SimRacing.org.uk

As we are halfway through the season now might be an opportune time to review how things are going and canvas opinions from you, the drivers, on what has gone well and what hasn't. It can also be used to garner ideas for what we will do in the next season.

Firstly, we have set up four polls where you can vote (see 'announcements');
Porsche Team Cup (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9662.0)
65 divisions (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9663.0)
Seasons and breaks (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9664.0)
60fps patch (https://www.simracing.org.uk/smf/index.php?topic=9665.0)
You can ONLY vote in those threads but feel free to leave any comments regarding them here.

Aside from the ‘polls’ an Agenda is outlined below.  Please feel free to comment on these items or indeed raise new ones. Nothing is written in stone yet.

1) Lap one modding - how do you feel it is working out? Is it having any effect on decreasing the number of incidents?
 
2) Scoring system - any comments following the change?
 
3) 50% rule (Pro/Historics). How do we feel this is working? Is it making things safer or putting people off bothering?

4) Are things too heavily weighted against the following driver? Should we ease up to encourage more passing? Are we encouraging close racing or stifling it with too much moderation?

5) Any rule changes you would like to see?

6) Moderating and the Appeals Process - is everyone happy with the moderating and appeals process?

7) Handicapping - are we happy with the way things are currently working?

8 ) Rule confusion between divisions
Are all the different tweaks for different divisions confusing? What would you like to see happen?

Here are the basic differences;
67 Works - PRO so no shift/r
67 Privateers - ONE shift/r only with a compulsory SnG
66 Historics - PRO so no shift/r and you must complete 50% distance to score
65 Pro - PRO so no shift/r and you must complete 50% distance to score
65 Novs - unlimited shift/r but with a compulsory SnG
Specs - unlimited shift/r but with a compulsory SnG
GT's - ONE shift/r only with a compulsory 10 second pit stop
Porsche - PRO so no shift/r

9) The divisions - any comments or suggestions?

10) Tracks
Are we happy with the current track allocations?
Are we happy with trying new tracks? (subject to checking for faults and possible testing)
Are there any tracks you would particularly like to see in Season 22? If so which mod and why?


All other comments and suggestions are most welcome…

So many topics to cover, lol, this may be a long post...


1. Porsche - I think the fact that this is the much easier car to drive makes it more suitable to running a team championship that has drivers of any skill level and experience running in it. Porsche vs. Ferrari is a bit like comparing 65s to 67s F1, and more people are feeling comfortable with the former. Anyway, if I have to speak for myself only, I support the Porsche as well, it's stable, fast, has a big mirror and looks good.  ;D The only downside may be that it has a shorter braking distance so passing is more difficult, but I don't really mind. Ah and it's much less prone to experiencing the locked wheels bug than the other cars.

2. 65s - I don't really mind running smaller grids. As I've said before, you only race against 3-4 people at most, the rest are either backmarkers to you, which you'd prefer to go without most of the time, and people you never see during the race. So 3 divisions sounds better, not to mention the benefits in terms of handicapping the field better and allowing quicker drivers to race something other than BT7/Cooper, assuming we still continue to use the same handicapping system.

3. Season breaks and format - I like the idea of running a short 5 races season until the end of this year and then begin the next proper season in January 2012. The idea of planning up to 2013 is a bit unrealistic to me, it's impossible to predict how things would unfold in such a vast period of time (relatively speaking), so I see no benefit in planning to shift the season starts at January 2013 after having another frequently paused and prolonged season in 2011-2012.

4. 60 FPS patch - my new PC can handle it most of the time now, though I experience some fps drop with GTs sometimes, even without 60 fps patch, so if we're to use it, I would be against that to happen with the GT mod or that we use tracks with heavy graphics.


I've not seen a difference really. People drive the same as before, at least in the divisions I race in. It's a good thing to have though, so I hope lap one mandatory modding remains.


It works good so far, I'm glad we didn't go along with the initially proposed system.


I like it and if it was up to me, I would introduce it to more divisions as well, such as GTs, Porsche and Works. I don't really understand why it's only used in Pro and Historic, given that our only rookie divisions are Novices and Privateers.


Apart from a few occurrences of verdicts where I think the driver in front should've shared more of the responsibility, but where it wasn't really a passing maneuver to begin with, I haven't noticed much of a pattern like that. In general I've always been under the impression that a lot of incidents are simply labeled as racing incidents as it should be, with a few exceptions which I oppose, but I guess you can't expect perfection with such a thing. I would actually ask for more severe penalties again, because the current ones simply don't teach the driver that he/she should change their approach in future races and not cause the same type of accidents over and over again. It's very frustrating to others who get involved and have their races ruined repeatedly, just for the responsible driver to be given another string of dropped places...


Yes, as I just said for the previous point - gradually increasing penalties in terms of severity and type, instead of simply increasing the number of lost places, particularly when penalizing drivers who don't really lose anything with such a penalty, such as retired drivers or drivers finishing down the grid. The idea of penalties should be to show the driver he's doing something wrong and that he should change his approach.

I also think the corner cutting rule shouldn't be rigidly set in stone, but be adapted on a track by track basis. There are certain tracks which have corners and zone where cutting is the safer thing to do (i.e. Pebble Beach or Aintree) or tracks where, even if you try each lap, you would often cut quite often, just because it's the more natural line. Also, as was the case with Adelaide, we were allowed to use road beyond the white line in places, but not in others, where it the advantage gained would increase hand by hand with the risk taken. That means it should be down to the drivers to decide how much they want to risk in order to gain advantage.


Seems fine to me. Some division races take a very long time before a moderator report is published though, but I guess people are busy.


Not in some divisions, no, especially in 65s. I don't like how our top drivers are so overly-handicapped that they are no more in contention for podiums and their only chances remain if one of those who is put in faster car has bad luck and either retires or drops down. I also don't like that nothing is being done for drivers who are clearly too fast for the chassis they drive. Championship standings should not be used to judge how well handicapping is working and things should be looked in detail - lap times, consistency, driving mistakes, fairness of driving and so on. It's really disturbing mixing up drivers on different stage of their development and having them race each other, because there's a lot of misunderstanding and trouble on the track as a result. Handicapping should be more subtle, just enough to close the gaps, but not so much as to change the order - that is unacceptable and it goes against the principle of competitive racing.

I'm also still not really content with the tokens system in Graduates. I know it's not a form of handicap, but teams who chose to use a single chassis are automatically handicapped by either having to drive slower cars in some races or being forced to take a non-team car if they're to have enough tokens to race their team car. With the pitstop system it allowed any kind of teams to race on equal terms - both single chassis and multiple chassis teams.


