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UKGPL => UKGPL Races => Topic started by: FullMetalGasket on March 03, 2011, 05:12:24 PM +0000



Title: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: FullMetalGasket on March 03, 2011, 05:12:24 PM +0000
Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen, hope you enjoyed the show
Good bye Ladies and Gentlemen, it's time to go
Good evening Ladies and Gentlemen, that's all the tracks songs we know
Good bye Ladies and Gentlemen, SO LET GO! LET'S GO!


From the tight, twisty confines of Sodeguara we now continue on to Italy, and the speedfest that is Monza for the final race of season 20's Amatures championship.
Odd's on favorite is anyone who's car isn't powered by elastic bands and sticky back plastic, so a victory from either a BT7 or a Cooper is unlikely!
Hope you've all enjoyed this season, as it was my first i've been learning and using best judgement - Now I'm hoping to make season 21 even better by taking onboard all your feedback.  :)


Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL_T7_2
IP address = 62.149.202.168
Race date = 09-03-2011
Time = 21:00 UK time
Track = Monza (Papy original)

Variant = 65F1
Damage Model = PRO
Qualifying time = 35 minutes. Don't start until 30 mins left on clock to allow everyone to join.
Race length = 50 minutes (laps 30)
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

65 Patch: The 2.02 Release of the 65mod can be used.

Driver lists can be found on the championship standings page (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R;group=276;theme=6)
The track can be downloaded from : Papy original
Add-on’s available at : here (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=2803)

Please be in IGOR UKGPL chatroom by 8:50 pm UK Time

Reserve drivers should not join the server(s) until there are only 30 minutes of qualifying left. Please restrict chat to pit messages. Moderating will be by reported incidents only, however the moderators reserve the right to review any incident with a particular emphasis on lap one. The aim is to review the race the following weekend so incident reports should be submitted within five days of the race (ie the following Friday). We're hopeful most incidents can be resolved amicably and recommend a days deep breath with a replay review before posting. A sorry in the forum won't be taken as an automatic admission of guilt by the moderators.
The race will be run on PRO Damage.

NOTE: Please ensure you join the correct server, due to the way we import if you start the race on the wrong server your result will not count.

Chassis assignments can be found HERE (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=8480.0)

**NOTE**
Whichever chassis a driver begins race 1 with is the chassis he must use for the remainder of the season unless a change has been agreed with the moderator.


About the circuit:

Built in Villa Reale park north of Monza and officially opened on 3 September 1922. The 1933 race was marked by the deaths of three drivers and the Grand Prix layout was changed, with two chicanes added and the longer straights removed. The first grand prix after WW2 was held on 17 October 1948. The high speed bank‌ing was added in 1954. 1961 had a fatal accident, with Wolfgang von Trips and fourteen spectators dying near the Parabolica. Despite the fact that the bankings were not involved in that accident, F1 never raced on the oval again (except in the film Grand Prix made in 1966). The 1000 km Monza staged the last event on the banking in 1969. Various 'safety' measures were introduced in subsequent years with additional chicanes and run off areas.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: kinghiro on March 08, 2011, 12:38:06 AM +0000
I injured my shoulder in tennis. Only way I can participate is with auto gear as it looks now.Never thought about it before, but I t s not prohibited is it?I tried to see through rules technical.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: FullMetalGasket on March 08, 2011, 09:44:36 AM +0000
No reason not to join with it in auto - just be aware it might be a bit harder to control!  ;D


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 08, 2011, 10:21:36 AM +0000
Why do you need a shoulder to change gears? Shifter? Anyway, I would think it's more involved in actually steering the wheel. You can simply set up 2 buttons on your steering wheel for gear changes. That's what I use for a few years now, after my paddles bit the dust.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: kinghiro on March 08, 2011, 12:14:01 PM +0000
look like I have to steer with one hand too unless I improve next hours.I might be able to assist with it parts of the race though but cant depend on it to be active the hole race(typing this with my left hand)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: bernie on March 08, 2011, 12:32:53 PM +0000
Why do you need a shoulder to change gears? Shifter? Anyway, I would think it's more involved in actually steering the wheel. You can simply set up 2 buttons on your steering wheel for gear changes. That's what I use for a few years now, after my paddles bit the dust.


