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  • S22PSC Salzburgring: April 27, 2012
April 27, 2012, 09:37:06 PM +0100 - Salzburgring - UKGPL Season 22 (2011-2012) Porsche
Driver
 Team
Nat. Make Model Class Qualifying Race
Tyres Pos Time/Gap Pos Time/Gap Laps Stops Best Retirement
reason
Ballast
Ron-C
 Super Cup NVRacing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 2 +0.061
120.680mph
1 57:03.809
118.996mph
43 1:18.775
120.278mph
Dunlop  
Piero Mercaldo
 Squadra Padova Corse
Porsche 910 GT 1967 1 1:18.451
120.774mph
2 +9.674
118.661mph
43 1:18.931
120.040mph
Dunlop  
MagicArsouille
 SuperCup LOL'Team 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 4 +0.422
120.128mph
3 +14.743
118.486mph
43 1:18.850
120.163mph
Dunlop  
Roberto Teso
 Squadra Padova Corse
Porsche 910 GT 1967 6 +0.539
119.950mph
4 +31.880
117.898mph
43 1:18.912
120.069mph
Dunlop  
Cookie
 SuperCup Team Shadows
Porsche 910 GT 1967 3 +0.099
120.622mph
5 +54.614
117.128mph
43 1:19.384
119.355mph
Dunlop  
EvilClive
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 10 +1.337
118.750mph
6 +55.654
117.093mph
43 1:18.853
120.159mph
Dunlop  
natan5
 Super Cup NVRacing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 9 +1.176
118.991mph
7 +1L
117.054mph
42 1:19.699
118.883mph
Dunlop  
blito
 SuperCup Team Shadows
Porsche 910 GT 1967 17 +3.221
116.011mph
8 +2L
112.048mph
41 1:21.286
116.562mph
Dunlop  
JonnyO
 Team Coyote
Porsche 910 GT 1967 18 +3.318
115.874mph
9 +0.765
112.024mph
41 1:21.265
116.592mph
Dunlop  
Rainier
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 1
Porsche 910 GT 1967 13 +1.537
118.454mph
10 +8L
102.680mph
35 1:27.324
108.502mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Phil Thornton
 SuperCup Pastit Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 16 +2.449
117.118mph
11 +33L
107.987mph
10 1:22.959
114.211mph
Disco
Dunlop  
francesco
 SuperCup Pastit Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 19 +5.019
113.512mph
12 +35L
108.411mph
8 1:22.647
114.643mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Alex Barresi
 SuperCup 7Porsche7
Porsche 910 GT 1967 5 +0.423
120.127mph
13 +39L
116.290mph
4 1:19.848
118.661mph
accident
Dunlop  
Baab
 SuperCup Hiki-Waza 2
Porsche 910 GT 1967 14 +1.584
118.384mph
14 +40L
104.723mph
3 1:26.600
109.410mph
Disco
Dunlop  
Arf Arf Arf
 SuperCup Pastit Porsche
Porsche 910 GT 1967 7 +0.722
119.673mph
15 +3.986
103.207mph
3 1:21.074
116.867mph
Disco
Dunlop  
clouds
 SuperCup Team Shadows
Porsche 910 GT 1967 8 +0.811
119.539mph
16 +43L
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
Marco Mercaldo
 Squadra Padova Corse
Porsche 910 GT 1967 11 +1.457
118.572mph
17
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
Ronniepeterson
 Clark-Hill Racing
Porsche 910 GT 1967 12 +1.491
118.522mph
18
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
Pedro vd Berg
 SuperCup 7Porsche7
Porsche 910 GT 1967 15 +2.418
117.163mph
19
---
0 ---
---
Disco
Dunlop  
2 UKGPL_T7
 
Porsche 910 GT 1967 20 20 DNS ---
---
Dunlop  

Moderator's Report

Incident packed and possibly a few road rage incidents....

Some of the drivers were very busy in the Stewards room. It would be better for all if we could try and give some respect.

