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  • S22Sp Zeltweg: November 18, 2011
November 18, 2011, 11:07:46 PM +0000 - Zeltweg - UKGPL Season 22 (2011-2012) Specs
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
EvilClive
 HikiWazaRacing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 1 1:49.988
---
1 39:22.208
---
21 1:50.855
---
Goodyear  
jhalli
 
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 4 +1.417
---
2 +0.672
---
21 1:51.166
---
Goodyear  
fpolicardi
 Team7
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 6 +1.791
---
3 +8.506
---
21 1:51.697
---
Goodyear  
NickyIckx
 Antipasti Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 10 +2.197
---
4 +13.011
---
21 1:51.457
---
Goodyear  
Raoni Frizzo
 Team Coyote
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 2 +0.193
---
5 (+2) +20.258
---
21 1:50.458
---
Goodyear  
natan5
 
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 7 +1.859
---
6 +39.935
---
21 1:52.160
---
Goodyear  
NewBlood
 HikiWazaRacing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 15 +2.810
---
7 +40.559
---
21 1:52.175
---
Goodyear  
b_1_rd
 Clark-Hill Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 9 +2.041
---
8 +47.137
---
21 1:52.124
---
Goodyear  
Cookie
 Antipasti Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 5 +1.660
---
9 +48.787
---
21 1:52.131
---
Goodyear  
Ron-C
 NVRacing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 3 +1.086
---
10 +48.898
---
21 1:51.391
---
Goodyear  
il_lupo_mannaro
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 12 +2.702
---
11 +57.661
---
21 1:51.938
---
Goodyear  
Rainier
 
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 14 +2.781
---
12 +1:02.855
---
21 1:52.527
---
Goodyear  
JonnyO
 Team Coyote
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 11 +2.487
---
13 +1:20.628
---
21 1:54.166
---
Goodyear  
HendyNichols
 
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 19 +4.650
---
14 +1:28.928
---
21 1:53.165
---
Goodyear  
Billy Nobrakes
 Black Night Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 17 +3.907
---
15 +1:33.745
---
21 1:53.655
---
Goodyear  
bernie
 Soggy Bottom Racers Club
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 18 +4.018
---
16 +1:43.117
---
21 1:53.370
---
Goodyear  
DuFossa
 Team Coyote
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 8 +1.966
---
17 +2L
---
19 1:51.822
---
Goodyear  
blito
 Shadows
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 16 +3.700
---
18 +9L
---
12 1:53.239
---
Goodyear  
Geoff65
 Clark-Hill Racing
Brabham BT11 (Climax) F1 1965 13 +2.765
---
19 +10L
---
11 1:52.879
---
Goodyear  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Lotus 33 (Climax 1965) F1 1965 20 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Server replay time: 0h01m06s

Raoni's is slow off the line & loses a few places but starts to re-gain ground. He makes a pass coming out of the first bend but moves across from the inside to the left contacting with Cookie.
As per the rule book "In a corner, after a legitimate overtaking attempt the cars end up side by side. One driver moves over instead of staying on their own side of the track. Contact is made. Penalty for driver that moves over."

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 22 (2011-2012) Specs - Zeltweg (Österreichring) - Nov 18  (Read 10504 times)
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EvilClive
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« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2011, 12:59:43 PM +0000 »

That appears to have been one of THE great races for UKGPL .
I have not yet watched all of the replay to see all of the reported battles, but I will  Grin.

I am still buzzing this morning after my epic duel with Juha...what a race!!!!  eek w00t scared I had not anticipated this track delivering such an entertaining race for everyone. Slipstreams yes, but also plenty of opportunity to stick cars into the scenery and break the field up.

I was honestly surprised to get pole, but really chuffed to go sub 1:50, Ok only by 0.01 secs but still sub 1:50 Roll Eyes I had expected Raonni amongst one or two others to be quicker.

I got a good start, which I know from ( bitter) experience is essential here where T1 and T2 usually provide the opportunity for carnage on cold tyres and full tanks. So, I breathed a sigh of relief after exiting T2 and headed down towards Bosch Curve with a slender lead.
I tried ...I REALLY tried!! to get away from the pack in the early laps and break any chance of someone using the slipstream to catch me, but Juha refused to drop back and eventually even my front tyres were smoking. I just had to ease back for a couple of laps or risk going off. Juha took his opportunity and closed up somewhere around lap 8 I think.