That's now blown the mental picture I always had of H using a wheel handle like those trials cars drivers   :stupid:


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 08, 2011, 12:34:36 PM +0000
Do you use FF? I find it quite OK to drive with one hand doing most of the work and the other just assisting without FF, but it would require fairly weak feedback settings to do it with FF.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: FullMetalGasket on March 08, 2011, 08:22:50 PM +0000
Server is up for anyone who want's to practice online and laugh at my lack of speed!  ;D


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: FullMetalGasket on March 08, 2011, 10:01:32 PM +0000
Didn't last very long - and actually looked like it'd be interesting too  :(


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Phil Thornton on March 08, 2011, 10:02:33 PM +0000
Disappointing end to the season for me.  I think my first gear was a bit tall so I was a bit slow off the line and consequently got tagged by Bernie as he swerved round me.  We both moved a bit so it was 50/50.  That left me facing the wrong way and when I got going I was 6 seconds adrift with no tow.  Had to push very hard to try and bridge the gap but I over did it a bit at Lesmo 2 and lost the left rear in the hedge  :(  race over.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Clutch4 on March 08, 2011, 10:13:37 PM +0000
I know the faster guys in the slower cars have a bit of a moan about Monza, but they're missing the point.

This circuit always produces great, close racing for the majority of the field and ever since i've been with UKGPL i've always been in races here where everyone seems to enjoy it.

I made a poor start and after a few laps ended up racing with guys clearly faster than me in slower cars and guys who are closer to my speed in similar cars. All of us having fun racing together. Isn't that what UKGPL is all about?  ;)

My engine blew after 12 laps, but i didn't care. I was having a blast.

This circuit is always a great end of season finale and puts everyone on a level playing field, meaning even the slowest guys have the potential to win. Always a great way to end the season at a classic F1 venue.

I've hated many of the circuits this season, and liked a few, but this one, brief though it was, was great fun.  :)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: bernie on March 08, 2011, 10:21:27 PM +0000
Got to agree whole heartedly with Mr clutch  :)

Sorry about the tag Phil (thinks , that'l teach the sod ) Not intentional I assure you  ;D

My race ended suddenly with a Disco just as I was having fun with Evil in his underpowerd brabby whatsit thingy

For the first time in ages I was enjoying a bit of close competition , good fun while it lasted  ::)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: kinghiro on March 09, 2011, 12:52:06 AM +0000
I don t use FF my wheel doesn t have any:). anyway leaving the injured arm with the stick worked fine although a bit new to me. These was a very intense race..a bit too intense sometimes  and somewhat frustrating. I was caught behind Baab in the start and was down to 5 th. managed to climb to 3 rd..and after that there was alooong dice with Al baab and me. Now the frustration comes. The slower cars from behind start catching up because we just have too many close battlles in slow areas. I was side by side with baab in almost every Lesmo 1 and para. I tried my best to communicate, but maybe I was not that easy to understand always either. Al gave way for me sometimes I didn t want to attack but just change line to minimize chance for shunting. I guess it could be read as an attack.
Bob has a spin in L1 in dice with H (me at third now) and after that I drove together with H all to the end. My engine bringing him over the line 00.5 secs ahead although he was first out of Para.
Reliefed when it was over .I had a win preassure. One shouldn t loose to a bt7 with a BRM at Monza, but H did an amazing job sticking to my tale.
THe main victory from this was ofc to pass Gøran in the chip :D. I sensed some frustration from your side but thx for the gz I saw after you left. I ll have a look at the rpy from your view too.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 09, 2011, 03:53:12 AM +0000
This is one of the most intense races I've ever had! (or have I already used that line for other races before, but just don't remember?)

I knew I had no chance whatsoever in the BT7 against the army of BRMs and BT11s (how come we have so many of those??), but to qualify in 7th despite a tow from Evil (great team work in Qualifying) was rather disheartening. I had low expectations for the race and just wanted to finish behind that pack of fast cars, and maybe pick up a place or two if any would retire.

After an advice from Tim for using 6th gear only for slipstreaming and which worked quite well after I put it to the test in Qualifying when we did the team tow run with Evil, it led to having a slightly longer 1st gear than I would've liked, but it was just enough to make a decent start as I shifted up from neutral.

