GTL Car Classes - For Reference

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

IMO we need to sort this out before a full season starts.

Pragmatically there's just no way to do that in a complete and thorough way. It's like Shroedinger's cat; the points system will affect people's choice of car, and the distribution of car choice will affect how we structure the points system. Until we open the box we can't say whether the GT40 is dead or alive.

We had exactly the same problem before UKGTR Season 1 - we didn't know for sure whether one or two cars would dominate and we'd end up with a field full of 360s and 550s. I know that neither is as dominant as the GT40, and that's why we're discussing doing something to the points system to discourage the use of it. But we won't know for sure until an official season starts in earnest.

[Aagramn]

Yes, I suspect people's choices of cars will be different in a competitive league. If we go for a multiplyer scheme I think the points paying positions will need to go a long way down the grid. I took the Healy at Dijon Short and managed a record time for it on GTLRank, out that still only put me 19th on the grid. I'm sure several drivers on here could beat my time, but they would have needed another 2 seconds to break into the top ten.

[Paul968]

OK - although the comments up to now very much gave the impression that we WERE trying to decide now (see Greg's comment after Dijon).

[greg130]

Isn't 2nd place good enough? 

Yep 2nd place would initially appear good, however I was only 6th fastest in the race.
 
You would have easily beaten me in the Elan had you kept it on the track.  

Would I have beaten you if I was driving the Elan and kept it on the track, maybe, maybe not, but its not really that important.

Point to note:
Out of the 4 GT40's to start only 1 finished. (I'm not counting Shark)
Out of the 5 Elan's to start 4 finished.
Does this tell us something ? Is the GT40 really that easy for most drivers ?

You cant really argue against the fact that the GT40 is the fastest car in a straight line, however is it the fastest over a whole race ? In the right hands yes, but so is the TVR, Cobra, Daytona.  This has been proven over the 3 races so far, try as I might in the GT40 I am never going to beat the quick guys.
Should be intersting to see how many 40's turn up tonight and how they get on.

Personally I'm for leave it in (honestly  ) but if you're going to drive it then drive it all season not just on the big tracks.

[greg130]

OK - although the comments up to now very much gave the impression that we WERE trying to decide now (see Greg's comment after Dijon).

Thats me just getting carried away with myself. 

[Paul968]

You would have easily beaten me in the Elan had you kept it on the track.   

I've said before, I fell off trying to drive fast enough to keep up with the s****g GT 40s - an exercise in frustration.

Point to note:
Out of the 4 GT40's to start only 1 finished. (I'm not counting Shark)

Come now - of the other 3 one ran out of petrol and another was right behind you a few laps from the end when it drove into the pits (lack of fuel too?)! This wasn't about it being hard to drive.

Out of the 5 Elan's to start 4 finished.
Does this tell us something ? Is the GT40 really that easy for most drivers ?

No, I'm sure it's not, but in a proper season with time to practice those drivers will be much better prepared.

You cant really argue against the fact that the GT40 is the fastest car in a straight line, however is it the fastest over a whole race ? In the right hands yes, but so is the TVR, Cobra, Daytona.  This has been proven over the 3 races so far, try as I might in the GT40 I am never going to beat the quick guys.

I would strongly dispute that the TVR, Daytona and Cobra are as fast over the race as the GT40 (in the right hands).

Should be intersting to see how many 40's turn up tonight and how they get on.

Maybe you should come along in an Elan and see what it's like being on the receiving end ;-)

Personally I'm for leave it in (honestly  ) but if you're going to drive it then drive it all season not just on the big tracks.

But the rules allow free choice, so that won't happen will it?

[Jeffrey]

- The Elan can keep up with the GT40 on some tracks, but in order to do that you must drive at 100% of your skill the whole race. While with the GT40 driving it at 80% and leaving some space to spare is enough to keep most cars behind. Not losing momentum in other cars than the GT40 is very crucial to give the GT40 a scare.

- Even after putting 2 laps of extra fuel in it, I still ran out of fuel half way down tha last lap, leading by 6s. I joined with just 7 minutes so go on Qually, and I had only 4 timed laps. Still with little practice (and little love for/) with the GT40, I could have won it, even on Mondello, which is the worst track for this car.