From the moment Juha got on my tail I do not think either of us had anything in reserve. It was just 100% commitment and as each of us made a small error the other's momentum would give him the advantage at the next corner.
We both gave each other room when it looked like a pass was being attempted and considering how fast and close we raced for around 13-14 laps, it was amazing that neither of us made a mistake that might have ended both of our races.

It soon became obvious that, barring a major mistake by one of us, this race was going all the way to the flag! I was determined that I would at least be involved at the end of the last lap even if I did not win. I watched the laps count down and with 3 to go I made a small mistake that allowed Juha to pass and pull a small gap. i worked my socks off to get back on his tail as we started the last lap ( I am just as certain that Juha was doing his utmost to ensure that I did not!! lol).
I could not quite go for the pass at T1, next place would be into T2......still not close enough, so it would have to be braking for Bosch!! I got the tow out of T2 and stuck my nose under Juha's gearbox. On earlier laps I had tried to pass him by taking the wide line into Bosch, but this time I stuck it down the inside and I think I caught Juha unprepared and I was in his blind spot. Watching the replay of that moment It looks like I got fully alongside Juha ( who gave me room  thumbup1) but I think the distraction caused him to miss his braking point just enough to run wide and clip the wall. That was all the invitation I needed and I scooted through tight to the inside, reasonably confident that there was nowhere else before the flag that Juha could make a pass if I kept things on the racing line.

Big thanks to Juha for a great race, just sorry that one of us had to lose after such a dice.
Also a big grats to all the other drivers who seemed to be having mega battles and maintaining some very quick times. Despite driving 21 laps at a pace way below my previous PB Juha and I did not see a single backmarker!! you guys must be getting faster, which is worrying!  Undecided
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BadBlood
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« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2011, 01:39:04 PM +0000 »

I honestly don't know how you do it... I know that I am not brave enough through the corners and don't have enough trust in the car to turn in but my bets here is 1:54. Having improved a bit recently as I started to actually listen to my faster colleagues I thought I would show Mini what I could do... he was pulling close to 1:51. He was smooth and listening to Dad and making no mistakes... can't be that hard.

2:02, spin, 2:06, crash, 1:56 clean, 1:55 better, 1:55 best Sad 2:03 spin, 2:01 ran wide at Bosch

<sigh>

So off I went to Spa to practice. Had complained to Clive that the damn Mk2 just would not turn. He gave me a few pointers on setup.... Surely I could beat my best of 3:48.

What's that? Steering Ratio of 25:1 no wonder the bloody thing wouldn't turn!!!!

Set it to 11:1 and off we go, Eau Rouge, wobble, next one, whoops, hello grass.... calm calm... through Massanet - wahey, Masta at 194mph... wobble spin arrrrgggghhhh. Recover slide though Stavelot, visit a few hedges here and there. Marvellous... so much better 4:12  Grin
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EvilClive
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« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2011, 02:35:12 PM +0000 »

Methinks you might be trying/pushing just a little too hard Paul and I sympathise.
I can honestly say that whenever I get a PB it usually feels that it was a slow lap, because there was no drama and each corner flowed smoothly and more importantly I was not actually trying for a PB or pole. The string of fast laps alongside Juha last night were accidental. We were both concentrating on the racing and the times that happened  were a bi-product of our concentration.

I still do not consider myself as ultimately fast. There are other guys racing in UKGPL and GPL today who can always manage to put in a faster lap than I can, but maybe experience or Waza guile ( call it whatever you want  Roll Eyes Grin), allows me to make the best of what I can do.
Avoiding mistakes and crashes is a must if you want to be near the podium. A lift off the gas or braking 50 mtrs earlier might lose you 0.5 secs, but spinning into the boondocks will either put you completely out of the race or even if you are allowed a Shift-R you will have lost at least 30 secs by the time you have recovered and visited the pits.  The maths are not really difficult, and that was the first thing I did to try and improve my results..stay on the grey stuff!!! You will gain 20-30 secs on every car that goes off, guaranteed  Wink......simples.

I have just watched Joe's race and what he put together at Zeltweg is ( and I hate to say this to you Paul, lol) an almost text book improvement. Grats to Joe on listening to his Dad who abviously gave him the right advice!!.  Wink
 In past races he has shown that he can occasionally nail a fast lap in qually, but excitement or nerves undid all that work when it came to the race ( BTW I think we have all had "the shaky leg" when we suddenly realised that we were involved in our first real race with a chance of a best ever finish lol). But, at Zeltweg he drove smoothly and within his ability to put in consistant laps. His own admission that he waited for the guys in front to make the mistake and give him the chances was spot on. Watching his progress after he caught Jason, Steve and Du Fossa is worth looking at again for anyone who is new to GPL. Patience is a huge weapon in on-line racing.