Yes, I find it very confusing to remember all the differences between the divisions and I think they should be united under one set of rules or two at most - one for rookie/slower drivers divisions and one for the rest. I would support Pro damage, no shift-r, 50% distance to score, or if we want to keep shift-rs and stop/gos for some of the divisions, those should have Int rules, 1 shift-r only, compulsory stop/go at end of the same lap without any time served. GTs in particular were very confusing with that 10 seconds stop requirement.


I think I mentioned that above under handicapping. Maybe I should add, in addition to what I said above, that I'm a firm supporter of the Historic handicap system and that it should be used in Pro division.


Tracks are good and interesting, but they must be chosen in relation to handicap systems to avoid giving too much of an advantage to quicker cars, otherwise it's extremely frustrating to some of the drivers. We should accent on driving skill, not machinery, and tracks play a major role in how that balances out. As for what tracks I like to see, I noticed one particular track which I remember is very interesting to drive and would like to see it used, probably in 65 division and some of the others as well. It's called Opatija (Preluk) and you probably know it. I think it was a real track as well. If I have to chose a fantasy track, I would vote for The Moon!  ;D Seriously, it provides great racing as we found out some months ago when we used it in BREASTS.

Everybody who can race a GT or 69X race with stable 36FpS can also run it with 60 with the right settings!

In the FunLiga we race GTs with 60FpSV1 patch. 20 different tracks per year with a constant training server on IGOR.

I experienced some fps drops down to 40fps before our last race at Monthlery,
but after correcting my CCC 3D settings my race was in stable 60FpS.

I had set up several times servers with the new 69X mod or GTs in 60fps without problems caused by the patch.
67s, 65s and 66s should run for everybody, as they have much lower requirements.

I also know drivers who boycott 36fps races consequently. "Eek flip-book!" This is so sad...
 

Here I am fully with Hristo
Yes I vote for 3 divisions with free car choice!
Dominating drivers have to move up next season!
Even when there are only 9-10 drivers in each we will get much closer grids!
Maybe we also get more drivers to take part as there is more fun with closer racing.


Imagine the F1 when the fastest drivers Vettel, Alonso, Hamilton and Button get mid season a Lotus for the rest of the races...

:chef:

3 items on my agenda :

In my opinion the 1965 series require a crystal ball - not as a trophy, but so as to predict the division's future popularity.  A 3 way split would be good, if we continue to grow in numbers, and there are 3 adequate Servers, to serve us.  There is currently only 1 good one, in use in 1965.

And if we were to adopt a '66 style handicap system, there'd be rather a lot of Lotii, running loose about the place.  I prefer to see a variety of species.

Porsche or Ferrari - the success of the Super Cup IMHO, is due to the Porsche's, 'One size fits all', user friendliness.  The GT series has nowhere near the same popularity to date.  Even if rolling starts were discontinued, I think this would remain true.  While the Ferrari has the looks, and the sound to be more successful, it lacks the same driveability.

However, a Ferrari mini-series might be fun, in the off-Season?  It would indicate if there is further reason, for debate.

Driver penalties - I'd vote for more serious penalties for more serious transgressions, and would like to see it linked to our former glorious championship points system, with it's emphasis on outstanding performance.  On the other hand, we currently have the opportunity to transgress our way through many more races, than in the past.  So, if penalties were made more serious, their duration should be shorter, or they may provoke discontent amongst the masses!  Horrors!     

Which one? I can use UKGPL3 next season which I think has proved robust for practice and the BritFun series.

Hi

I only race 65 Pro because a lack of time means i don't seem to be able to get set-ups, learn tracks, practice for more than one division. Tried it before, but it didn't work, though ideally i'd like to try others.

I can only comment on 65 Pro, so here goes:

Tracks - I love the tracks this season. There really has been a selection whereby the slower drivers can make the power count and mix it with the really fast drivers. I've found the Tracks last season didn't really give that much of an advantage to the 'power' boys, but the results this season seem a little more varied with the podium spots being available to a larger selection of drivers.

Handicapping system - Ok try this. For next season in 65 Pro, lets have NO handicapping. Lets get rid of all these tedious pre season, pre race, post season, post race threads about handicapping and lets do a season in 65 Pro only with no Handicapping. Everyone picks the car they want and thats the end of it.
For me, i want us to find out what a non-handicapoing season would be like in Pro 65. If the same people / person wins, so be it. If after half a season half the people drop out because they're at the back all the time and its boring, so be it. If it becomes incredibly dull, so be it. At least then we've given the fast guys a chance to blow away the opposition and we can see the Pro's and Cons, and who knows, if you drop Spa & Monza in there, a few of us slower guys may be able to hold onto their coat tails.
I stress, this is for one season only. It would also offer the chance (slim chance) for one of the slower guys to maybe get a victory or podium on 'fair' terms which is worth more. 
Don't get me wrong, i think the handicapping system is working well this season, as it has in previous 65 Seasons and i'm personally happy for it to continue. But lets have a 'one off' season where everyone can do what they want. If its absolutely rubbish, then even the most talented drivers may think, well, its nice winning, but when i'm leading from lights to flag without another car insight on a half empty server, exactly how much fun was it?
To be fair, there's about 5 guys in Pro 65 who could fight all race at the front with each other regardless of car choice so it may not be that bad.
Just a controversial point.  ;)

Races - I'd still like slightly shorter Pro 65 races as i still think its usually all done and dusted at 75% race distance.

Other than that. - No problems. Love UKGPL and the members. All of them, friendly and helpful gentlemen.

Incidentally, when Targa was released we did a one off time trial event over 1 lap (about a year ago?) with everyone setting off at 1minute intervals. That was quite good as a one off event and a little different from the usual 'races'. Maybe worth another go if enough interest.  ;)

Thanks to all at UKGPL. Keep up the great work.  :) 

Porsche Team Cup
i like it as it is now,everybody can drive Porche ;D, not against Ferrari cup i like all GT cars  .  :D

65 divisions
i think amateurs and pros separately is ok.

