SimRacing.org.uk

The second round of the Spec Race Challenge stays in England with a trip to Goodwood. This is one of those rare tracks that is still in use today virtually unchanged from the 1960’s & well worth a visit to one of the revival festivals. It has a nice flow with sweeping corners and a chicane on to the pit straight. Lap times will be in the low 1.20’s in the 65cars. The track can be downloaded here goodwood (http://gplea.rscsites.org/)

There will be two Intermediate Short Races, back to back on the same track. For each event there are two chassis available and you should drive both cars - anyone daft enough to use the same car will be disqualified for Race 2. Start with whichever chassis you like. We stick with the 65 Mod & your choice of chariot is the Brabham BT7 v the Honda.

There is no handicapping all participants will run in one division. In Hristo’s absence Evil took a double win in Round 1 to lead the championship from Natan & Goran. Due to a distinct lack of Wazza’s the team championship is led by Black Night Racing.

Unlimited resets are allowed but every Shift R must be followed by a compulsory Stop & Go in your Pit Box (or close to it). If you Reset on the last lap a 30 second time penalty will be awarded.
Incidents should be reported in the usual way.
In line with other divisions the races will be subject to full moderation on lap one.

Also please note that qualifying runs are limited to 12 minutes.
Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL_T7_2
IP address = 62.149.202.168
Race date = Friday 13-05-2011
Time = 21:00 UK time (21:00 GMT)
Track = Goodwood
Race length = Intermediate Short
Variant = 1965
Chassis = BT7 & Honda
Damage Model = Intermediate
Qualifying time = 12 minutes

I would reconsider going to Goodwood unless there's a fix out there that I'm not aware of. It could get very cold down there...

you sound like H ... usually goodwood is fine

Ahem, show me one track I mentioned of being prone to screen freeze which works fine... And I also do recall some freezes at Goodwood, though not in every race there.

I've done two races here with the T league and another with the GPLRacer league and they were all cut short because of freezes. But it could be my luck, or rather lack thereof :) .

I've run two UKGPL events at Goodwood ~ a Spec Race & a fun race. To the best of my knowledge there were no particular problems on either occasion.
If it all goes wrong then its down to me but I don't think the risk is unduly high.

Hoping to make this. Goodwood was the track for my first ever online race - lasted two corners. Had never used Pro before so I was surprised when I couldn't Shift-R. Hope to do a bit better this time.

Have voted...

Having much respect for the 67s, think is a good choice to take part in the 65s to learn the business.
Today tested myself in the BREASTS race with fresh installed track and a setup of the track database.
With a car I ve never driven before on a new track.

Hope to have lots of fun in this series.

Axel

Working tonight (Friday) but should be home in plenty of time for the races. If I get held up I'll join at least the second event.........though I don't  envisage any problems.
Geoff

Race 1. Less said the better and I don't mean the disco. I have just not found the time to do any practice lately and, at my stage in the game, I need practice.
Well done for holding the helm Bill - I know it's not easy when it all goes belly up and you have a gaggle (or should that be angry tribe :taz:) of racers wanting to burn rubber. You have to make snap decisions or go off and have a nervous breakdown.

Race 2. Much more fun. Well apart from qually; when Bill said free chassis at Monza I thought aye aye I have a set up. Unfortunately the gears were squiffy so missed qually to get a new gearset.
A great battle with Axel until I dithered at Para and lost it. Great racing is what it's all about so it was a fun one...

Congrats to winners and finishers.

The other way round for me. Got myself a 1:23 at Goodwood in practice before the race which is a quantum leap for me. Could only get a 1:27 in Qually but nonetheless kept it on the road and avoided trouble, even passing a stricken Vos at one point... found myself in fifth due largely to the quality of my internet connection but was driving steadily for a finish. Geoff was miles behind and I just needed to be... what the hell, prib says -10 yards!!! ARRRGGGHHH! 3 laps to go, speed up. Foot down and drive defensive. Took some strange lines which Bill might want to investigate but this was not weaving. This was basic lack of control... Geoff made my life incredibly difficult and could have played dirty. Luckily for me he is a gent on and off track and he didn't dump me off. I was all over the place. Clive would be proud. I am going to watch the replay through my fingers, I think but nonetheless my best ever result and not because of the discos - because I kept it on the black stuff under severe pressure. Great battle and thanks for giving me the room to make my mistakes without killing us both.

Race 2 - no setup so to speak and I can't do one in twelve mins so I was pretty slow - 1:40 or so. Wow. I've out qualified Nigel... Get into the race and although I gain a few places through attrition I slowly get gobbled up. Mistake at Para after Geoff has zoomed by loses me a wheel and I think. Ah well that's that. Wait a mo. This isn't the Historics. I can Shift-R. I'm still leading Nigel - he must have had a problem or two - I can beat him here... I'm 35 secs up and I put in a PB - wahey - oh - he's taken three seconds off me. Drive steady, drive steady.

There's the flag. I've done it. Phew.

Then the deflation. Nigel is driving a BT7... He didn't read the free chassis bit in chat. Hmm  I'm celebrating just squeaking past the milk float. He mentions his lap 1 stop n go. AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH. I forgot to Stop n Go. DQ. Bugger. I still haven't beaten him :( (Not that I'm obsessed or anything). Fun though. First time in 65's at Monza and to be honest it is a bit tedious when you are at my level. The only way I can pass is when somebody makes a mistake.

Ah well. I have a fifth to my name and I REALLY hope Billy doesn't cancel the round.

Final thought. Gosh, H is fast.

A painful evening for me...

Race 1 was going well and I was about to try a pass on Ronnie at the end of the Lavant "straight" when... aaarrrggghhhhh!!!! Screen Freeze!!!  Seemingly my now pilot-less car smashed into Ronnie spoiling his race too :(

Race 2 was looking like it was going to be fun. I havent a setup for any 65 at monza so I took my BRMs Donnington setup and blasted round in... errm 1:40. A few tenths ahead of Badblood and a few tenths  behind Skymole! So all was set for some fun action when my internet dropped! 

