended by running last  ;)

In all seriousness, I probably have much more experience of being passed in these things than either of you. If you use Prib so that you know who is where and don't try and contest the pass but plan for picking up the tow it is fairly easy to stay out of trouble. I was being passed regularly by much faster drivers who I could then get back past because of the tow. The fact that I didn't do so because I was racing conservatively is neither here nor there. The opportunity existed.

In fact Phil, I think I managed to pass you once (oh the shame!) at the last turn and you are MUCH faster than me so it is possible to race cleanly. I think that the penalties will have to be looked at (IMHO) and possibly made more severe to 'force' clean driving practices because these cars behave differently and some people seem to drive them as if they are just enclosed 67's. Of course, penalties don't help much if you've just been punted off.

No overtaking at T1 is an example of a more stringent rule but even there retrospective penalties are no good if people do not modify their driving style to accomodate the GTs.

I've always seen penalties as measures to help people realize what they have to adjust in their driving style and approach to races. If we allow shift-r just so you can get away with incidents (victim or not), it kind of kills that purpose. Not to mention it's not realistic either and it would prevent the otherwise schuffling effect on the end result.

And then there is reliability which is obviously better with Int damage, not just from hitting trackside objects/other cars, but for the engine as well. I thought it was desired that we have to drive in a manner which preserves the car with this mod rather than hotlap like mad? It would make it feel closer to the real thing, wouldn't it?

If there's going to be Int damage and shift-r, the latter should be very very limited, perhaps only once for a lap 1 incidents and only if you believe you were the victim, and then require a stop/go in the pits. Anyway, your call. I'm not particularly fond of running an official GT division with the current FPS drop I'm experiencing.

Yep, you make good points H.  Running pro is ideally what we should be doing, it is the realism that I like; its just damn frustrating getting taken out on L1 after practising for a number of hours particularly when its not your own fault, which as Phil suggests, is a greater risk by being mid pack.  Suppose that's racing though, and to avoid the mid pack shuffle then we need to get faster! Ha, that 's not looking likely any time soon! hehe.

Paul, not disputing clean racing is possible and the majority here practice that, sadly there are some kamikaze pilots who don't and want to win a race on lap 1, whether that's out of adrenaline fuelled bad judgement or ignorance, I'll leave that for others to decide, but the result is the same.  Also, I think you'll find getting back past the fast boys with tow isn't quite so easy as a less experienced driver as they know how to cover the lines better and normally conduct a passing manoeuvre that provides them with the better exit from the turn otherwise most wont try the move until they are sure it will stick, not worth the risk; that's the race craft skill they posses as opposed to (for want of a better phrase) lesser drivers making a dive to get the pass and sacrificing the exit speed just to hope they make the move stick out of chance, often resulting in a prang at the next bend when both try to outbrake each other.

Anyway, as always there are a great number of advantages and disadvantages of both types of settings, pro or int, thank fully it's not me who has to make the call.  That's why we pay the chief so much  :laugh:

Getting past is easy - just rear end them, cheerily wave, shift-r and say 'soz' in chat ;)

actually the pass I was thinking about was the long straight at Reims. Couldn't beat a milk float round the corners!

For all them that asked for better view:
http://www.sendspace.com/file/tq9oj7 (http://www.sendspace.com/file/tq9oj7)
Virtual mirrors for the GT mod.
Well at least for most of the cars.
I had problems cleaning the old mirror in porsche, so i just took the rim apart and made it as large as possible.
In Ford MK4 and Lola same problems but couldn't even get rid of the mirror rims.
Now they got both a virtual mirror hovering at the side of the old one.
(the virtual ones shows a bit wider view of the track)

 

Before I apply any of these mirror changes are we all agreed this is not cheating?

I will decide on that if you finish in front of me  :thumbdown:

The rules have this;
It's not giving a performance advantage as such and anything that might cut down on crashes has got to be a plus. So no it's not against the rules, I would see it as no different to choosing to run Prib or not.

I hear what your saying BUT one of the reason I picked/like the Porsche is the fact that its the only GT car with a mirror with a view. This is a real advantage over the other cars in racing. The modify the mirrors of the othe cars negates this advantage?