Couple of incidents in qually - which is unusual but we do not apply the same standards in qualification as we do to the race - nothing doing there.

In general terms, it is not worth reporting anything where you have been blocked unless the car in front is weaving. Difficult not to weave on a track like this.

Lots of incidents reported but not much actual contact.

I think that some of the reports were unhelpful and there seems to be a small feud brewing. All drivers are reminded that we expect drivers to conduct themselves in a gentlemanly manner. If in doubt, back off and if somebody does something wrong, report it and we'll deal with it.

Close racing but let's keep things calm boys...


Server replay time: 0h00m04s

Roberto gets a good run on Tristan but Magic closes the door late. Roberto does well to back off. Good hard racing.


Server replay time: 0h00m22s

Alex gets a good start and slips between Tris and Cookie. As they enter the first corner Alex jinks left which is extremely alarming from Tristan's POV. He brakes and is a little compromised.

Alex had the pass and was within his rights but a gentler move to the left would have been more helpful to Tristan.

Behind them Clouds loses it somewhat under brakes and collects Evil who in this case should be named Innocent. Sadly carnage ensues and several drivers are caught up but that was all follow on.

This could have all been easily avoided.

Drivers are reminded that on full tanks and cold tyres, sharp moves are inherently risky and should certainly be avoided at T1, even if you have the skill to pull it off!!!


Server replay time: 0h03m50s

Cookie leaves the door open and loses some control, Tristan aims for the gap but they come together as Cookie pushes back towards the apex.


Server replay time: 0h05m03s

Roberto feels that Tristan is blocking him but Tristan doesn't make it easy to get past and he doesn't weave so although Roberto got a better exit, he couldn't make the pass so is obligated to back off - that is racing.


Server replay time: 0h22m50s

Tris gets a good run on Piero and looks to pass into a diminishing gap as Piero moves left. This is the classic example where the lead driver needs to be cautious about closing the door as the car following is in his blind spot. As with Diamante and Spa this could have been avoided with more co-operative driving.


Server replay time: 0h23m49s

Tris is still following Piero and leaves his braking late, because he gets onto the grass he manages to clip Piero from behind. Whilst it is clear that Tristan did not intend to hit Piero and gave the place back immediately, he is at fault here.

The rules have this: "The victim made no mistakes and was driving their normal line at normal speed. The shunter had lost control on the approach to the braking zone and consequently braked later than intended."

As Tristan gave the place straight back, I am going to mitigate the penalty.

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Author Topic: UKGPL Season 22 (2011-2012) Porsche - Salzburgring - Apr 27  (Read 8755 times)
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clouds
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« Reply #15 on: April 27, 2012, 11:09:48 PM +0100 »

First of all I have to say a thing. I watched out the replay because I was one of the first driver to end the race almost before to begin it. At T1L my car had a strange movement (never had such a movement before) so I thought maybe a driver have touched me and instead...my replay told me the crash was due to me so I have to give my apologies to the drivers from 8th position down to the last one (in other words, who was behind me on the starting grid).
This year has been a disaster for me. I hope next year will be better (and it is not much difficult to achieve this goal).

P.S.: If I can say a thing, I appreciated there were all strong drivers on only one server. The brake bug tortured me all the way before and during this event and maybe only now I got rid about this problem.
Congratulation to the podium and to my team mates Axel and Jason, all points Team Shadows have, are coming from both them.  clap
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 12:34:29 AM +0100 by clouds » Logged

Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

...Houston, we've had a problem here!

Jack Swigert, April 13rd, 1970. Apollo 13 on the way to the moon.
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« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2012, 10:30:13 AM +0100 »

Sergio - what is this brake bug you've been referring to?