Seasons and breaks
ok as it is

60fps patch
i have been using 60fps with 67's,66's,65's,GT's,69X's,  67's many seasonsnow in Trellet.net gpl league without problems,  only mod it is struggle is GT-mod + Porches, 69-extra mod. So i recommend using original 67's or 65's with 60fps, + using known light versions of tracks



1) Lap one modding - how do you feel it is working out? Is it having any effect on decreasing the number of incidents? 
its working i guess

2) Scoring system - any comments following the change?
ok ,no problems
 
3) 50% rule (Pro/Historics). How do we feel this is working? Is it making things safer or putting people off bothering?
so you mean you have to drive 50% of race distance?, its okay too

4) Are things too heavily weighted against the following driver? Should we ease up to encourage more passing? Are we encouraging close racing or stifling it with too much moderation?
cant comment on this yet as havent seen ALbi 65's pro race report.

5) Any rule changes you would like to see?
GT's shift-r + stop'n go 10sec at pit is confusing , i have no clock always to watch seconds, i recommend set this to just stop'n go without 10sec sitting.

6) Moderating and the Appeals Process - is everyone happy with the moderating and appeals
process?
is very slow, but what can you do?  ;)

7) Handicapping - are we happy with the way things are currently working?
yes slow car for fast drivers

8 ) Rule confusion between divisions
Are all the different tweaks for different divisions confusing? What would you like to see happen?
yes as Hristo mentioned before shift-r and stop'n go penalties should be same for all division and mods.

9) The divisions - any comments or suggestions?
works as it is now

10) Tracks
Are we happy with the current track allocations?
Are we happy with trying new tracks? (subject to checking for faults and possible testing)
Are there any tracks you would particularly like to see in Season 22? If so which mod and why?
the more non-papy tracks the better, i liked the tracks is been used past 65 season and GT's + Porche cup. If we are going to use 60fps with GT's or Porche Cup i suggest to choose known very light tracks as i have problems to run these mods smoothly. 


Juha

It means you need to have covered at least 50% of the race distance before you're eligible to score points. If you retire before that, you score zero.

Just a bit of feedback as to the length of time it takes to moderate as the subject has been mentioned. Not a defence, fair enough it can take a while, but basically this is what happens; we have to leave it open for around a week so you guys can submit and respond to any reports. The modder then has to review any reports/responses/client replays as well as the server replay. Also, we now have to check everyone in lap one and clear them off. Once that happens, if there are no incidents or they are fairly straightforward, the report can be typed and posted. IF, and this quite often happens, an incident is not entirely clear cut a modder may want opinions from other moderators so they have to wait for that.
It comes down to time, people might be away etc and it doubles up for second opinions. We try to get reports published before the next division event but it's not always possible.

Point taken though.

**EDITED BY MIKE TO FIX THE QUOTES

The Porsche works because the Porsche fits on the track and has decent visibility to allow some close racing. The other GT cars, in my opinion, are too large and have crap visibility, thus providing a race full of incidents if people could be bothered to report them.

If the numbers warrant it then three divisions would be the obvious solution but I personally would not leave it up to the drivers to decide which divsion and which car they drive.

As long as you keep to full 10 race seasons start them when you want but no 5 race seasons for me please.

No thank you. Tried it and cannot get Prib to work (sorry I find Prib useful), and frame rates dropped for me despite some tweaking. Why try and fix something when its not broken?

I still think its a good idea. Impossible to say whether its having the effect on decreasing the number of incidents as people seem generally reluctant to report themselves or others and who can blame them with the current penalty point system.
 
Yes its working in terms of spreading the points and keeping the championships closer but I still think it takes a little away from finishing on the podium. I'm probably just being nostalgic, its working.
 
Not for me this one. You start a race, complete as many laps as you can and collect points for where you finish regardless of how many laps you have completed. Seems fair to me. We have had a ridiculous situation already this season where someone found at fault for causing someone else to retire early despite being penalised actually kept their position because the all the other drivers including the driver affected by their poor driving had not completed 50% distance!!! Does that put me off, you bet it does.

No the rules are pretty clear and appear to work. My one proviso would be the issue of excessive centre lane hogging by drivers at times. I'm probably as guilty as the next driver at times and would like to see this discouraged to allow more side by side racing.

Like other I would like to see some harsher immediate penalties for clear and/or repeat poor driving offences. Starting from the loss of championship points, next race back of the grid, next race compulsory first lap stop and go, next race ban, anything but something different to the accumulation of the current penalty points.

You guys are doing a great job, thanks.

In general some form of handicapping is required to keep things intersting for all. Maybe the handicapping in the Pro series is too extreme for some but at the other end of the spectrum the Porsche Cup was saved from total disaster by the spread of drivers per team handicapping stipulated.

No. How hard is it for people to just read the rules on the series specific page before a race if they are not certain???

Intermediate divsions if enough people but I like the idea of drivers being graded for these divisions rather than deciding totally themselves. Drivers can at times be less than honest regarding their abilities.

Love the track choices this season, the mix of old and new works for me. As couple of track I would like to see what about the International Motor Speedway (oval) and the Isle of Man road course, peachy.  The 69 mod maybe, I miss it this season.

All other comments and suggestions are most welcome.

Sorry Ray, but this is not an point against 60FpS!

I have perfect working Pribluda under all conditions!

Look, here are my Pribluda files to test:
PS: there is free DL on this possible for everybody ;)

:chef:

Thanks for the edit Mike it needed it.

Point taken Axel. My main gripe is the apparent lack of frame rate improvement, for me, with my current set up despite tweaks to my graphics. I'm still working on it and its getting better. I'm all for progress but only if we can get it working for everyone.

PS Still cannot see the free download?

The rule is to motivate people to try and reach at least half distance, and that helps avoid unnecessary risk taking in the beginning. It also prevents people to just park it on lap 1 or something, and still score, especially when there are smaller grids (i.e. check the number of starters for Lakeside Works). As for being a victim in an accident, that's how it is - today it may be you, but next time it would be someone else. How fair is it if you struggle and fight for the whole duration of the race while someone does a handful of laps, but still both of you get points? It affects the championship in an unrealistic manner and as far as I know every real life motorsport has a rule for completed distance before you can score.

Hello,

Even though I was told before the season started that my opinion doesn’t count because I’m too slow, I’m going to wade into this anyway.


I would prefer to keep the current Porsche series, instead of a Ferrari series.

I am in favour of an intermitted 65 division, smaller grids won’t be too much of a problem, and it might bring more people into the Novices division as they don’t have as much of a cliff to climb.

I like the idea of automatic promotions and demotions to the different divisions too, but I guess that happens anyway.

How about a silly idea where Novices can only drive BT7 and Coopers, mid level drivers can drive BRM, Honda, Cooper or BT7 and the Pro’s get a completely free choice. That way there is an incentive to move up and avoid going down (or maybe not, but like I said, it’s a silly idea).