The BRM in front (which I assume was Tom, judging from his report) had a bad start and I passed it in the first few meters, then got passed myself by someone else and kept the outside line in CG. I quickly realized the difference in speed between my BT7 and the BRM/BT11 pack in front, and that the only chance to keep up with them was to never lose the slipstream.

Easier said than done though, especially with the drivers around me driving a bit overly-defensive and thus forcing me to go slower through corners - something which I couldn't afford to do! I had a few outbursts of actually saying things to them and waving my fist, as well as doing the latter in game.  >:( ;D

It's easy to drive defensively when you have the power to re-catch those in front, but it's a source of desperation when your only chance to make up time in corners is being compromised by another driver like that. Anyway, because those in front seemed to be too involved with their own battle, they were not going at optimal speed and I was soon up to 5th and catching them up.

The slipstream from the frontrunners (I don't really know who was who) was alowing me to break away from those behind me, even though they stayed within reach, ready to take advantage of any little mistake. The slipstream-only 6th gear worked great and allowed me to go slightly faster than a BRM running without a tow at the end of the longest straights, which was enough to make passes, especially when combined with slower corner exits by the BRM drivers.

Even so, as soon as I would pass someone, they were immediately back to regain their position, so I needed some tactical approach to make it stick. The way it worked best was passing someone under braking into Lesmo 1, after getting a better exit speed out of CG (which I suppose was down to better setup for that particular turn), and then pulling away through the two Lemos and using the slipstream of the next car in front to break away or at least defend against any attacks. Then I could fortify my defense by a faster Parabolica and switch to using the same tactic on the next car.

Obviously there was a shortcomming of that in the sense that I'll have nobody to pull me forward once I pass the leader, but there was no time to think about that at the time. It took many laps to even reach the leader, whoever it was at the time, and then make a proper pass, but by the time it happened, some of those running in the pack had dropped back - Clutch, Fulvio, Al, Nathan and Bob. I was eventually left to fight only against Tom's BRM, and it was one of the faster BRMs, especially compared to Bob's, whose strange driving habits were really irritating - slowing down on the exit of corners, driving extremely defensively costing us both time, and then running oddly slow down the straight, despite having a BRM.

Anyway, once I remained the only challenge to Tom, I wanted to make sure we break away from the rest, so I didn't attack like mad everywhere I could, but just hung on with him and passed whenever it came naturally, without compromising our corner speeds too much. It worked positively and with our mutual slipstream and exchange of positions, we soon doubled the gap back to Al and Nathan from 5 to 10 seconds.

I needed to test how I was going to finish in front of Tom at the line, so I tried a couple of attacks at different places and observed how quickly he could repass me back, and what were his weakest places at the track. It appeared that as long as I could get a faster exit off Lesmo 2 and use the tow on the run to Parabolica, I could pass Tom and then it all depended on accelerating earlier than Tom. In 2 out of 3 attempts, it worked fine, so I was optimistic, but there were still 5 laps to go.

In those 5 laps I didn't make any more attacks and just put pressure on Tom, hoping he would brake too late and go off, or something. That didn't happen, so the tension was building up all the time until the final lap. I was very nervous at this point and almost lost it in Lesmo 2, but managed to accelerate slightly better and use the tow provided by Tom's BRM.

Tom decided to take an inside line on the entry to Para instead of the outside line, which he took in all of my previous test attacks, so I had to improvise and brake late, and then accelerate earlier through the outside of the corner.

It worked quite well to be honest, but Tom had a very good exit as well and was a bit too close compared to the previous times when I managed to cross the s/f line in the lead.

As it turned out, he just managed to pass me at the end, by 5 hundreds of a second.  :(

Grats to Tom, of course, great racing, very clean! I just wish the others would not have raced so aggressively and defensively so early on, because you really don't gain anything like that on such a powertrack where slipstream is of big importance. Of course, it helped to me keep up and catch up with them, which I wouldn't otherwise have a chance of doing, but it's counter-productive and it also slowed me down once I become a part of the fight. It was even crucial for me because I couldn't afford to lose time in corners and lose the tow from those ahead.

I thought I had a chance to win the title after his retirement and had I won the race, but apparently I was wrong, so grats to Tim for the Championship! Well deserved!