I ask because I'm still trying to work out what happened to me last night. By the pure luck of starting on the left hand side of the grid I managed to avoid the carnage on L1, and stayed with the lucky ones who got away. However it all went wrong on L2;

Firstly, coming into the hairpin, I braked - but mid way through the braking I had the sensation that I wasn't going to stop. In the end I did go a bit wide but got round and headed off up the top straight. However at the end of it, again I had the sensation that I wasn't going to make it, and sadly this time I was right - I hit the inside fence at quite a speed, and took my front left off. Knowing that there had been a bit shunt on L1, but not having seen anyone disconnect, I tried to drive my 3-wheeler round for a while to see if I could steal some better points for the team (assuming others were about to retire), but it very quickly became apparent that this wasn't a great idea and I retired just after the pits.

Of course, both these incidents could have been down to me misjudging the draft, or just plain missing my braking point, but that wasn't what it felt like at the time, so I'm interested to know what Sergio's brake bug is to see if it might have anything to do with what I experienced - it just felt like the brakes weren't doing anything very briefly (but enough to cause a disaster). Can't say I've noticed this feeling before.

Congrats to the podium, whoever you are. Commiserations to the victims.... Special congrats to Cookie for Q3 - is this a favourite track, or have you become an alien??  laugh

Nice to see a full server for a change - well done to the mods for the (sad but correct) decision to use one server.

Arf

« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 10:31:57 AM +0100 by Arf Arf Arf » Logged
EvilClive
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« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2012, 11:17:04 AM +0100 »

Immediately after the fracas at T1 last night, and throughout the race I wondered if I was responsible for the mass pile up that saw many forced to retire.

I was so concerned throughout the race that it might have been me that I actually remembered to save the replay, something I normally NEVER do.

This morning I watched the incident again and was relieved to see that it was not an error on my part.  whistling

I got a good start from somewhere like 8th or 9th on the grid and used the draft behind Clouds ( I think?) to get close to his tail. We were both on the right hand side of the grid and as long as we stayed that side of the track we should have the inside line around the hairpin. My intention was to tuck in behind him and make sure that no-one could dive in between us before T3.
As we took the first right hand kink he suddenly seemed to lose speed, so a quick check of prib/mirror and a look left and I eased out into an empty space in  centre of the tarmac and my momentum quickly carried me alongside and put Clouds into my blind spot. I thought that I should be almost past him and it was as I tried to ease into the left turn that I felt a slight contact and my car was spun to the right and off onto the (very wet grass). By the time I had slithered to a stop and turned it around there were cars everywhere although mine was undamaged.
OOPs! I though "was that me??"  Shocked

I rejoined the race and slowly made my way up to 5th place at the end after Natan discovered the braking bug on the final lap and gifted me his place.  scooter( more about my views on the bug below)

On watching the replay it looks like Clouds put a rear wheel wheel on the grass just as I passed him and that twitched his car to the left, which  clipped my rear and spun me around. I left the track at high speed and cleared the way for the carnage that ensued. If he had not made that small accidental error that sent him across the track, I think everything would have been much less dramatic.


BRAKING BUG..my thoughts...............

The notorious "brake bug" is something that a lot of us have become victims of in the GT's. Almost everyone was complaining about it when the mod was released but gradually many have evolved setups and driving techniques to reduce its effect.

What you describe would fit what many of us have experienced.  You approach a corner at high speed and know you are going to do some heavy braking. In any of the other mods (65,66,67 or 69) you would expect to stand on the brake pedal, either to scrub off the speed and make the corner, or lock up the wheels and go straight on in a cloud of tyre smoke.
But, in these GT cars it seems that you can get something that feels like sudden brake failure, such that the car refuses to slow down and the steering feels ineffective.?? I guess that is what you discovered last night? The point in the braking zone at which this kicks in seems to be very critical and once initiated it almost always ends in a trip to the scenery.

I have not come across any info from the developers of the GT mod, but I wonder if they tried to simulate the effect of the extra weight of these cars under braking.This brake bug seems worse with the Mk4 GT Ford than with the Porsche IMHO, but that might be just my imagination Roll Eyes .
The nearest comaprison I can offer within GPL, is what you get in the 67 mod if you have your suspension set too soft and it bottoms out. Something that most of us have experienced at the bottom of the dip at Mosport? the car just seems to lose all control and plough straight on.

