GTL Car Classes - For Reference

[NevRichard]

After extensive testing I can confirm the following facts:-

TC65

The Abarth and the Jag Mk2 are the slowest here, and about the same pace as each other.
The Mini is next, a couple of seconds a lap quicker on most tracks.
The Cortina, Alfa, Mustang and Falcon are the quick boys, with a very small advantage going to the Alfa over the Cortina, and the Falcon over the Mustang.

GTC65

Haven't tested all of these yet, but here is what I have tested:

The Lotus Elite is the slowest car here - similar pace to the Abarth.
The Alpine, Healey, 300 SL and GT350 are next.
The quickest cars in the group are the Cobra, GT40 and TVR.

TC76

The slowest cars here are the 914, the Capri 2600 and the Escort.
The quickest cars are the Pantera, the 906 and the 911. The rest are all nearly as quick as these three.

[greg130]

As an experiment I have done a some laps at Donington National in all the cars, just to see how they compare to each other.

This is not a 'look how quick I am' as all the laps were done with minimal tweaks to the default setup and just the one or two clean laps, apart from the GT40 as I wanted to see if it really could compete with the 76 cars.
With this in mind these laps are nothing special and easily beaten, however I do consider them to be a fair reflection of each cars ability and how easy they are (or not) to just pick up and drive for the average driver.
I tried to be as fast as possible in every car however I did find some cars a lot harder to drive than others (AC Cobra for example)

Anyway the laps are below :
                                                                     Lap Time                      GTL Rank Benchmark Comparison

FORD CAPRI RS GTC76                                     01:16.896                      - 00:01.103   
PORSCHE 906  GTC76                                      01:18.431                        00:00.431   
PORSCHE 911 RSR  GTC76                                01:18.695                        00:00.695   
BMW CSL  GTC76                                             01:18.875                        00:00.875 
DETOMASO PANTERA  GTC76                           01:19.554                        00:01.554   
FORD ESCORT RS  GTC76                                  01:19.557                       00:01.557   
FORD GT40  GTC65                                           01:19.945                      - 00:01.054   
PORSCHE 914-6  GTC76                                    01:20.132                        00:02.132   
CHEVROLET CORVETTE  GTC76                         01:20.928                        00:02.928   
LOTUS ELAN 26R  GTC65                                  01:22.031                        00:01.031   
SHELBY DAYTONA COUPE  GTC65                      01:22.695                        00:01.695 
AC COBRA  GTC65                                            01:22.972                        00:01.972   
TVR GRIFFITH 400  GTC65                                 01:23.095                        00:02.095   
JAGUAR E-TYPE  GTC65                                    01:25.287                        00:04.287      
AUSTIN HEALEY 3000  GTC65                             01:25.591                        00:04.591   
MERCEDES 300SL  GTC65                                  01:25.914                         00:04.914   
FERRARI 275 GTB/C  GTC65                                01:26.014                         00:05.014   
RENAULT ALPINE A110  GTC65                           01:26.137                        00:05.137   
SHELBY GT350  GTC65                                      01:26.521                        00:05.521   
FORD FALCON  TC65                                          01:27.750                         00:01.750   
ALFA ROMEO GTA  TC65                                     01:27.903                        00:01.903 
LOTUS CORTINA  TC65                                      01:28.447                         00:02.403  
AUSTIN MINI COOPER S  TC65                             01:28.515                        00:02.515   
FORD MUSTANG  TC65                                       01:28.575                        00:02.575   
LOTUS ELITE  GTC65                                         01:29.583                        00:08.583   
JAGUAR MKII  TC65                                           01:31.285                        00:05.285   
ABARTH 1000TC  TC65                                      01:32.845                        00:06.845


Obviously there has been a fair amount of debate as to which class certain cars belong in, hopefully this will help us to to decide.  It would be interesting if some other guys could do the same at different tracks to get a more accurate picture.

Anyway what can we draw from these times ?

I'm not very fast.
The GT40 is fast but no match for the majority of 76 cars.
The Elite would be more at home in the TC65 class.

Hope this helps guys.

