SimRacing.org.uk

Up for a new cracking race at Monza? Good, because for the 9Th round of the Historic trophy we go there. I welcome you all to this event.

There will be chassis restrictions for this one based on the championship standings. Se below.

Please restrict chat to a minimum, (or maybe none).

Moderating will be by reported incidents only, however the moderator will review any incident on lap one. Please submit incident reports within a week after the race so that the moderators report may be out before the next race.

Best of luck.
 
Race List =         iGOR
Server =            UKGPL_T7_2
IP Address =       62.149.202.168
Race date =       15-03-2011
Time =              21.00 UK time
Track =             Monza  1967 
Variant =           66F1 3L engines
Damage Model =  PRO
Qualifying time = 120 minutes but do not join until 35 minutes left. Do not start driving until 30 min left.
Race length =     Pro Long (33 laps)

The track can be downloaded from: Papy track


Group I
Mclaren M2B Ford
T1G Eagle Weslake


Group II
Lotus 43 BRM Ford     
BRM P83
 

GroupIII
Ferrari 312
Brabham BT19
Cooper T81
Honda RA273


Drivers Restricted to cars from Group I
Hristo Itchov
EvilClive


Drivers Restricted to cars form Group II
Al Heller
KingHiro


All other drivers have free chassis choice.

Password: see above
(2) Driver lists can be found here https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=278&theme=6 (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?action=LM2R&group=278&theme=6)

More Monza! What is going on???!?!!  :death:

Massive shunt on the run down to T1 which I couldn't avoid, end of my race :(.  Pity I was looking forward to that one.

I will never understand why people drive so foolishly on the opening lap and especially at Monza. Enough space for 3 cars to run side by side, as was proven in the Spec race, yet some just drive like they're alone on the track. That was a really bad move, Dave, it ruined the race for many of us.  :(

 :-[

So sorry to you all.

Thought I was clear to tuck in behind Syd, but did not see Al coming through in the blind spot.  When I eventually saw him I adjusted but even though from my view we didn't touch, of course we know GPL is not so forgiving.  I should have just kept it straight, but instead ended up spoiling several of your races on the very first lap, shameful!

Hope those who managed to avoid the carnage had a good race, I will now go and find a suitable hole..

Hope it's a dark and smelly one.

I just don't get it, Dave. Fine, you're sorry, but what about next time? What exactly is the benefit of tucking behind the car in front, are you going to win just because of getting a bit of slipstream on lap 1? Especially in these cars, with the MASSIVE long slipstream they provide, you can easily drop behind 2 seconds and still catch up with ease.

And I'm not saying it as a personal attack, but to bring up the point, because it happened again and again in the other Monza races. Think about if the risk of potentially running into someone is worth it at all. I'm more than happy to drop a couple of places on the start if it's going to keep me in the race, yet some of you drive like the race is decided at the end of lap 1 or as if you don't believe you'll get another chance to attack.

It's exactly the reason why I nearly won in the BT7 in Amateurs - people driving in this do or die manner from lap 1, instead of keeping their lines and working with each other to pull away. On such a track, you will never going to win by leading in all laps but the final one.

I'm over the disappointment now LOL ;).  It's been a very unlucky season for me.  Hopefully have better luck next season!!

I would lie if I say I'm over the disappointment. What if this was a Championship deciding race? Sure, it doesn't matter in this case, but seeing this thing happen so often, I can't but try to create some awareness. How many times we say "careful lap 1" or "careful at the start" in GPL chat, before every single race. Countless number of times.

And I don't believe any lost places penalties are going to change a thing if the drivers are unwilling to change their approach. And I don't think it's an issue to be ignored either. You may think I'm being too serious about it, but considering we spend REAL time and REAL effort to attend these races and run in these championships, it's worth being serious about it. Again, nothing personal, Dave. It's not like you're doing it all the time, but it was probably the worst start incident we've had so far in quite a while, so it gives me the incentive to speak about the issue.

I didn't do it for the slipstream H, ironically I did it because I thought turn 1 would be safer in single file and for a better line, but it was a very bad judgment all the same, I simply didn't see him when I looked left but should have known better than to move over at all on the first lap before T1 especially.  Time to invest in triple monitors perhaps!?

Anyway I agree with your comments and feel sh*t about it, hate to spoil anyones race as I know how much we all look forward to them.

Did a fair amount of practise for this and got the fezzer up to a reasonable pace so was looking forward to a decent race for a change .

Muffed the start then got as far as Curva grande , cars flying everywhere , saw a gap which looked as if I could sqeeze through but suddenly all I saw was a close up of red paint , Phil or Gus ? Sorry whoever  :-\

Anyway  race over , didnt realise how many others were involved , thought it was just me out and 1 or 2 others , feel better now the dust has settled .

BTW I think thats the first time ever I qualified in front of Hristo even though he was driving a dog  ;D

Feel sorry for Dave , at least he owned up and didnt blame everything else in sight . Hristo does has a point though regards Lap 1 incidents , we should all be professional enough to avoid this sort of thing by now , escpecially at Monza as its notorious , but it still crops up time and time again  :)

OH, you really did! I didn't notice, grats!  :o

I had a fairly good lap, with slipistream, so your race preparation must've really paid off.

Yes, I agree with you Bernie.  Apologies accepted so we should move on. 

I know we have tried lots of ways to prevent this sort of thing happening.  Pro rules should ensure greater care is taken but that isn't always the case and it doesn't stop warp related problems.  So the only solutions I can think of (apart from asking people to take more care) are:

1.  Allow a shift-R (maybe limited to 1 per race).
2.  Use even looser grids possibly single file (good idea for the GTs anyway).
3.  No overtaking on lap 1.

How about neither of that and just more responsibility from drivers, more severe penalties (so they actually learn and keep it in mind next race) and sticking to your lines after the start, even if it means losing positions, and keeping a good distance from the car in front so you can react on time. I don't like sanitizing the racing just to replace responsibility on behalf of the drivers...

And the issue with allowing shift-r is it means running Int damage, making a big difference in how easy you can blow up and engine or how much damage you would suffer in a collision (with a wall or another car).

I like the single file grid for GTs though.