-=Hristo=-


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: G Jonsson on March 09, 2011, 11:12:44 AM +0000
Anyway, once I remained the only challenge to Tom, I wanted to make sure we break away from the rest, so I didn't attack like mad everywhere I could, but just hung on with him and passed whenever it came naturally, without compromising our corner speeds too much. It worked positively and with our mutual slipstream and exchange of positions, we soon doubled the gap back to Al and Nathan from 5 to 10 seconds.

I just wish the others would not have raced so aggressively and defensively so early on, because you really don't gain anything like that on such a powertrack where slipstream is of big importance. Of course, it helped to me keep up and catch up with them, which I wouldn't otherwise have a chance of doing, but it's counter-productive and it also slowed me down once I become a part of the fight.

-=Hristo=-


This is why Hristo came in second, nearly winning, a race at Monza in a BT7. It really make the rest of us, except Tom, in much faster cars look rather...... well I do not know what word to use but it surely in not flattering.

I made a good start and was leading from the grid. I knew of cause it would not stay that way but I did not expect most of the others in the faster cars to battle it out among themself all the way and that way letting Hristo in the BT7 keep up, and pass, us.

In the end it of cause is my own inability that is the key here but I was really frustrated when I was in thees fights and more then once with two BRM`s in front battling in a way that was both very slow, when it came to laptimes, and hopeless to pass because they were allways going side by side down the straits. It did not help me much that I was quite a bit faster in the corners because I was nearly always behind two BRM`s side by side.

If you would have used the tow, passed the other and then gone back to the line swapping positions on every strait it would have gone very much faster and then of cause at the end battle for the position. Of cause I can see the fun in battling the way you did and why should you mind my wishes really but at the time I was not using kind words.

So, let me express my greatest admiration for Hristo and also Tom for not letting him be caught in the rest of the pack.

And my congrats to Tim for winning the championship.

Göran

 


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: bernie on March 09, 2011, 11:46:18 AM +0000
Quote
I was very nervous at this point and almost lost it in Lesmo 2

Blooming heck ! H so at least one of your parents are humanoid  :o


And this fascinating race was a product of all those who are "sick to death of "  or  "hate"  Monza,  and dont want it included in S21 or ever again  ;D


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Clutch4 on March 09, 2011, 12:15:23 PM +0000
Well said Bernie.

I also saw a few comments from people in slower cars implying it was a waste of timing appearing at Monza, but H's drive proves that if you have the racecraft and the slipstream you can make a difference.

What i also like about Monza, and this has happened in the past, but not so much on this occasion for me, is that 2 competing drivers, can work together to achieve an overall faster lap time (with slip stream) to bridge the gap to those in front. Spa is the only other Track where i've noticed this happen.

If Monza is dropped then it'll be a real loss, especially now that it is proven that any type of car can compete at the front end of the grid.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: EvilClive on March 09, 2011, 12:19:11 PM +0000
Looks like you had a great race Hristo  ;D     Grats to Tim on the championship win  :notworthy:

I think that all the BT7 and Cooper drivers knew that this was going to be a tough race and that slipstream was crucial against the BRM and BT11 brigade.
Waza team tactics dragged me to a reasonable grid slot and although I bogged down at the start I was at least tagged on to the back of the main pack and able to benefit from the slipstream to keep up.

I was in no rush to pass anyone this early in the race , so when Tim took advantage of my tow and slipped past at Parabolica I was not concerned as I was still being dragged around by the crowd. Juha closed up in the Honda and out dragged me to Curve Grande dropping me back to 10th place but still tail end charlie with the main pack, so no probs.

Then it all went wrong when Juha and Tim tried to take Curve Grande side by side and touched, resulting in a few spectacular cartwheels and 2 retirements.
I negotiated the show without contact, but it cost me some loss of speed and more importantly the gap to the next car was now at the limit of the slipstream effect!! Slowly I was losing ground and despite trying to max out through Lesmos and Parabolica I just could not close the gap and the main pack eased away.
Bernie had dispensed with Phil behind me and the higher straight line speed of his car hauled me in and made the pass. Once he was in front I could comfortably stay with him because of the tow on the straights. Passing him and getting away might be another problem, but for the moment I was happy to be dragged along and maybe Bernie would pull me up to the cars in front??
Then he got tired and vanished just as we entered Curve Grande, which was a bit scary!! was he going to reappear on my bonnet??? but he was gone for good.
That was about lap 10 of 35. From then on I did not see another car for the whole race and ran in 8th and  last place. :-\


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 09, 2011, 12:30:19 PM +0000
Well said Bernie.