As a thought for the next round of the GT season, i think the modified mirrors would be a good thing.
Also i wonder, might it be possible to "tinker" with the physics a little to ballast some of the cars to provide a more level playing field. Nothing too drastic, but enough to mean that a well driven Porsche or ford MK1 could stand a chance of winning occasionally?
I think with better mirrors, better FPS and a more balanced car set we could be on to something good.

Ballasting the cars would seem to be an obvious handicapping route.    ;)

Unfortunately ,even if we had that facility ( which we don't!!), I dont think there is enough room on the Chapps to pile 2 tonnes of lead weights!!! With that massive torque you would need the QE2 pulling in the other direction to make any difference  :-\


This is effectively back to the 'rolling start' scenario.  Definitely worth considering, and perhaps GTs may be a good place to trial it.


It might be a good idea, and if the majority want to trial it where better than this fun series. My only concern is how it actually improves things.

 Do we impose a maximum speed for the 1st rolling lap?
 I presume "no passing" until we cross the S/F line at the end of lap1?
 But surely then we still have a bunch of cars all quite close and still barreling into T1? so what have we gained?  or am I not seeing this right? 

Make me the pace car into T1 - I could make sure there were no crashes ;)

Fair point but it's not actually giving a performance advantage - in fact I believe there's an add on that gives a great big overhead mirror for all cars but have never tried it. Surely all it's doing is giving someone a better view of what is going on around them which has to be a good thing if it makes the racing safer.
Sorry if you picked a car on the basis of a better view, which is now going out of the window (so to speak), but it must be a good thing if you are less likely to be hit by someone who cannot see you.

It's not a performance advantage, but simply helps you be more aware of who's behind you and where they are at any given moment on the track. The problem is people who are in front of you in any of the other cars are severely handicapped by NOT having such good awareness and that creates a lot of risky situations. In your case, if you're going for a pass, you would always be the one hoping the driver ahead (if it's not a Porsche driver) would have seen you and given you enough room, but you will never be sure of that.

In that last Reims race I've had a couple of ocassions where I had completely no idea where exactly Sam was behind me as we were braking for the final corner and the low rev grunt sound of the cars doesn't help to distinguish car positions either. Virtual mirrors would actually improve both racing and safety.

I still hope they release an alternative "Clean" mirrors/windshield patch for whoever wants to get rid of the dirt and oil on the front window and the rear view mirror. One thing I mentioned some time before was that I don't understand why an in-car rear view mirror would be that dirty - now I realize it probably is made with the idea of a dirty rear window which you see through from the mirror. But if that's the case, why is the Porsche as clean as new?  ::)

Anyway, as Tim says, it's exactly the same as using Pribluda to improve your awareness of certain things.

@Blito - isn't it the setup what you balance the car with?

On the topic of having a rolling start: I don't think it's going to work out. There is no way the drivers behind would know when the imaginery green flag has been given so they can start accelerating fully. There's no signal system whatsoever to give them such a sign and they would only have to rely on those ahead of them pulling away. The latter may lead to incidents as well, if someone pulls away a bit earlier just to close up on cars in front and the drivers behind assume the race has begun. I'd rather stick to what GPL provides.

Thanks for the responses Tim and Hristo, information received and understood. Damn and I hoping you guys would agree to slow down a bit!

Well, UKGTR use rolling starts for their races and the procedure is detailed HERE (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=3349.msg54455#msg54455).

Of course GPL has no pit limiter.

I have no idea if it would be any better or not, but just thought it may be worth a shot.  Probably be a bit complicated to make sure everyone knows what to do, so probably not worth the bother.