I would settle for the "use a bit of common sense rule"   :)

As for single file grids and no overtaking rule , well fine as long as you all agree to line up behind me  ;D

How about noovertake until after T1 or T2 ? (Nah ! would just postpone the akko till T3 )

Mayhaps we might have some kind of restart rules for shunts or discos enmass , tough to implement  unless maybe we appointed a none racing observer or Clerk of Course to call the shots and red flag the race    :-\

maybe have a rota for the position ???

Q/ would it work ?

Yes that is the best rule  ;)

I think the problem is exacerbated in divisions with mixed abilities eg Historics and Specs. That's not implying Dave is anything but experienced, I'm sure he's been driving with us since the year dot.
I'm not keen on bringing in artificial things such as no overtaking, warm-up laps etc, the GT's are an exception.
Loose grids are a must but I think making them looser could bring it's own problems. Much more and you will have lots of drivers being out of sight of the flagman. If you say wait till the car in front moves that could create some sort of stop / start situation which would be dangerous in itself, it would also allow the frontrunners to sail off into the distance from the drop.
Penalties are already more severe H, anyone causing an incident on lap 1 is loaded with an extra penalty place. One thing we are considering is full moderation of lap 1 across all divisions. That could be said to be shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted but, it might make people focus a bit more if they know the eye in the sky is watching them.

As regards red flagging Bernie is right - you'd have to have someone sitting it out and watching as the moderator could be ahead in the clear and not know anything about it. At present a race can be red flagged for a mass disco/server problems (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette)).

Well, you already know what I think about the lost place penalty. Even if the driver loses 10 places, it's not a big deal in the end, especially if the driver has retired anyway or finished way back because of the accident he caused.

It seems to me that the penalty system is not working so well. To begin with I agree with Hristo about the places lost. Although it is a easy enough system when it comes to LM2 stuff, I do not think it sends the message clearly enough. Maybe it should be points lost instead.

I think that if you are the cause of a T1 incident, or even pre T1 like this time, you should be taken away from the possibility to do the same in the race that follows. This mean the penalty should be some kind of first lap restrictions for the next race like starting from the back maybe even waiting like 10 sec before you can start. I know some of you do not like the idea that the penalty should be transferred to the next race so maybe there is some other way but I do not see it at the moment. 

The shift-r road is very appealing at first and of cause it does solve the problem but then we are not really racing a simulator thing are we. And my experience from AusGPL and GPLRACER is that the stricter the rules, read GPLRACER, the less problems with first lap incidents. In AusGPL where there is no moderating and shift-r`s are allowed, as many as you like and no S&G to follow, there are more or less always T1 pile ups. But then in AusGPL there is a kind of self-penalty-system that mean that if you feel you are the cause of an incident you wait until the one you hit gets going. And also it has happend more than once that a driver that feels responsible for a T1 pile up on his own accord starts from the back for the next race.

Then there is the matter of when you get points at all. In GPLRACER you have to finish the race to score points, if you do not then you will have a DNF and 0 points, even if you blow the engine on the last lap. But as I said it seems to work because first lap incidents are rare in GPLRACER. They also have what they call a "Startzone" it use to be like the first 3 or 4 corners and if you cause a problem within it you get severely penalised.

Now all this is of cause thoughts for seasons to come so I am not proposing any severe penalty for Dave this time around but I like the idea that you should know that if you do any stupid moves in lap 1 you will not get away with it just because no one submits a incident report.

So to sum it up,

Penalties: lost point instead of lost places.
              lap 1 incidents lead to start restriction's for the next race

And, I also like to see no points if you do not finish the race, or at least a lot of it.

Göran





 

Goran, it's the same thing if it's lost points instead of lost places. The lost places automatically rob you from points. Unless you mean losing points from the driver's championship total prior to that race. I don't like that though, the penalty should be something that does not affect the championship directly nor it robs the driver from a chance to score in future races, but just something to make it more challenging for him to do so.

I also think that if we introduce the minimum race distance finished to score points (i.e. 50%), it would make the lost places penalties even more meaningless, because a driver who caused and accident but retired before reaching the minimum race distance would be totally unaffected by such penalty.

All of these lap 1 incidents suggest to me, that rather too many UKGPL drivers possess more ambition than skill.  Have things worsened in recent times, or is all this discussion just, ahem, spinoff, from our clumsy approach to GT's?  They are new, and different.

Post race penalties, don't bring back races already ended on lap 1.  Seems to me, it's not possible to control a drivers skill, so these penalties are present to control a drivers ambition.  Victims are paying the price for overambition.

2 choices :

1/ You can either try to curb ambition, by applying larger penalties, or . . .

2/ Admit to inadequate skills, and introduce resets, so that all can continue to race ambitiously.

Penalties suggest a deficiency,(overambition) can be fixed, or controlled - resets/stop & go's suggest it can't.

The closest thing to a middle ground I can think of, would be to allow a lap 1 only reset/S&G - full Moderation optional.  This would admit, we're not capable of negotiating the 1st lap responsibly, but at least there'd be a better chance of seeing the finish line.

Of coarse, if everyone prefers a rolling start . . . ?

I couldn't have put it better myself Martin  ;)

Why just a Stop n Go as a penalty for using the Shift-R option?

It could be a 10 second pit stop or 20 seconds? So you are able to continue your race, but it using a Shift-R WILL cost you.

I do hope we don't switch to INT damage just to benefit from shift-r though. PRO damage has been proven to produce cleaner, less incident-prone driving. It's precisely that reason why we don't use INT in the first place. Besides, it affects mechanical failures probability and car damage in incidents.

I'm up for ambition curbing penalties, as Martin said it so well, otherwise people are unlikely to change their approach, knowing that shift-r can get them out of any trouble.

I think we can all agree that penalties are intended to curb bad behavior. The question is what will make a driver behave.

The shift-r is obviously not the answer to that.

Pro rules, no points if you do not finish the race, or at least 50, 90 or some other % of it and severe penalties if you mess up will. At least that is my experience.

But what is the best penalty?

Hristo says "the penalty should be something that does not affect the championship directly nor it robs the driver from a chance to score in future races, but just something to make it more challenging for him to do so"

To, if you cause a T1 incident, make you start at the back of the grid, maybe with some delay too, will do just that, make it more challenging to score points.

But how could a penalty of any sort NOT "affect the championship directly"? what ever you do it will affect the championship and is not that what we want? If you mess up you will have less chance in the championship. Or is it something I do not get here?