Some of us have discovered that to reduce or overcome this "braking bug" the GT cars need to run with much stiffer suspension, bump and rebound settings, which strangely enough the setup page allows ( maybe a clue there?). Also, I have found that your braking technique needs to adapt for the GT's. In most of the open wheeled mods you can be pretty brutal with the brakes and suffer no consequence, but with a GT car I find that to get the optimum braking you really have to "feel" the brakes and avoid any possibility of a locked wheel. Demon late braking is a very risky move because of this "bug".
So a very smooth and gently progressive braking action to ease off the speed, is far more reliable and effective. Also I try and get OFF the brakes before I attempt any turn in ( something that is not 100% necessary in open wheeled cars).

So, although it has been labelled "the GT braking bug" I am not convinced that it is a flaw in the software, but rather something that makes the GT's a little more interesting to drive and possibly an attempt to reflect the extra weight of these cars when you are trying to stop from close to 200mph?
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« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2012, 11:18:06 AM +0100 »

Yes Arf, you seem to have experienced this "brake bug"...
Under heavy bracking sometimes the front wheels just lock and and stay locked, you slide forewards with no control.

Thanks for the compliment!
I do love those tracks with sweeping fast corners but it was my first race here.
The team work with Sergio made me better in setting up my car and I found a perfect setup for quali and race.

I knew a good tow would be essential in quali to get a good time and I got one pretty early, but Piero and Ron did so too a little later...
We were within 99/1000 of a sec  Grin

My start was ok so I did the first 3 laps in 4th position with Tristan following close.
In the Semperit hairpin we had a touch that left me on the roof...
I had mentaly finished the race, when the car suddenly turned over and was back on his wheels  Shocked
No damage but some places lost.
First I had to catch Arf who helped me going a little wide and then I was in the chase of Natan with Clive in a yet save distance following.
This was a great battle with Natan for several laps, he fought fair for his position but I finaly succeeded to pass.
After this I made a little gap that gave me the chance to keep Clive in save distance.
I knew he wouldn't  have an easy pass too...
The last laps I made in save mode and just controlled the distance to Clive to cross the line 1 sec in front of him.

One of my best races I ever made!

THANKS



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Axel "Cookie"

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« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2012, 11:40:53 AM +0100 »

a special thanks to those  caused the T1 Accident, and all those  have crashed my my car. I have not seen the replay yet. necessary should be cautious in the first lap, but somebody dont care about this
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clouds
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« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2012, 12:01:09 PM +0100 »

Brake bug have had some explanations that are all right but the one it seems pretty the same of mine is the one of Axel. At final I've found that bug (at least in my case) was due to...deflated tires, that means I didn't take care about the pressure of my tires and this just to have a temperature gradient almost uniform across the tire contact surface. I didn't understand why also getting a tow from Axel I could not close on him along the straights while there were parts of the track in which I was clearly faster than everyone (fast corners) except one, the infamous T3L in which I was experimenting the brake bug 5 times out of 10 in every of the tens different setups I've tried. The response was simpler than expected, I had to inflate the tires because they were too much deflated! And...that's all folks !!!
About my accident I only can say, I passed through the same place tens of times without any problem but this only time (maybe because of could tires or I cannot say what either) the car has begun to wave not out of control and immediately after the kink the little jump made bad things got worst making me loosing control and...so on.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 12:15:17 PM +0100 by clouds » Logged

Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

...Houston, we've had a problem here!

Jack Swigert, April 13rd, 1970. Apollo 13 on the way to the moon.
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« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2012, 12:26:27 PM +0100 »

So, although it has been labelled "the GT braking bug" I am not convinced that it is a flaw in the software,

There is sadly, a flaw in the software, which causes the brake bug, to sometimes bite in these GT's.  It's weight related, so removing their motors might help.  Other ways to unlock the problem have been discussed, amongst the community.