I’m fine with what ever happens with the different seasons.

I would like to do a test series with the 60fps patch before I comment any further, as I don’t have much experience running it.


No problems with lap 1 modding, it seems to be working well as far as I’m concerned.

 
Yes I think it’s working well, maybe people are getting too many points for finishing mid table, but I don’t have any better suggestions so it’s good.



Don’t run these leagues so I have no comment


Not noticed anything wrong with the current system, if anyone has and can put their point across then I’ll be happy to see a change.


Yes, I think that the current penalty points system needs a bit of a overhaul. I think that the penalty points stay on the record for too long. It works well if you are only racing one or two series in the year, but if you race quite a bit, and get involved in only one or two incidents then you get penalised too heavily. In fact if you look at the Novices points page you’ll be hard pressed to see anyone without any penalty points.

I also like Ronnie’s idea of increased penalties for repeat offences, starting with next race back of the grid, next race compulsory first lap stop and go, next race ban etc. (I’m well aware that my performance at Monza would of activated one of these punishments)


Yes, all seems to be working well. And I am thankful that we have moderators that are willing to give up their free time to help run our racing series smoothly.

The only other things I would like to see is the moderator giving more advice in the Novice division.


Yes, handicapping seems to give different people a chance to compete evenly in the divisions that I race in.


I think that only the novices should be allowed any type of shift/r, as I think that the penalty for getting something really wrong is not high enough at the moment. I understand that it gives people a second chance, especially when it wasn’t your fault, so I do understand why the rule is in place.


I would like to see a 69 division, and a intermittent 65 division as covered above.


Current tracks are fine, Novices epically was a good selection this year.

I’ve no problem trying any track, the only problem I’ve got is that I’m slow at learning new tracks and might not have time to learn a long track. But that’s my problem and I’ll just have to deal with it if we choose a longer track.

I would like to see Nürburgring (Nordschleife) (lol, yes I can see the irony to what I said above) in the Novice division.


Just to say thank you again to all the mods how make our races possible.

Track allocations :

Several of the original 11 GP tracks, have had their races lumped together, this Season.  2 or 3 Divisions, racing on the same track, within just a few days.  We still have a spate at Spa, and then Zandvoort coming up.  I doubt there is a particular advantage to this, unless someone knows different?

Last Season, I suggested we take this approach to new tracks.  An objection by some, was that tracks are hard to learn.  By using them in 2 or 3 mods, we get our moneysworth - 'more wheelbanging for our Buck', as the Americans would say.  The fab. 11 are used often, so everyone should know their way around already.  Do we want them lumped next Season, or spaced out? 

Yes Al, not a silly idea!

Maybe not only the slowest cars but a kind of specs. Eg the Ferrari at Monza and the Cooper at Mosport...
Give the Novices for each track a different car to improve their skills.

When I started in novices series I never had tried a 65 before. I just took the Lotus as I was told its the best car.
But in Specs I learned to race the BRM and the Honda on the same track, what was a great eyeopener about their qualities.

For the higher classes I am totally with you.

About the penalties:

As long as I get 2 penalty points to a list, this does not really hurt.
But if those 2 points give me a handicap in the next grid, I will learn...
Give an extra 5 gal for each pp to the start of the next race!

:chef:



 

I agree with Martin here. By all means, let us use the Papyrus tracks because they are so popular but this season I have found myself  thinking  "oh no! not ruddy xxxxxxx again" and even wondering if I really want to drive the same track for the 4th time in as many weeks.

Variety is the spice of life so lets sprinkle the tracks about a bit so that we get some respite from monotony? I know there are some members who enjoy the security of racing on well known Pappy tracks. But eventually everyone becomes more adept at learning new tracks and enjoying the challenge of taming a new stretch of tarmac.. and at least the scenery is different  ::)

Maybe the longer and more complex add-on tracks can be reserved for the "PRO Divisions" as we used to in the days of the "Masters" here in UKGPL. I am not advocating 100% add-ons for the higher leagues, just maybe a few more new tracks than might be used in the Novices.

A couple of quick observations.
On grouping of races with different mods on the same track. This was introduced due to popoular request - because people has issues with learning different tracks. Personally I'm with Evil & Maddog & prefer to spread them around.
Introduction of a third grid for Novices. Sounds good & whilst we are likely to have enough registrations will there be enough drivers turn up regularly? The Nov's registration table is about 50% over sub-scribed but there's probably only be one or two races with a full grid. If attendances are going to be in single figures I'd prefer to run two grids.

Very good point, I was already sick of the 4-5 Monza races we had in a row last season.


As Martin pointed out, this was only asked for addon tracks, especially rarely used ones, so people can gain more experience on them and particularly if their main race comes after another 2-3, which they can enter to learn the track properly. It was never aimed for Papy tracks and nobody suggested we should do it with known tracks.


I don't agree at all about Pro getting free choice - we'll all be racing BRMs and Lotuses if that happens...  ::)

Strongly agree about the tracks - even I am bored with Monza.

Lump the new ones together by all means but seperate out the Papy tracks.

On the issue of an intermediate grid we have had the following attendances

Novices	Pros	Total	Average
14	10	24	8
17	13	30	10
15	12	27	9
15	13	28	9 ish
19	16	35	12 ish
18	12	30	10

Those wouldn't be bad grids but it might be quite variable between the divisions so you might end up with grids of, say, 10, 6 and 12. That is not necessarily a bad thing but the big grids in Novices have been fun BUT we have had a full grid and it would be a shame if we had to turn drivers away.

Personally I would like to have a registration for an intermediate grid and see how the numbers stack up for before committing.

It's down to what people want, Paul - would you rather race with people at your level or run alone at the back, getting lapped by faster drivers? Having 3 divisions would equalize the performance, so you'd never notice the thinner grids - you'd be too busy racing those around you on equal terms. The only downside I see with it is if someone is making a video, as it would be noticeable that the grid is smaller, but IMO 10 is quite OK.

You can lay the lumping of tracks together at my door. Feedback last time round was people didn't want a whole string of different tracks happening at the same time, I don't recall lots saying don't do that for Papy's but I might not have picked up on that. I'm happy to go with the majority - if you want them spread out leave a note here and we will do that.

By virtue of them being add-on tracks it is unlikely to happen very often as each division mod picks their own so any duplication is purely by chance.

If the current poll comes out in favor of three divisions that would be the intention. We won't run grids with silly numbers so it would ultimately come down to how many sign up.