Appearing to be brave through the corners only works if you have a setup that you trust. You have to be CERTAIN that the car will do what you want, when you want it to and KNOW where the limit is. Guessing or hoping will not work, because GPL will bite your ass if you give it the chance. So actually I am not brave, because as far as I am concerned I have done the Risk Assessment in qually and  I am at 95% most of the time, 100% only when I really have to and 105% when I fail to finish!! Outbraking Juha on the last lap was maybe 101%  Roll Eyes and scary!!
In last nights race I was using a setup for the BT11 that I evolved about 12-18 months ago over several races. It gets minor tweaks to gear ratios depending on the track and maybe an adjustment of ride height if the circuit demands it. But the basic setup stays the same and it means that I am driving the same car at all tracks and I have absolute confidence in what is going to happen when I stand on the brakes or turn the wheel, because it is the same that happened last race or the race before.

A lot of words are posted re setups, but until you have expoited the setup that you have ( even the default), to the point that each and every lap is within a few tenths and comfortable ( regardless of how fast that time is), then there is no real point in changing much. What is more important perhaps is recognising what the car is doing, that you DO NOT want it to do.
This is a result of the mixture of the cars setup and your driving style.

Then can you say, the present setup oversteers everytime I get on the gas and it spins. So, what you want is a modification to the setup that dials in more understeer under power OR modify your right foot to avoid wheelspin, squeeze on the power and learn to feel how much grip and control you have at 95% of the limit. Sometimes, simply leaving the car in a higher gear allows you to reduce the engine torque available and therefore the power delivery is smoother, even if you stamp on the gas pedal.

If we can meet up on a server soon and run a few laps where I can watch your progress, perhaps I can suggest where we( well actually you lol) can change setup or habits.
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« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2011, 05:07:24 PM +0000 »

unfortunately one of the faster drivers (making time up after Lap1 incedent )  decided to have a go up the inside just as we were approaching T1 .

This was me  Roll Eyes
Sorry Bernie but I kept the inside line with my wheel on this strange right borderline. You just pulled over to the right...

Phew, this was one of my hardest races ever!


Had a phantastic start from 5th, was 3rd after T1 where Raoni went wide and made me a red pinball for the rest of the field...
Recovering as last I made up lots of places, but I had such often been hit and thrown back again, I could not count these...
With this severely handicapped car, I never resetted, I managed to just keep Ron behind me in 10th place Grin

Aye , I knew you were close there somewhere but was concentrating too much on the corner , didn't really expect you to dive in there , rather thought you would draught by me down the next straight that would have been the sensible thing to do escpecially with your speed , my fault though for turning in , should really have kept wide but then we are all masters of hindsight . No hard feelings  Roll Eyes

Well at least not this time  Grin
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« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2011, 11:40:04 PM +0000 »

@Clive...

Wise words - I am thinking I can walk the walk but talking as well is just too much...

Joe did brilliantly and saved some half spins that would have had me in the grass. Impressive. The patience was all mine (lol). I kept telling him just to ignore the guys in front and put in steady laps and watched in amazement as he went faster and faster. He wanted to chase Natan but there were people behind who could take advantage and I told him just to do what he had been but the laps ran out. Joe and I may never actually race because he is going to be in the Inters before I get out of the Novices!!!

I know just what you are saying about fast laps feeling slow but I don't think I have a natural 'feel' for the cars. I just need a LOT more practice. I also find that when I am close to others I get too anxious and make mistakes....

ah well, vicarious enjoyment via Mini. It'll have to do...

Talking of meeting up on line, I did just that with Geoff and took three seconds off my best at Surfers! Just by following him round and seeing where he pushed and where he held back. It is quite amazing how much time you can lose in one or two corners...

Anyway, thanks for the advice. Now watch me f*@{ it up at Mexico...
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« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2011, 02:39:29 PM +0000 »

I guessed that there was some coaching from the sidelines LOL! 