I also saw a few comments from people in slower cars implying it was a waste of timing appearing at Monza, but H's drive proves that if you have the racecraft and the slipstream you can make a difference.

What i also like about Monza, and this has happened in the past, but not so much on this occasion for me, is that 2 competing drivers, can work together to achieve an overall faster lap time (with slip stream) to bridge the gap to those in front. Spa is the only other Track where i've noticed this happen.

If Monza is dropped then it'll be a real loss, especially now that it is proven that any type of car can compete at the front end of the grid.

You're not quite right. Regardless of how fast I could go, it would've been IMPOSSIBLE to have any impact on the fast cars in front had they not worked against each other. So I was just lucky that's the way it unfolded and nothing to do with the track. As far as the track is concerned, I would've finished in a lowly 5th or 6th if those ahead used the tow properly to pull each other forward.

So yes, I still insist Monza (and similar tracks) should be dropped at least once off the schedule, because it completely kills any REALISTIC chance for the slow car drivers, yet there is not a single track which favours those drivers - the faster cars are always faster, no matter the track. I can't rely on others making mistakes all the time. Plus, come on, we've had Monza for ALL seasons, in all divisions so far...

Having just read Evil's report, there's a lot more realistic development of events for a slow car driver. I would've been in exactly the same position had those in front not fought like mad. In fact, even when they did, I nearly lost the tow at one point. And it also assumes you NEVER make mistakes. Even a single error drops you back by a mile. So please don't tell me this Monza race proves anything, because it doesn't...


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: FullMetalGasket on March 09, 2011, 12:35:35 PM +0000
Apart from last season you mean?  ;)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 09, 2011, 12:37:14 PM +0000
Apart from last season you mean?  ;)

Well, we can continue that tradition.  ;D


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: miner2049er on March 09, 2011, 01:16:14 PM +0000
we've had Monza for ALL seasons, in all divisions so far...

Apart from last season you mean?

.... and this season ....

So yes, I still insist Monza (and similar tracks) should be dropped at least once off the schedule, because it completely kills any REALISTIC chance for the slow car drivers

Well, I won't speak for Amateurs as I didn't mod it or compete in it, but the thinking behind the allocations and the circuits in Novices is that they are based over the season and not each race. Over the season every chassis gets an equal chance of a win and the allocations don't give slow cars a chance at every track which is where those cars have to finish as high as they can and in the points, knowing those points will still count at the end.

So please don't tell me this Monza race proves anything, because it doesn't...

It does, it proves the Novices will be using it again next season.  ;D ;D


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 09, 2011, 01:21:58 PM +0000
What you mean "and this season", Mike? We just had a Monza race!  ;D And yes, I'm talking about the divisions I've raced only. When I say all seasons and all divisions, of course we skipped Monza once or twice in a single division or two, but that's over the span of 20 seasons!


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: EvilClive on March 09, 2011, 01:47:08 PM +0000
The comments re Monza are all true, from all sides.
 From the point of view of the BT7's and Coopers and from those in the BRM's and Brabhams etc. I guess it depends from which side of the fence you are viewing these comments.

Yes, a "slower" car in the hands of a fast driver can keep pace with one of the faster chassis, but to make a pass and take the position absoutely requires the services of another car ahead to offer some slipstream assistance. Otherwise the BRM or whatever will just breeze past on the next straight and any mistake by the slower car that allows the gap to grow will leave him floundering.

If, as Hristo was, it is a 2 car dice, there is only one chance to take the place, and that is exiting Parabolica on the last lap and then just hope and pray you can hold on until you cross the S/F line. Which even Hristo could not manage to do ( although it was close!!)