The way to go, I think, is to combine to restrict you in the next race if you mess up, with the need to finish the race for you to score points.

Göran

By "directly" I meant taking away points straight from a driver's total, instead of a penalty related to actual racing.

Good point, although they would still get a yellow card accumulation for any future incidents.

Re making people start at the back of the next race etc... The reason I am not keen is, apart from discouraging people from attending future events, you could end up with someone alien-esque at the back trying to fight their way through the whole grid. OK the fast driver might be highly experienced at passing but it's still asking for trouble as the guys in front are racing and not being lapped.

My personal thoughts on drivers having to complete x% of a race to score is that I like it in theory but feel it will penalise anyone who puts in lots of practice, makes the effort of turning up but then gets knocked out very early on. Yes the other guy might get a penalty but that is cold comfort. Not ruling it out, I think it should be down to the division mods, and attendee numbers might prove me wrong. I do think it's a great idea for team v team fun events though.

One thing I can say is that, for Season 21, it is looking 99% certain we will be introducing full scrutiny of lap one across all divisions. I am hopeful this will help in reducing lap one pile-ups as, maybe wishfull thinking, you might be a bit more cautious if you know the 'eye in the sky' is watching you.

Tim, imo you're worrying about things which are simply part of racing and shouldn't be removed or taken care of. You're trying to take away the responsibility of the drivers. If someone does cause accidents repeatedly, why would they be discouraged by such a penalty? And if they are, then they're missing the whole point of safe driving! Do they expect that they can continue driving in the same manner?

It's not like the start from the back penalty is going to be applied at first opportunity, but it should be due accumulation of a number of yellow points (2-3 for instance). For first offence, receiving just a warning is OK imo, although it depends how severe the offence is.

As for drivers having practiced a lot and being taken out, well... that's just the way it is, you get bad luck sometimes! What about someone practicing a lot and getting disconnected or screen freeze or blows an engine at the start? Or what about someone who hasn't practiced at all and gets a podium? It goes both ways and I don't think we should even care about such things, it's just how it is. I find it much more disturbing for drivers who retire on lap 1 to score points, especially if many retire at once and someone completes one more lap, goes into top 5 position, then retires and scores a lot of points.

Sure, I've personally benefited from this myself, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. And I'm certain I would've lost some Championships if we had a minimum distance rule in place, but it would be a lot more objective to who deserves to score points and win Championships. I don't find it serious that you can win by retiring on lap 1 or 2!

A minimum distance rule would cover such things and it would also make drivers focus on finishing, instead of driving like mad right from lap 1. Along with Pro rules, it should lead to more responsibility. And if not, that's where more real penalties should be introduced, because I don't think that some drivers would care much that you're penalizing them with just a formal penalty which doesn't stop them from doing the same thing again in the following races. I don't think that once you're racing you would be affected by 'the eye in the sky' so much as to drive safer. We already have that in place with the manual protest system.

OK as a practical example. I know you are someone who takes their racing seriously so how would you feel if you are comfortably running along in first and someone behind you has gone off. Just as you are about to lap them they rejoin straight onto the racing line, into you and take you out. They however survive the collision. They go on to finish say 7th (11 points). Post race they will probably pick up an Appalingly Bad Rejoin and a three place drop going down to 5 points.
You, on the other hand, happened to be on lap 14 (if we are talking 50%) of a 30 lap race and score zero.

If you are telling me you would do a post race report along the lines of 'well these things happen' I'll eat my socks ;D

Of courses discos and freezes are just a fact of racing and tough.

@Tim, The "full scrutiny of lap one" is already in place in the Historic and it did not do much good at Monza.

I was really puzzled when I joined the UKGPL and found that you would get points just for taking the start of the race, to me that is very strange.

Is there some kind of communication between UKGPL and GPLRACER in this matter? Do you know how GPLRACER have come to the conclusion that you have to finish the race to get points. And when it comes to number of drivers, maybe incidents in itself has a putting off effect?

And about the start-at-the-back-of-the-grid, "discouraging people from attending future events" why? The penalty is for the next race they attend so in that case they have to quit all together and do you really think drivers would do that because of a penalty?

And, "you could end up with someone alien-esque at the back trying to fight their way through the whole grid",  That is not an issue as I see it, the same happens if the alien loose places early on due to an off or something.

The whole penalty system must be there to make it worth while to drive safe, and to not get any points if you do not take your car to the finish or at least near the finish, is IMHO the best way to do that.

As a quick answer to you example when Hristo is taken out by the bad-rejoiner at lap 14, of cause I too think he will be furious but shit happens right? 

Göran

You think I never experienced that? It's happened tenths of times over the years! I would never ask for rules that make a change about such risks, it's part of racing. You can't always have the good luck - It's unnatural! And let's be realistic, it's not something that happens often per driver. It's more or less a single or double occurance for each driver over a season. In the end luck tends to balance out you know - today it would be you, next time it would be, after that it would be someone else.

I don't think we should even consider those cases, but focus only on accidents caused by bad/over-aggressive driving.

@Goran - yes, shit happens. It does in all forms of competitive activity. If you take out the risk element, it loses the attraction. We can't act like kids and always want to draw the long straw and complain when we don't. Sure, it's normal to be angry but you get over it and move on. And if a driver is at fault for causing the accident, you just apply the rules and penalize.

? 

Göran

Good call, I for one hope this becomes 100% certain.

OMG (if I had one), what have I started?!  Although, I get the impression there have been a few such incidents this season.  Just want to say that as the culprit on this occasion, I would and will take any penalty as completely deserved, but even if there wasn't one, I think the embarrassment of being the idiot to cause such havoc is incentive enough to try damnest not to make such a risky move again.

I agree that any points 'earned' from just starting should be erased and to start at the back of the next race would also be a justified penalty, I'm thinking of doing that anyway as I'm not sure I want to even take the chance of being involved in another lap 1 incident for a while, just so you know in case I give up that pole at Efexx!     :-\

Don't worry it always goes this way, it just happened to be you this time ;D

You didn't really started it, Dave, we're continuing a discussion from earlier this season, so it's not your fault, nor I think you should feel as culprit. I don't believe you deserve a penalty to start at the back, as I already said it only seems appropriate as a 2nd or 3rd tier penalty for someone who has already accumulated yellow points and/or caused similar accidents in previous races and repeated that.