It's not widely known or considered, how many parameters there are to work with, in GPL physics.  It's a complex package, and amazingly realistic in it's modeling!  And that's allowed the realistic creation of all these amazing mods.  But running heavier cars, was not originally intended, and along the way we've leaned, that even GPL physice are not perfect.  Future mods should not suffer the same symptom. hammer
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Rainier
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« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2012, 01:37:12 PM +0100 »

a special thanks to those  caused the T1 Accident, and all those  have crashed my my car. I have not seen the replay yet. necessary should be cautious in the first lap, but somebody dont care about this

I took a very careful start and let 2 or 3 cars overtook me before turn 1... but it was not enough !
I saw the "carnage" and several cars flying in the air, so I brake hardly and one of the following car, I think it was Piero Mercaldo's car, torpedoed (I like this word I just learnt, thanks to this forum Smiley ) me !
Hopefully I could continue the race ...but very slowly (my best lap in race was 1'27/1'28, against 1'19''99 during qualify).

I hope I was not a trouble when other cars took me one lap and more, I made half the race on the grass to allow them to overtook me without any risk Smiley

With 19 cars and on such a narrow track, I think the best would have been a rolling start (if not for a complete lap, at least until the exit of the hairpin).   
 
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maddog
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« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2012, 02:12:07 PM +0100 »

When Porsche races cause constant carnage, a one reset rule should be considered, on the mid-Season thread.
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clouds
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« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2012, 02:26:03 PM +0100 »

Yes...rolling starts for all the 1st lap could be a solution also for me. I love normal starts but...if this is a problem, we have to think to something better.
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Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

...Houston, we've had a problem here!

Jack Swigert, April 13rd, 1970. Apollo 13 on the way to the moon.
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« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2012, 03:38:38 PM +0100 »

personally I think rolling starts would solve a lot of our t1 problems in all our divisions and leagues!
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Jason Blito
clouds
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« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2012, 04:21:25 PM +0100 »

So, although it has been labelled "the GT braking bug" I am not convinced that it is a flaw in the software,

There is sadly, a flaw in the software, which causes the brake bug, to sometimes bite in these GT's.  It's weight related, so removing their motors might help.  Other ways to unlock the problem have been discussed, amongst the community.

It's not widely known or considered, how many parameters there are to work with, in GPL physics. It's a complex package, and amazingly realistic in it's modeling!  And that's allowed the realistic creation of all these amazing mods. But running heavier cars, was not originally intended, and along the way we've leaned, that even GPL physice are not perfect. Future mods should not suffer the same symptom. hammer

Reliability of a simulation model is very important and unfortunately this of GT's cars is not! The GP mod is out since a few years and nothig has been done on a known infamous bug.  Tongue Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: April 28, 2012, 04:23:15 PM +0100 by clouds » Logged

Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

...Houston, we've had a problem here!

Jack Swigert, April 13rd, 1970. Apollo 13 on the way to the moon.
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« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2012, 07:28:19 PM +0100 »

The trouble with trying to fix the Gt's brakes, is that as soon as a change is made, it's likely to affect other parameters.  You then have a different mod.   And it wouldn't be a simple job, so would've take time away from future mod work.  It's not ideal, but a good racing driver adapts. Wink

While I'm here, it's worth mentioning that rolling starts, at Ukgpl were adopted for GT's, mainly because the Chaparrals clutch is weird, and unrealistic Shocked  Porsche's don't have that problem. 
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clouds
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« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2012, 09:24:22 PM +0100 »

Uhm...many mods have been built without this problem so...why GT's cars have this sort of problems ?
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Sergio "Clouds" Lonzar

...Houston, we've had a problem here!

Jack Swigert, April 13rd, 1970. Apollo 13 on the way to the moon.
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« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2012, 10:31:24 PM +0100 »

The GT's are heavier than single seaters, and the symptoms were new, and unexpected.  I also suspect the pay cheques were insufficient, though I wasn't on the GT mod payroll . Roll Eyes
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