My race stats this season-
Spec Donny BRM - 7th
Spec Donny Fez  - DNF (screen freeze)
GT Teams ST.Jo - DNF (Disco)
Porsche Sebring  - 9th
65s Monaco     -  DNF (crashed due to bad lag)
67s Monaco     - DNF (Disco)
66s Falkenberg - 5th
Spec Goodwooo- DNF (screen Freeze)
Spec Monza     - DNS (Disco)


Not a great start to season 21 :(

On the plus side, my new fibre-optic Broadband goes live on wednesday.. can't wait!
 

First order of business, apologies to Ronnie for tapping you in the rear at Lesmo 1 in the Monza. I had no idea that there was a crash in progress up ahead until I looked at my replay only then did I see Natan on his lid, and everyone slowing to laden wheelbarrow speed. The old 5th-car-in-the-freeway-rearender syndrome. Couldn't slow quick enough to avoid tapping you. Sorry mate. Then Tim cleaned me up from behind and I was very surprised the car kept going without any damage at all.

Race 1 at Goodwood was fun. Qually was average until I squeeked out a 1:22.16 PB in the BT7. The start was rubbish, and I was swamped by everyone and his Auntie... :scared:
Then Axel dropped across my nose in T1 very sideways and looking at the replay, I warped the bejeezus out of 'im. Sadly I came off second best and Bill cleaned me up from behind, tossing me high in the air. I looked down to see Paul flashing thru directly below me.....great vantage point for viewing but highly unrecommended if you are actually racing. Landed upside down and was last when I finally got going. Took a stop and go after remembering I needed to when I saw Bill dash off to the pits, but while concentrating on something else....I put the car into reverse and started backing up the pitlane.....Duh!!! Got out of the pits without further incident or embarrassment and settled down to try to catch.....anybody ;D Went from 10th to 5th after passing Paul the first time....and the dreaded mass disco occurred. Stuffed up the chicane on about lap 10 that let Paul back past and after letting H and Evil thru set about running down the erratic Honda holding down 5th. I let Evil tow me up to Paul, ta mate, and caught him at the chicane with 2 to go.Toyed with the idea of passing him inside on the way in, but wisely left that alone as he ran wide in the following left and would have put us both in the boards. the poor brab just couldn't match the Wazza for straight line speed, which only left the corners to try to nudge by. That was THE widest RA232 I have ever seen......I would have had to use the grass to get a clear shot at a pass. On the last lap into the chicane I hung back a little to try to get a run on him onto the straight, which I managed to do........but the Honda had a little too much grunt for the Brab and it must have been less than a 10th margin at the flag. Well done Paul for keeping it on the island, if I'd have done that maybe you wouldn't have caught me. Congratulations to H, Clive and I think Sam for populating the white steps with numbers on them. ;D

Race 2 report later......

I've watched the replay and I am VERY thankful Geoff is better on the brakes than I am. He should definitely have had me. Thank you Honda power...

Whilst on Goodwood I need to apologise to Vos as I caught him on Lap 1. He braked much earlier than I anticipated and I took a leaf out of the blito book by mashing into the back of him (again). Sorry boss.

As an aside, when the car starts to pull sideways under braking (not trail braking, just losing attitude) do you release the brakes; release the throttle; try and power out of it or what? Advice appreciated.

Sorry can't make comments to race 1, have no replay...
After some race laps had a freeze!
Quali was ok for new car and track, unfortunatly started with the slower BT7...

Race 2 was fun for having nice fights.
But made wrong car choice, should have taken a Ferrari...
Lotus couldnt keep the pace of those Hondas  >:(
But with other Loti I was compatible.
Had great fun fighting with Tim who kept in touch by using my slipstream until he made a mistake entering Parabolica...

Is there a replay for race 1 available?

thx
Axel

This is how I would address the problem, I'm sure I know!, others will have different opinions. ::)

Well, what you can do depends on several variables....  lol,  no-one said it would be a simple solution did they?  ;D

Assuming that you do not wish to totally change your setup but simply want to tweak what you have and get a better balance.

You seem to be relating this problem to the 65 Goodwood race, so it might just be that you had overheated one of the left side tyres ( front or rear?) in your struggle to stay ahead of Geoff and had consequently lost grip on that corner just when you needed it most. In which case, most of the suggestions below will make little difference until you change your driving style/setup to prevent/manage the high temps. That would be another topic entirely and open up the whole setup vs driving philosophy/style debate yet again.  lol

1) If your car is pulling sideways whilst you are braking in a straight line. Then, unless there is a huge camber on the road surface, it sounds like you have some very strange geometry in your setup!! suggest you check there first and see if you have some very wild assymetric values/tyre pressures/temps. I have been known to dial in a negative value on a setup when it really should have been a positive........the handling gets very interesting ;)

2)If the front end is running wide as you enter the corner under braking ......

 you are braking too late and/or too heavily and carrying too much speed into the corner.

3) are the front tyres locking/smoking and therefore losing grip and effectively allowing the car to plough straight on?    
  maybe you are still braking too late, but move brake bias rearward a notch or two and see if it helps.
or.......
you are hitting the brakes too hard and need to "feel" the limit of adhesion as you smooothly apply the brakes and just as importantly ease off the brakes at the transition fron braking to accelerating at the apex. A locked wheel in GPL models real life, and will lose its braking efficiency so , smoking tyres are not good. Fortunately we do not get the "flat spot" that results in RL racing .
or
your suspension is bottoming out on the front end, so raise the front spring rates/ possibly raise front bump setting a notch/ reduce rear rebound a notch / play with bump rubbers ( personally I have never found the rubbers to make much difference and set them at minimum)/ raise ride height a fraction.

4) If 3) fits the description, try keeping a small amount of throttle applied to balance the car and prevent the front brakes locking up quite so easily.

5) maybe your diff setup is such that the coast side  xx/85 is too high, try a xx/60 that will allow the rear end to rotate around the chassis more easily under braking,  so that you can get the nose pointing in the right direction.

6) If it is the rear wheels that are getting out of shape, then maybe you have the brake balance set too far to the rear, or the diff is set too low on the coast side  xx/45 might be better as xx/60.