Dave, as I can testify, starting at the back does not mean you will not be involved in any incident. You do get a great view of all the balletic pirouettes of the cars as you start picking you're avoiding line though.
Then you hit a previously invisible car, as there is usually a lot of warping and such with a busy incident.
Apologies to Tom as I centre punched him whilst turning my car- glad to see you finished so strongly.

I`m just curious. How come there has been no incident reports submitted for this one?

Göran

    End of season ennui perhaps Goran?

What do you think is the point of reporting? There was only one big accident as far as I know and Dave has already seen his mistake, so what would exactly reporting achieve? It's the reason why I rarely file a report and instead try to discuss things in here, at least when I expect that the people involved are capable of seeing what actually happened, instead of just ignoring it and doing the same thing next race.

Hi Goran,

I thought all lap 1 incidents were reviewed as a matter of course now - or have I got that wrong?

Only in Novices.

The race post does say this...

No further questions, m'lud.  :hammer:

Hummmmm!!!

What have I started??

When I after the Mexico race put the "however the moderator will review any incident on lap one." in the race thread It was to make sure that incidents not being reported could be reviewed. It was not my intention that because "the moderator will review any incident on lap one" no one could or would or should report incidents on lap 1.

But the information business is really tricky and for sure it is very easy to mean something, put it into words and then others read it and get something else. I will try to make this clearer for the next season, I emphasize try.

Anyway it is another thing I would like to address here, Hristo wrote: "What do you think is the point of reporting? There was only one big accident as far as I know and Dave has already seen his mistake, so what would exactly reporting achieve?"

What happend after the race was that in the race thread on this forum Hristo wrote: "That was a really bad move, Dave, it ruined the race for many of us." And Dave responded: "I should have just kept it straight, but instead ended up spoiling several of your races on the very first lap, shameful!"

Then it went on for some time and after that Hristo wrote the above: "What do you think....."

That mean that drivers involved in the incident themself on the forum is "moderating" the incident and then think it is done.  Should the penalty system  come into action only if the drivers involved does not come to an understanding?

OK, it`s not that I like the incident moderating so much that I want many incidents to moderat, it`s just that I do not think it is such a good idea that the drivers involved does the moderating, that it is done on the forum and that the drivers in this way avoids penalties.

I wonder if the situation would be any different if the penalty system instead of using places lost would use yellow cards, so an incident that today would give 2 places lost would give 2 yellow cards and that when you get like 3 yellow card a penalty come into play. So if you in a race get 2 yellow cards, no penalty would be given, until you get the 3rd yellow card.

Göran

 

 

Well, I certainly remember hearing and/or reading a couple of times something along the lines of "Novices is the only division which reviews lap 1 for incidents regardless if drivers send a report or not".

Goran, it's not that I don't see a point of moderating incidents which we've already discussed, but at the moment I don't see what would be achieved if Dave is penalized with a couple of lost places (which is what I'm sure he'll get?).

It's related to my opinion that the penalties are not efficiently affecting the way people approach racing, in a gradual manner. In this case, we can clearly see Dave had seen his wrong and since he rarely does such things anyway, I'm sure he'll learn a great deal from it. Of course, this way of judgement can lead to serious problems, with drivers saying sorry after a race just to escape being moderated, but I believe 100% this is not the case here.

Again, this leads to my opinion that we're not exactly correct in the way penalties are being handed out, nor the effect of some penalties. For instance, in this case we have a driver who's known to be safe, yet if he gets a lost places penalty, how is that 1) going to change anything 2) differentiate him from drivers who cause accidents a lot more regularly and still get the same penalties?

There should be no hint of favoritism, from our Moderators.  A tough part of their jobs is continuity.  Penalties should be even handed - for all or for none, for justice to be pragmatically done.

Sure, I was not saying "do not do it", but asking what exactly is being achieved under the current circumstances and with the current system.

In the moderators report from the Mexico race: ”Moderating will be by reported incidents only, however the moderator reserve the right to review any incident with a particular emphasise on lap one.”

Will be changed to ”the moderator will review any incident on lap one,”


It's just that I do not think we should look at it from the point of achievement in this case. We have a penalty system so we should use it. But I also would like a discussion about if the penalty system should be changed to better achieve what we want, and my idea about changing "places lost" to yellow cards that only lead to an actual penalty if it is more than 3 yellow cards is about having a penalty system that allows a one-time-ofenders but penalise a frequent offender.


A yellow card system would mean that drivers like Dave the "only" time he causes a accident only would get some yellow cards but the driver that cause accidents a lot more regularly would get penalties because he would accumulate yellow cards and that would lead to penalties.

That said, and the fact that the next and last race of the season is tomorrow,oops today hehe, I have decided not to do anything about this Monza race because I would need more time and to have any meaning it should be done before the Efexx race so, no penalties to anyone this time.

Göran

As you will be aware the existing system does accumulate yellow cards so penalties get progressively more severe but penalty places are applied regardless of a drivers past history. The accumulation of yellows does mean it is applied in a gradual manner but I take it you are saying the system is not gradual enough?
Genuine question but why? Where do you feel things have gone wrong with the current system and how would a change like this improve driving standards? My logic says it would have no effect except to provide a 'get out of jail free' card for infrequent offenders.

This obviously doesn't apply to Dave but could it not create a devil may care attitude of 'I get one free crash so can afford to take a few risks till that happens' and actually create more potential incidents.

If the Works/Amatuer/Division 1 Drivers actually bothered to read their own rules once in a while and leave the moderators to get on with their jobs, then maybe they would realise their is little wrong with the moderation/penalty system. In my opinion of course you should apologise if you were involved in an incident lap 1 or anytime. But that should have no affect on the result of any moderation whether driver or moderator initiated unless the drivers involved indicate no fault to the other driver in their reports. Even then it should be down to the moderator. Its not for me to suggest the "better drivers" consider themselves above the rules but they are the ones all too often who appear to be selective with their use and interpreation. I like the penalty system. Geting it wrong in the eyes of the moderator and suffering immediate lost places post race is infinitely preferable to long term accumulation of cards with increasing penaties for transgressions down the line. With the former you might not be happy with the decision but you get over it and get on with it. The latter leads to festering bitterness over the the rest of the season with the fear of even the smallest further mistake leading to a bigger penalty (a sure way to ruin a championship and/or put off drivers).