Yes that's exactly right and how I see it too.  However it only really works if all the incidents are moderated and even then it doesn't mean we will eradicate all lap 1 incidents.  Relying on reported incidents only, means there is a tendency to resolve things in chat informally but that doesn't mean lessons have been learnt or drivers have come to an agreement.  They may agree to disagree.  Ideally a formal mod report will have a full description of the incident (not as simple as it sounds as drivers may have differing opinions as to what happened) followed by an analysis of who did what wrong (if anything).  But all this takes time, ask Mike who is modding the Novs this season or Clive "Numpty" Loynes or Kruger Enge who both used to do a brilliant job of modding the Clubmans (seasons 13, 14 and 15 particularly).  Personally I always report any incidents I'm involved in even if I think it is my fault.  Trawling through the replays trying to identify incidents is what took a lot of time in the pre SRou days.  Now we have the court system it is relatively easy for the drivers to do that, thus saving the moderator a lot of time.  What we shouldn't do IMO is to see the court system as a last resort.  We shouldn't be scared of the moderating process and we should be comfortable with reporting any incidents we see not just the ones we are involved in.  After all everyone can learn from moderated incidents not just the drivers involved.
Yes, good points but as Steve Bird has concurred, it is very irritating to have out in some serious practice for a race only to be punted off on lap 1 through no fault of your own.  I know JR is a fan of PRO rules but this happened a lot to him in S13 of the Masters, I'd be amazed if he wasn't irritated by that.  If you look back at who was in that series you will see there was some seriously quick and experienced drivers competing.  Good evidence that lap 1 incidents are not confined to the novice divisions.

The point I am making here is no matter how strict the moderating or how skilled the drivers, lap 1 incidents are always likely.  It would be nice if we could do something to minimise the risk without making the races unrealistic.

It would only work with 100% safety and consistency if everyone, from front to back, accelerates fully only once they reach the s/f line. That would spread the field quite a lot though and may kill the racing element. Worth a try as you say though, while we're still not doing any official runs, even if I can't see it working properly and having any actual benefit vs. a standing start.

P.S. Perhaps a single file formation?  ;D

If you are talking about lap 4, yes I remember that one.  You got a good draft on me and I saw you coming up the inside but when you disappeared from my mirrors I couldn't be sure where you were so I stayed wide and gave you plenty of room.  Good job too because you over did it a bit and ended up in the sand and I nipped back through on the inside ;D.

Phil, all that you say is simply part of racing. You will never get rid of lap 1 incidents or incidents in general, nor you will never have a guarantee that someone is not going to punt you off the road (or out the race). Next time the roles may switch around, because making mistakes is also part of the game, even if you're not overly aggressive.

All in all, I'm against bending the reality of racing just so we can have a more sanitized version of it. Just look at modern F1 to see what it ends up being.

I've been taken out and punted off many times, but unless you're extremely unlucky, it doesn't happen so often per driver. The roles seem to rotate around over a season in a steady manner, so everyone gets their share of good and bad luck. It is only people who keep causing accidents over and over again who don't fit into that model.

What Pro rules create is that uncertainty and the feeling of unknown which makes races more exciting and chasing the result more worthwhile. The rewards of getting to the end in Pro rules race and scoring well are of greater magnitude, both mentally and emotionally. It leads to more personal growth (IMO) than any Int race. The latter seem to flourish the repetitiveness of bad habits. Of course, no offence to all newbies who are still on the steepest part of the learning curve and actually benefit from having it slightly easier.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again - I think rolling starts are a bit cissy.  Our grids are already much more spread out, than were originally intended.

I find the GT's in particular, to be both sound and vision challenged.  A single reset will probably help to smooth inter-driver relations, and encourage a larger selection of drivers to participate.  :angel:

I didn't say I made it stick... There is a reason you are much faster ;)

I was actually thinking of lap 3 when you outbraked me (and yourself) at the same last turn and I passed on the inside after giving way.

My point was that the draft on the GTs is insane but as long as you are careful (as you were and I wasn't on lap 4 and as I was on lap 3 (lol)) you can race nicely like my Mum would like :) I have to take my victories where I can - I got a pass and the fact you chewed me up and spat me out a lap later just shows that good will out ;)

I was just teasing. It is fun for me when I get a pass on a better driver (actually any pass I make is generally on a better driver but I'm working to change that ;) )

i dont see much benefit from a rolling start. it complicates things unneccessarriillyy (just how do you spell that word?) and you are gurantedd to have at least one guy "forget" and mess everything up... happens in ukgtr all the time :D...... wasnt me , honest!

This idea for splitting tokens and rewarding those who finish. I like it myself. But over the course of a season we would surely end up with the fastest guys in the fastest cars and the slowest guys in the slowest cars, which may not encourage new drivers to race in the first place?