7) wait a few hours and read the 27 alternative solutions that will be offered

8 ignore all of this and try random adjustments to your setup until you find one that works  ;D

With all things "handling" related in GPL, everything is dependent upon something else IMHO.
YOUR setup has to work with YOUR driving style and each will evolve over time as it has with all drivers in GPL. I'm sure that as you are a mathematician you could ( if you were totally bored and had just bought a shiny new bright orange P.V.C anorak ) work out the number of possible different setups for any chassis within GPL.

If Hristo gave you his setup I know that you will not be able to match his times, because you do not drive like he does. I have tried Hristo's setups and find that although I can sort of drive them ( some supposedly "fast" setups such as Steve Cloyd's I find impossible!!), I have to play around with his settings to make them conform to my expectations of handling and I still do not post the same lap times.

It is this completely subjective area of setups that makes GPL so much of a challenge for me and why very few people ever find the perfect solution?

As for the races...

Race 1 at Goodwood was great fun. I always enjoy racing at Goodwood and it is a shame that it has the "disco-bug" infection. I was a little miffed that we were unable to run the second race because I knew that I would be able to run 1:19's/1:18's in the Honda and maybe give Hristo some cause to sweat for his win  ;D
So, I took the BT7 for race 1 and was hoping for some close racing. I was unable to set a "perfect" qually lap simply through a mixture of traffic ( nobody's fault, just cars in the wrong place for me) and stupid mistakes. So I started on the 3rd  row.
Hristo was on pole and I thought that the start flag would be the last time that I would be seeing his exhausts!! After the chaos of lap 1 where cars ahead seemed to be in competition to perform the perfect road block complete with smoking tyres at every opportunity I was positive that I would be lucky to catch even a glimpse of a podium place.

By some miracle, as we started lap 2, I was in 2rd place I think, not quite sure how that happened, but it must have been as a result of the various spins on lap 1. Hristo was out of sight and long gone so I concentrated on pushing as hard as I could to build myself a cushion back to the chasing bunch behind. With Ronnie, Fulvio and Goran on my tail I wanted as much breathing space as I could get!!

After a couple of laps I had squeezed away from the car behind, probably because they were holding each other up, but was not closing on Hristo who was somewhere up ahead. Then I rounded Woodcote to see yet another road block, but the driver was quickly reversing off the track. I assumed that it might have been a backmarker being very good and just clearing the way for me. When I crossed the S/F line I realised that it must have been Hristo and I was now in the lead!! That was the good news. The bad news was that there were still about 8 laps to go and Hristo had recovered and was only a couple of seconds behind!!  :-\

I managed to keep him there for about 4-5 laps until I mad a mistake at Madgewicks that slowed my exit speed and Hristo was up the inside. I intended to allow Hrsito through on the run towards st Mary's and slip in behind him, but I timed my move wrong ( or Hristo was slower than normal in making his pass!!  ::) ;D ) and I clipped the back of his car spinning us both out. Fortunately neither of us suffered damage and we were far enough ahead of 3rd place to rejoin with H in 1st and myself in 2nd. After that it was a chase to the flag but I needed H to make a small mistake so that I could attack him...he didn't!!  :-[ so  a Waza 1-2.
Monza was great fun in the Honda despite getting a poor qually again and the battle with Fulvuio, Goran and myself was most enjoyable. Not sure how Billy will sort the races but well done for hearding the cats to Monza for that race at such short notice.  ;D

Of course, nobody can simply copy over a setup and expect it to work perfectly, you have to adapt it to your own preferences. That's why I always say that you should tweak my setups when you use them, not just try them as they are and say you can't handle them. There are parameters which are completely down to driving style - steering ratio, brake bias, toe, differential/clutches and anti-roll bars. The rest can be left untouched as to preserve the geometry and balance of the car, because I believe I aim to make balanced setups most of the time, neither oversteering or understeering. And of course, it's important to keep in mind that steering the car with the throttle has to take priority over using the steering wheel.

And I just want to correct Evil a bit about locked wheels under braking - a locked wheel does not lose brake efficiency, in fact it produces maximum braking effort and thus provides the shortest possible braking distance. The problem comes from locking just 1 or 2 wheels, which creates imbalance in the whole car, plus a locked wheel kills all lateral grip. Since we can't lock all 4 wheels at once due to weight transfer, locking is better avoided, but only so you have better control over the car's direction.

As for my races, race 1 was so so, as I made a couple of mistakes that could've cost me the race, but fortunately they resulted in simple spins and I could recover rather quickly. Evil was very fast and once he took over the lead after my 2nd off, it took a couple of laps to pressure him in. I had a run on him out of T1 and kept to the inside over the negative camber sweeper, but we made contact and that spun us both into the grass, but we managed to continue unharmed (or so it seemed).

Race 2 at Monza was interesting, though compromised by a certain driver's usual over-aggressive driving in both qualifying and race, but luckily for me I escaped any bad consequences and could engage in a battle with Sam, whose BRM was extremely quick on the straight line and in Curva Grande.

Despite my best effort to shake him off my tail, he would always catch up within half a lap or so, and even when due to some backmarkers he lost a lot of ground, it took only a lap to recover it and threaten me for the win. Seemingly I wouldn't have been able to hold him off until the line after he repeatedly proved so in a couple of runs in previous laps, and now we were on the last lap going side by side towards the Parabolica braking zone.

I dared brake as late as possible and managed to get ahead just before the turn-in point, so I cut across Sam's BRM (but there wasn't any risk I believe) and took a better line going into the corner, while Sam was struggling to cope with carrying higher speed and going wide. I was almost sure that would be enough to keep me ahead until the s/f line, but then he spun under acceleration and secured my position. Very good battle though!

On the topic of freezes and discos, I remain fixed on my opinion that there is something wrong with either server settings, GPL settings/patches or network connection/settings, because we obviously witness tracks, which were fine in the past or at least relatively stable, causing us a lot of grief these days.

I wonder if there is anything affected by using coloured or patterned tyres?
Do people with warping connections affect the server or clients?

Great fun those races. Race one was interesting to say the least. Despite my best efforts of making life hell for others by spinning in front of them repeatedly, only Steve was really affected on the first lap. A shame I did that as he was going so strongly in qualifying  :-[. The rest of the race was me trying to pass other cars and it was enjoyable fighting my way through the field. After the mass disco, I found myself in a fortunate 3rd by race's end, despite going off on numerous occasions.