I too noticed how his speed gradually increased lap after lap and I am almost ( but not quite because I like to keep my money  Wink) sure that he became so engrossed in the RACING that he forgot all about his SPEED. He was concentrating on the cars around him and where he was on the track..and the driving happened automatically. Yes!, he had to have a stable car to drive and the BT11 fits that requirement perfectly but he was proving that he could extract as much performance as those around him without any huge drama. That was how it was between me and Juha, 99% of my menatl faculties were focused on finding a way past Juha. The racing line was programmed on auto pilot and it was only when I had to take a different line, that I had to engage the other brain cell which has the characteristics of the setup held in RAM. Which comes back to knowing what the car will do close to the limit. My race was not without mistakes, my races never are!!  lol


When I was a noobie ( and believe me, I was the ultra noobie/accident waiting to happen), Clive Loynes was one of the wise sages around UKGPL and he reckoned that getting a slow corner dead right gained you more time than blasting through the fast sweeps.

His reasoning was, that through the fast sweeps the difference in speed between aliens and mere mortals is ( in percentage terms) quite small, Whereas if you are ultra tidy and accurate around a slow tight corner,  getting the braking right...... smoothly through the apex .......and getting on the power smoothly and early you might gain a whole second? A clear example of that is the sharp right hander before the hairpin at Mexico. Actually, I would say that it is one of the hardest corners to get absolutely right from all of those on the original Pappy tracks.
If you go in too fast, or on the wrong line, then  you are going to be fighting for traction and control on the exit. But get it smooth and calm and you can apply the gas early and smoothly and hit the next short straight at max speed, gaining a considerable amount of time.

I cannot claim to ever get a corner 100% right, but I can see what he meant. Controlled and smooth beats wild and erratic every time. Roll Eyes

As for feel. Unfortuantely we do not get inertia feedback from GPL as one might in a full 6 axis simulator, so you do not feel the rear wheels beginning to break away or spinning as you might in a real car. But there are subtle clues that I find I can "discern". When the FF on my wheel goes light mid corner, as the slip angle of the car around a corner begins to increase etc. The secret is to be aware of those things and make small adjustments to correct. Big adjustments almost always end in disaster, as a sudden lift off the gas or a violent twitch on the wheel will totally unsettle the car.

A partial "confidence lift" mid corner might be enough to allow the tyres to reagin some traction and hold the car on the line that you want. Similarly, stamping on the go-pedal usually breaks the traction of the rear tyres and results in a spin, whereas a gradual increase in power as you accelerate out of a corner will probably keep things very neat and tidy, provided the setup and gearing are somewhere near the correct values.

I should be able to get on line later today and would be more than happy to do some Mexico or Spa laps with you.
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« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2011, 02:53:45 PM +0000 »

Quote
Controlled and smooth beats wild and erratic every time.

But not half as much fun  Grin
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« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2011, 04:04:30 PM +0000 »

Quote
Controlled and smooth beats wild and erratic every time.

But not half as much fun  Grin

I never claimed that I was "controlled and smooth"  Roll Eyes Wink
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« Reply #53 on: November 21, 2011, 10:55:16 AM +0000 »

I should be able to get on line later today and would be more than happy to do some Mexico or Spa laps with you.

Sorry Clive, only just saw this. I was a bit busy yesterday but as I said to Fulvio, I was consistent at Spa with 3:4x laps - he was very rude and laughed!  Angry Grin

It was depressing to see the Porsches just disappear on the corners... I was hoping not to get lapped by one but a Stop n Go put paid to that...
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« Reply #54 on: November 22, 2011, 06:28:09 PM +0000 »

Did anyone want to race at Zeltweg but not get an opportunity becuase the server was full?
Currently we have 13 Full Time & 13 Reserve drivers - which is just about the tipping point for a second server.
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« Reply #55 on: November 22, 2011, 07:31:56 PM +0000 »

Did anyone want to race at Zeltweg but not get an opportunity becuase the server was full?
Currently we have 13 Full Time & 13 Reserve drivers - which is just about the tipping point for a second server.

Yes Bill, I had a problem and left the server, then when I tried to rejoin Hendy had taken my place.
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« Reply #56 on: November 22, 2011, 07:55:48 PM +0000 »

I would be in on and off for this one, so make it 14 part timers if you add the second server. I cant commit full time, and frankly wouldnt want to sit in the chatroom waiting to see if I can or cannot get a place to race as a part timer, probably theres someone else in the same position as me. Similar problem with the 66s. I guess it is a good problem to have though, I remember at the end of season 20 there were talks about suppressing the specs Shocked! Well done to you Billy, and the new format for this one with longer races is actually a pretty good idea for me.
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« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2011, 12:04:44 AM +0000 »

Moderating report now published.
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