The key issue I think we need to address is:  why does not drivers involved in incidents submit incident reports?  But tend to only discuss them in the forum?

So maybe there is no accivement in a yellow card system, other than the one we already have, and maybe their is no problem really if we just leave things as they are, after all it is the same for everyone, although I still think is is a bit weird that the same incident one time around will give you 24 points lost if you win the race and get a 3 places lost penalty and some other time only gives you 3 points lost if you do the same but finish the race in p10.


I see your point. But to put the system into action we need incident reports and at the moment we do not get that many, except in Novice. The whole Historic season we only have had 3 and two of them I reported myself. Of cause there is one more race so maybe..........

OK if I am trying to mend something that is not broken then just let`s carry on. After all it makes the moderator position a lot easier.

Göran

Can't say I disagree with you Ronnie.

On a general note there have a number of calls this season for the way the rules/penalty system operates to be changed. I have seen various calls for changes to be made; the system is too harsh, the system is too soft, the system is too shortsighted, the system is too longsighted etc
We have a system of rules and penalties for all members to see and, in general, it is clear cut as to exactly what will get you a penalty and we are all in the same boat. OK there are some grey areas but that's what the moderators are for. If we find something is lacking/unclear/missing we change the rules eg corner cutting. I'm not saying if it ain't broke don't fix it but the whole thing has been developed over the past twelve years and has stood us in good stead, well we're still here anyway ;)

I am not sure why there have been so many calls for a fundamental change but I assume some feel there is an inherent fault in there. Perhaps it is because we have had quite a few 'discussions' re lap one incidents this season. TBH, and someone can prove me wrong, I don't think it's suddenly got any worse or any better. In fact, if anything, it is better - I recall a few seasons ago it was a running joke that there was always a turn 1 pile up in the Novices but that seems to have improved.
If someone genuinely has a grievance at the whole system and feels it is unfair I appreciate their views but please demonstrate exactly how it has been unfair. You could even go as far, if you feel the time it takes warrants your passion, as to review the system over a season based on how you feel the rules should apply. We have all the replays stored for the current one.
To fundamentally alter the way things operate, not just tinker a bit with the rules, is something that would need full membership approval and demonstrating how the system is wrong could achieve this.


PS: I agree there is a reluctance to report incidents. We're a very friendly bunch and perhaps people think they will offend others by doing it? I wish it could be seen differently, it is not a way to get someone back and currently it does create inconsistencies as so many go unreported.

Again a BIG appeal for simple "Common Sense " is all we need , dont recall anyone ever to have shown maliscious intent when they have caused a collision or made contact .

Always driver error is the cause , all it takes is a little thought for other racers a little care and less red mist at the appropriate time , and escp. on lap 1


Is it possible to post a drivers briefing in iGOR prior to each race with a reminder to all and sundry of the perils of Lap1 incidents , maybe that would help  ::)

I guess one solution could be to make incident reports compulsory. It could be conditional, i.e., if an incident occurs on L1 or if it results in another driver's retirement.

I think you're both missing the point we're trying to make, Ronnie and Tim. It's not about that we don't have a grading penalty system in place. It's the penalties themselves that are not gradual enough and reach a point where they don't produce the desired effect, IMO.

Example:

A driver causes an accident in race 1, then receives a yellow card and either a warning or a lost place.

The same driver causes another accident in race 2, and receives another yellow card, and maybe 2 places lost.

The very same driver causes an accident in, say, race 4, and receives yet another yellow card, and 3-4 places lost.

And so on, and so on...

See the flaw in this? I've seen this happening all the time. The penalties simply don't scale up. Do you think a driver who has not changed his approach after getting penalized with a lost place penalty, would change it because he's given 2 or 3 lost places penalty instead? They're still free to race. They're still free to qualify normally. They're still able to drive aggressively for much longer before any more serious or preventive sanctions take place. This is the point I'm trying to bring up.

And the way that's related to people's reluctance to report is because of the way it doesn't really change a thing for the future, especially in the cases where those penalized drivers have either retired or finished down the grid anyway, so the lost places penalties don't affect them whatsoever.

You say you don't understand what's the flaw, but we've already discussed it. It's the inability of the current system to actually punish a driver in a practical manner so they take notice and change their approach. We've already given examples of how it could be done - starting from the back in the next race, doing a mandatory stop/go after the start, and in more severe cases - missing a race. Sure, we have the latter as a penalty option, but we go through a very long plateau of repetitive lost places penalty applications before it kicks in.

Not really. You have just described a gradual penalty system. Its just you don't agree with the penalties applied.


But that is the point of a gradual penalty system as described above. The current system is not there to ban people immediately or penalise them is such a fashion as to deter them from turning up to race. The rules are in place to ban drivers from one or more future races at any time. But I assume that is a last resort and as far as I'm aware the moderators have not stepped in to ban someone they saw as a clear menace after only two or three misdemeanors. I sympathise with your views on this particular issue Hristo but on balance still adopt an inclusive attitude to drivers I have had problems with in the past.


I can't speak for the Works/Amateur drivers but in the Privateers/Novices we are not so reluctant to report other drivers as well as ourselves if we have been involved in an incident. An honest appraisal of ones performance after viewing the replay, even at the risk of condemning yourself, is healthy. We then heed what the moderators say and learn from it. Maybe the Works/Amateur drivers could adopt this attitude.


Just because you have discussed it previously and made some good suggestions does not mean it has all been decided, which is why I am adding my views. I hope they are welcome.
[/quote]

You say "in such a fashion as to deter them from turning up to race". Why should someone who repeatedly causes accidents feel that way? What about people, who are victims or are fed up with someone's bad driving, getting detered from turning up to race because nothing's changing, despite penalties?

This is why I said there's a plateu in the penalty system which relies on the same type of penalty race after race. 1 or 3 places lost, for someone who finishes down or has retired, does it really make a difference? Seems not, actual race events over the past seasons are a proof of it.

Like I said Hristo I sympathise with you on this point and certainly did not mean to detract from the deterring affect on the victims when someone else gets it wrong. But I still have faith in the current penalty system and the moderation team to enforce it. Inclusion or exclusion its a tough call, who would be a moderator (well Paul would actually but then he is special).

