SimRacing.org.uk

UKGPL Season 21 65 Novices Trophy
Race 2 Watkins Glen

Round 2 of the Novices takes us to the U S of A. Watkins Glen International ("The Glen") is an auto race track located near Watkins Glen, New York, at the southern tip of Seneca Lake. It was long known around the world as the home of the United States Grand Prix, which it hosted for 20 consecutive years (1961–1980). In the early years races passed through the heart of the town with spectators lining the sidewalks, but after a car left the road in a 1952 race, killing one spectator and injuring several others, the race was moved to a new location on a wooded hilltop southwest of town.

Later a permanent race course was constructed on 550 acres, overlapping part of the previous course. Despite improvements, the circuit became unable to safely handle the increasingly faster and stiffer ground effect cars of the late 70s and a few horrendous, sometimes fatal accidents and increasingly rowdy segments of the crowd began to tarnish its image. Finally, in May, 1981, several months after Alan Jones had won the 1980 race for Williams, the International Auto Sports Federation removed the race from its schedule because the track had failed to pay its debts to the teams.

Please see the Novices registration thread for an explanation of the chassis allocations shown below:
https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9196.0

All drivers should continue to use the chassis that they started the season with. The only exception is Blito who chose the BRM because of a server glitch with the BT11.

FULL TIME

DRIVER	CHASSIS
Billy NoBrakes	BT11
Nigel Smith	Honda
Maddog	Cooper
Il_Lupo	Ferrari
HappyAl	Ferrari
NHance	BT7
Norbert	1
Blito	1
RogUK	Cooper
BadBlood	Honda
Francesco	Ferrari
Karliss	Honda
Cookie	Lotus
DuFossa	2
Economia	BRM
JonnyO	Lotus

RESERVE

DRIVER	CHASSIS
Maestro	3
Bookie	1
Fragfritz	1
GTA66	1

Reserve drivers should not join the server until there are only 30 minutes of qualifying left so as to give the FULL TIME drivers chance to join, and drivers are not to go out on track until there are 30 minutes of qualifying left as this helps all drivers join the server successfully.

Please restrict chat to pit messages if necessary, and this includes the end of the race, until all running drivers have completed the necessary laps.

The Novice races are run under Int Long rules and all incidents will be moderated.

Race List = IGOR
Server = UKGPL5
IP address = ping myjamesonline.net
Race date = 17/05/2011
Time = 21:00 UK time
Track = Watkins Glen
Variant = 65F1
Damage Model = Int
Qualifying time = 35 minutes
Race length = 33 laps
Password: see above (#post_event_password)

65 Patch: The 2.02 Release of the 65mod can and should be used.
http://bit.ly/d8dECl

Driver lists can be found on the Novice Championship Page (http://www.)

What glitch? And BRM is noticeably faster than the BT11, if you want a car which is about on par with BT11 it's Honda.

I had intended to use the BT11 but had an issue with the cockpit graphics on the brab and so switched to BRM at the last minute. To be fair I`ll probably stick to the BRM anyway as I just as happy with that as I am the BT11, or last seasons Ferrari for that matter!

So the BRM is noticeably quicker than the Honda? Bugger.  :laugh:

Yes, definitelly, and as you may recall you and Nige had free car choice this season. I know Nige is a hardcore Honda fanatic, but you wanted to try different cars, no? I guess you're stuck with the Honda now though, again.  :D

I am quite fond of my whale.

OK After a bit of advice now. I have a basic setup for the Honda which is stable but intrinsically slow but that is OK. Downloaded a setup for the Glen to compare. Normally I set my cambers -0.5 all round to keep it nice and even and tweak it if the tyre temps are bad. They normally aren't...

SO this nice shiny setup is hugely unstable and undriveable for me but it has more positive cambers on the right side so I basically halve the cambers on the right and slightly lower the wheel rates on the left. Bingo. I take a second off my PB and suddenly I can lap consistently in the sub 1:12s. Previously my PB was 1:12:82 and I would normally be mid 1:13's. Did five laps between 1:11.5 and 1:12.2. Much better. So far so good. It is nice and stable so I will not play around too much but I am still not sure I have got the gearing right.