Race two was much better, I took the BRM given the free car choice, given its superb grunt on a straight line, and enjoyed a race long battle with H. Thanks to the BRM's superior top speed aided with a slipstream, I could just about keep up with H. However, passing him was a different matter as he was simply phenomenal on the brakes. No matter how far I got along side, H would always beat me to the corner under braking. I'm still not sure how you slow the car like that without a parachute H  ;). Because of that, I began to experiment and the only way I could really pass was into the Curva Grande and slow H through the Lesmos, though I can assure you that I was going as quickly as I could through those sequence of corners!  ::)

I lost a little time in the traffic late in the race, but managed to catch H up on the last lap with hope of slipstreaming him onto the start-finish straight. That plan worked beautifully, until I realised I look too much speed into the Parabolica with the car on the edge of adhesion. When I put the power down as I normally did, the car's rear stepped out and that was that. H took a fine win but nevertheless I was happy with 2nd. Hopefully a win will come in due time  :).

Thanks for the advice guys. I was finding it VERY hard to keep it in a straight line at Woodcote when braking hard from maximum speed. It got very twitchy but I think I was just braking too hard too late. Interestingly I looked at the replay of the last few laps and Geoff is arrow straight up the course. I am all over the place but I would have sworn that I was nice and smooth.

My own take on the Disco's is that the vast increase in speeds over the internet may 'overload' the server. It is interesting to note that at the point of the mass disco the two leaders were having a tangle. Co-incidence? Probably but I would like to look at some more historical replys to see.

Well, dissapointing really... last here, last there... no cars at the horizon... guess i should work on my consistency or something.

And im not picking honda for 65s anymore! Blowed 2 engines without too much effort.... Atleast i didnt make any trouble... this time... I think.

Where to train my consistency btw? AI allways rearends me (or I rearend them) cause it seems they brake very late and unnaturaly fast. I need to keep a distance of few miles to be safe... Online races are few and far between, screenfreezes, constant mod changing and unknown tracks doesnt help too much either... Idk... that probably is offtopic, so whatever.

I told you before, sky - what you need is a wheel! You can't hope to progress much with your current controller...

As for consistency, just run on your own in offline practice, without AI. Put up fuel for 20-30 laps and run. Any track will do really.

Sky,

There is no substitute for practice although occasionally running with the AI can give you some practice at listening for other runners and watching your mirrors but the AI is not natural. Best thing is get your head down on a mixed track (so not Monza not Monaco). Mexico is a challenge and Rouen presents some challenges but H is dead on - get a wheel. They are not too expensive (£30 uk?) and make a VAST difference. You will be masses faster and gain a lot of control. In particular the ability to brake and throttle at the same time. Not that I can do it...

Keep at it. As long as it is fun, it is worth it...

BTW Monaco and Monza are worth practising it is just you don't learn as much about how the car behaves as quickly. Interestingly Goodwood for me was a real challenge and when I felt 'ooh that was scruffy' I put in a PB by over two seconds. Couldn't repeat it though :(

Chaps,
We've had a bit of a stewards enquiry on this one. Essentially what I'm looking at is a mass disco at 12 minutes (lap 7 or 8) when we lost 7 out of 13 drivers (two having retired beforehand). As per UKGPL guidelines the options are:
Red Flag the event
Reconstruct the race & award positons prior to the disconnect.

After careful consideration I feel the most appropriate solution is to Red Flag the event. The Goodwood race & the following Monza race will therefore be voided.

I did run this in the knowledge that Goodwood does have a history of problems. UKGPL have, however, raced here before without problems - all I can do is offer my apologies.

We will arrange an re-run at a safer track - probably to be slotted in at the end of the season.

I know this won't please everyone but trust you will understand.

6 retired on that lap, not 7. And I've not checked whether all 6 retired at the same moment and by the same cause. Considering 17 took the green flag, that's only about 1/3rd of all drivers... I don't see a reason for a rerun. Also, what has the Monza race to do with race 1 and why should it be voided?

 Thanks for the tips... il try to run some tracks just lapping with no errors. And wheel tips will be ignored, sorry... I believe i can get negative with mouse and ill think later... keyboarders go negative, mouse is so much better being analogue. And my rank at 67's is already +67... lets see if you can catch me with your wheel, Paul!   :D

  Is there no topic really for these general chats?


  And why would we rerun? There were still finishers... atleast 6-7... rest for example suffered unexpected mechanical failure due to extra metane in fuel or something  ;D And everyone finished monza.

You can use the Grand Prix Legends section of the main forum I guess. Here:

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?board=52.0

As for mouse, sure, I suppose it's better than keyboard, but then you need to at least develop your own setups which suit your way of controlling the car, just like keyboard players have much different setups to make it possible to do quicker times. Is mouse treated the same way as a wheel/joystick by GPL or as a keyboard? Because with keyboard you can't turn off throttle and brake aids, even if they're unchecked in the options, and that makes controlling the car a lot more limited.

Anyway, I don't see why you have to go negative with keyboard/mouse before you get a wheel. Wheel requires a different driving style, different habits, so you'll basically start from scratch, regardless how quick you become with a mouse. I used to drive with a joystick before and it didn't help much once I switched to a wheel.

Not sure where you got your numbers H. 15 drivers started at Goodwood. Nigel retired at 07:50 after his engine blew. Vos retired at 10:47 on lap 7 after he blew his top ;) leaving thirteen runners. Seven of the remaining runners then disconnected simultaneously at around 12:02. That left 6 runners. That means that more then 50% of the remaining field were involuntarily disconnected.

The options open under the rules were to take the result at the point of disconnect or Red Flag the event. Since Monza was not the reverse Spec race (for obvious reasons) I fully support Billy's decision to hold a new event. If you are cross at losing the win, I'm spitting feathers at losing my best ever finish. I also wasted two hours fully modding the event!

Cheeky bugger! And no, I probably can't catch you - I will probably never put enough time into the 'green hell'. Hate the place...

The re-run is due to exceptional conditions. More than half the field disconnecting at the same time means the race is just too artificial.

You, Billy, Cookie, Jason, Fulvio, Goran and Steve all disconnected at the same time. And for good measure Clive and H were having a tangle at the exact same time :D

GPL Replay Analyser export - shows both the number of starters and the retirements lap by lap. 6 retired in a single lap.