The difference between Hristo's race and mine was the availability of slipstream, because at Monza the BT7's and Coopers are doomed without it.
 Hristo managed, with the help of cars in front holding each other up in the early laps, to stay within the slipstream range and contest the places.
My race was the opposite once I was cast adrift (because of Tim and Juha's incident) from a position where I could pick up the tow from anyone in front. I slowly lost ground and spent 2/3rds of the race totally alone and driving for 30 minutes like a metronome. My only hope of picking up places was for someone in front to make a mistake or break down, whilst I pushed as hard as I could for the whole race with no mistakes.
After Bernie's disco I did not even see another car for the next 30minutes . No-one lapped me and I could not even glimpse the car in front. If it was not for Prib I might even have thought that no-one else was there!!

The BT7 and the Cooper can be made to handle reasonably well and it is only by fully exploiting the handling at 100% lap after lap to make up time through corners that you can make these cars competitive at most tracks.
Monza has only 2 corners that require any braking and real commitment.  Lesmo 2 is treated as a virtual second apex in the 65's as all the speed is lost through Lesmo 1 and you just have to get on the gas at the right moment to exit cleanly towards Parabolica. So, 2 spots where good driving in a BT7 might gain you something, against the other 80% of the lap where faster cars just nail the gas and can drive away without any effort??

Those in faster cars probably do indeed get some close racing because the "ability factor" is once again nullified to a 2 corner advantage with most of the lap relying on your right foot? But close racing along a straight is surely not that satisfying is it??
On that basis Avus would be an even better circuit for close racing than Monza???

Personally I think that the "fed up with Monza" comments are because we have just run so many races over the last couple of weeks at the same circuit.
Monza once every 6- 8weeks would not be a problem I feel but every race for 4 weeks is just a tad boring for me.





Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: maddog on March 09, 2011, 02:00:20 PM +0000
Monza is a track where, too much of the skill is left to the engineers. :hammer:


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Clutch4 on March 09, 2011, 02:25:57 PM +0000
I think at Monza, Slipstream is king (obviously) and the car difference isn't as big as the BT7 and Cooper drivers make out, *Unless* you are out of the Slipstream.

Out of the slipstream a BT11 or BRM Driver is as helpless as at BT7 or BRM Driver when trying to catch the slipstreaming cars in front, whether they are fighting with each other or not.

Obviously out of Slipstream, BT11's, BRM's..etc have an advantage, but 'In traffic & Slipstreaming' at Monza, the difference isn't as HUGE as its made out to be between the chassis.

I guess its all about creating a mix of Tracks over the Championship Season which suit different people / cars (just like 'real' racing), its not all about the BT7 brigade having 'a shot' at victory, sometimes you've gotta bite the bullet and make the best of a bad job, which H clearly did with a lowly...er... podium spot in a BT7 on a power circuit.

Anyway, lets drop Monza for Reims or Hockenheim next season...??  ;)





Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: miner2049er on March 09, 2011, 02:58:26 PM +0000
And yes, I'm talking about the divisions I've raced only. When I say all seasons and all divisions, of course we skipped Monza once or twice in a single division or two, but that's over the span of 20 seasons!

I know, I know, irony doesn't work well in text, but the Novices haven't used it this season.  ;)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 09, 2011, 03:01:13 PM +0000
I think at Monza, Slipstream is king (obviously) and the car difference isn't as big as the BT7 and Cooper drivers make out, *Unless* you are out of the Slipstream.

I can promise you that if you put me in a BRM and you take the BT7/Cooper, you're NEVER going to keep up, even with slipstream... it's one thing comparing drivers of different ability in different cars, and quite another comparing only the cars.

And how can you say BRM/BT11 drivers were hopeless without a slipstream? It only took a slight delay of acceleration out of Lesmo 2 to almost completely lose the tow to Tom ahead, on the whole run towards Parabolica.

As for your handicap suggestions, I have always thought that the idea is to give every driver a chance of victory, at EVERY race. I don't agree we should have a race where someone has to bite the bullet, such as the case with BT7/Cooper at power tracks.  ::) Why don't you bite the bullet instead?

And you're talking about my 2nd place as if it's an objective result, ignoring why it actually occured - people driving overly-aggressive, holding each other up, people going off or retiring, etc...