I seem to hover around 11500 rpm around T2/T3 and I have to wait until the back straight to change up to 6th. It feels like it wants to change up in the corner and I would like that to be smoother so how do you achieve that.

I have a Diff of 9/37, 60/30 with 2 clutches and gears of 13.3ish, 9.98, 8.51, 7.19, 6.49, 5.82. Do I shorten 5th so as to not reach the change point in the corner or lengthen it to change earlier or does hovering around the change point in the corner not matter too much. Seems whatever I do I max out at about 154mph at the end of the long straight with 151/2 ish at the back of the big bend.

I can obviously play with them and 'feel' the difference but I'd like to understand the theory as well, if anyone knows or is it just personal preference/driving style as with driving setups suiting some but not others?

TIA

Good job, Paul. 11500 is way too high for mid-corner revs though, considering you should change up a gear at around 12000-12200 (max 12500, but I rarely go up to that, except in top gear). My simple guideline is to set the gear just so you have to change up as soon as you exit the corner and start going straight. It won't be possible for all corners, so you'd have to short-shift or mid-corner shift sometimes, but avoid going above the optimal max rpm as that loses you speed.

For Watkins in particular I think you should take The Loop in 4th, not 5th. Set 5th so you max it out shortly after you exit the long right-hand sweeper after the Esses and then change up to 6th without a big revs drop. I'm not sure, but you can probably take the first part of the Esses in 4th and then change up to 5th as you turn left over the crest. The gear change itself would give you some momentary grip at the front which will make it easier to turn in.

Thanks mate. Just what I needed.

Hmm Interesting. Adjusted the gears and found that I was slipping in the corners and understeer had increased. Adjusted the camber a bit and the roll bars until the tyre temperatures were nice and even but I just can't get the bloody thing to turn in. With the original setup the right front stays relatively cool and the left front gets VERY hot. Front roll bar stiffer to keep the car more level in the right handers?? This setup lark is hard and no matter what I do I can't seem to go faster than 1:11.5 ish but frankly consistent 1:11/1:12s in the race would be a quantum leap in performance.

Doing 1:11s every lap will net you a good result at Watkins.

So,this time i must use the Lotus instead of the Ferrari.Right?
Not clear why but i obey. ;D

I always like to throw in the odd 1:26 in there  ;D

Sorry, no. I made a mistake. Use the Ferrari.

still dont know do i will be able to race toninght...
anyway didnt pratice since last fryday
ps
is it posible, that previous race time wraps was affected, that one car run ontrack before 30min mark?

Don't think so, this is what Fran regulary does...  ::)

I think it is affected by extreme warping of drivers with bad connections.

Cheers
Axxel

Wow thank you,just in time.

WELLL!
i should be so lucky lucky lucky lucky
i should be so lucky in Watkins Glen.....
but i am bittersweet feeling..
1.First time ever i did POLE POSITION!!! + PB on track
2.i leed a race for some 7 laps, when forfeith for Cookie, till SOME stupid algorythm in lap 10 BLOW my engine....
3. i was so lucky it happens at pit entrance :)
5. returned in P5 and aimed my goal, CONFIDENCE, do whatever you can except mistakes
6. somehow i went back to P2 tried to catch Fossa, but race was too short, my car was much hevier (about 1/3 than it shoud), so...10more laps and who knows:) P2 in +1sec afterall
7. afteralll FIRST UKGPL PODIUM for me, and FIRST EVER LEAGUE RACE PODIUM (counted all leagues where i raced), i shuld be so happy!
8. (avoided horriffic crash, maybe little touched red car, but not by fault)

Well, I had a steady and pleasant (and slow) evenings drive to a unremarkable 10th place. The car was solid and stable and never once felt on edge but it just had no ball at all! Even coopers and BT7s were out dragging me on the straights! Only bit of fun was my cheeky re-passes on HappyAL and Badblood. The BRM had amazing traction out of the final corner! Pity it didnt have the grunt to match :(