Lap 8:
Paul Whitfield 65 overtakes Billy Nobrakes.
Paul Whitfield 65 overtakes Axel Cookie.
Paul Whitfield 65 overtakes Fulvio Policardi_65.
Paul Whitfield 65 overtakes Steve Bird65.
Paul Whitfield 65 overtakes Jason Blito.
Paul Whitfield 65 overtakes Göran Jonsson65.
Paul Whitfield 65 is in position 6 at the end of the lap.
Geoff Heard65 overtakes Billy Nobrakes.
Geoff Heard65 overtakes Axel Cookie.
Geoff Heard65 overtakes Fulvio Policardi_65.
Geoff Heard65 overtakes Steve Bird65.
Geoff Heard65 overtakes Jason Blito.
Geoff Heard65 overtakes Göran Jonsson65.
Geoff Heard65 is in position 5 at the end of the lap.
Ronnie Peterson overtakes Göran Jonsson65.
Ronnie Peterson is in position 4 at the end of the lap.
Göran Jonsson65 retires the BrabhamBT7.
Billy Nobrakes retires the BrabhamBT7.
Steve Bird65 retires the Honda.
Jason Blito retires the Honda.
Axel Cookie retires the BrabhamBT7.
Fulvio Policardi_65 retires the BrabhamBT7.

and

RACE RESULTS (After 13 laps)

Pos No Driver                          Team     Nat Laps   Race Time       Diff
 1  12 Hristo Itchov65                 Brab BT7 JPN   13  17m49.934s            
 2   1 65 evilclive                    Brab BT7 GBR   13  17m57.673s    07.739s
 3  10 Sam Blood                       Brab BT7 GBR   13  18m24.759s    34.825s
 4  15 Ronnie Peterson                 Brab BT7 ITA   13  18m29.586s    39.652s
 5  18 Paul Whitfield 65               Honda    GBR   12  18m09.175s   1 lap(s)
 6  17 Geoff Heard65                   Brab BT7 AUS   12  18m09.271s   1 lap(s)
 7  14 Göran Jonsson65                 Brab BT7 SWE    7  10m00.019s   6 lap(s)
 8  21 Jason Blito                     Honda    GBR    7  10m02.307s   6 lap(s)
 9  11 Steve Bird65                    Honda    GBR    7  10m03.905s   6 lap(s)
10   2 Fulvio Policardi_65             Brab BT7 ITA    7  10m06.009s   6 lap(s)
11   6 Axel Cookie                     Brab BT7 GER    7  10m12.155s   6 lap(s)
12   7 Billy Nobrakes                  Brab BT7 GBR    7  10m32.744s   6 lap(s)
13   8 Vlad Vosblod                    Brab BT7 GBR    6   9m22.441s   7 lap(s)
14   5 Skymole 2173 -m65               Brab BT7 JPN    6  10m09.919s   7 lap(s)
15   9 nigel smith65                   Honda    GBR    4   5m46.692s   9 lap(s)
16  22 Ray Cattini65                   Brab BT7 ITA    0 DidNotStart  13 lap(s)
17   4 Bernie65 Darwin                 Brab BT7 GBR    0 DidNotStart  13 lap(s)
18  19 2 UKGPL_T7                      Brab BT7 ITA    0 DidNotStart  13 lap(s) \

Not to mention you're looking at it wrongly. You shouldn't take the percentage of retirements vs. the number of running drivers at that moment, but the total number of participants, otherwise it makes no sense at all. If we go along with what you said, in the same sense we can have 2 running near the end and if 1 of them retires, consider it 50% and ask for a rerun...  ::) But anyway, 17 started according to my RA export, not 13.

Treats it like regular joystick, no aids forced.


Just for the heck of it!  ;D I dont have the space, the money, the conditions and im no proffesional gamer, have a whole lot more stuff to do, books, work, paintings, pets, family, cigarets, and the mouse is freaking comfortable! And im the only mouse driver around here...  ;)


See? And i haven't even driven a car in my life...

Ray and Ronnie are one and the same Hristo so seventeen starters but like you I think thats more than enough.

Oh and Sky, get a wheel, they are cheaper than a good mouse and most certainly not the sign of a professional gamer but someone who wants to control gpl cars.

I know what the RA says but in a situation where the server has lost count it is hardly impeccable. I can assure you Bernie wasn't there and Ray is Ronnie so there were 15 starters. Skymole also disconnected on lap 7 so there were 7 lost. The rules actually say 'in the event of a mass disconnection'. I would say that 7 out of 13 remaining meets that criteria. The 50% rule only applies to lap 1 and allows for red flagging the race there and then.

I suppose there is a certain logic, to a mouse operating driver, having a computer generated name.  One should also consider the RAM factor.

I don't want to wade in but LOL. At the end of the day the Division Mod has to make a decision and I fully support Bill. Whatever you do in a situation like this won't please everyone, especially those that slogged it out to the end and were expecting their just desserts.

However just to clear things up the 'guidelines', and I say guidelines, have this (https://www.ukgpl.com/index.php/rules/etiquette);

I would say red flagging does not imply the race is immediately stopped on the spot. It's a mute point anyway unless you consider a red flag situation to be separate entity from a mass disconnection, and if you do the whole 50% issue goes out of the window.
Also the reference to lap one is onerous; I believe it should apply to the whole race - if it was only lap one the additional wording above re reconstruction would not be necessary, as there would be no preceding lap. The intent was to use this guideline in any situation of a mass disco.

Now we can split hairs (there were 15 starters, DNS' can't count, especially as one was already driving under a different name) and 6 were dropped at 12m02s out of 12 who were running at that time. I agree, whether Sky disco'd or not, he can't be a part of a 'mass' as that implies it was at the same time. There is nothing that actually says 'half the drivers WHO started' it just says half the drivers, and perhaps that needs clarifying, but this is a hopefully rare occurrence. I also agree that we can't be ridiculous about it and have 1 driver out of 2 left dropping and calling for a re-run, common sense should apply. I think we need to follow the spirit of the guideline using the good faith in which it was written.