[Jeffrey]

What an effort Greg, well done .
I think the same about the Elite, I test drove it for the league once and it was so slow, that I was faster in an Alfa .
The GT40 is a bigger problem. I could compete with GTC76 cars at Dijon once, but on other tracks it won't be very competitive i guess. Not the power that will lack, but the handling in the GTC76 is, in average a bit more stable (more advanced).
The Shelby GT350 is just a pimped Mustang, so that one hangs between the two lower classes.
The rest is not a big surprise. The Corvette has tracks to shine on, same as the Pantera. And I think you like the Capri best, because I don't think it's the "best" car (here we go again ) in it's class.
Very good post, should help alot.

(Now do all the other tracks in all the cars and report back in 75 years  )

[greg130]

(Now do all the other tracks in all the cars and report back in 75 years  )

No chance mate  , to be honest it only took a few hours spread over 3 nights, no big deal.

I agree on the GT40 issue, tough decision.  Initially it appears too quick for the other cars but you have to remember that the fastest car is not always the most competetive. 
In GTR I was always faster in the Saleen but found out the hard way that its a poor choice for racing due to its tyre wear and fuel consumption. The same can be said of the Lambo, great car, real fast but boy does it drink the juice, bit like the GT40 in that respect.

I think out of the 3 races so far its a fair indication of the GT40's capabilities, not many people have chosen it and it is yet to win a race.  Sure its fast on the big long straights, seems to handle ok but certainly not the easiest or most fun car to drive.  Last night 4 GT40's started the race and only the 1 finished, not particularily good statistics.  It would make an interesting experimant to see a lot more 40's in a single race and see how people got on with it.

Anyway, come on guys who else wants to put a comparison up, perhaps one at a long track like Monza and one at somewhere twisty like Mondello.

[Paul968]

On the subject of the GT-40:

You can't judge anything on how many people have driven it - Some don't have it, some want to try other cars, season 0 is not so important and so people will be less keen to take quick cars (like me) and many will feel they haven't had time to learn it. A proper season is a totally different kettle of fish though.

Look at your times at Donington Greg - You are 3 SECONDS faster than any other car in the GT-40. Doesn't that tell you something? 3 seconds is an age in one lap! Yes, it's tricky on the limit, but drive it just below and it is very hard to match (let alone overtake, and this is a key). Even on a track which should suit it least it was clearly the fastest, and would have won if Ruskas had put in enough fuel. There were no GT40s at Anderstorp and driver skill outweighed car choice at Dijon - even then the GT40s dominated the minor places.

I agree with the other Elan drivers about it not being the soft option at Mondello. I was having to drive every corner on the ragged edge just to keep up and spun several times as a result. Beating a 1.02 in the Elan is not easy. I went out in the GT40 after and was under 1.01 within 10 laps. I'd be interested to know what is a good time for you at Modello is in a Lotus btw? Have you tried competing with a GT40 in a lesser car? It is an exercise in frustration unless you can get ahead, but the GT40 can take chances in qual so that's unlikely.

The point of all this is that IMO we want to avoid the situation where one car spoils what would otherwise be a fair fight. If people feel obliged to take the GT40 because their main competition are then it will be a sad day for the league. The other powerful cars take real skill to drive quickly - I don't believe this is true of the GT40 and is the reason I'd rather see it moved out of the GTC class.

Paul

[greg130]

Look at your times at Donington Greg - You are 3 SECONDS faster than any other car in the GT-40.

Yes it tells me its a fast car which I have done a lot of laps in.

I'd be interested to know what is a good time for you at Modello is in a Lotus btw?

What exactly are you trying to say here Paul ?
Did a couple of laps earlier in the week, 1:03 not pushing to hard, nice and steady pace. I guess 1:02 would be a good time with race fuel.

Even on a track which should suit it least it was clearly the fastest, and would have won if Ruskas had put in enough fuel.

Yes it was the fastest by 0.001's, and whilst I finished 2nd my fastest lap was only good enough for 6th.  Does that tell you anything ?

I had hoped to be constructive my putting all those lap times up, not start another flame war about the GT40, Elan or whatever.
Paul why don't you pick a track, do the laps and see what times you come up with.
Ideally we should have all the times from 4 or 5 laps and take the average, that way we could make an accurate decision on all the cars capabilities instead of just going with what you think. Now obviously I like the GT40 and for my money it would be a shame if it wasnt allowed to race, however if it was decided that was the case then no big deal.  Is it going to be the case where we are not allowed to use the fastest car in each class ? What if the capri wins loads of races or the alfa ?  Just food for thought.

[Paul968]

It's not a flame war Greg - just a discussion.

The reason I need to know your times in a lotus is that I can't judge how your GT40 compare to my lotus ones without knowing your lotus ones.