Fun race for me. PB in qually and I was right up there in...14th :(

Started cautiously - thought that there might be some 1st lap fun and games... there were. Settled into a nice rhythm until I found a spinning car on the S/F and despite my best efforts hit it. Had to steer several times to make sure of contact. Sigh. Lost oout to Al and Blito and settled to chasing them down, which I did. Jason made a small mistake out of the loop and I was up with him. Could I pass? Maybe - yikes the big bend on the inside... gulp. Chickened out and lost time on the last corner. OK Chase him down again. This time I made the pass and made it stick but Jason got a good run on me out of the last corner - next time though I had the run and we went round side by side - oof. Not sure what exactly happened until I see the replay but I drove on in 9th I think. That scrap had put me into the clutches of Pete Maestro and I left him lots of room at the loop so as to make sure we both didn't crash - he was quicker and it was a matter of time.

Now I just needed to keep it going.... Did until 9 laps to go - caught the kerb at the right hander coming to the pits. Blast. Took ages to get going and my precious lead that I had eked out evaporated. Something had broken because the car wouldn't turn in and I clipped the armco in Turn 2. Horrible attempt to turn round as the track was clear but I couldn't get 1st - ended up sprawled across the track. Luckily no one hit me and I could get going again. Watch that one through my fingers I think. Drove for a finish and surprised to finish eleventh but not before some squabbling Ferraris took me out by the pits so that Jason could cheerily lap me... blast and double blast. Firts time I have beaten any of my cohort fair and square although Al's loss of Internet connection did help...

Not sure if I'll keep my place until I have seen the replay but it was a MASSIVE improvement for me. Great fun too. UPDATE - just watched the replay and I hope it goes down as a racing incident. It might be a bit ambitious from me though but I think I had the run on Jason. May be a penalty for me but I really hope not.

I hope the server was better for everyone this time.

It was fine Mike. Bit of warp but no real problems. Thanks.

Its 11pm on race night & I still haven't calmed down. I think this is now 6 races out of the last 7 where I have been involved in accidents and most of them, 4, from memory were on lap 1. Technically I may get the penalty here as when I turned in ( I was on the racing line) when contact was made the other car was half a car ahead. You can watch the mirrors & press the side view button but in the end you have to concentrate on taking the bend. Anybody heard of a bit of caution on cold tyres. We keep getting the mods stressing about you can't win a race on lap 1 but you can lose it. Well it seems I'm the one who always loses it.

So gentleman I am not happy. So here's something to think about & I would stress this is not aimed at anyone individually. If anybody comes near me with an overambitious manouver on lap 1 at the next race they will not see the end of the race without taking an s&g. In fact I might try one myself.
Norm H

Can't comment Norm because you are not on my replay on Lap 1 - strange. I couldn't see everyone at kick off either. Never seen that before. It will get moderated but I know that is not too much consolation.

Don't get too mad though. Lap 1 incidents seem to be very common lately. I started cautiously because I thought - somebody will cock it up and sure enough I made up 5 places before the loop.

on my replay in lap 1 are only 10!!!!! cars... also one of them appears on uphill climb T2 from nowhere
what causes sutch thing?

Not sure - same for me. It was like that in the race as well.

I can see you're not a happy bunny Norm but you are a sixth Season veteran in the Nov's. You must have got to the stage where you have seen more then your fair share of lap One-Ers. Guess you must have figured out why it's called the Novices and we have the hand of god (or is that Mike) who see's all...

Lap one mayhem can be fustrating. I came to a standstill just before turn 1 as there was an upside down cooper in the way.. luckily no damage was done to my car and I was only delayed by a couple of seconds so it didn't hange my race too much. 

Hi Norm, sounds like you are having really bad luck recently with accidents. I say stick with it and your luck will change. If you remember I was involved in quite a few lap 1 accidents, normally with you, but I’ve managed to cut most of these out. With a bit more experience things will get better.

As for my race all I can say is a big disappointment. Same problem I had with the GT race, I could not get near my off line practice times during the race. The car felt weird and I could not push.

In qualifying I managed a time which I was quite happy with, I did a 1:10.99. It was half a second off my PB but it put me quite well up the grid. I quickly decided to work on race setup and full fuel testing. As I was doing this I saw myself slowly drop down the grid until I was left with 13th. Not was I was expecting.