It's not a matter of faith, I do have complete faith in our moderators and the unbiased honest decisions they make by applying the current system. It's about discussing the system itself though, and any possible improvements we can make to it so it works better for the future. You can't just assume it's perfect and ignore any shortcomings it may have.

It's exactly through modifications that we've come up to the current system in the first place, it wasn't in its current form initially.

To clarify then as I said originally.

I like the current penalty system. Getting it wrong in the eyes of the moderator and suffering immediate lost places post race is infinitely preferable to long term accumulation of cards with increasing penalties for transgressions down the line. With the former you might not be happy with the decision but you get over it and get on with it. The latter leads to festering bitterness over the the rest of the season with the fear of even the smallest further mistake leading to a bigger penalty (a sure way to ruin a championship and/or put off drivers).

It may not be perfect but I accept it and am happy to race understanding the consequences. As for additional penalties involving starting at the back of the grid or time penalties, someone has already explained how these potentially will only encourage further aggressive driving as faster drivers work their way through. I don't like the idea of banning people any earlier than necessary for even one race let alone several races and think the moderators have been correct in not applying this draconian measure at the earliest provocation.

As Vos said the basic current rules have been in place for over a decade. I'm not saying they cannot ever be improved but I don't think the issue of bad drivers/driving warrants any major changes to them, certainly not any of the measures I have seen so far, in my opinion.

Ronnie, you still look at it from the point of view of the driver who is being penalized. The idea of penalties is not to please the driver who does wrong, but to improve the quality of racing. I couldn't care less if someone is causing accidents repeatedly yet acts like an offended child whenever they get serious penalties. If it's going to save the others from suffering more accidents, then it's for good.

Infinitely better? It's infinitely better to keep going through the same type of accidents every single race and hand out penalties which obviously don't change the driver's approach to racing? Oh please... if someone refuses to see they're doing wrong and if lost places penalties are obviously not strong enough incentive to make them realize they're actually doing wrong, then how can you say it's infinitely better?

I don't really see how a gradually increasing severity of penalties based on yellow card accumulation is bad for anyone. Firstly, it begins to ring a louder and louder bell in the ears of the driver who is doing wrong. Secondly, it leads to cleaner racing because the drivers at fault would drive more carefully, unless they want to RISK starting at the back, missing a race and so on heavier penalties past some point.

I would understand if you speak from your experience, but it goes to show you've either ignored some situations from the last few seasons, going through all divisions, or you've just not experienced the situations of which I'm speaking of. I'm quite tired of seeing drivers getting penalized over and over with lost places penalties which still allow them to do their example of bad driving in the following races, yet you're worried about detering them from racing instead of the others...

In the same relation and as was mentioned in another thread, the lost places penalties would have an even less impact if we introduce (and many definitely think we should) a minimum race distance coverage before you're eligible to score points, because anyone who retires before that minimum distance would be completely unaffected regarldess if you penalize them by 1, 2 or 5 lost places!

Well as you say in the long run there are bans. If someone starts picking up penalties on a frequent basis I can assure you it is looked at but before heading to the extremes of bans etc we try to address any issues and work with the driver. We don't sit idly by thinking just ignore it until they hit ten or more.

That does bring us roundcircle to incident reporting. The modders take action for penalties accrued not hearsay on the forums so we can only address issues where things are being reported. If you look at this season, and exclude the novice leagues, only one person has picked up penalties/yellows in more then one race and that happens to be you.
So where is the problem?

You say you work with the driver. How, by talking? If it's a driver who has not changed anything in his approach despite talks and discussions after his previous infringements, and despite lost places penalties, then what?

I know there are severe penalties such as bans for 1 race or a whole season, but between that and the light penalties such as warning and lost places, there is a void. A driver keeps getting small penalties repeatedly, for quite a long time, then suddenly bang, a ban! Why can't you see the benefit of having a gradual increase in the severity and more importantly - the type - of penalties, so we'll both have a driver react sooner to change his approach and avoid reaching the point where bans kick in?

The door?

I'm not saying you're completely wrong H and I do appreciate what you are saying in this instance. Each case is treated on it's own merits ie is it a specific problem, eg rejoins, or general aggresive or overdriving. It's just my view is work with them to improve/address any issues rather then start hitting them with pit lane starts etc. Yes the wheels may turn slowly but we should give someone every chance first. The current penalties we can apply are here (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/league);

Post-race penalties can include:
Warning
Time/position penalty
Exclusion from the results
Suspended race ban
Race ban
Multiple race ban
Total ban from UKGPL

Notice the words 'can include'. If it was felt appropriate we could make someone start at the rear/pit lane/ do a SnG in the next race already. I'd need a good reason as I try to use the carrot rather then the stick and do think the system works now - we don't have any of those drivers?

I am saying your wrong Hristo and I was wondering when you would adopt your condescending attitude to anyone who disagrees with you. As always you never let me down.

You still don't get it Ronnie. While you're just saying "I like" and "I think", you're not supporting your statements with any real data or facts. I'm discussing things objectively, based on observations of the past and the current season. It's not just about what I personally like. Sure, keep your opinion, if it pleases you, but saying that you like something doesn't reveal your actual reasons for liking it or for disliking what I'm saying. You make absolute statements, using words such as "infinitely", without presenting facts to prove the validity of all that, and you expect others to say "oh yeah, you're right"? Not gonna happen. It's like you're ignoring the numerous cases where the penalty system didn't work to improve the racing, or in other words, didn't work as intended.

When was the last time we used anything but the first two penalties? Even for drivers who had accumulated a lot of yellow cards. How do you decide when to apply a harsher penalty? Shouldn't it be on a gradual system matching the number of yellow cards? Otherwise it becomes very subjective, don't you agree? We have to remember that no yellow card points and no penalty is forever, they're temporary, even total ban can be temporary in the long-term.

Your wearing me down Hristo LOL;
Warning - yes
Time/position - yes
Exclusion from the results - yes a few times this season for those naughty Privateers :o
Suspended Race Ban - yes but not this season
Race Ban - yes but not this season
Multiple Race Ban - yes but not this season
Total ban fom UKGPL - No I don't think it has ever come to that

Depends how subjective you think I am? And I think those penalties last for six months plus but I'd have to check.