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Clutch4 on March 09, 2011, 03:55:34 PM +0000
Fair do's, stick me in a BT7 / Cooper next season. Lets hope Monza comes up.  :D


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: FullMetalGasket on March 09, 2011, 07:34:57 PM +0000
Can do if you really want Clutch!  ;D
Although I think you may change your mind by then  ;)


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Baab on March 09, 2011, 08:09:09 PM +0000
Hmmm...okay well my racing seems to have raised a few comments.  It sounds like this type of race is usually quite strategic, I have to admit this was all lost on me (no sh!t).  65s takes a back seat to 67s for me and I'd barely turned a 65s wheels at monza.  When I took the lead I managed to pull a small gap, which was then closed down and what I thought was an entertaining battle ensued.  I put a wheel on the grass into Lesmo when H passed (fantastically late on the brakes) and spun, collecting a few in the process.  Sorry if this put anyone out.  Having taken pole (albeit due a lucky draft from KH, wasn't even a tidy lap) I was considering starting from the pit lane to ensure I didn't mess anything up for anyone, but then though there'd be no chance of a draft.

It took many laps to even reach the leader, whoever it was at the time, and then make a proper pass, but by the time it happened, some of those running in the pack had dropped back - Clutch, Fulvio, Al, Nathan and Bob. I was eventually left to fight only against Tom's BRM, and it was one of the faster BRMs, especially compared to Bob's, whose strange driving habits were really irritating - slowing down on the exit of corners, driving extremely defensively costing us both time, and then running oddly slow down the straight, despite having a BRM.

Disappointed with H's comments. I have a lot of respect for your driving H, but you carry on like everyone owes you a favor.  It's a race and you have to deal with whatever happens, I'm not there to ensure you carry your speed through the corners, etc.  Not sure what to say about my car being slow, I didn't build it myself!  You seem to be insinuating something...whatever, I managed to get pole and FL so it can't have been too bad. Let's hear it...


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: EvilClive on March 09, 2011, 09:14:10 PM +0000
Believe it or not, I am not really complaining about having to drive a Cooper or BT7, and I don't think Hristo or Tim are either. In fact, I get quite a buzz out of forcing every last ounce of performance out of the 2 screamers and mixing it with the more powerful cars in 65's.

We were given those cars because we finished in the top 3 places last season and were deemed fast enough as drivers to still be able to compete. We still managed to cling to the top of the points table this season (by fingertips in my case ) with some very hard racing and getting steady points finishes through the season.
Whether that proves us to be better drivers, or whether it shows that the tracks generally favoured the BT7 or Cooper, is open to endless debate.

I feel partially to blame for the "oh no not Monza again!!"  complaint because I blatantly used it for the GT races to draw in a full grid as I knew how popular it is with most drivers.

 


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 09, 2011, 09:54:05 PM +0000
Disappointed with H's comments. I have a lot of respect for your driving H, but you carry on like everyone owes you a favor.  It's a race and you have to deal with whatever happens, I'm not there to ensure you carry your speed through the corners, etc.  Not sure what to say about my car being slow, I didn't build it myself!  You seem to be insinuating something...whatever, I managed to get pole and FL so it can't have been too bad. Let's hear it...

Well, if you're disappointed by hearing the truth, then how disappointed must I be for you to deny it? You still did not answer why you slowed down on straights and corner exits, was it a strategy (I hope not) or you had problems? Given that I had no option but to stay flat out all the time if I was to keep up with the leader's slipstream, your actions at the time were obviously extremelly unnatural and frustrating, especially since you had such a fast car and you did not have to resort to playing any games against the rest of us.

And if you think I alone noticed those patterns in your driving, it's not true - the others who raced at the front has seen it as well. It's fine to me if you were just making mistakes or had gear shifting problems, but it happened quite often for me to easily believe that, so go ahead and convince me by explaining what exactly were you doing.

Oh and since you know you have bad warp with your wireless internet, you can't just put others in danger by going too close to them and expecting them to move away to avoid warp contact. It's like you use your warp in your own advantage, relying on others to take the responsibility for dealing with it more than yourself.

I've nothing against you, it's great to have a fast driver like yourself, but don't deny things that actually happened, because we can easily go back and review the replay to confirm them...


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Baab on March 10, 2011, 08:14:26 AM +0000
Well, if you're disappointed by hearing the truth, then how disappointed must I be for you to deny it? You still did not answer why you slowed down on straights and corner exits, was it a strategy (I hope not) or you had problems? Given that I had no option but to stay flat out all the time if I was to keep up with the leader's slipstream, your actions at the time were obviously extremely unnatural and frustrating, especially since you had such a fast car and you did not have to resort to playing any games against the rest of us.