Hello,

I made a mistake in voting for the seasons, I voted for:

Carry on fluidly without fixed seasons

But after reading it again I ment to vote for:

Full seasons to continue with breaks as proposed below

Is it possible to change my vote?

It's locked but I'll make a manual note.

I agree that grids of 10 would be OK. I'm hoping for nine really slow newbies and then a few lonely races lapping people...  ;D

Seriously though, ten + would be good, less than that starts to get a bit thin

I only do 65's & Novice class at that.
I would prefer a no handicap season but this time in Novices. It gives a chance to try all the cars if you stay a novice long enough. I went BT7 this season 'cos I was fed up of BT11 & only alternative was a Cooper. I'll probably go back to BT11 next time as the break has been good.
It could be that some faster novices prefer to remain in novices. They can handicap themselves if they wish. Auto promotion/relegation is an idea well worth considering. It would not be good if Nov's was so full that some missed a race whilst pro's grids seem to me to be smaller this season.
Some may prefer Novice racing because of the availability of ShiftR. NO NO NO honestly I'm not raising that again but I am serious. However it's up to those racing in Pro class. End of.
Norm H
 

1) Lap one modding - works well but is not having any effect on decreasing the number of incidents?
 
2) Scoring system - fine, better than previous?
 
3) 50% rule (Pro/Historics). A bit penalistic. disappointing when you have made say 40% slogging your guts out and then nowt :( Maybe 33%? I don't think it concentrates the mind in terms of making things safer but it can sometimes militate against racing. Not really fast enough to comment really. This is a rule for the Pros ;)

4) Are things too heavily weighted against the following driver? Yes, but it just needs a tweak so that we have a rule base to penalise bad driving by the leader?

5) Any rule changes you would like to see? Yes. Clause to punish bad driving by the lead driver as above.

6) Moderating and the Appeals Process - is everyone happy with the moderating and appeals process? No - I'm doing too much ;) Seriously, it is good, I think but it might be helpful to have a formal reviewer of a mod designated for each race so that you do not have to put out a general appeal for second opinions.

7) Handicapping - are we happy with the way things are currently working? Generally, yes but it occurs to me that in the Novices if we want to develop the drivers we could adopt the Historic handicapping where drivers are limited to a group of cars with free choice within the group. The higher up the championship, the tighter the group.

8 ) Rule confusion between divisions
Are all the different tweaks for different divisions confusing? Yes. Standard rule for Shift/R where allowed. Either 10 secs or SnG. I prefer 10 secs - might dissuade drivers from some of the rasher moves. And pigs might....

9) The divisions - fine. We need to think about how we fit in F2, 69, 69Xtra etc.

10) Tracks - just not good enough to comment objectively although I HATE Jarama ;)

One last thing occurs to me and that is that we have a fairly static structure for the season. It might be possible to leave some gaps to have pick up races with these extra mods as non-championship events a la BREASTS but with moderation.

In theory if the top of the Novices division moved up, the whole Novices division could move up a group, so we may end up not having a Cooper troop initially.

I was just looking at the graphical race report of the novices EastLondon race ::)

(http://i56.tinypic.com/2zh041w.jpg)

Got an idea about handicapping...

To make a real picture of the drivers performance:

Start the season with two spec races, all in the same car.
To avoid self handicapping, give an extra bonus by eg double points.

:chef:
 

That would depend on a couple of factors, Axel, so it won't be as objective as you may think:

1) The type of track (fast, slow, wide, narrow, bumpy, smooth, etc.), how familiar are all drivers with it, how much they've prepared for the spec race.

2) The choice of spec car, how familiar are all drivers with it, how much it suits their driving style, do they have a setup they're comfortable with for that car.

3) For the race itself, was slipstream a big factor or not, have incidents happened during the race, were there innocent victims of incidents, did anyone suffer mechanical failures, were there outside factors such as lag, PC slow down, disconnects or screen freeze.

4) And of course - luck! It always plays a role.

If you want a good estimation of driving ability spread, you would need a lot more races to average from, so if you're to use such info, simply use the data gathered from the Spec races, whenever they ran 65 races. Of course, not all drivers entered that since it was introduced a few seasons ago, but it would be a lot more objective than what you propose.

I hadn't realised how bad I was at East London until I saw this. I know the track reasonably well and mixed it well in the first few laps but lost concentration badly in the middle. The handicapping should have two objectives, one to even up the field a little (but let the better drivers show it) and two to improve the driving abaility of the novices.

I do wonder whether a 'school' would be useful. Organised sessions where eager novices are coached. The coach would have to be extraordinarily patient though.

I can agree with your intention Paul and I am ( almost but not quite  ::) ) happy to offer my help to anyone desperate enough to take it.


IMHO ;)
The main problem as I see it with coaching in GPL is that, unlike the real world, the fastest way around any circuit for any driver is a combination of ...........
   ability and knowing the best lines through corners. But both of those attributes are dependent upon the setup that they have and are able to drive to its max. It is generally acknowledged that as your experience/ability develops so your setups evolve to maximise that factor.
If you don't adjust your setup as you develop, you will reach a plateau of performance where your ability is actually limited by what the car can be made to do.

I have no doubt that I could give you one of my setups and give you a replay of a fast lap which would prove absolutely useless, as I cannot be show you exactly  how much trailing throttle to use or exactly how much braking to use and when to get off of the brakes to make both the setup and racing lines work for the best.

I think the more experienced drivers can offer advice/schooling on what you should be TRYING to do, but practice and experimentation are your best tools.

It's very difficult to teach someone online as opposed to actually being there with the other person. I've given some of my friends (who don't play race sims at all) a go at GPL and although they were clueless at the beginning, they would improve a lot within an hour or so, just by listening to my advice and trying what I tell them to do. The difference is I could observe how they manage the wheel and pedals, where they look and how they react to things, plus I could show them myself how I do things. I'm quite sure that if we have such a live meeting a lot of drivers would learn a whole lot more than from watching replays or online videos, or read someone's explanations.

I am still amazed, at how few drivers, take the time, to take the opportunity to practice races online, before the main event.  Traveling close to competitors, is a good way to learn where you're fast, where you're slow, and where you're clumsy.

I have done a couple of online sessions with sympathetic drivers who say 'just follow my lines' and then zoom off and leave me to to bury my nose in a hedge...

I once did a session with Martin where he thought I was mucking around and got a bit cross with me but I really wasn't  :D

As for where you are slow, fast, clumsy - I can be all three at once.