- The stats that so many GT40's didn't finish says nothing about the reliability of the cars. It's not like it broke down because of mechanical failures, just by accidents.

- The Cobra and Daytona are very fast cars, but for me they are bad for endurance racing. At that race on Dijon, after just 9 out of 20 laps, my tires were getting worst and
worst, and after 18 laps they were completely gone. My braking points were getting earlier and the handling was getting very bad. In the last lap I lost almost 2s because the GT40 behind could still push it, while I was filling my pants by keeping it on the road .

- I'm in for the pointsystem, but will it allow changes of cars throughout the season, or is that not decided yet?

[greg130]

Me drive the Elan Paul, now youre just being daft mate  

Seriously we can debate it forever and as entertaining as it is lets just see what happens.

[Paul968]

I have a suggestion for the car swapping issue (or 2 variations on a theme).

Option 1 - drivers nominate a car at the start the season. If they use this car they get the normal multiplier. They can opt to use any other car for any track, but they suffer a reduction in the multiplier (e.g 2/3s?) each time they do so. This will encourage drivers to stick with their favourite car most of the time but allow the odd change to cope with very unsuitable tracks.

Option2 - Drivers don't have to nominate at the start of the season, but each time they change car they suffer a multiplier reduction for that race. This will have a subtly different effect. Drivers can do half a season in 1 car and half in another and only suffer the penalty for 1 race. It will discourage occasionally swapping out to to a better car for a particular circuit and then swapping back.

I prefer option 2, as it means that drivers will have to accept the rough as well as the smooth over the season - the Elan driver can take some consolation from the fact that although he gets blitzed at Monza the cobra driver will be struggling at Mondello next week.

I expect there may be other variations on this theme. Any comments?

[greg130]

Good idea Paul.
Iv'e always been for full time league drivers nominating a car and sticking to it all season.  Not that I have stuck this principle.

Infact what I would do is kind of a reverse allocation of cars.
There would be say 30 cars avaliable to pick from, some duplicates where appropiate.
The full time drivers get 1st pick in reverse order from their average finishing position.
So the slower drivers pick first and so on.
If you are one of the super quick guys you may still end up with your'e preferd choice depending on who chose what.
You the nstick to that car all season.
The remaining cars are avaliable for the reserve drivers.

In my mind this would equal the grid out somewhat but the chances are the fast guys would still win, just make it more of a challenge for them.

Probably a daft idea 

[Jeffrey]

With all these ideas we need Einstein to keep it up .
There shouldn't be too many rules to make the fast guys slower.
If mosr cars are picked and I'm left with a Elite, I'd rather not drive than do. In the real season ofcourse, not the test season because that is purely for that...testing and not achievements.

[greg130]

Maybe I should have put ' competetive cars '
No one in the right mind would try to compete in an Elite, unless you were trying to come last.

Anyway it was just a thought, didnt expect it to be implemented and your'e right I wouldnt want to see the fast guys made uncompetetive, wouldnt be any point in racing then.

[Dave 'Gizmo' Gymer]

Whilst this discussion is very interesting, bear in mind that my starting point will be to implement the simplest possible system and see what the S0 scores look like with it. Any scheme which involves registering car choices or tracking changes race to race will be well down my list of possible implementations.

[Paul968]

I hadn't expected either to pose too big a problem for the scoring system, especially option 2 which needs no registration. You need to know the car for each race anyway, and its a simple search back to to see if the last car used was different. Having said that, you are doing the work, so maybe I should shut up    I think it would be a shame not to have such a system tho - I never liked the idea that people could freely take the most appropriate car as to me a car's character includes it's weaknesses.

[Iain]

i was thinking a multiplier system would go like...

any points the GT40 drivers earn, are multiplied by say 0.6

and any points an elite driver earns, are multiplied by say 5 (lol)

and all the other cars are judged inbetween.

maybe different mulitpliers per track

maybe my idea is way too complicated


hehe