I think we are getting into ever decreasing circles now, what is making you so aggrieved? Aside from the Novices where we've had shedloads and always do but it's a learner division, and I think we have been fair in that as you can no doubt count the yellows, where is this issue with persistently problem drivers who need extra cropping cropping up?

It's the gap in availalbe penalties. The first 3 affect past race results, from just a warning to a full drop from the results, so all is fine there, it's gradual. But the other 4 penalties not only cover future races, but are quite extreme - bans! There's nothing which allows a driver to participate, yet compromise his chances by presenting a bigger challenge. You say that would deter drivers from participating, but I say a single race ban would deter someone 10 times more, especially if all they've been getting so far was losing places and results, which obivously have no effect on future racing.

You can easily make it work IMO. Let's say a driver has a bunch of yellow cards and has already been penalized with a warning, lost places and possible exclusion from results. You can write in the report "Driver X is going to get a more severe penalty (start from the back, make stop/go, etc.) next time he/she repeats the offense." That way a driver will not be put off because they'll know in advance that they HAVE to change their approach or they risk compromising their future races. Under the current rules, it will be a ban that they'll receive. You speak of letting people race, yet we jump straight to bans when things get more serious.

So what you are saying Vos, it that it is OK for me as a mod to give a driver a "start from the back of the grid" or a 10 sec pitstop penalty without changing the rules? Even though there are no such option in the "Penalty Guidelines"

Göran

There is nothing to stop that but, as it is not in the general penalty guidelines, I would say you need an exceptional reason to do it. The rules were written down to provide some consistency in the moderation across all divisions and moderators.
Now I'm guessing you might say what is an 'exceptional reason'... I haven't had one yet which is why I've never done that but on pure conjecture let's say someone has amassed lots of penalties to the point of being in suspended ban territory. Now it may be appropriate to hold back on that so it would not be beyond the realms of possibility to consider one of your suggestions as a prelude.
The problem is each case is individual so it's not easy to lay down hard and fast rules, and I'm pretty sure H will say that's why he wants some. I think this kind of thing is only appropriate where there are ongoing issues and the reason behind those differ by driver as our approach should differ. That's not to say there isn't any consistency - in the long run the suspension/ban process would be implemented as a last resort.

Again I would say it doesn't appear to be an issue for us now? If it became a regular problem then we would, of course, have to revisit the whole process.

It is interesting that you Vos, and Ronnie, seems to think starting from the back of the grid, or having to do a S&G/pitstop in the next race is a very severe penalty that should be used only as a kind of last opportunity if at all, while in GPLRACER it is the most common penalty. Btw, im my view a yellow card, or red, should not follow you more than one race. If you get a yellow card, or red, in one race and in the next stay out of trouble then you would be "green" again, like it is in GPLRACER.

Well well, I wonder if anyting good will come out of this discussion or if we just scare everybody off. I mean after all, I do agree that carrots, or positive sugestions are the best way to deal with things.

Göran

I don't see why it would scare off anyone. The discussion is in good faith, with the purpose of improving the penalty system and rules, and thus improve the overall quality of the racing in the league.

The intention of the discussion is two fold - first, to fill-in the gap between light and severe rules which we obviously have after looking at the list of available penalties. and second, to tweak the way of applying yellow cards and connecting them to penalties, instead of relying on a subjective manner in which they're handed out. I'm not saying you or the other mods are not doing the right thing, Tim, but it still remains subjective and inconsistent, and I can assure you some drivers don't like it, but they just don't dare speak about it in public.

And lastly, you can see how flawled the lost places penalties would become if we introduce the minimum distance covered rule for points scoring. As Goran says, other leagues (not just GPLRACER, but many others, such as oAo) use penalties such as starting from the back or stop/go at next races. It has never ever detered people from racing or made someone quit, because those are not type of penalties you apply to innocent drivers or drivers who do not cause problems more than once in a couple of races.

It can all be easily tied to the yellow card system, so a driver would know well in advance before each race what penalty they could experience if they do wrong. At the moment, it's all a mist - a driver knows he has yellow cards, but he does not know what penalty to expect next time and thus is willing to take a risk in driving more aggressively.

And I agree with Goran that Yellow cards should last different periods of time. I.e. if you get 1 Yellow card, it could last just 1 or 2 races, and if you drive safely in those races, you lose the yellow points. If you cause an accident in those probation races, you accumulate another Yellow card or two, which could then last longer, and at the same time you suffer the appropriate more severe penalty according to the type of offense and current yellow points.

Anyway, I hope all those things are taken into consideration and not just disregarded.

Hristo your talking bo....lets be polite and say you could learn from Goran's attitude and Vos your the voice of reason.



Its not that I think/believe starting from the back of the grid or a S&G  ia severe penalty but I have seen the damage that faster drivers making up places can do (I have even been at fault myself in this respect in the Privateers). I actually like this sanction Goran, but am merely pointing out the potential consequences. No point penalising someone for ruining someones previuous race only for them to be tempted to do it again.

Ronnie, you're the one who has a problem with me and in EVERY single discussion you switch to personal comments and attacks at some point, usually at the moment where you disregard all the facts I mention to support my claims and to dispute yours, most likely because you can't do the same? It makes you sound even less convincing afterwards, so spare me the lectures on how to behave, lol. Either oppose the facts I provide or don't say a thing. Saying things like "you're wrong" without explaining why and where is so childish.


They won't be tempted to do it again, because the next penalty in line for them is a much more severe one, such as one race ban or more. And even before that, when they know they would be penalized with a start from the back penalty or something, they would be foolish to drive as aggressively and that in itself would make it much less likely to happen.

Hristo, I have explained myself fully, I could carry on explaining myself, but you would always find fault. As for getting personal, I apologise if I said anything out of turn.

But I would ask you to read just some of your responses below and be honest with yourself. They are incredibly patronising at best. If I had made them I would certainly be apologising to you for them, but thats just me. Our difference of opinion, and thats all it is, is not helping further the argument one way or another and so for me is over. I certainly don't have a problem with you and I hope that sentiment is reciprocated.

Sorry but just to pick up on that, not if you are advocating clearing off the yellow/penalties on a frequent basis. They can merely rollover indefinately on this basis as there would be no accumulated penalties to use in justifying a ban. Noted the idea would be to make the time periods last longer but that would surely just put a ban situation on an infinate horizon and I didn't think that is what you were trying to achieve?