Sometimes though you just need the benefit of someone else's experience. It wasn't until H told me that you can take the kink at Spa (Massanet, maybe?) flat out in a 65 that I tried it for myself. Immediately took four seconds off.

Not quite sure what I am doing wrong at Mexico but 12 seconds off pole is pretty poor and I don't think that the setup is that bad or that I don't know the track. Clearly I am not 'trusting' the car enough and I feel like I need someone to ride 'in car' and say - turn earlier, go faster and you will make that. That sort of thing.

Did a 'no brakes' session with Geoff at Silvy and although it didn't take ten seconds off my lap, it did open my eyes as to what was possible and where my limits were.

Partly it is finding a setup that is kind when you lose control. Since my reactions are uncommonly slow - that is just a pure physical limitation I have - I need to be able to correct very late. It may be my poor abilities but I just can't 'feel' the setup so I go for a conservative setup that I know will work but is slow. Maybe I have reached Clive's 'plateau'.

Anyway - I am off topic now.

Idea is for a 'driving school of some kind.

Could not agree more!


You must have caught him on a bad day. Get back on Paul. The few drivers I see on a regular basis cover all abilities but we always wait for each other after spins and shift-r's etc and group back up for some close racing. The idea is not to hot lap but to get used to the car handling and track in close racing and as a consequence I think your speed can improve. Plus its just fun. Sure if someone is testing something specific and wishes to practice online alone they only need to make that clear in chat.

The real problem is finding time for this practice, now that I cannot help you with.

If I appeared to be annoyed, it's more likely I was bemused.  There is an unspoken rule, which says in order to learn how to race, you must first learn to drive fast enough.  The closer in speed you are, the more time you're likely to spend in serious combat.  Your Server helps all of us, who choose to use it, and I'm happy to be your tour guide, some of the time. ;)

It was Masta.  :D Well, for such things, you can learn them from watching a replay or someone driving online, yeah. It's not really learning though, because what you really want to learn is how to figure out the best lines on your own, not just copy someone else's lines for each track. I admit I fail to figure out the best lines on a new or less known track sometimes, but usually I get it right. It's something you can learn to do while you analyze the track in more detail.

As for Mexico, watching the WR years ago was an eye opener for me and I strongly suggest anyone who hasn't seen that to take a look. The lines are much different than the default groove.

I've always struggled there and suspect it is to do with my lines as much as anything else. I've got good results in the Brabham on other tracks in Privateers this season.

Next time I might try regrooving.

60 fps patch - my computer can run it. But im entirely against it. 1. It doesnt look better. 2. It doesnt run better. 3. Laptimes are invalid for Gplrank!!!!!!

65 - I think it would be good to have 3 divisions, and with some car variety. Maybe free choice for novices and a point system in intermediate division. In gpl cars arent that diferent form one another, unless you know how to drive them. For novices, the diference btw bt7 and a lotus is nonexistent.

Track choice is good imo, but I learn tracks wery eazely. It wouldnt be bad to have a track repeated in several divisions, 2-3 times maybe.

50 percent rule, if intended to force safer driving, doesnt work imo, because 50 percent as a goal looks too far away, sometimes unreachable. Many drivers would probably say "screw this, i wont reach 50 percent anyway, lets have fun racing while it lasts". 20 or 30 percent would be better imo, and the grid will be spaced enough till then, and it could even be inplemented in more divisions.

10 second pitstop is confusing for Gt's, but the rest is fine. Enforced teams/team restrictions are some things I dont like too much.

1. I don't agree. Its a 100% better for my eyes. It looks better if you get it right! 36 versus 60 fps must be better  ;D

2. It runs way smoother, you have better control of your car.

3. No! I upload every lap in GPLrank, if its done with 60 or 36fps, there is no difference in the .ini  ::)
   Maybe with the WR where a rpy is needed but most of us don't do these... ;D

"Roll up, roll up - get your free votes in here!"  I'm doing my Vosblod impersonation - only 2 days remaining, to vote on midseason items listed hereabouts.  Only one vote, per item, per customer.  Hurry up, before the dogma is unleashed! :D

Hadn't released it had gone so quick but yes two days left re voting.

Well, it runs in 60 fps in training, but in real race it won go over 40 anyway...  And maybe it has something to do with my laptop screen, that doesnt depend on the refresh rate, but i was seriously unable to spot any difference... Also it sometimes it wildly jumps from 20 to 50 and back, and that is allready annoyng...


Maybe it can be uploaded... but i wasnt able to make any PB's to upload while i was testing... my control sucks anyway, but thats not the point. Not one difference = I dont want it.

So how can you say its not better, if your Laptop is not able to do it!?
Its ok to say I don't want it cause I can't do it ;)

With the PCs I use there is a max of 1-2 frames difference between 60,14 and 58,95 FPS even on hard tracks like Monza10k.

That's the problem, Axel, not everyone has the machine to run it properly. That's the main factor against enforcing it in a league, as it would simply leave some members out of contention.

it is better to stay on 36fps mode if you hace sucj a bad jumos ,lol .
[/quote]

Just to let you know re an idea regarding server starting that has been raised;
Occasionally, as you will know, we have the odd issue starting servers which means race starts are sometimes delayed to beyond 9pm.
The suggestion is we launch the servers between 8.30 and 9pm with qually set for a 9.30pm race start so any server issues can be dealt with earlier on and avoid delays. This would result in Qually time becoming longer then the current 30 minutes, ie it may be up to an hour.

How do people feel about that? OK if someone gets on the server early and there are very few, or no, other drivers they might get a clear lap, but the chances of a good slipstream are reduced. Would it be an unfair advantage for those who can turn up early? There may also be issues re 'reserves' but I'm sure we can overcome that.

Anything that ensures races don't start late has got to be good. I personally like the idea of a longer qualification time and would use it for finalising race setup as well as setting a time for grid position. Interested to see what others think.

IMO the 30 minutes qualification rule should stay, even if you launch the server earlier with a longer qual duration. No car should go out until it says 30 minutes remaining or less. Otherwise I agree with the rule because I believe I proposed it in Igor chat recently.  ;D

Can't see it really mattering if people get on track earlier.  As you say, it's swings and roundabouts; get a clear lap and no tow or grab a tow with others on track.

We're not racing for millions of pounds here, does it really make that much of a difference by getting 10 minutes or so extra on track?

If I were that good a driver to make a huge difference then I'd probably be doing it for real!

As long as it doesn't mess the moderator / server starter around too much by having to turn up early himself, then it sounds like a reasonable option to start the server early to prevent any late mishaps which may result in a late night for some in the time zones ahead of the UK.