So, with a guideline that maybe needs some attention in hindsight, it becomes the responsibility of the moderator to intepret the situation. Bill was in a difficult situation, good on him for at least ensuring we got some racing rather then cancelling a second event, and he has had to make a difficult call here. As so many fell down at that the same moment I personally think giving everyone a second chance is the right one.

Just to be clear. Sky literally disappears from the server replay at 12:03

The reason he does not appear in H's selection of the report is that he was still on lap 7 at that point.

Ahh OK that makes 7 then

Now let's wait a minute - even if Bernie didn't start he obviously must've run in qualifying, otherwise his name wouldn't be shown in the results. Do the rules specify that we only count those who actually made the start? And what's with insisting there were 7 (seven) retirements when it was obviously 6 (six) ?!?!?! Are you people just trying to justify a rerun or what...  ::) And I WILL butt in, because it's unreasonable what's happening here...


Bollocks... it doesn't matter what lap someone is on, the RA posts ALL retirements counting the lead lap. You may be 20 laps down, you'll still show up as retired on the same lap as all others who did it at that time. In this case it's the 8 lap since the start of the race for the leading car.

And lastly, even if you enforce the re-run, why do we have to re-run race 2 as well? Why did we bother racing Monza at all if this was going to happen? I don't like this constant change of mind and rushed decisions. Sure, you had to decide on the spot whether to run race 2 or not, and you decided that it's going to be a Monza non-spec race. We did it. It ran fine. Why rerun it? And BTW, what if 5 people dropped in the first race. What if 4 dropped? If it's not just about percentage, where do you draw the line? I find it very uncertain and ambiguous...

No he might have joined the server and left...

Sorry mate Sky disco'd at the same point as everyone else.

I won't comment on re-running race 2. I came in to post the rules as Chief Mod and that is it. It's Billy's division and he calls the shots.

As Vos said in his post, Billy had to make the call on what to do and that's not an easy thing. Whatever he chose to do would have pleased some and upset others. Having read everyone's posts so far I think I would have made a different decision but I dare say I would still be getting flak for it!
A more important issue here is the increasing number of problems that we need to track down to their source issues!

I subscribe!
Think we need all our concentration to solve this!

Axel

The difficulty with this is that you need to be tracking the traffic at the point at which the disco occurs. We certainly cannot do this on T7 as it does not belong to us and I don't have a spare packet analyzer hanging around. They are about £40K for a good one. UDP which GPL uses (User Datagram Protocol) is inherently insecure and TCP/IP traffic on the internet is not guaranteed. If we were running on a LAN I could almost guarantee that we would not have disco's.

All we can do is analyze, after the fact, any disco's we have had. I, for instance, almost never disco, but have done so twice at Adelaide, which is not thought to be dodgy. That points, perhaps, to the latency of the indivisual users connection and thus their own sensitivity to fluctuating conditions affecting the server. The internet, as a shared medium, is not entirely ideal for online connections unless error correction is built in. UDP expressly does NOT have that.

I will start looking at the last few races that we have had mass discos simultaneously and see if I can find a pattern.

I understand all that Paul, and agree about the difficulty of tracking individual errors.
Just one question, have we noticed more problems on any given server?

Why I will start looking...

I think Jason is quite correct in saying that we need to identify ( if possible) why we appear to be suffering more discos than we have in the past, because it is the disco problem that it as the root of this discussion...without discos there would be no dispute here.

If Paul and anyone else who has the necessary knowledge and understanding of ho this "should" work can show where the problem lies, then maybe we can find a way to reduce or remove the problem.

I think it would be a relatively simple and worthwhile move to compare the same circuits/disco ratios on different servers over the last few seasons, as there have been comments that we are suffering discos on tracks that were previously considered "safe".....so is there a commom denominator?

Is it always the same drivers  ( or group of drivers?) that are disco'd? or is it completely random?

Are there any unaffected drivers?   Personally, I rarely suffer a disco and in fact cannot recall more than 1 or maybe 2 over the last few seasons, but maybe my memory is being kind to me?

I ask this question as a total dunce as far as the technology involved is concerned, but with the apparent ever present threat of cyber attack ( virus's etc) is there a possibility that although our servers are not actually infected, they are "repelling" an attempt to gain access when these disco's occur? much the same as client problems when the dreaded "windows update" decides to kick in mid race?

There have always been discos and black screens in GPL for as far back as I can remember, but mostly that was individuals and rarely multiples as we are getting recently
Some tracks have known trouble spots. Spa has ( had? I am not sure if it has been fixed) an issue as you pass the start of the pits on the 1st lap with about 50% of drivers getting a black screen or disco, but others passing untouched.

I support Billy and he's been doing a great job since he's been running the division, but I don't agree how the aftermath of Race 1 was handled. We were all in chat, many of us gave ideas what could be done, but it appeared to me Billy set his mind on running a different track and never even considered the proposals. Then he quickly decided we should run Monza in non-spec, we all agreed (what else?) and we had a proper race. And now he comes and tells us we have to rerun it... why? And don't tell me it's because Monza was no according to the division rules, because you already knew that when it was decided before Race 2.

And what I still don't understand is how can you claim Sky retired at the same time as the other 6 when RA says something else. Do you mean he visually disappears when you watch the replay? That is hardly an evidence, as replays are often not showing all cars all the time.

As for freezes, the only thing I can think of is going back to unpatched/unmoded GPL and try to have a few test races on these same tracks which cause us problems (but not on tracks which are 100% known to cause freezes). That means no BW patch, original 67s (no 67 patch), no car sound (perhaps), just default GPL with the basic patches (cpu fix, 1.2 patch, d3d rasterizer v1). Otherwise we'll just keep wondering and not coming to any conclusion. We've been doing that for a year now...

 Look, I think we need to clear things up... on this race i had screenfreeze. This is not a disco. The image freezes and theres constant sound loop, you cant get out of game and you have to reboot the computer with the button. I believe others had the same screenfreeze. But, with my previous laptop i had screenfreezes offline, on graphicly intenze tracks, targa especialy; also wery often with GT cars. Therefore i prezume the reazon is overheating or overloading of computer components. With my new laptop, fully sufficent for GPL, i got screenfreezes only online. Now, whether it is server that is stressed and fails to support all the clients, or it just at some point it sends too much data to clients and they fail to cope with it (which actually sounds probable), i dont know, but i believe its not a connection problem, but a hardware problem, caused by something.