On the subjest of rolling starts thats a no no. Reasons are just too many to list but one main concern would be being behind someone simply not keeping up during the rolling start and not being able to do a thing about it.

The purpose of this mini series was to see if the token system worked ( and HOW it worked in practice). Already I can see where I think certain values need to be adjusted to improve things. Yes, I agree , that probably the fastest guy in the fastest car will always win the race.
But, by making it a team event there are more points to be gained by getting your other 2 members to the finish even in midfield positions. I know that means surviving the race and driving for the team and not personal glory, but I was hoping that we might be able to introduce this extra element into the GT races and generate a little more inter team rivalry.
So far in the season it seems that the Orange team has ( despite their protestations that they were unfairly handicapped by having two high value drivers in their line up!!) a commanding lead and Nicky's cunning ploy of having 3 Ferraris and 3 lower value drivers has not quite worked how he thought. The car values were based upon the supposed reliabilty factor of the cars and this has not quite worked as I was expecting with Lolas and Chapps surviving races where frankly I expected them to suffer.
When this short season is over we will have some better data to re assess the values of the cars and their merits.

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On the subjest of rolling starts thats a no no. Reasons are just too many to list but one main concern would be being behind someone simply not keeping up during the rolling start and not being able to do a thing about it.
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I am still happy to give this a try, just to say that we have given it a go, maybe at Monza? which at least would give us a long straight to get things under way?? But it seems that a few others have the same reservations that I have over how it will work.

I'm with you totally Evil. My comment on the tokens was really aimed at an individual championship. And if Pod could actual;ly make a rce maybe the red team would be closer to the orange team. This is a great trial series and yes an ideal place to give the rolling start a go.

We, Oranges, just spend actual time (close to 2 hours!) in chat to discuss and evaluate different scenarios for car selection that would produce the best results, depending on the type of tracks we're faced with and the opposition choice of cars (thanks for telling  ;D ), so don't be surprised by the end result. As for reliability, it's not like we're speedshifting or overreving, so that is definitely a factor. You can't just expect a car to last if you're being naughty with it.  ;)

The series is working quite well Clive. Thanks for all your effort in organising. As for rolling starts, maybe only to be used where T1 is awkward? For instance if we used Kyalami. I'd like to try it once.

The team series is working well and although the Oranges are not the only fruit... drivers haven't adapted to the necessity to finish. If we had managed to get our three drivers home each race we would have a healthy second place with a fast track to come. There is no doubt that Nicky didn't pick the best drivers but we can contribute healthy points just by keeping it honest. So I think the strategies are working out well but I think that you need to have a balanced team because the cars are SO different in their performance. Track choice also then becomes critical. The Ford GT40 Mk IV would surely rule at Le Mans but how about Jarama? I'd want the Porsche there.

You could also get creative about points for PB's to keep people interested if the car is not competetive. As an example, Ronnie was way off at Reims but needed to finish - so conservative driving but what if there was a ten point bonus for a PB. Do you hold back in qually and go for the bonus or do you Banzai on track and risk a crash etc etc.

Lots of ways we could tweak it but the basic format is sound, I think. I am certainly enjoying it - its certainly the closest racing I get!

Thanks Clive for getting this off teh ground. I like the teams, it gives a driver like me, who has no chance of winning, or even being near the front, a chance to drive for something else apart from improve my times, lines etc. With the team scores it makes me want to finish teh race and give something to the team, if there wasn't points for the team I would of left in Mexico as I was having a big off day.

I aggree that the cars just don't seem to break, I've heard a few people saying they have had a problem but it doesn't seem to happen in the race at all.

On the point of rolling starts, I'm OK with either way as where I am doesn't seem to make much difference for me. I'd perfer the system we have now, but I'll go with what ever everyone else thinks. I like the idea of having 1 Shift & R in the bag in case I make a mistake, but if we went Pro rules I would still race.

Thanks again Clive and I'm looking forward to the next race already.

In real life those cars had rolling starts, so why wouldn't we have them too? It's really not so difficult ;)

In real life they also raced much longer than we do, so there is no need to push right from the start and drive on the edge. We'll never have anything close to endurance races, so why bother complicating things? As Blito says, it takes just one driver to mess things up and affect the race for many others before it has even started.