It could be made to work. Example:

1 Yellow points - 2 races probation period. If you get more yellow points during that period, the period is extended for cover more races, as follows.
2 Yellow points - 3 races probation, counting from the accumulation of the most recent yellow point
3 Yellow points - 6 race probation, counting again from the time of accumulating the most recent yellow point.

The idea is that you don't go into a very long probation for a minor offense or a first offense, such as the ones where you get a warning or a lost place / time penalty, but if you continuously cause accidents you gather more yellow points and the period is automatically increased.

IMO it's better than having a fixed period for yellow points, regardless of how many you have. It's like putting on probation drivers for both minor and major offenses, which seems a bit unfair.

Anyway, I DO support that you as admin and the division moderators as well intervene on a subjective basis to some extent, because sticking blindly to rules never leads to anything good, but I think we'll benefit of filling in some gaps and smoothing out the steps in penalties, and it would also make it easier for the moderation process itself.

@Ronnie - I did read everything you say and because it's a discussion, I'm entitled to mention any faults I see in your statements, supporting that with facts and examples. It's just that at some point you don't reply in the same way, but just say "you're wrong" or focus on my behaviour, which has nothing to do with the discussion. I'm fine with people having different opinions, but if you're going to enter a discussion and try to convince someone about your point of view, it has to be done with arguments. Otherwise we'll just be stating our views and not interact or discuss anything, and I don't think that would ever lead to any conclusions.

As you say Hristo you are fully entitled to your opinions as I am to mine. My comments are crystal clear to all but you. More worrying than your refusal to accept any opinion or argument unless it meets your stringent criteria for clarity is your inability to see when YOU have overstepped the mark with your condescending patronising attitude. I offered you an olive branch to end this spat and move on . Can you really not bring yourself to accept it and move on.

Who told you we're simply stating opinions? That's not my understanding of a discussion. We can all state opinions without any interaction, but where would that lead? The aim is to convince others that what you think about the topic is better justified than what we have at the moment or what others think, otherwise why bother mention it? It's not about how you FEEL about it, but how it actually is or the potential it represents.

If I see flaws in your way of thinking or in your proposed ideas, and I can provide facts that support my claims, how exactly does that bother you? Either disprove in return or don't get involved. It has nothing to do with opinions, it's about looking at things objectively, by using your observations and experience yet separating yourself from the equation.

So now its not even enough to have an opinion/comment and/or an explanation of that opinion/comment for this forum. No, you even want to set the criteria for for the whole discussion. Well these were your own words

It seems you're just paying too much attention to the wording....Just try to see beyond that and what is actually being meant by it.

No, in my opinion .....

If a forum isn't meant for discussing things, whether good or bad, I don't know what it is for.

Please stop and listen to yourself. Here is just a sample of of your responses to different drivers who committed the cardinal sin of expressing an opinion/comment on this discussion forum site. In each case you refuse to accept their right to a point of view and/or explanation of their point of view.

You're totally entitled to your opinion, but if it goes against mine without proper explanation then it's just empty words.

You and others keep saying it, but you don't explain yourselves at all.

That's your opinion. I don't care if it's for money or not. If you really believe money is the main motivation for real racing drivers, then you're totally wrong. Fun is such a vague term that it loses any meaning.

But since we're discussing things, we won't come to any agreement if each of us insist on what they think is right, so it usually takes a lot of posts (and time) to sort things out.

You make no sense.

when someone speaks about things that involve me without being objective, I can't keep silent.

It has nothing to do with intimidation because I have no reason to intimidate. If someone feels intimidated then that's their own problem. And no, I'm not worried

Well you still fail to UNDERSTAND the meaning of my thinking and my words then.

You've obviously not been following the discussion carefully if you assumed that by "flawed logic and limited understanding" I was aiming at people (or someone in particular) or at the rules as a whole! Why do you force me to repeat myself if you're not going to bother reading it?

I explain to you what I meant and which you obviously misunderstood, and instead of admitting you assumed wrong and try to think on what I actually said, you try to make me look as the one who has a problem.

Please please before replying. First delete your firstdraft of your reply, take a deep breath and just admit that possibly, just possibly, all these other drivers might just be entitled to have their say regardless of whether you disagree with them and/or are not satisfied with their explanations.

Who do you think you're talking to, Ronnie, your son? Take a deep breathe? What makes you think I'm emotionally burdened when I'm writing my replies? Seriously, get a clue already and stop bothering me with lectures on how to behave, act, write, or how to participate in a forum discussion!

Either stick to what we're discussing or don't say a thing. My interest lies in solving the problems me and a couple of other people have brought up to the attention of the league, not in engaging in pointless personal scrap with someone who claims they're entitled to an opinion, yet jumps at the first opportunity to argue about someone else's, followed by a preach on how they should not do the same in return. You begin with it in the same manner, which is fine, but then you choose to bail out of it for whatever reason, make bold claims without any provided explanation, and then begin to preach?

Next time, before you get to this last stage and when you tell me I'm wrong or that you disagree with anything I say, try to EXPLAIN where, why and how you think I'm wrong about anything I've said. I see none of that, at all. In this particular case, all you keep saying all this time is how certain penalties would deter people from racing, and all of it is based on your assumptions. In all the leagues I've raced, I haven't seen a single person ever being detered by such penalties, so your claims are just your own subjective prejudical thoughts and nothing more. Show me proof that you're right, show me proof that I'm not, then we speak again, and spare me all that crap which you try to bring up in every single thread we engage in a discussion.

You're crawling over expressions such as "in my opinion", but there's a difference between opinions based on facts and opinions based on nothing but assumptions. Maybe it's just you who feel threatened of facing such potential penalties because you see yourself causing too many accidents? It begins to seem that way, lol.

P.S. I always reread and correct what I write before posting, or shortly after posting, so rest assured it's a consciouss effort of what I really mean.  ;)

Ther really is no hope for you Hristo. You are the rear end of the centipede, of that there is no doubt.

Lol, you just did it again, Ronnie. You're so unable to argue and to discuss something, that you always turn to personal attacks. Pathetic. Keep at it, it obviously makes you feel better.

got to say I'm getting a bit lost with this one  ::)


Is it match point Hristo or deuce  :wetfish:


 ;D ;D ;D

Game over ::)