I have noticed that GPL takes arful lot of computer resources, altho it doesnt actually uses them, makes almost impossible any program to run sufficiently on the background, unless its set on high priority in the Task Manager, and this might have something to do with it. Im not computer or internet specialist and i might be talking total bullshit, but I think it would be useful to make some spreadsheet with all which had a disco, when they had a disco, their computer specs, server computer specs, connection properties of clients, credit card numbers (jk) and all you can think of.

I mean, tracks are not the problem! Problem is somwhere else and it shows only on certain tracks, tracks themselfs have nothing to do about it. If we locate and fix this problem, we will be able to run any track.

And, as Hristo says, we might try to run some higly problematic track on vroc, which doesnt use the 67 patch (long track patch) which is most recent and a probable reazon for these problems.

Also, we should see if other leagues with other servers/locations/settings/whatever suffer this problem.

And i rebooted directly when i got screenfreeze, probably whitout disconnecting... this might cause the RA confuzion. I dont know how others handle screenfreezes, but all i can do is reboot...

Sky was retired by the server at 12:02 by the server. He was on his personal lap 7. He is shown in the RA retiring on that lap. The RA is relative to the individual driver, not the leader. He WAS part of the mass disconnection.

If anyone does start to compile a database of our problems, just bear in mind that my recent Disco's have been down to the poor performance of my ISP.

I have to disagree with you, some tracks do cause issues - we often refer to the list here (http://srmz.net/index.php?showtopic=4540&st=0).
I think Spa was a rasterizer issue which has been solved with the new V2's. The problem tracks mostly seem to be to do with mismatches in track sections which don't come to light until they are raced online.

The whole issue of whether the screenfreeze/disco situation has got worse lately really needs some research. Just a case of finding the time to go through our past races, will see if I can start to pull something meaningful together.

OK, I observed it more carefully and you're right, but I certainly remember RA working differently in the past. Either I'm just wrong or recent RA updates made a change in how the Lap by Lap report works. Anyway, I'm more interested in why we really need to rerun race 2. :)

There are a two differences regarding tracks and screen freezes (and please say "freeze" when it's a freeze and only say "disco" when you simply disconnect from the server):

1. Tracks which are known for certain to cause freezes - the old Zeltweg, Paul Ricard, etc. (really can't remember track names atm, but there are lists of those in various forums)
2. Tracks which used to work fine in the past by are now causing freezes.

While the first are due to tracks not being build properly (i.e. gaps in the 3d sections), the second are what we should be concerned with, because even if there's something in the tracks which makes them more likely to cause freezes, I don't think they're the main cause.

In comparison to the past when it all ran fine, it could be the new mod patches, new graphics, new sounds, new bandwidth settings, unstable clients affecting the server in some way, server-side hardware and software settings and anything else which is simply different than how we used to run races. That's why I offered we run a couple of test races using just a basic GPL install (at least on the server side) and see if the tracks we had problems with will run fine, then we could start adding patches and mods, and do further tests. Otherwise I don't really see how we can identify the culprit and in any case, I doubt there's just a single cause for these problems.

My disco was ISP related , its crappy at best atm and don't see it improving any as more and more geeks come on line cluttering up the ether and generally hogging all the bandwidth .

which could of course be part (or all) of the reason why we are witnessing more and more mass disco's  ::)

(The wise ones amongst you will, of course, ignore my posturing  , as it's almost certainly complete and utter rubbish )  ::)



'

LOL The wisdom of the older generation... bandwidth issues causing a mass disco is actually not a bad shout

When I mentioned Bandwidth settings I also meant the number of cars drawn in front and behind. That kinda explains why certain people were dropped out as soon as myself and Evil made contact, it's like we were not meant to be drawn from a bigger distance (all those who froze were not close to us). It's worth testing running default none-BW patched gpl, with just 1 car in mirrors and 4 or whatever it is in front. At least I can't think of any other reason why a contact between cars would cause such a thing.

Agreed - its interesting... setting up the test might be a challenge too  :o

Ok gentlemen.
Happy for you to continue this discussion about the general causes of screen freezes & discos.

As far as last Friday (& it was the 13th) was concerned:
Goodwood does have a history - although it has run without problem on several occasions. Paul & Vos have articulated ULGP's rules & what actually happened from around the 12th minute of the race. There is some ambiguity in the rules but my call is to abandon / void this race. Not everyone will agree but you can't please everyone all of the time. If we were dealing with another more proven track, the disco had come later in the race or effected fewer drivers then the decision would have been different. I was one of the disconnected drivers BUT that had no bearing upon my thinking.
 
After Race 1 I had no clear idea on how this would be resolved. There were about 15 drivers in chat all expecting to race - my decision was to run a second race at Monza with no chassis restriction. This was to ensure that nobody would be particularly disadvantage by not knowing the track or having access to a set up. If the Goodwood result stood then Monza would count as the Race 2 result.
Having decided to re-run Race 1 we will find a new date to run the usual back to back Spec Races with 2 cars on the same track. Trying to keep Monza within this format will just distort this.
   

Bernie, I think you're a genius!. If you consider that ISP's are businesses, trying since the GFC to preserve their ridiculously high profit margins. How would they achieve this when money is scarce? Try skimping on the bandwidth they purchase from wholesalers and/or not replacing equipment that is out of date or simply not up to the task of supplying reliable, smooth connectivity to every man and his dog with a computer/iPhone/iPad etc, etc. Who suffers in all this? Why, us the end user, of course. If you watch out at profit reporting time......you will find the corporations haven't much at all....even though they continuously cry poor.......(bugger can't find a smiley for playing worlds smallest violin). And whenever we complain about our crap service, we get told the same old line about how many millions of users are on the service blah, blah, blah. My reply is usually....."well, you should be buying sufficient bandwidth or updating your gateway equipment to service ALL your customers' requirements!!" That usually has them mumbling in their collective beards and even terminating the call as 'abuse'......LOL. Might not be the answer in all cases but I suspect that a heavy investigation into GPL network parameters will likely not turn up too much. Would be nice if we had/could find an ISP willing to support online racers with decent, reliable connections. Ah......pipe dreams.