So what are you, "The guardian of the truth"?  Now you are trying to tell me how I was driving??  Behave yourself!  The only game I was playing was GPL. 

And if you think I alone noticed those patterns in your driving, it's not true - the others who raced at the front has seen it as well. It's fine to me if you were just making mistakes or had gear shifting problems, but it happened quite often for me to easily believe that, so go ahead and convince me by explaining what exactly were you doing.

Not that I have to explain anything to you, I had a few dodgy gear changes because I have just switched to using buttons, other than that I really have no idea what you're on about.  May have had to lift a bit if it got out of shape, all the rest is in your head.  If you've got issue with my driving refer to moderators, I'm sure they'll deal with it.


Oh and since you know you have bad warp with your wireless internet, you can't just put others in danger by going too close to them and expecting them to move away to avoid warp contact. It's like you use your warp in your own advantage, relying on others to take the responsibility for dealing with it more than yourself.

Unbelievable...I am now using warp to my advantage?!!  I didn't even know I was warping until Al mentioned at the end.  Yes I had been warping in the previous race, but as I mentioned in chat I changed some settings and raced a friend, who reckoned it was much better, hence thought it was ok.  I will try to sort this, but don't tell me I use this to my advantage, you're just talking total rubbish.  Can't wait to hear what you are going to accuse me of next.

I've nothing against you, it's great to have a fast driver like yourself, but don't deny things that actually happened, because we can easily go back and review the replay to confirm them...

You don't seem to be able to ever let anything go Hristo, always seems you have to be right and have the last say.  You're telling me what is and isn't true, just your opinion.  Go through the replay if you wish, it's your time.  You were only behind me for about a lap, you make it sound like the entire race.
[/quote]


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 10, 2011, 11:23:21 AM +0000
Behave myself? Listen, if you nearly ruin my race with your dodgy driving, I'm completely entitled to not only mention it in my report, but answer back to your ridiculous reply back above which neither explains why you acted strange on the track nor showed any glimpse of remorse for doing so.

You could've just said "I had a few dodgy gear changes" and that would've been it, but no - you just had to act smart and mighty, didn't you? And how can you say you had no clue of your warp issues? As much as others see you warping, you see all other cars warping as well. Not to mention that it's not your first race and it's not the first time you warp like that.

I had let it go as soon as I wrote my report, but you acted like I was accusing you of things you didn't do without even having the decency of giving your own side of the story first. Before you go any further and since you obviously have a loss of memory for certain things you did on the track, go and review the replay, then come tell me where exactly I said something which was not true in terms of what you were doing on the track and not why you did it. The "why" part, as I already clearly said in my race report, was just nothing more than some guesses on my part, which a single line or two from yourself would've cleared out.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Baab on March 10, 2011, 04:39:04 PM +0000
You can mention whatever you want in your 'report' but you've got to expect some comeback if you criticize, which you duly received.  Again, I don't need to explain anything to you, but I stated a few reasons anyway.

I wasn't acting 'smart and mighty', it's you who's making the accusations, which are certainly not true.  Fabricating stories that I was using warp to my advantage!  Saying such utter rubbish is bound to cause a reaction. 

Again, if you read what I wrote I mentioned changing some settings which made me believe my warp issues were resolved.  When racing I had no indication of this as everyone else appeared fine (do you want to dispute this too?).  I will buy a LAN cable though and see if this solves the issue.

This is my last post on this.

See you at the next race!


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 10, 2011, 04:53:47 PM +0000
You didn't just state, you got personal and offensive. Therefore I replied. You should take your own advice and just state, just the same way I did, sticking to your own point of view of how the events unfolded and being honest... just like I did.


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: Hristo Itchov on March 16, 2011, 03:17:11 PM +0000
Just noticed Hiki-Waza narrowly took away the Constructors title in the last race!  ;D


Title: Re: UKGPL Season 20 (2010-2011) Amateurs Trophy (65) - Monza (GP 1955-71) - Mar 8
Post by: FullMetalGasket on March 27, 2011, 06:40:32 PM +0100
Moderators report published  :)