Well, I've been given a number of warnings for going earlier than the 30 minutes, so it would be odd if the rule is suddenly going to be changed so drastically. And yes, in fact it does matter for Qualifying, because in hotlapping there's a lot more luck involved. The more attempts you get, the higher the chance to get a fast lap. With UKGPL no rule forbidding esc-enter and number of attempts when you crash/blow up during Qualifying, the more time you have the better your chances of a good starting position.

Fair point.

I don't mind either way.  I guess it makes sense to keep it consistent across the divisions.

I would like to make a comment about the chassis "points" tally for Privs Cup ,

Wouldd like to hear your opinions on the fact that the Lotus chassis is "way" too cheap  :o

Also the gap between the other faster chassis Fez etc.  and escp on the faster tracks,  is too wide.

IMO the points tally needs reviewing to encourage faster racers to use the slower cars throughout the season , and thus giving those racers with lesser talents a bigger piece of Privvy Pie.

 

Regarding Bernie's point about points - they were devised to ensure different cars were all viable, and used. If one car is being overused, such as a Lotus, it's pointage could be adjusted.  But in Privateers, every car see's usage ATM, so I doubt much change is needed.

For qualification, for Servers to start early, do drivers teeth need to start gnashing at 45 minutes?  Why not start Servers at 45 or 60, upon pain of death, but no laps allowed until 30.  I'd suggest a race report, and penalty for anyone who puts in a freebie.

For reference, the tokens are currently set as follows.

Chassis	Tokens
Lotus	20
Eagle	17
Ferrari	15
Brabham	10
Cooper	5
Honda	3
BRM	0

The way I look at it is, with the 10 tokens you get at the start of the season, that gives you one "free" go with the Lotus. If you want to use it again, you'll need to save up by taking the BRM, or a combination of Cooper/Honda. Each of the quicker chassis is paired with a slower one (Lotus/BRM, Eagle/Honda and Ferrari/Cooper, with the Brabham in the middle). As Martin says this does force you to use the slower cars if you want the faster ones, and you usually do when we get to the tracks that need horsepower. We could drop the 10 tokens at season start, so you can only get a quick car by first using a slow one, but then the first race of the season would only have four different cars in it which seems a bit silly.

I suppose we could look at making the Lotus/Eagle/Ferrari more expensive, but that means they are less likely to be used during the season which seems a shame. I also don't see how this will help slower drivers Bernie as we all start with the same number of tokens.

Bernie could you elaborate further on how you would change the system?

I dont know really , I'm convinced we need some further handicap system to encourage the slower guys and to discourage the faster boys from walking away with all the trophies , of the top 10 drivers the gap between the top Ronnie, and bottom, Skids is over 200 points , I'm not a stats man but the results just seem to me to be a bit weighted in favour of the faster driver and wouldnt like to see drivers discouraged because they feel uncompetative or unable to compete .

Just my 2 bits for what its worth but I think the way to go would be some sort of "fastguy handicap" to ban the faster boys from using the faster chassis on fast tracks?

Something similar to Historics where you have 3 leagues but run alongside with the chassis points rules  iyswim .

The Works div suffers even worse as far as the above comments go,  IMO of course  ::)

I would also like to see shift R removed in Privs , for the simple reason it does nothing to discourage bad or careless driving , but think wev'e been there before with this one and the vote was to keep it in .

It looks like yours truly is taking on the organising of GT's in season 22.

It would be nice to have some feedback from those interested in taking part before I get too deeply into it.

Do we still run it as a "TEAM" competition or should it be on an individual basis? We only had 4 "proper" teams last season and 2 teams that used various drivers which got a little messy towards the end of the season. Maybe if we could assemble 5 or 6 full time teams things would be less confusing.

If we run as a team event, the token values for drivers and cars will be revised now that we have last seasons results and data to work on which would hopefully make the competition a little closer.

If the majority want it to be run as an individual event, my thoughts are to revise all the token values for the cars based on last seasons results and each driver would be given a token value that would enable them to "select/buy" 3 cars which they can use through the season.
But, the faster drivers would have fewer tokens to spend than those who are not so quick, so that the slower guys could afford to drive faster cars more often.

Hope that makes sense.

I think the points are a bit skewed this season as Ronnie was the outstanding driver in the field. Last season the title was pretty close Bernie, I'm sure you remember :) I don't think anything is weighted in favour of the faster drivers, everyone starts the season with the same number of tokens after all.

I know we run handicapping in the 66 and 65 series but AFAIK we never have for 67s. I think the philosophy of this series has always been different, in that it is more about driving excellence than close racing. I'm not saying that is wrong or right, just that's how it has been so far. You could say, if we've got handicapping elsewhere then why not have it in Grads? Personally I would be against it but it would nice to get everyone else's opinion, particularly those who haven't won races this season - are you discouraged by the current system guys?

Regarding shift-R I do take your point but I think we need to retain it in Privateers and the majority are in favour. In terms of your racecraft Bernie you are perhaps more suited to Works but that is chock full of aliens sadly!!

It's really down to when the division mod is available to start it hence leaving it flexible but allowing an earlier start to check for any blips. We could say no going on before 30 minutes but is having the server there too tempting. Not saying any of you guys would of course but, for example, someone new might forget. We would then have to do extra policing and start DQ'ing (or dishing out penalties) after the event, which is not ideal. Oh yes and it's also extra work checking for the moderator :o

Re the tokens suggestion. Personally I think the current system has produced a spread of chassis. Yes we are not handicapping the drivers by ability, as in some divisions, the reasoning being that is the 67's are considered the pinnacle (at least in terms of difficulty) so it was felt that if you are at that level you don't need a chassis advantage. Naturally you would expect the fastest/most able to generally win, I guess it would be a bit odd if they didn't. If you look at this seasons Privateers there were five different winners out of 14 or so regulars so it doesn't appear like anyone is completely dominating all the races. If that happened I guess they would consider moving to the Works. In Works there were six different winners and, if you remove the H factor, it may have been a much closer run affair.

I think the tokens and values are just about right.

Ronnie was the class of the field and I expect Ross will be next season if Ronnie moves up but the rest are quite close so we have quite a good spread.

As long as the circuits chosen have a good variety things should even out over the 10 races. At the end of the season the fastest guy should win the title as long as he is reasonably consistent and that's what happened.

If I'd won it then the handicap would have been wrong. ;)

Thoughts were requested on this idea - policing would be easy - arrivals at 30mins could check for illegal lap times. . . and perhaps skip the, pain of death bit, as this could frighten some newer members. :(

If we were going to have handicapping in the 67's Hannah and I should get a couple of laps start...