Onto the race, I started OK. I threaded my way though the lap 1 chaos and I was lapping in 7th place. I was right behind Billy at this point and we were more or less on the same pace. I decided to follow Billy, and not challenge him, for a few laps and build up the gap with the cars behind. It worked well until I made a silly mistake at the Loop, I ran a bit wide and put my tyres onto the grass and spun.

After the spin I was behind Rog, who was battling someone just in front. I tried to do the same as with Billy, and settle down behind Rog and try to gap the car behind. I made another silly mistake at the last corner, where I spun again and lost a load more time, this time letting though quite a few cars.

At no time upto this point was I driving at 10/10th I wasn’t pushing, so I was a bit miffed as to why I kept making these mistakes. I tried to push from this point on, but it wasn’t working. I was lapping 1.5 to 2 seconds off what I was doing in off line practice on full tanks. The more I pushed, the more mistakes happened, and the slower I went.

I more or less gave up at this point, it was 15 laps to go, Jason was 8 seconds ahead, and I caught a glimpse of his car every lap at the last corner. I tried and tried to pull in the gap but could not. In the end I did another spin at the last corner. I just gave in at this point, didn’t try to get any kind of lap time and bring it home.

Just to put the cherry on top of the cake, my wife pulled out the internet cable from the phone line. I don’t know why? She doesn’t know why either. I don’t know what lap I was on, and I don’t know where I finished, and I’m still a bit deflated from the race.

No point in dwelling on anything, I will try to do better in the next race and hope that this race is a one off this season.

At first I want to apologize my bad fault I did in lap 3 when I tried to outbrake Fabio....
But Fabios revanche I got later was not gentlemanlike! (31:53 - 31:56)

My practice:
Not a single clean lap, 3rd

My race:
Started with no problems in the first laps, besides my bad overtaking effort with Fabio.
Had fair and wonderful battles with Norbert and Karliss.
Being the leader made a mistake in turn 2 kissing the grass and then the armco...
Back in 6th I had to do some work.
Could get back to 2nd place until lap 27.
Then I did the last hairpin wide, was in the grass, came back on tarmac and got a big kick...
Had to wait more than 20sec until I could make s+r made the stop+go with 10 sec waiting :(
Ended in 9th, angry with myself, to have been unable to keep calm and cool!
Still have to learn and get more experienced.

Gratz to podium!

Cheers
Axel

OK the thought that I may have disappeared from the screen hadn't ocurred to me. We have had a grid load of BT vans in our streets installing cabling for superfast broadband but that doesn't solve the whole network. There was 7 races of frustration in last night's posting. Nov's has had a bad run of lap 1 incidents of late. Its never the same offender either. I am always aware of having cold tyres. If I upset anyone I appologise as if I had an issue with anyone in particular I would take it up with them via a PM not in a public forum. Just didn't want to write again qually went ok ---- by the end of lap 1 I was last. Hoped it would focus a few minds.

I would never deliberately take anyone out of the race.

Race report - after ploughing into someone else's accident & a 2nd s&g I was lapped by the car that finished I think 6th & I followed him for a lot of laps at 3 sec gap all the way to the finish where I had 5 gals of fuel left I think. So I was thinking what might have been. That just ramped it up a bit more.

Final moment. My brolly girl who I always refer to as the small but perfectly formed one at our house, or Mrs H to you, gave me a cuddle & said, "never mind Norm its only a game" Thanks love. But then she added " maybe your just too slow & getting in their way". UMMMMMM ;D

Norm H

Don't mean to pop my head round the Nov Division Door but thought i'd pitch in.

Nevermind Norm. In my opinion in Novs, either qualify on the front row and clear off asap, or if you don't qualify well, be confident you have the pace to hang back and try to pass people one at a time over the course of the race and see where you end up. If someone's having a go in the first couple of laps, let them go, you'll either catch and pass them later or they'll be long gone and its saved you the stress of defending for 40 minutes.

To be fair, at Pro level, i've found that in general there's not much passing on the first lap, if any. (though maybe thats because i'm at the back). I find i'm braking 50 metres earlier than normal and shifting a gear lower as the opening laps are so much slower and everyone is being cautious as there's no Shift R.