What I know is that on an average track, I will be significantly quicker than the other cars in the GT40, even without great experience driving it. I don't have the time to do laps in every car, but Mondello was a good example of a twisty track that should suit the elan vs the GT40, and even then the GT40 is quicker - easily quicker. When the track suits the GT40 it romps away. The comparison seems enough to make the point - if the elan can't hope to compete even on it's best circuit and gets hammered elsewhere then why take the Lotus (and remember the Lotus is one of the BEST cars).

This isn't just what I think btw - most of the quick drivers have said the same if I remember correctly.

Doing a handful of laps is not going to help that much IMO. Unless you have a chance to learn how to exploit a car, you won't be anywhere near it's best time. You can only judge times from people who have done a good number of laps or have exceptional talent (like Ruskus perhaps). I chose to compare the Elan to the GT40 because I have driven the Elan enough to know I'm on the pace - more than I am the GT-40, anyway. The others I'm not qualified to say.

This isn't personal Greg - it's just that if you want to have a system where the fast drivers take slower cars (or avoid races where we all drive GT40s) then allowing the GT40 is a bad decision IMO.

Paul

[greg130]

No problem Paul, just sounded like you were having a pop at my driving.  Glad that you wern't, iv'e never pretended to be a quick driver, all of my good results have come from normally being able to stay on the track, same last night.  I wish I was quicker but its not the case so we make the best of what we have.
Onto the GT40, yes it fast, of course it is and if it turns out that you need to drive the 40 to be in the points then perhaps it would spoil the racing for some guys.  As I said if its decided that we cant take it the no big deal, just a shame imho.

As it happens iv'e just done a few laps at Mondello in the Lotus, average time would be in the mid to high 1:03's, around 1 sec of my 40 pace, but again I have done a lot more laps in the 40 and probably have a better setup for it.  Of course the 40 is going to thrash it on the bigger circuits but so is the Daytona, Cobra and TVR, thats the nature of the beast i'm affraid.
Take Dijon for example, that s/f straight has got to be one of the longest on the racing circuit, the 40 was 240kph + down there, bit slower in the corners mind.

I still think it would be intersting to let it run for the 1st season and see what happens.
Oh well guess we will see what happens after a few more races, i'm going to enjoy driving it while I still can 

[Paul968]

Hi Greg

Onto the GT40, yes it fast, of course it is and if it turns out that you need to drive the 40 to be in the points then perhaps it would spoil the racing for some guys.  As I said if its decided that we cant take it the no big deal, just a shame imho.

This isn't exactly the problem. The scenario I want to avoid is the threat of several mid-field drivers turning up in GT 40s. This will force the quick drivers to take at a minimum one of the other fast cars (TVR, Daytona Coupe, Cobra, Elan) and even then they wont be sure of beating the GT 40s. This will mean that the idea of fast drivers taking slower cars won't happen much. Remember that with the proposed point multiplier system you won't know what everyone else will take, so with the threat of GT 40s turning up the fast drivers will HAVE to take a fast car just in case they do.

As it happens iv'e just done a few laps at Mondello in the Lotus, average time would be in the mid to high 1:03's, around 1 sec of my 40 pace, but again I have done a lot more laps in the 40 and probably have a better setup for it.  Of course the 40 is going to thrash it on the bigger circuits but so is the Daytona, Cobra and TVR, thats the nature of the beast i'm afraid.

I don't see it like this - the Daytona, Cobra and TVR are much harder to extract quick times from (see your Donington times) and most mid-field drivers will be quite a bit slower in them than a GT 40. I was able to compete against the TVRs at Anderstorp using the Ferrari - I couldn't have done that against GT 40s.

Take Dijon for example, that s/f straight has got to be one of the longest on the racing circuit, the 40 was 240kph + down there, bit slower in the corners mind.

Yes, but part of that is that the GT40 can carry speed onto the straight too, as well as brake well for the next corner.

In an ideal world I would also like to see the GT 40 included - it feels the most like a racing car of all the GTC-65 cars. I just think that allowing it will rule out a host of the midfield cars from the mix - E-Type, Ferrari, Alpine, even the Elan and Corvette look like also rans if the GT 40s turn up, and drivers may have to assume they will and choose a fast car just in case.