I think, as H pointed out, that the surviving of the Lolas and Chapps id due to how we treat them.
At the first race at Silvestone it took me a little more than one lap to blow my Lola engine. After that I took it very easy with it for the rest of the race and managed to bring it home but my lap times were like 2-3 sec off my pace. In Mexico I managed to keep it going all race by the same strategy from the start and at Reims I allmost made it but had trouble because of shifter problems that made me overrev from time to time when I found myself out of gear.

How H manage to keep the Chapp in one piece is a mystery to me because before this series I raced the Chapp in some fun races and never made it last very long. So I really think that the way you treat the car is crucially. That said Fulvio managed to blow the Ferrari engine on the Reims starting line, and the Ferrari supposed to be very reliable so I guess luck has some input as well in this, if not his revving on the line was the cause of it.

In the matter of rolling start I am quite OK with it allthough I do not prefere it and do not expect it to reduce the T1 incidents that much. I have had some experience from the AusGPL but then it was on the Daytona oval. We lined up in one row, the leader, me, drove a steady pace and we were not allowed to get on the gas until we passed the S/F line. It worked out well and one good thing about it is that you will not likely get any blow ups and sidesways cars on the grid.

Pro or Ini? well in principal I prefer pro, but the one shift-r has served me well in this series so, well, hummm. One thing though is that I hear people think that to practice for a race and then being out early make the practice a wast of time. How can practice be a waste of time? You must have gained some experience and you also might have a PB for the GPLRank.

Overall I like the team stuff, must of cause be because of the results so far, but the strategy involved is nice I think.

Göran

Why not? We could have an endurance division, maybe not with 24h races, but something between 1,5h-3h races is possible. Something like this: https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=8838.msg157863#msg157863 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=8838.msg157863#msg157863)



It doesn't matter if we have rolling or GP start, it is allways possible that someone will made a mistake and start a carnage;)



Could this be because we don't race on pro and on int. cars are harder to destroy?


Hmm, In my hands Chaparral is a lot more reliable than Lola.

Personally I'm doing 4 divisions and another GPL league, each 2 weeks. The current 1.5 hours (including the practice session) of GT racing is already a bit too much, so a long race is a definite 'no' to me. I'm pretty sure others are even more limited on energy and time. If such long races go ahead anyway, have fun!



It's entirely different - what you say happens in the race, AFTER the start of the race and at full acceleration, in competition mode. I was talking about drivers messing up on the warm up lap and just before the green flag.



Yeah, I think the same. I've never had my Chaparral 2F blow up the engine in either practice or race.

The limited info I had picked up, and thought that I understood,  before the start of this series, was that the reliability factor was programmed in as a random element and even if one was careful with these cars there would still be failures.

It seems that I may have overlooked something regarding the reliability factor by allowing a single Shift-R, and therefore making all races Intermediate which perhaps tolerates more abuse of the cars?

If we went Pro would we see more breakdowns??  I guess there is only one way to find out?

As a few have noted, the single Shift-R does allow a second chance if you are the innocent party in an incident, maybe a way of increasing the penalty for taking the Shift R would be a longer pit stop ( 10 secs stationary??) or require 2 SnG's within 5 laps.? or the option to perform either?  As long as we only allow a single Shift-R it would be relatively easy to monitor.

One question that arose in my mind after the Reims event, and I'm open to thoughts on this one. I am not trying to accuse anyone of cheating or wrongdoing as this is a fun series and I want to iron out any probs( or potential probs) before we attempt a "proper series"

If someone takes a Shift-R but does not perform the SnG, or takes a second Shift-R to which they are not entitled and continues racing do they affect the result? 

For example ....Driver "A" in a fast car running in a top 5 spot approx half way through the race crashes and performs a Shift-R to which he is entitled and drops to 10th place, but fails to take a SnG within 2 laps.  He is able to fight his way back up through the field because he is a fast driver and has a faster car. In doing so he drags smart opportunist driver "B" along in his slipstream for 10 laps and promotes driver B to 5th place which will be improved to 4th when driver A is DQ'd.