Anyway, you'll be alright. You've got the pace to compete so age is just a number, you just need a bit of luck. Remember, Mark Webber and Johnnie Herbert were always regarded as unlucky Drivers in F1, but they both got the odd victory in the end. No need to smash up the Mountside Racing Motorhome just yet.  ;)

It is good advice from Clutch. If you look at the replay Norm you will find that Norbert got a good run into the loop and keeps a tight line. Discretion the better part of valour?

It is difficult to advise because I am driving at the blunt end where the nose cones aren't quite so sharp but by being careful I made up five places on lap 1 with a 1:24!

A for Mrs. H's comment, that made me laugh. My wife spent a couple of minutes watching me be lapped by all and sundry a few months ago and just said. "Why do you like this so much? You're not very good, are you?"

TBH I am not sure why I like the ritual humiliation so much but you are much better than you showed in this one. Next race is always going to be better (at least it is in my imagination...). See you next time.

My wife unplugged me :(

LOL - You were just in front of me Al and behind Jason so you lost two places - could have been worse.

Wives and GPL eh?

Just comparing this season with last. Last time out I had a 15th and 12th, this time a tenth and eleventh. Improvement, yes. But last year at this time I was just ahead of Karliss. One of us has improved a bit more than the other ;) wd mate.

I saw the result that my country is unknown. Me and Jonny are Brazilian. Please add our national flag. Tks.  :)

Hmm your GPL player profile shows Brazil and so does the GPLRA report so it should pick it up.
Will look into it and let you know.

Hi Francesco!


We do not start to practice for the race at 35 minutes, so please wait until 30 minutes - Ok? :angel:

Tragedy once more reigned supreme, at the track where nightmares are made - the bloodsoaked section of road they call . . . Watkins Glen!  A Novice moderators Hell, and not my favorite spot.

After slipstreaming my way to the rear of the grid, it took less than 10 seconds to tangle, and mangle Roguk, off the start line.  A car further up the grid had bogged down, and each in line had reacted by braking a bit harder.   It was akin to the fantom traffic lights, that plague the motorways around London each rush hour, with a touch of warp thrown into the mix. :-\

The erratic driving seemed to continue, from all within my sphere of influence, including myself.  And things concluded, with a Honda sweeping gracefully across my line of fire at the esses.  Winding up, facing the wrong way on a blind bend, I decided to cut my losses, and bailed out.    

I REALLY REALLY tried to avoid you - honest!!

TBH I would have preferred you to retire a fraction earlier ;)

The Glen is one of my fav tracks (my only two wins in UKGPL races were both scored here) but I can't be satisfied about my race.

Qualify was quite good with the 4th place, just after the three quickest ones: well done guys.

At start I stripped the racing green paint from Axel's Lotus and I climbed on 3rd place.
Unfortunately it didn't last too much, as in the 3rd lap I was pulled out by Axel on the loop.
But I didn't get any damage and I fell on the track so I could continue the race.
A nice fight with Norbert ended too soon because of a mistake exiting the loop.
For some laps I was packed between Axel chasing Norbert and Karlis chasing myself.
Then Axel went wide out of track at the 90 and, without taking care of me, he immediately re-join the track and I really cannot do anything to avoid him. Karlis was also able to pass me.
Getting back on track I was really nervous so I made a couple of mistakes, the bad one on last lap, and I finally finished on 6th place.
Good to know, I scored my new PB.

Grats to the winner, to the podium, to everybody raced and to the race organization.
See you all at Aintree

I have noticed you have some clout around here, but don't suppose you're able to be in 2 places, at one time.  Unless of course, you're warped. :P

I know. I saw you. LOL.

@Martin - yeh - that is a tough one. Any clout I do have usually results in a penalty :(

I really never left the track! I went wide but my two right tyres where allways on tarmac! Check the replay!
You had an easy opportunity to avoid this kick! Just lift a little!

I am really sorry for the first incident! But this one is yours...

Axel

PS: Wait and see the incident is under moderation...

my pole lap not in blue color ...

Pole laps are never shown in blue.