Btw, I did half an hour last night at Nurb Sprint in the GT40 - It is mighty fast :-)

Paul

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

The scenario I want to avoid is the threat of several mid-field drivers turning up in GT 40s. This will force the quick drivers to take at a minimum one of the other fast cars (TVR, Daytona Coupe, Cobra, Elan) and even then they wont be sure of beating the GT 40s. This will mean that the idea of fast drivers taking slower cars won't happen much. Remember that with the proposed point multiplier system you won't know what everyone else will take, so with the threat of GT 40s turning up the fast drivers will HAVE to take a fast car just in case they do.

It's a bit of a "mutually assured destruction" scenario though. A mid pack driver won't turn up in a GT40, knowing that the realy fast drivers will turn up in one of the "best of the rest" cars, beat them anyway, and scoop relatively more points because they're not in a GT40.

Meanwhile, some of us mid-pack drivers aren't going to dream we can beat Ruskus and Pero just by using a GT40, and instead turn up in our E-Types, Healeys and Ferraris and hope to put one over on the other mid-pack drivers by being consistent and not falling off the track.

[Paul968]

True, but if in doubt drivers will tend to take the faster car, as it gives them a better chance of being in the points. The issue here is the size of the gap between different cars. Take the GT40 out of the equation and it never gets too big.

[greg130]

True, but if in doubt drivers will tend to take the faster car, as it gives them a better chance of being in the points. The issue here is the size of the gap between different cars. Take the GT40 out of the equation and it never gets too big.

Well I don't think we will find out for sure until the season starts.
I fully agree with Dave on this, there is no way a mid-pack driver like me can hope to compete with the likes of Ruskus, Pero, Jon, etc etc in the same car.  If on the other hand they took the TVR/Cobra/Daytona and I was in the GT40 then I'm going to give them a run for their money but its already been proven that more often than not the fastest guys are still going to win no matter what they drive.

The driver results/history page tends not to lie and is a fair indication of where on average you can expect to come.  For me I tend to get a podium every 3rd race or so (51 races, 17 podiums) and to be honest I see no particular reason why this should change (hopefully).  Obviously drivers come and go, improve their times etc etc.
My point is that if we all drove GT40's then nothing would change, if a few guys drove GT40's then sure they have a better chance of winning but unless they are in the top few aliens I just cant see it happening.  So what do I drive if Pero, Ruskus are in the GT40, well as Dave said I have a better chance of points in an E-Type, Elan, Renault etc.
All a bit complicated really and only time will tell whats best for the league.
However I just love blasting down the straight at 240kph, childish I know but hey its only fun.  Wonder what I shall drive tonight 

[Paul968]

I just reread this

A mid pack driver won't turn up in a GT40, knowing that the realy fast drivers will turn up in one of the "best of the rest" cars, beat them anyway, and scoop relatively more points because they're not in a GT40.

Why should the midpack driver expect to get the same points as the fastest? They wouldn't be anywhere near in equal machinery and the idea of the multiplier is to allow drivers to race close together on track but to have better driver win on points because he drove a harder car. As I see it the mid pack driver may very well take the GT40 knowing that he will do well even if Ruskus & co take the Cobra - there are lots of other drivers to beat than the top three.

[Paul968]

Well I don't think we will find out for sure until the season starts.

I thought the idea of season 0 was to find this out in advance? Surely we don't want to have to run a whole season with the wrong mix?

Anyway, I seem to remember you saying this a few nights ago:

Just for fun I will take the GT40 at Mond Nat, guess if I do well it really will be the final nail in the GT40 coffin. 

Isn't 2nd place good enough? 

IMO we need to sort this out before a full season starts.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

I just reread this

A mid pack driver won't turn up in a GT40, knowing that the realy fast drivers will turn up in one of the "best of the rest" cars, beat them anyway, and scoop relatively more points because they're not in a GT40.

Why should the midpack driver expect to get the same points as the fastest? They wouldn't be anywhere near in equal machinery and the idea of the multiplier is to allow drivers to race close together on track but to have better driver win on points because he drove a harder car. As I see it the mid pack driver may very well take the GT40 knowing that he will do well even if Ruskus & co take the Cobra - there are lots of other drivers to beat than the top three.

But as a mid-pack driver, I'm not going to take the GT40 just to beat other mid-pack drivers, because my points haul will suffer compared to the guys I beat but who took better paying cars. It only becomes an issue if all the mid-pack drivers choose the GT40, but I can't see that being likely because it's just not that nice or that easy to drive.