We cannot automatically disco a driver who stays in the race even if we wanted to, so what are your thoughts gents, or does it really matter???

Well we're already running one Sh/R in the Privateers. I think it's working well, a few momentary lapses of drivers taking two but they have all taken a DQ with grace. It is very easy to check via GPLRA although sitting there timing people for 10 seconds wouldn't be the way I'd want to go.

Re gaining an advantage - I guess it's just one of those things. TBH, being so easy to check and our drivers being gents, forgetting to pit or taking two is unusual and is normally a result of red mist + forgetfulness. I try to avoid being draconian with the DQ but a second reset or not even attempting to pit gets madame guillotine.
As I say I think you have to live with driver "B" gaining something on the basis it is almost as rare as spotting a dodo.

Of course they do/did. But I don't think anyone did it deliberately to cheat at the last race. Hopefully everyone is aware of it now and it won't happen again.

I'd agree with Ronnie on that one.  And here's a reminder, I suffered an engine blowup, in the Chappy F at Silverstone - might have been abuse.  But then a fuel failure before mid-race. :'(

LOL I was waiting for you to mention that  :oops:

Yes I think you would.  I'm pretty sure if you examine a PRO race with GPLRA you will see a lot more subtle failures in the mechanical report.

Excuse my ignorance but does PRO imply a certain minimum length. I ask because I think an hour is long enough.

No, the length can be set independently.

Tx

The server admin can Eject a DQ driver with a chat command or simply send a whisper to the fault driver to remember him to retire, but that implies a Race Director that doesn't race.
I was one of those driver that didn't retire after the second reset cause a doubt about the rule and that I wasn't keen to retire after less than a km. from start. I hope I didn't affect other's result.  :angel:
Ciao

As far as I know most people race with chat turned off, so that won't work. Besides, who's going to stay and watch the whole race, taking up a slot on the grid which could otherwise be used by a driver?

IMO it doesn't happen often, especially in an official race. I didn't even read the rules on shift-r because these series are just for test and fun, but I'll sure do if it was official.

The general impression I'm getting from the discussion is that most people are happy with PRO damage for the mainstream (i.e not novice) divisions.  Although I've got some reservations about PRO damage in the GTs because of the visibility perhaps it would be a good idea to try it for a race to see if the reliability really does become a more significant factor.  The last round in this mini series is at Monza on the 18th.  How about running the same round again the following week (25th Feb) but this time with PRO rules?  That way we'd get a fairly good comparison between Int and PRO damage.  Will the Chaparrals last the distance on PRO?

It depends on whether we can persuade Evil to extend this excellent series by one more week. :thumbup2:

Two races at Monza, how could I resist ;)
Just tried Norbert's improved mirrors and they are great :thumbup2:

That sounds like a good idea Phil.

If everyone else is ok with it, I will add a second race at Monza  ( original papyrus track) with Pro rules and the same 35 laps.

As you say, we should get a direct comparison between PRO and INT, or at least as direct as we are ever going to be with human drivers lol!

Looking forward to it :)

I pity those Porsche drivers... two Monzas!

Do you think they will have finished the first race by the time we finish the second?  :laugh:

Haha, I wouldn't bet on it!

Very funny guys but so right.

At least you will be able to bring the Porker home Ronnie - with PRO rules in the second race I reckon that getting to the finish will be an achievement!

Better practice on Pro damage from now on, just to learn how fragile the cars actually are.

I've been doing some simple tests in training mode where you can select the different types of damage models. My understanding is the Realistic equates to PRO rules and the Advanced equates to Intermediate rules.

Anyway by changing down early it is quite easy to over rev the engine.  By doing this deliberately with different damage models I found that in realistic (i.e. PRO) it is easier to get the car smoking (as if it has dropped a valve or holed a piston).  In the other modes it seemed a bit more robust but when the engine went it exploded rather than started to misfire.

Well that's what I found but it wasn't a particularly scientific test, I may have been fooling myself.  It would be interesting to see what other people find if they try the same test.

Yeah, it's true, Phil, you definitely get a lot more of those intermediate failures when running on Pro damage, which don't necessarily put you into retirement, at least not immediately, but basically ruin your race. And yeah, you're right about Realistic/Pro and Advanced/Int.