OK checked with Giz. Go into your profile then 'driver details' and select your country. It should then show up correctly on future race imports.

OMG
next track seems very very blind corner! :o
1turn tricky...wall comes close sooner than u think
2turn only once i did it fast on 3rd gear...
3turn blind left
4turn blind left
5turn blind right
6turn blind right (very very easy to spin)
8turn BLIND left... u can choose bush inside or outside grass
9-10 chicane with options : Wall or Shortcut penalty
11 Right... tricky to do it fast without spin

there are no bankings at all or sometimes feels them are in oposite way
also trackside objects are so flat, that instead to hit car, you can limb in object.
so frustrated after practice

lol who choose this track for novices?
its harder than monaco!
 :hang:

Aintree hard? Please... you novices tend to complain a lot lately!  ::)  ;D

It's the same for everyone, so just learn the track and prepare well for the race, and it will be the same as with any other track. As for cutting, I think it should be allowed here simply because it's not always possible to go around with 2 wheels on the tarmac. Still though, I think the ideal line is by keeping half the car onto the tarmac, so whoever decides to cut is taking a bigger risk for himself and those around.

Anyway, the track is much easier in 65s than in any other mod. I'll upload some lap from our last BREASTS outing there.

I don't consider Aintree to be hard. Mostly raced it in F2 and it was always great fun.

Aintree is not really hard per se but it is very challenging to get a good time. Patience into some of those 90 degree turns and good traction coming out. Hard to hook it up though.

**UPDATE - Thought "If Karliss is struggling, maybe it is hard!" Went out and did five laps and got faster and faster as the confidence came in. "HA!" I thought. "Nailed it". 1:53 Big smiles. Onto GPL Rank to find I am only a second or so behind the likes of Goran, Ray etc. Not too bad... where is Karliss? 1:48. That's ruined my day... Harder than Monaco indeed. Pull the other one.

its hardest track i ever raced. i mean in terms of corner structure. even Nurb have some logic feeling in corners.
But its only my pov.

Hristo, maybe you can tell harder track in around 2min laptimes?

I find Rouen harder than Aintree... it's just that most of us have 100x more experience at it.

What do you mean by corner structure anyway? It's quite simple, at least in the BT7:

T1 drop a gear and get on the power early on, full throttle.
T2 brake very late and deep, carrying a lot of speed into the corner, stepping onto the inner grass a bit and then using a bit of the outside grass on the exit.
T3 brake on time and don't run wide, then keep inside until you see the exit and floor it.
T4 brake earlier than it feels normal and turn early into the corner, patience with acceleration out of it.
T5 normal line, with middle apex, careful on exit not to run wide onto the grass; avoid stepping on the inside grass at the corner.
T6 brake and turn at the same time, not too hard on the brakes, but you have to turn early as the car drifts wide going over the crest; once you're on the outside, floor it.
T7 straightline the chicane, brake early before it, ease off the brakes when you step on the grass, then let the car drift to the left on the exit so you position yourself well for the next chicane
T8 you can lift a bit if your line is not perfect, otherwise take it flat out; careful not to lose the front end over the grass.
T9 brake early, turn early, accelerate early, drifting wide right next to the wall edge.

i found this
seems lap around 1-49
and looks very easy...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3zMKobALWCQ

Well, my WR is better - 1:47.9  ;D Here's the replay:

http://racingleague.co.cc/hikiwaza/downloads/Hri_Itc_aintree_BrabhamBT7_1m%2047.904s.rpy

I posted the Aintree thread so can we move this chat to there please?

https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9415.msg170918#msg170918

Seems to be difficult to moderate  ;)

Not so much the incidents themselves but their knock on effects.

Oh and I just got back from a City Break in Rome.

It will be published tonight.

Race Mod Published.

 :thumbup2: Thanks Mike for the great job you are doing for us novices! :thumbup2:

A good lesson for me to learn:
its not all about fast laps, but learn to respect the other drivers because they are no AIs!

Cheers
Axel
 

 

Thanks Mike.
An interesting read, and for once I'm innocent! No penalty points for me today! Woohoo!  :angel:

WOW
looks like i virtualy won this race by points to
lol