PS: Anybody know Richard Bransons' email address? He might be open to cornering the market of online racers/gamers. There are more of us than you could really conceive.

Its interesting you say that Geoff. My recent troubles with Orange broadband have been since they changed to the new WBC network from BT. WBC is intended to bring the BT wholesale broadband network up to date, bringing faster download speeds with greater reliability, which sounds great but the system just isn't working. The old system worked just fine, never had an issue with it at all!. Anyhow, thos nice people at Virgin are coming to install fibre-optic broadband in its place tomorow.

Maybe I should not be telling you this right now Jason....................

I have been with Virgin for about 10 years TV, Phone and Broadband and everything has been remarkably trouble free, given my ability to screw things up.

Even when they switched their servers over to enable the higher speeds it all happened without any fuss for me, but...there is always a but isn't there  ::).

Virgin provide a free Anti Virus package with their broadband and it was pretty comprehensive with Spyware etc all together so I have used that for several years until about 3 weeks ago.

When I turned my computer on one day, I got a message advising me that the AV had failed to load because there was a file missing also that the Spyware had failed to load because a file was missing!! OK NP, I will simply delete the whole package and re-download and install....even I can manage that.
So, went through the usual Windows Add/Remove programmes thingy but I get a message advising me that it cannot be deleted because it cannot locate a certain file??!!  hmmmmmmm???
Phone free help line and speak to a very nice geek who eventually agrees that I have a prob. Insists on trying the Add/Remove route only to discover that it does not work. So he directs me to a "nuclear option" delete patch that I download and that is "guaranteed" to remove every trace of the AV......but it doesn't and we are no further forward! It was late so i phone the next day and try again

Same result and the tekkie advises me that someone from "level 2" will call me!!!  oooer!!

wait 48hrs ...no call!

phone helpline again and speak to a very nice female tekkie who persuades me to go through the whole procedure again complete with nuclear option and..................................no difference still cannot delete old AV and because it is still there I cannot reload a new  AV package!!
Then it gets scary because she tells me that "level 2" have advised her that they are sensing me an e-mail with a sp[ecial bit of software to run to clean my system, BUT that SHE is not allowed to see it or handle it!!!???? huh?? wot??!!!

1 week later............still no e-mail, message or contact and still no AV protection on my computer!!! tHEY ARE ABOUT TO GET A VERY ABUSIVE PHONE CALL AND LETTER!!!


BEWARE THE HELPLINE AT VIRGIN!!

I have never had any problem with Virgin or Talk Talk EXCEPT if I actually have to phone them. Virgin are usually next to useless and then, when they can't solve something, they use the standard 'reinstall your operating system' cop-out. Yes I'm really going to spend hours and hours setting up my whole PC again from scratch which won't actually resolve the issue but means you can tick the 'customer helped' box. I usually then end up solving it myself and have never had to reinstall the OS.
If I were you Clive I'd just instal Avast, or something of a similar ilk that is free. Do a search on Virgin's AV software and removal and you will eventually find a way. AV hates being uninstalled (I remember nightmares with Norton) and sticks itself everywhere eg registry entries so you can't just use the standard windows delete stuff.
Anyway good luck.

If it's of any help I use these for protection (both on XP and 7):

Avira Antivirus (free version without the firewall)
Comodo Firewall
Super Anti Spyware
Spyware Guard
Spybot Search&Destroy (optional, a bit too heavy and intrusive)

What a selfish attitude . Dont blame the poor little girl at Virgin , doing her best to help and all you can do is criticise  ::)

Please note all phone calls to Virgins will be recorded and may be used on a certain TV programme

PS ( we know where you live  )

Thanks for the advice Tim...until this issue I had been quite happy with all things Virgin, but as you rightly say their "helpline" just  doesn't!!  :-\ I guess the poor sods who answer the phones have a computer screen with a list of questions and responses and that is all they can follow.
Anyway I found a piece of software that rooted out the Virgin AV completely and have just reinstalled the whole package succesfully. If it goes wrong again I shall resort to one of the free AV's out there.


BTW Bernie, the nice young lady at Virgin was as shocked and bemused as I was, when she was asked to pass on the message that "ordinary" tekkies such as her could not be told about this mythical software. The fact that the software did not appear with the promised e-mail from the "level 2" tekkies is hardly her fault because she was not allowed to know what it was!!  Just what sort of system are Virgin running on their helplines??? It make you wonder ::)

I had a screen freeze, not a disco, like I had last night in 65 Pro at Snett as I posted in the other thread. I can say that I begun to suffer relatively frequent freezes since I have installed a new 23" LCD monitor and RasterD3D-V2 to support 16:9 resolution at 1980x1020 in September 2010. Freezes happened on all mods and on different servers. Maybe the wide resolution shows track's bugs more than 4:3 one?
I'm a track builder, or better I was, and tracks add on are far from perfect. For example at Hocknheim 67 there is a bug in the Motodrome and if you leave the TV1 cam running it goes CTD when the car enter the Motodrome. I had the same problem with my Vallelunga on Roma section, I changed cam position and the problem disappeared, but surely there is a bug in the outside scenery that I couldn't find.

On the server side we have another server at disposal as backup on Friday and Sunday night, so we could try that. Lately I found on T7 server many failed attempt of login to terminal server sessions, and I hope they didn't cause problems on conn. side.
Nonetheless on T7 server run GTR2 and rFactor servers used by other leagues and nobody has risen a problem, but we know that GPL is more fragile.
Ciao

Hm, maybe I'll try running OGL v2 or D3D v1 for some time and see if I get the same amount of freezes, but it's obvious that some freezes are either caused on the server side (and affect a couple of people at the same time) or that one client's problems cause another client a freeze (i.e. the contact between myself and Evil coincided with the mass freeze). Difficult to pinpoint an exact cause...

On the server situation I.m talking to SSMMDD (or mathew as his mum calls him) from www.wireplay.co.uk about the possibility of them hosting a server for us. They used to run a GPL server back in 2003/2005 and still have a large database of GPL files on their FTP. I`ll keep you all posted as to how this goes.

OK, Virgin 10Mb line installed and working a treat.. can't wait to test out GPL now :)