Seriously I think the handicapping is OK. If we change it someone will moan  ::) not that all of you lot aren't helpful and supportive at all times... <ahem>.

As regards the server starting, I intend to start it at 08:55 whatever with 35 mins qually. It is helpful however to have the extra window. I sometimes have appointments at 9pm (usually with the goggle box!)

I don't think I will police qually before that. The modding work is heavy enough. If somebody is that keen and wants a clean lap... no tow though...

Re the discussion on tokens/shift-r in the Privateers.

I think Bernie has a point re the current token system maybe favouring the faster drivers. However as Martin and I think Ross pointed out the current system was set to allow at least all of the cars to be used by all drivers. For the record I used the BRM fours times and the Brabham once to allow me to use the faster car of my choice (Ferrari, Eagle or Lotus) when I thought I would need it for a particular track. So maybe reducing the number of free tokens available at the start of the season for the faster drivers might prevent them from using the faster cars so often?

What puts me off the Works Division and attracts me to the Privateers is the Shift-r! To turn up on race night and have an incident of my own or someone else's making which ends my race early permanently is not appealing. I race to win but I race for fun. To be consistant and competitive I need to practice. The single shift-r, while not guaranteeting it, makes practice time worthwhile and a gives me a second chance to enjoy race night. This might not be ideal for the purists but I think it works and encourages more drivers to compete, just look at the entry numbers for the novices (multiple shift-r’s I know but you get the idea).

IMHO the 67's should be on a level playing field as per now, no handicap.  The tokens simply add a bit of a tactical element into the mix.  Some drivers are better at some tracks than others, others are better at different tracks, therefore the choice of faster chassis depends on the track you are better at.

There should be at least one series where by being 'fast' should not be penalised, there's enough of that elsewhere.

But then we would have a handicap system in Grads. Problem is, that Grads were created as division with no handicap at all.

IMO instead of trying to introduce handicapping into Grads. Fast drivers from Privateers should join Works, just as it was originally intended ;)

 :yes:

If Ronnie is going to stay in the Privateers then we should run mixed mod races and he can have a 65 chassis at Spa while I get the 69 anything....He'd still beat me though :D

Maybe the token allowance should also be handicapped - e.g. Ronnie starts with zero - I start with 20 - something like that...

Actually the privateers format is the one i most like and i wouldn't like to see it changed... it would even be nice to implement it in some other divisions. Its not in no way unfair to anyone, just the driver skill gap is too huge, more than in most other divs. I think there are drivers form -15 rank to +200, and i dont see anything wrong with that either.

Chasis handicapping doesnt have much result anyway... I think the last pro race at spa was won by pair of hondas, and lots of the historic races - by a mclaren... What I mean is, if hannah and Badblood were allowed to drive lotuses, and all others drove cooper, I doubth the results would be changed at all. It will have effect only on drivers that are wery close on skill level anyway, and I might win against Rainer or Cookie if they are limited to cooper... but i might win against them if I focus hard enough or get lucky too, and this is how race should be imo.

My original reply in response to the discussion initiated by Bernie was to offer a possible way of altering the tokens system for the challenging 67 cars in the Privateers, but not to provide a means for me to remain. I actually think the current token system is perfect and should not be changed.

For the record I am unlikely to sign up next season in Privateers its more a question of whether I can stomach the 67 cars in Works with no shift-r, can I be bothered to put in the effort in these cars with no back up plan? The 67 cars are my favourite by far so it would be hard not to but that's one for me to decide.

However, UKGPL provides plenty of other excellent championships in slightly less demanding cars so I am not overly concerned about my GPL fix next season!

Well, I half agree Ronnie.  I too like the fall back of having a reset, because of other commitments I cannot practice as much as I used to so elected to register in privs and for my own entertainment value took the challenge of the slower chassis BRM for the season; it's one of the most enjoyable 67 seasons I've had because most of the time I had someone to race with.

However, I also think 'Works' should be run on pro because it does promote, on the most part, more sensible driving with better risk management on the drivers behalf on overtakes.

Privs is rightly set to allow a reset because it is aimed at those learning to control these beasts while also providing a reasonable 'playground', for want of a better phrase, to allow those who don't wish to or are unable to commit to the added requirement or pressure of a pro race.

Nooooooooooooooooooooo.........

No argument from me Steve. My mantra has always been whatever the organisers/mods of UKGPL decide is good with me. Getting back to the subject of the mid season review, what has been discussed and proposed in the season 22 taster demonstrates that their is going to be plenty on offer to satisfy everyone, including me!!! I'm looking forward to it already, but first we still have Laguna Seca with its corkscrew and unlimited shift-r's, brilliant.

Ronnie you've been racing in Pro's and Historics with out a shift-R this season, how have you found that compared to Privateers?

In any case you are not forced to do Works if you don't want to. Bernie won the title last season and stayed in Privs, and Vos won it two years ago but is also in Privs now.

You and I have had some good battles this season and the standard you set is something for us all to try and beat.

Well it was worth a try ;)

Dilemma here , If only we could race both works and privs  ;D

No question 67's is the tops but dont really fancy being lapped 5 times per race , hard enough trying to keep on the same lap as Ronnie , even when using the same chassis   ::)

For the record I found last seasons Grads rewarding racing with the Coop which I used for most of the season , but succumbed to using lotus power for Spa and Zandy , but by then the chumpionship was all but decided .

Ronnie you've been racing in Pro's and Historics with out a shift-R this season, how have you found that compared to Privateers?

[/quote]

I have had some really good racing this season in the Pro's where I am at least familiar with the 65 cars and the Historics has had its moments even though the 66 cars are relatively new to me. BUT and its a huge but, the 50% minimum distance rule has been one gigantic bore. This rule alone made my mind up pretty early that any practice time I had would be directed towards the Privateers and Porsche Supercup and not potentially wasted at a stroke. If I understand correctly this rule is at least going to be dropped for the Pro championship next season.

This in combination with no shift-r was a bit of a fun killer (not the racing so much but time wasted practicing). However I understand and agree with the top drivers who want to race under Pro settings and I'm definitely not asking for any changes. I knew the rules when I signed up and was happy to give it a go. I have to confess at time times things got a little too serious for me last season, but I'm wiser now and up for the challenge and pretty sure I will be back in the Pro series.

Just my thoughts in response to your question and if I sound like I’m complaining, I’m not, honest.